Newbie36 Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Hi everyone, I am going to be a first time hot tub owner in the not-too-distant future. I have been doing my homework, as the entire process is new to me. My question concerns the electrical draw. My house is a small ranch style home, built in 1952. I have 100amp circuit breaker service. Will I have any issues tripping the breakers when the tub is running? Running on electricity are central A/C, stove/oven, microwave, dehumidifier in basement, hot water tank, washer/dryer. Obviously I have other things like TVs, computers, toaster oven. The central air of course will not be on other than summer. I can't envision a scenario where EVERYTHING will be going at the same time. I really can't afford replacing my 100amp service with 200amp service. Will I be ok with what I have? Does anyone have a similar arrangement? Should I be concerned about this? After all the research I've done and being so close to finally pulling the trigger, I'd hate for this to be an issue. By the way - the tub I am leaning toward is the Limelight Pulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Without know how much amperage each of the large appliances pulls, it's not really possibly to say. However, it's not unlikely that the oven and water heater will be running at the same time. Add in the microwave......well, I'd make a wager you're going to have problems with a 100 amp service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Tubber Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Yes, Dr.Spa is right, you really need to do a load demand calculation. If you plan on running your tub in the summer then it is not altogether impossible that you could have it, A/C, hot water tank, oven/range, dryer, and microwave on at once, though perhaps unlikely. Not sure how it is determined in the US, but in Canada we have a section in our electrical code book that walks a person through calculating demands and breaker sizing based upon determined demand, I'm sure it is done very similarily, if not exactly the same in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arches2 Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 you won't trip individual breakers, you'll trip the main power breaker. Sounds like your 100 amp is already overloaded before you add the spa. I would not recommend adding a 220v 50 amp spa to that mix. do you even have a spot left in your panel for a 50 amp breaker? If you already have a sub-panel, i think you know the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOWEM Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Worse case you'll trip the 50a breaker for the tub not the main. If you do use it in the summmer when your ac is on I would shut the ac breaker off while your using your tub. If you can afford a tub and not changing out your service from a 100 to a 200a then with all due respect I think you have your priorities messed up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Tubber Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Pretty sure he'd trip the main breaker before the 50A breaker on the hot tub, would he not? I agree though, the hot tub would almost certainly cost more than upgrading the electrical service, and should be done prior to buying the tub if demand calculations show it is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Worse case you'll trip the 50a breaker for the tub not the main. If you do use it in the summmer when your ac is on I would shut the ac breaker off while your using your tub. If you can afford a tub and not changing out your service from a 100 to a 200a then with all due respect I think you have your priorities messed up? I'm sorry, but almost ALL of this information is incorrect. You would NOT trip the breaker for the tub! We're talking about overloading the entire system ,which would trip the MAIN breaker. Breakers should not be used regularly as disconnect switches (they're not designed for this, and would wear out quite prematurely doing so)...not to mention, what a PITA it would be. Additionally, I've seen where upgrading the main panel from 100amp to 200amp can run from $2000 - $3500. I can easily see being able to afford a spa, but NOT, when there's an additional $2000+ needed to upgrade the main panel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Worse case you'll trip the 50a breaker for the tub not the main. If you do use it in the summmer when your ac is on I would shut the ac breaker off while your using your tub. If you can afford a tub and not changing out your service from a 100 to a 200a then with all due respect I think you have your priorities messed up? I'm sorry, but almost ALL of this information is incorrect. You would NOT trip the breaker for the tub! We're talking about overloading the entire system ,which would trip the MAIN breaker. Breakers should not be used regularly as disconnect switches (they're not designed for this, and would wear out quite prematurely doing so)...not to mention, what a PITA it would be. Additionally, I've seen where upgrading the main panel from 100amp to 200amp can run from $2000 - $3500. I can easily see being able to afford a spa, but NOT, when there's an additional $2000+ needed to upgrade the main panel Yea but if your incoming main wires are sized right adding an auxiliary panel and secondary main breaker just to handle the extra load of the tub can be a lot less. Have your local electrician come in and take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryker709 Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Depending on the draw of the spa you plan on getting (keep in mind that many brands can be hooked up for lower current draws, mine can be set for 40, 50, or 60amps) I would say that you "should" be fine with your 100 amp service. As many have pointed out, the only risk you run is tripping your main breaker. If it does happen, it will most likely happen in the summer when you are running your AC. Just running your hot tub, range, and hot water tank shouldn't be an issue. If your house is built in the 50's and there hasn't been a recent panel upgrade, then with out looking at your panel I would think it is quite likely that you don't currently have space in it for a 2 pole 50 amp breaker. Most of the electrical panel service upgrades that I do are due to an older house getting a hot tub and not having enough room for another 2 pole breaker. Depending on how bad it is, I have charged anywhere from $1000 up to $3500. The reason for the big price range is that when upgrading the service, there may be other code issues uncovered. Sometimes the feed coming into the mast turns out to be too low and involves raising the mast up through the roof to meet code, so it's really hard to say without looking what it will cost you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie36 Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 For what its worth, our panel was updated about 7 years ago and I was told there is room in our panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryker709 Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Well that's a good thing for sure! I would say you should be fine if it calls for say a 2 pole 40 amp feed, and may have cause for concern if you are getting up to a 2 pole 60 amp feed. Check the draw on the tub and like I said, many manufacturers leave you the option of setting it at a range between 40 and 60 amps. It will just change how the tub operates, ie, the heater will only run when only the circ pump is on in the lower setting or something along that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 This past Friday we installed a 240V-60amp spa on a 100w panel that had room. We did have an initial electrician consult if we should just install the 60a spa disconnect panel ($650 with 50 feet of copper, not including panel) or upgrade to 200a service ($1800+$650+panel) The electrician told us that as long as we didn't use the dishwasher, oven, microwave, or AC when the spa was running we should be ok. Over the weekend the main breaker tripped twice while running the spa (2 pumps on high + 5.5kw heater = 53amps according the the user manual). It tripped in the house, and not at the spa disconnect panel. We will change out the breaker at the house this week to see if that is the problem, but I suspect that we will need a panel upgrade to fully utilize this spa. Our short term solution would be to change the spa from 60a operation to 40a setting which does limit the heater to function only when pump one is at low speed and pump two is off. By my own calculation at 40amp we would only possibly have a problem if more than 1 of the earlier mentioned appliances was running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOWEM Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Worse case you'll trip the 50a breaker for the tub not the main. If you do use it in the summmer when your ac is on I would shut the ac breaker off while your using your tub. If you can afford a tub and not changing out your service from a 100 to a 200a then with all due respect I think you have your priorities messed up? I'm sorry, but almost ALL of this information is incorrect. You would NOT trip the breaker for the tub! We're talking about overloading the entire system ,which would trip the MAIN breaker. Breakers should not be used regularly as disconnect switches (they're not designed for this, and would wear out quite prematurely doing so)...not to mention, what a PITA it would be. Additionally, I've seen where upgrading the main panel from 100amp to 200amp can run from $2000 - $3500. I can easily see being able to afford a spa, but NOT, when there's an additional $2000+ needed to upgrade the main panel With all do respect your figures are way off! Your figures on a new service upgrade are before the economy went south! The odds of all those heavy loads, dryer,stove,ac,water heater running at peak load is low. To be honest if he has all of those now I'm surprised he hasn't had problems already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Most of the electrical panel service upgrades that I do are due to an older house getting a hot tub and not having enough room for another 2 pole breaker. Depending on how bad it is, I have charged anywhere from $1000 up to $3500. Over the weekend the main breaker tripped twice while running the spa (2 pumps on high + 5.5kw heater = 53amps according the the user manual). It tripped in the house, and not at the spa disconnect panel. With all do respect your figures are way off! Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 The only person that can properly address this question is a "Qualified" electrician who is "On Site". The fact that the main breaker has tripped twice clearly indicates that there IS a problem with the service. Correct me if i'm wrong, but a service upgrade requires a permit! This mandates that EVERYTHING has to be brought up to present code regardless of when the house was built. With a newer house it may be as simple as replacing the pannel and changing a few feet of wire to the meter. The incomming feed on older houses usually requires substantial more work to meet code for 200A. Only a qualified "On Site" accessment can determine the work involved and therefore the cost, but I'd be willing to bet that it won't be cheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just to clarify, by "main breaker" I meant the 60amp breaker in the main panel that feeds the spa panel, not the whole house. Everything was done by a "Qualified" licensed electrician to code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just to clarify, by "main breaker" I meant the 60amp breaker in the main panel that feeds the spa panel, not the whole house. Everything was done by a "Qualified" licensed electrician to code. OK Thats a different "Kettle of Fish". So the Main Breaker is NOT tripping but the "Sub" breaker for the tub IS Is that breaker a GFI? or is the GFI in the Spa Panel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Regular breaker, the GFI is in the Spa Panel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 GFI is in the Spa Panel If the CGFI is NOT tripping then that basically rules out the possibility of a ground fault.. Just to make sure, this may seem like a dumb suggestion but verify that the GFI is working properly by pressing the "Test" button and make sure it does disconnect. If both breakers are 60A and the same one keeps tripping it may be defective. But there is also a problem in that you say the tub is drawing 53A so by the 125% rule the breaker needs to be capable of 67A I recommend that you talk to your electrician and have him double check everything. It may be as simple as a loose connection at the breaker but could be as serious as a problem within the wire run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yes the GFCI is tested and working properly. I will definitely have the electrician back out this week. More likely it is a problem with my electrical math. 2 pumps rated at 15amps + 5.5Kw heater (240V/5500w =23 amps) = 53 amps if all running at high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOWEM Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I changed my service from 100a to a 200a no permit. A service change in my area is you start at the weather head,meter socket,panel and everything in between.The service needs to be up to the new code but not the whole house doesn't!! All your branch circuits that leave that panel is a seperate issue. You start at upgrading your service and start from there. So just to be clear the branch breaker (tub) and not the main breaker(100) tripped like I said from the beginning. Have a good one and good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Electrician came out last night. Some miscommunication with his partner had resulted in the tub being installed on the old electric dryer breaker, which was supposed to be replaced with a new 60 amp. Replaced with the new 60amp breaker. Didn't get a chance to run the tub last night at full power for an extended period, but I will tonight. Crossing fingers that this solves the problem and I can keep 60a tub on my 100a service! Will update tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accely Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Electrician came out last night. Some miscommunication with his partner had resulted in the tub being installed on the old electric dryer breaker, which was supposed to be replaced with a new 60 amp. Replaced with the new 60amp breaker. Didn't get a chance to run the tub last night at full power for an extended period, but I will tonight. Crossing fingers that this solves the problem and I can keep 60a tub on my 100a service! Will update tomorrow. looking forward to update! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rin-spa-aic Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ran last night with no issues. 2 pumps on high, heater, air blower, lights for over 5 minutes with no issue. 2 pumps on high, heater, and lights for more than 30 minutes with no issues. The whole time the house was at normal electrical usage + a 1400w appliance was running. Fingers crossed, but I think it's all set! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accely Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ran last night with no issues. 2 pumps on high, heater, air blower, lights for over 5 minutes with no issue. 2 pumps on high, heater, and lights for more than 30 minutes with no issues. The whole time the house was at normal electrical usage + a 1400w appliance was running. Fingers crossed, but I think it's all set! Good news! This is the same setup I will be doing soon with a new home in November. 100amp service as well. Are your stove and dryer gas or electric? Currently they have an electric dryer installed but I think I'm going to go with a gas dryer to lessen the electrial load. Now I'm only left wondering, could I still be ok with an electric stove or should I keep the stove gas as well... any thoughts? thanks Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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