Spabalancer Experience

[Rob Holland]

In Dec. 2010 I have ask if there was any expiriences with SpaBalancer?

Now I can write hereby my own experience with SpaBalancer:

After two years of using Chloride treatment there was a development of skin problems "Eczema" on my arms, legs and back. On advice of my doctor I was not able to use anymore my spa with Cl products. So I was looking on the internet if there where was a replacement products on the market and find SpaBalancer. From the discussion on PoolSpaForum I have received a free bottle of 750mL SpaBalancer to try if this was better for my skin problems then chloride products.

In Jan.2011 I have clean my spa with spa cleaner "Maxus" and did a refill and start with SpaBalancer. Till now I have the following experience with using SpaBalancer:

- The water don't smell any more.

- My skin problems are disappeared.

- Soft skin

- Dosses first 4 weeks 75mL per week en then 50mL per week.

- pH is stable 7.8-8.0

- No water change every 3 months.

- No water checks and no optimizing of chloride levels.

- Filters are a little bit brown but easy to remove with a chloride solution.

At this moment I am really satisfied with using SpaBalancer. I don't know the composition of this product only I know it works!!

So I can recommend SpaBalancer.

[chem geek]

More info here.

Do you have an ozonator?

Their FAQ states the following:

Do I need an ozonator for the SpaBalancer to function?

Although SpaBalancer would work without an ozonator, we always recommend the use of an ozonator, because this technology is proven and very safe and efficient in killing microorganisms.

This is because their technology does not kill bacteria so they refer to ozonators that do, but ozone will only kill bacteria passing through the ozonator and will not kill bacteria growing on surfaces, for example. In fact, their FAQ also says the following:

I have been using SpaBalancer for two months. A slimy layer has developed at the surface of the whirlpool tub. What is it and what can I do about it?

It is a biofilm. A biofilm can develop from time to time. If you have an older whirlpool, which had already been treated with other disinfectants, you could have biofilm in the pipes. Biofilm is a colony of bacteria that is resistant to disinfectants. SpaBalancer dissolves this colony slowly but surely. This allows the biofilm to reach the spa room and settle on the walls. Sometimes this is also the case in a new hot tub. This is due to residual water in the pipes, which is from the factory test fill. This phenomenon can appear even at a very high load.

In this case, we recommend the shock treatment of water using an inorganic chlorine without stabiliser. The chlorine will be completely removed after one to two days. Use the SpaBalancer once again only if the chlorine level is at 0 ppm. Otherwise, the two agents would neutralise their effects.

So their system may allow biofilm formation though they also claim to dissolve the colony slowly.

I'm glad it's working out for you, but not having a disinfectant in the water does increase statistical risk. At least if their system were some combination of silver/copper ions then uncontrolled bacterial growth would be prevented even though the kill time would be slow, but there is no indication of anything in their system that inhibits bacterial growth other than possibly removing some mineral nutrients from the water though that is unclear. Since they say they also work without an ozonator, then they should have some sort of enzymes to catalyze oxidation of bather waste -- otherwise you will end up soaking in your own sweat and urine.

The SpaBalancer safety data sheet only lists sodium hydrogensulphate (i.e. sodium bisulfate or dry acid) and calcium sulfate (i.e. a calcium hardness increaser). There are no doubt other ingredients, but are not required to be listed in the safety data sheet.

[Rob Holland]

Indeed I use an ozonator. But still I don't know the other ingredients which are used but the water is nice clear and without any other odour then water. So the secret componets works.

[waterbear]

clear water does not equal sanitized water. water borne illnesses are nothing to play around with.

period.

[chem geek]

So the secret componets works.

If they really worked to be a disinfectant, then they would have passed EPA DIS/TSS-12, but they didn't. There are only 4 chemical systems approved by the EPA for spas that pass DIS/TSS-12 so can be called disinfectants: chlorine, bromine, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, and Nature2 (silver/zinc) with MPS (non-chlorine shock). With anything else, you take varying amounts of increased risk depending on what you use.

By the way, in Germany, the home of SpaBalancer, the standard is DIN 19643 which, again, SpaBalancer would not be able to meet because it simply does not kill bacteria quickly enough.

[footie]

clear water does not equal sanitized water. water borne illnesses are nothing to play around with.

period.

Death from legionaires disease

No more needs to be said.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

clear water does not equal sanitized water. water borne illnesses are nothing to play around with.

period.

Death from legionaires disease

No more needs to be said.

Dont forget Cryto, which has killed several children and has had huge outbreaks at public swim areas.....I dont think dry acid and calcium hardness increaser will kill it since chlorine has a hard time killing it except in high doses for long periods of time.

[waterbear]

In addition to Legionnaire's Disease and cryptosporidium (once thought to only infect sheep, who were put to sleep when infected, and AIDS patients, where it becomes chronic and usually kills in 3 t 6 months and can also infect the lungs, pancreas and stomach) let us not forget Mycobacterium aviumcomplex (MAC) which cases hot tub lung (a disease that can cause permanent lung damage) and pseudomonsas that causes hot tub itch (very common water borne illnesses. There is are also the enteric water borne illnesses that care caused by fecal matter such as Giardia and E. coli that can be and are transmitted in hot tubs.

No matter how clean someone thinks they are (and even if they shower beforehand) EVERY BATHER INTRODUCES FECAL MATTER, URINE, AND SWEAT INTO THE SMALL VOLUME OF HOT WATER IN A TUB AND BACTERIA GROW VERY QUICKLY IN THE HOT WATER!

Let me repeat that:

EVERY BATHER INTRODUCES FECAL MATTER, URINE, AND SWEAT INTO THE SMALL VOLUME OF HOT WATER IN A TUB AND BACTERIA GROW VERY QUICKLY IN THE HOT WATER!

I'll say it one more time just in case someone didn't 'get it' the first two time:

EVERY BATHER INTRODUCES FECAL MATTER, URINE, AND SWEAT INTO THE SMALL VOLUME OF HOT WATER IN A TUB AND BACTERIA GROW VERY QUICKLY IN THE HOT WATER!

CLEAR WATER DOES NOT EQUAL SANTIZED WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[footie]

Sorry Waterbear, what did you say cause I didn't quite hear you there.

It not only highlights the importance of maintaining a decent amount of sanitizer on a daily basis but also can't be stressed the importance of stocking on a weekly basis and replacing the water every 3-4 months. Your health is worth far more than the few $$$$ and time it takes to look after your water.

[bdubya200]

Do you guys disnfect your shower heads? How about your kitchen or bathroom faucets? Washing machine supply line?

[Dr. Spa]

As my water supply is chlorinated, yes I do. But, this has nothing to do with a contained body of water that is recirculated for months, that I and other people soak in, over and over and over, excreting FECAL MATTER, URINE, AND SWEAT INTO, along with introducing various bacterias and viruses.

[bdubya200]

I guess I should have mentioned ' on a non city/municipal supply" such as a spring or a well whenre no such chlorine/sanitizer exists. Bacteria can sit in those pipes for YEARS.

[chem geek]

I guess I should have mentioned ' on a non city/municipal supply" such as a spring or a well whenre no such chlorine/sanitizer exists. Bacteria can sit in those pipes for YEARS.

The analogy with a spa would be closer if you were to add some of your fecal matter (which supplies both new fecal bacteria and nutrients) to that water supply and heat it up to a nice toasty 90-100ºF temperature (which dramatically increases reproduction rates) and wait a day or so. Then see what it is like to shower in that water. A spa is more like a bath except you aren't changing the water. If you don't oxidize or coagulate/filter the bather waste, then you are soaking in your own sweat and urine (mostly urea and ammonia) and the pathogens you shed (mostly bacteria including fecal bacteria) that can reproduce quickly (15-60 minutes generation time for doubling the population of bacteria -- in the extreme, 1 bacterium can become over 4 billion in 8 hours).

Now in spite of all these warnings, the fact is that even in unsanitary water most people aren't going to get sick since it's a statistical phenomenon depending both on what pathogens are present, how quickly they grow, and whether they can enter the body and whether the body's immune system gets overwhelmed. Nevertheless, the probability is dramatically higher in water that is not disinfected. I've personally contacted some of the people on this site who have contracted hot tub itch/rash as well as hot tub lung and also Legionnaire's Disease. It doesn't happen often, but it most certainly does happen (a partial list, since I stopped keeping track at some point, is in this post though some of these may be hot water irritation).

[bdubya200]

Legionella can be found in most sources of natural water, so a water heater, warm water pipes, etc...nice spot to multiply. Hopefully theres not ( musch) urine and feces ina f esh water supply though.

[waterbear]

I guess I should have mentioned ' on a non city/municipal supply" such as a spring or a well whenre no such chlorine/sanitizer exists. Bacteria can sit in those pipes for YEARS.

I guess you missed it the first time:

CLEAR WATER DOES NOT EQUAL SANTIZED WATER!

I live in an area where many are on wells and not municipal and I have, in the past, worked in a hardware store part time where we sold a lot of well pumps and related equipment and we did sell a lot of cal hypo made for wells to sanitize the water and a lot of bacterial test kits. Wells are normally shocked to 200 ppm to sanitize them on an as needed basis as determined by testing for bacteria! Well water testing for coliform bacteria is normally done yearly or more often if there is a problem such as recent flooding or smells or slime (iron and sulfur bacteria are normally culprits here) or any repairs or construction on the well or nearby septic tank problems or repairs.

[waterbear]

Legionella can be found in most sources of natural water, so a water heater, warm water pipes, etc...nice spot to multiply.

And can be eradicated by as little as .5 ppm FC, even in hot water!

[aqua]

We did a microbiological analysis with SpaBalancer:

Microbiological analysis according to DIN 19643 laut Labor Dr.Fintelmann und Dr.Meyer GmbH

Water was 3 month old. Around 5 to 10 people were using the hot tub weekly. They didn't take a shower before. Ozonataor was switched off 4 weaks earlier. Filtering time 2 x 3 hours per day.

Coliforme Keime in 100 ml <1

(EN ISO 9308-1)

Escherichia coli in 100 ml <1

(EN ISO 9308-1)

Pseudomonas aeruginosa in 100 ml <1

(EN ISO 12780)

Legionella in 100 ml <1

(ISO 11731)

DIN 19643 is only for public use. For private hot tubs there is no regulation in Germany.

[chem geek]

So with such numbers, why don't you try and get EPA approval in the U.S. as a spa disinfectant by passing EPA DIS/TSS-12? Is it that your system is unable to kill Escherichia coli and Enterococcus faecalis (used to be called Streptococcus faecalis) with a 6-log (99.9999%) reduction in 30 seconds or less as required by the laboratory test portion of that requirement? Were those measurements taken right after people left the spa or some time later and if so, how long? So is your claim that your system will kill bacteria, but too slowly to pass the more stringent tests such as DIS/TSS-12? So it is more like a copper/silver ionization system (see this post) in terms of kill times? Your product isn't even listed as a pesticide in the PAN Database so probably doesn't have an EPA registration number either yet your results show it is killing bacteria so must be considered a pesticide, right? Or is your claim that it inhibits bacterial growth and coagulates/filters it out of the water in which case such measurements must be made with enough time for that to occur? Is your product also sold for public use using this data for DIN 19643 and if not, why not?

[aqua]

I'm really happy we are not in the Middle Ages anymore. Otherwise you would start to chase me and burn me as a witch.

It seems there is only one opinion in this forum. Somehow I thought a forum is for exchanging opinions?

First: DIN 19643 is for drinking water. We don't use chlorine to have the water desinfected. To have a private hot tub accordingly to DIN 19643 you need an overflow chanel, sandfilter, disinfection system. You have to exchange, clean and disinfect the whole water of the hot tub twice each hour. Such a plant cost about 20000 Euro which is about 28000 Dollar. So don't talk to me about DIN 19643 when you are taking some chlorine with your hand and throw it in your hot tub. This does not correspond to DIN 19643.

Second: You are talking about killing time. You are right. But only when I'm sitting with 30 strangers in one hot tub. Than, the killing time is very important. I wouldn't like to have the diseases of the other people.

But when I'm sitting in my private hot tub together with my wife and my children I don't care about killing time. The water has the whole night time to get clean. As I said: DIN 19643 is only for public hot tubs.

Third: Not all bacterias are harmful. You never should take a bath in a lake or a river. It is full of bacterias. And the bacterias help to have the lake or river clean. Your body has more bacterias than cells. I should fill you with chlorine to get rid of all the bacterias in your body. It is really not EPA approved.

I'm sorry for beeing sharp (and for abusing your language). But I think it is allowed to have an opinion. I know, I will never convince you. But looking at something from different sides is always better than claiming all people are idiots because they don't believe in EPA.

[footie]

We don't use chlorine to disinfect drinking water, are you sure about that because my drinking water from my tap reads approximately between 0.5-1ppm of chlorine.

[waterbear]

I'm really happy we are not in the Middle Ages anymore. Otherwise you would start to chase me and burn me as a witch.

It seems there is only one opinion in this forum. Somehow I thought a forum is for exchanging opinions?

It is, you are the one that is avoiding issues. We are just asking for cold facts and data that you have not provided.

First: DIN 19643 is for drinking water.

So you are comparing apples and oranges much like the ionizer folk do! (Excuse the idiom. It means that your argument is invalid) Everyone, remember this statement that he just made, it will become clear with a bit more reading!

We don't use chlorine to have the water desinfected.

What do you use to disinfect water, then?

To have a private hot tub accordingly to DIN 19643 you need an overflow chanel, sandfilter, disinfection system. You have to exchange, clean and disinfect the whole water of the hot tub twice each hour. Such a plant cost about 20000 Euro which is about 28000 Dollar. So don't talk to me about DIN 19643 when you are taking some chlorine with your hand and throw it in your hot tub. This does not correspond to DIN 19643.

Didn't you just say that DIN 19643 is for drinking water?

Second: You are talking about killing time. You are right. But only when I'm sitting with 30 strangers in one hot tub. Than, the killing time is very important. I wouldn't like to have the diseases of the other people.

So you admit the CT times (kill times) are too slow!

But when I'm sitting in my private hot tub together with my wife and my children I don't care about killing time.

Even when fecal matter THAT IS NOT YOURS is being introduced into the hot water that you are soaking in by your wife and children and the bacteria THAT ARE NOT YOURS are multiplying quickly in the hot water?

The water has the whole night time to get clean. As I said: DIN 19643 is only for public hot tubs.

Right, same as in the U.S. There is no law or rule to prevent someone from soaking in raw sewage! (see my previous statement)

(and I repeat, didn't you state that DIN 19643 is for drinking water?)

Third: Not all bacterias are harmful. Did anyone here ever say that they were?

You never should take a bath in a lake or a river. It is full of bacterias. And the bacterias help to have the lake or river clean. Your body has more bacterias than cells. I should fill you with chlorine to get rid of all the bacterias in your body. It is really not EPA approved.

What the **** are you babbling about, it makes NO sense whatsoever (and it is not a language issue. it's a 'let's deflect from the topic and cloud it up' issue)

I'm sorry for beeing sharp (and for abusing your language).

I don't think you are, not really. I think you want to confuse the issue, not substantiate your statements to try and defend your position and possibly make a profit selling "snake oil". (sorry, another idiom) This is my opinion.

But I think it is allowed to have an opinion.

Opinions ARE allowed. I just posted one in the line above.

I know, I will never convince you. But looking at something from different sides is always better than claiming all people are idiots because they don't believe in EPA.

How about if they don't believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus?

We are just asking for cold, hard facts....not opinions, beliefs, or unsubstantiated prose extolling the virtues of your product (AND with the understanding that you gain financially when the product added to a tub while I make no money when your product, chlorine, bromine, or raw fecal matter is added to a tub) with nothing to back up the claims.

[waterbear]

We don't use chlorine to disinfect drinking water, are you sure about that because my drinking water from my tap reads approximately between 0.5-1ppm of chlorine.

Must be a testing error!

[chem geek]

My comments in bold below.

I'm really happy we are not in the Middle Ages anymore. Otherwise you would start to chase me and burn me as a witch.

It seems there is only one opinion in this forum. Somehow I thought a forum is for exchanging opinions?

Let's try to be civil, OK? I was only asking questions.

First: DIN 19643 is for drinking water. We don't use chlorine to have the water desinfected. To have a private hot tub accordingly to DIN 19643 you need an overflow chanel, sandfilter, disinfection system. You have to exchange, clean and disinfect the whole water of the hot tub twice each hour. Such a plant cost about 20000 Euro which is about 28000 Dollar. So don't talk to me about DIN 19643 when you are taking some chlorine with your hand and throw it in your hot tub. This does not correspond to DIN 19643.

First of all, you are wrong about DIN 19643 being for drinking water. It is a standard used for commercial/public pools and spas in Germany with parts of that standard being similar to EPA DIS/TSS-12 in terms of the primary bulk water disinfectant (e.g. chlorine) and kill times. Specifically, the standard contains the following sub-parts:

19643-1: Treatment of the water of swimming-pools and baths - Part 1: General requirements

19643-2: Treatment of water of swimming pools and baths - Part 2: Combinations of process with fixed bed filters and precoat filters

19643-3: Treatment of water of swimming pools and baths - Part 3: Combinations of process with ozonization

19643-4: Treatment of water of swimming pools and baths - Part 4: Combinations of process with ultrafiltration

19643-5: Treatment of water of swimming pools and baths - Part 5: Combination of process: Flocculation, filtration, adsorption at granular activated carbon; chlorination

Yes, the 19643 standard has other components for coagulation, filtration, etc. and I wasn't suggesting it be used completely for residential pools/spas, but the disinfection portion is a standard that a disinfectant can pass, just as they can in the U.S. by passing DIS/TSS-12. It is NOT required for residential pool/spa products to pass DIS/TSS-12 unless they want to make a disinfectant claim such as "kills bacteria". To make such a claim without passing DIS/TSS-12 is a violation of FIFRA rules that apply to labeling, documentation, advertising, etc.

Second: You are talking about killing time. You are right. But only when I'm sitting with 30 strangers in one hot tub. Than, the killing time is very important. I wouldn't like to have the diseases of the other people.

But when I'm sitting in my private hot tub together with my wife and my children I don't care about killing time. The water has the whole night time to get clean. As I said: DIN 19643 is only for public hot tubs.

As I note above, it is not required for you to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 to sell a pool or spa product in the U.S., but one cannot claim to be a disinfectant or to "kill bacteria" unless one passes that test. You can make lesser claims "inhibits growth" or can make claims about killing algae but even then you would need to register with the EPA as a pesticide even for such slower killing claims. About the only exception is something like a phosphate remover that "removes an essential nutrient for algae to grow".

Third: Not all bacterias are harmful. You never should take a bath in a lake or a river. It is full of bacterias. And the bacterias help to have the lake or river clean. Your body has more bacterias than cells. I should fill you with chlorine to get rid of all the bacterias in your body. It is really not EPA approved.

Of course not all bacteria are harmful. However, there aren't products on the market that can distinguish "good" bacteria from "bad" (well, a product called Clear Choice claims to, but is not supported by any scientific evidence). The fecal bacteria you shed include "good" bacteria such as Bifidobacterium bifidum, Lactobacillus sp. and Spirochetes while the "bad" bacteria that can be pathogens include Staphylococcus aureus, Enterococcus faecalis, Enterobacteriaceae (Escherichia coli), Bacteroides sp. and Clostridium sp.. There is also bacteria often found on the skin such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa. Though pathogenic bacteria are often found on and in the body, they are controlled in their population by both competing bacteria and by the body's defenses. The issue is that shedding such bacteria into nutrient-rich warm water can lead to uncontrolled bacterial growth and that is what can then re-enter the body through orfices (e.g. mouth, eyes) or through damaged skin (e.g. cuts, scrapes) and overwhelm the body's defenses due to the much larger number of such bacteria.

I'm sorry for beeing sharp (and for abusing your language). But I think it is allowed to have an opinion. I know, I will never convince you. But looking at something from different sides is always better than claiming all people are idiots because they don't believe in EPA.

Speaking for myself, I know I never called you any such names. I am simply trying to place your product within the broad spectrum from "does nothing (i.e. snake oil)" to "kills bacteria quickly (i.e. passes EPA DIS/TSS-12)". There are a whole spectrum of products in between some of which, like copper/silver combo ionization, kill many bacteria but do so slowly, but they are generally not effective against viruses nor protozoan oocysts (though chlorine isn't great fot the latter either, but mostly bad for Cryptosporidium parvum). You have provided some test results from Dr. Fintelmann und Dr. Meyer GmbH with information on bacteria without detailed test conditions (how long after leaving the tub where bacteria then tested and where -- bulk pool water, surfaces, both), but not on viruses and protozoa. Many of the cases of problem water leading to illness reported on this forum were using alternative systems (some of whom also have reports from private tests on their websites) though many cases were also using chlorine at insufficient quantities (so zero chlorine for too long) or had CYA buildup from continued Dichlor-only usage.

You may very well have a great product that won't prevent person-to-person transmission of disease, but will prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth. If that's the case, then just say so, preferably referring to detailed independent test results (i.e. the full lab report), and we'll place this product in the spectrum probably close to copper/silver ionization if indeed that's where it belongs.