Real Energy Use Data

[arf1410]

Rather than debate the merits of insulation types or number of pumps, I am trying to get more actual energy consumption DATA. My understanding is that a couple of years ago, California enacted "Title 20" and has a California Energy Commission (CEC) with a standard testing procedure, and defined targets. I have found a short list of some spas, and how they did on this test. Can anyone provide a link(s) to the full data set on test performance for a larger number of tubs? Best I can gather from the limited research I have done, among the spas that have passed this test, the difference in energy consumption is relatively small - ie within about a 20% window? but looking for this real data to support, and expand upon, some of what I previously found, but cannot find again...

[Itchy and Scratchy]

Engery consumption and chemical use / water chemistry are the two issues I believe the spa industry leaves potential customers in the dark about.

When a potential buyer is on the fence about an $8000 spa ALL dealers will tout how well insulated there spas are and how it will only add $30 a month to your electric bill. That might be the case in many areas of the country, but not in areas like California with tired electrical rates that can reach $0.40 KWH. When I bought my used Marquis spirit 180 gal. tub I went to my local dealer and asked if it was possible to convert it to gas. They said no and asked why I would want to. I explained that I knew it was much cheaper / efficient to heat with gas. Of course they went on about how efficent there tubs were and how even a 400 gal tub would use less than $40 a month. They went on to say Costco tubs were poorly insulated and could cost $150 a month.

I have monitored my tub with a kill-a-watt and it uses 150 KWH a month to heat 180 gal to 104 deg. for a nightly 1 hour soak. That equates to roughly $50 for my tiny tub. In an effort to save enegry I even soak with a floating foam thermal blanket over 80% of the waters surface which I know saves on the heating. If I had a 350 gal tub fully uncovered I could see my electric useage around $125 to $150 a month in califorina.

On the flip side I had researched a round ceder spa with a gas heater. I could heat a 750 gal. tub with gas for around $30 a month.

The spa industry better wake and get ahead of the curve. Those people that enjoy .06 KWH electric rates won't last long. Soon everybody will be paying BIG $$$ for electric and dealers will have a hard time selling an $8000 spa that consumes $1500 in electric a year. Manufactures need to put out gas options for heating.

Don't even get me started on how they misinform the public about chemical and water care. If you follow there advice you will wage chemical warfare on you tub and spend 1000% more than the methods this board advises.

[hot_water]

I have a 350 gallon Strong Evolution tub in Northern CA and pay $35-45 per month as a yearly average. More in the winter (still not close to $125!!) and very little during summer.

Energy use of hot tubs depends very heavily on your usage habits. I use mine 3-4 time per week, 45 min avg time, with the jets running maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

There are things that you can do to lessen your costs. Close the air valves when you exit. Economy or sleep mode in my tub (Balboa controller) seems to help. I time the filter cycles so that one of them runs just before my normal useage time. Also, don't let your tub heat in the wee hours when it's coldest out. I also turn my heater off when I get in... I start with it 1 degree higher than my preferred temp and let it sag a degree or two while I'm in. You lose a lot of heat when the cover's off, so it's wasteful to run the heater if you can avoid it. I try not to run the air injection too much. My current spa doesn't have an air blower, but my previous one did.... try not to use it! Those really cool off the water. And, very important, make sure your cover is in good shape and seals well. A cover problem can cost a lot. If you see your water level dropping and feel that it's due to evaporation, that's potentially very expensive.

[Mark]

You can find data on portable electric spas here:

http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/AdvancedSearch.aspx

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Can anyone provide a link(s) to the full data set on test performance for a larger number of tubs? Best I can gather from the limited research I have done, among the spas that have passed this test, the difference in energy consumption is relatively small - ie within about a 20% window? but looking for this real data to support, and expand upon, some of what I previously found, but cannot find again...

After opening the link below I suggest you adjust the display to show "100 per page" but let me add something that is important to know, this data is self-reported.

I know that for a couple reasons. The first is that there are a couple brands on there that I just flat out don't believe can compete with some of the others for energy use yet their data conveniently says they do as if they know what results they want to post but you can say thats just heresay.

The real evidence that this is self-reported is in the numbers themselves if you take a closer look:

-Look at the results for Dynasty, Hydropool & Sun West. Notice anything odd? ALL of their models not matter the size or features have the same standby watts lol. Huh? That’s obviously not possible and shows that the CEC is not verifying anything and isn't even raising a red flag when someone just hands them some BS data. Now some manufacturers certainly posted real data but for those who can’t match up results there's no problem, just fudge (unless you’re Dynasty, Hydropool and Sun West whose ability to come up with fake data makes them end up looking like the people who show up on those dumb criminal shows).

http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/SearchResults.aspx

[SpaTechincian]

Can anyone provide a link(s) to the full data set on test performance for a larger number of tubs? Best I can gather from the limited research I have done, among the spas that have passed this test, the difference in energy consumption is relatively small - ie within about a 20% window? but looking for this real data to support, and expand upon, some of what I previously found, but cannot find again...

After opening the link below I suggest you adjust the display to show "100 per page" but let me add something that is important to know, this data is self-reported.

I know that for a couple reasons. The first is that there are a couple brands on there that I just flat out don't believe can compete with some of the others for energy use yet their data conveniently says they do as if they know what results they want to post but you can say thats just heresay.

The real evidence that this is self-reported is in the numbers themselves if you take a closer look:

-Look at the results for Dynasty, Hydropool & Sun West. Notice anything odd? ALL of their models not matter the size or features have the same standby watts lol. Huh? That’s obviously not possible and shows that the CEC is not verifying anything and isn't even raising a red flag when someone just hands them some BS data. Now some manufacturers certainly posted real data but for those who can’t match up results there's no problem, just fudge (unless you’re Dynasty, Hydropool and Sun West whose ability to come up with fake data makes them end up looking like the people who show up on those dumb criminal shows).

http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/SearchResults.aspx

I agree with spatech with the amount of data from the CEC thats really accurate. If you have ever watched the movie Erin Browkorvich (not sure of the spelling, but that older movie with Julie Roberts in it and shes fight against this corrupt firm. The movie was based off a true story). This was the same company that did the CEC testing! Sometime in the near future the results from the CSA (canadian testing) testing on hot tubs will be released and these were done a little more accurate and more in consideration to average weather here in Canada. By 2012 they are saying that if the hot tub does not past this testing it is not to be sold in Canada. (not sure on how true this is), but Canada is trying to take bigger steps to becoming a "greener country" so watch out for these results when they come out. This testing was to be something similar to the CEC but on steroids!

[Itchy and Scratchy]

Hot Water, I'm curious. What is your top tier electric rate. How do you gauge your KWH consumption. Operational cost will vary like EPA mpg when driving. Sounds like you drive 55 while I drive 85. I like my water at 104 and keep it there during my soak. I had to get the thermal blanket because my tub is 110V and will lose heat faster than in can recover without the blanket. I have not had my tub during the summer so hopefully cost will go down.

However you cut it there is ambiguity when it comes to electrical tub consumption but gas is much cheaper and heats alot faster. You don't see many electric hot water heaters for homes for that very reason.

[Spa God]

forget it... you will never get the real data, it is simply not available right now, and until someone takes all these tubs and runs them all together under the same circumstances it will always be a crap shoot.

The truth is forget about it. THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF INSULATION... GOOD INSULATION AND BAD INSULATION...

Forget the pitches and the B.S. if they have a good amount of foam (minimum 4" plus)and utilizing the motor heat, and a 5" cover you are tackling 70% or more of your total heat loss.

If they are using a sheet of bubble pack lined with Mylar, or a inch injected into the skirt cavity you are not... just use common sense, all the decent insulated spas run very very close to each other, there are good pitches for each type but there is no substitute for common sense and no magic bullets.

Plus here is the catch... take two identical spas side by side with different usage and the running cost could be different by a factor of 4-5 times!!! a great insulated spa with a lot of winter usage can easily cost way more that a poorly insulated spa with little winter usage

[bdubya200]

You don't see many electric hot water heaters for homes for that very reason.

Really? There are tons of electric hot water heaters. Tons. Not to mention, a lot of the new tankless ' on demand' heaters are all electric.

I guess electricity isnt as bad as you think it is. Good luck converting your used 2 person acrylic tub to gas. Shouls be a HUGE savings over electrical, after you pay for the conversion over the life of the tub.

[Dr. Spa]

It truly depends on the area....and the builders. Some areas are mostly electric heaters, and other are almost exclusivity gas (where I am electric water heaters are unheard of).

I've done a number of electric heat to gas heat conversions on spas. It can easily cost $2000 - $3000 and in most cases, the cost savings will never be made up. Vacation and weekend homes are the most common as the heat up time from cold to hot is exponentially faster with gas.

[bdubya200]

It truly depends on the area....and the builders. Some areas are mostly electric heaters, and other are almost exclusivity gas (where I am electric water heaters are unheard of).

I've done a number of electric heat to gas heat conversions on spas. It can easily cost $2000 - $3000 and in most cases, the cost savings will never be made up. Vacation and weekend homes are the most common as the heat up time from cold to hot is exponentially faster with gas.

Yeah...you articulated it better than I. I grew up in the Southeast, where most water heaters are electric and in home heating is done almost exclusively with electric heat pumps, but here in Utah, no such thing. I admit that I now have a gas water heater, but at my cabin, I now have an electric on demand tankless water heater. just wanted the misconception corrected that ' you dont see many electric water heaters in homes.' I fully acknowledge that in a tanked electic vs tanked gas battle, the gas will win in speed all day long. A electirc to gas conversion, especially on a used acrylic tub, just doesnt make much financial sense to me.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

here in the north east, it is cheaper to heat the tub with electric than gas, propane is very exspensive in our area, we do not have the underground natural gas lines that seem to be most cost effective than propane.Plus, 100% of the energy from electric is put into the water, where as gas you are losing heat out the chimney.

on the flip side, we have done several heat exchangers for the outdoor wood furnaces that people have. the heat exchanger is only about $800.00 and since they are running the furnace anyway, there is no real addtional costs to heat the tub, just adding another small zone.

[bdubya200]

here in the north east, it is cheaper to heat the tub with electric than gas, propane is very exspensive in our area, we do not have the underground natural gas lines that seem to be most cost effective than propane.Plus, 100% of the energy from electric is put into the water, where as gas you are losing heat out the chimney.

on the flip side, we have done several heat exchangers for the outdoor wood furnaces that people have. the heat exchanger is only about $800.00 and since they are running the furnace anyway, there is no real addtional costs to heat the tub, just adding another small zone.

yeah...same with my cabin. Out in the sticks, so have to truck in the propane. I like to save it for when we really need it for the furnace, so thus the switch to the on demand HW heater. Having to fully remodel the whole place enayway, so figured now was a good time to switch. The outdoor heat exhanger sounds like a nifty setup for those that could use it.

At our home, we just recently replaced an ancient NG Furnace witha 96% efficiency NG furnace. Liking it so far as its saving us some decent money on NG ( and not to mention the nice tax credit we got since we got it installed at the end of December...higher Tax credit last year than this year), but the exhuast/condensate setup is annoyingly loud outside. We dont hear it inside, but I worry that it willb other our neighbors. Thats a drawback we hadnt accounted for.

[Itchy and Scratchy]

Kinda missing the point I was trying to make. If you live In an area with 0.06 KWH rates electric will be cheaper. My tub usage costs over 0.30 KWH and I predict all areas of the country will enjoy a rate similar in the future, maybe not next year but surely within the next decade. My natural gas rates are 1.25 a therm tops. I can heat s 750 gal tub for same price as my 180 gal tub. I won't convert now but before I buy an $8000 tub I will surly compare operating costs over a 10 year period.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I got your point, I think everyone else was saying depends on where you are. I hope to god we do not go up to .30 for electric, as i am guessing you hope not to go up to over $4.00 per gallon for propane I persoanlly think solar is the route we should be looking more into for hot tubs in the future. To each what works best for them!

[bdubya200]

Kinda missing the point I was trying to make. If you live In an area with 0.06 KWH rates electric will be cheaper. My tub usage costs over 0.30 KWH and I predict all areas of the country will enjoy a rate similar in the future, maybe not next year but surely within the next decade. My natural gas rates are 1.25 a therm tops. I can heat s 750 gal tub for same price as my 180 gal tub. I won't convert now but before I buy an $8000 tub I will surly compare operating costs over a 10 year period.

I got your point, but pointed out that part of it was wrong and that another part of it makes no financial sense for the majority of the public who doesnt live in the land of electrical rape.

Like Hillbilly said...if you predict .30 for electricity for everybody else, what in the world do you think Natural Gas or propane is going to spike to? if the NG guy sees the elctircty guy making bank on a spike, do you think hes going to be content to keep his price markedly lower?

[bdubya200]

I persoanlly think solar is the route we should be looking more into for hot tubs in the future. To each what works best for them!

That, or developers should seriously consider geothermal infrastructures in newly developed lands prior to building houses/buildings on the land.

[hot_water]

Hot Water, I'm curious. What is your top tier electric rate. How do you gauge your KWH consumption. Operational cost will vary like EPA mpg when driving. Sounds like you drive 55 while I drive 85. I like my water at 104 and keep it there during my soak. I had to get the thermal blanket because my tub is 110V and will lose heat faster than in can recover without the blanket. I have not had my tub during the summer so hopefully cost will go down.

However you cut it there is ambiguity when it comes to electrical tub consumption but gas is much cheaper and heats alot faster. You don't see many electric hot water heaters for homes for that very reason.

I'm in northern CA and my top tier rates were over 40 cents as you mentioned. They just came down (!) a while ago to the 30 cent area. While CA electric rates are high, remember that our average temps are also high compared to most of the rest of the country. So while we do likely pay more, the effects somewhat counterbalance. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I pay more in the cold months and very little during the summer, giving me a $35-45 average that seems reasonable.

If you need to keep your temp at 104 to enjoy your tub, then that's what you should do. It doesn't mean that you couldn't do some or all the other things I mentioned to save money. The difference between your 104 and my 102 compared to an average CA ambient temp of 60F (this is the actual yearly avg temp in my area - more or less comparable to the rest of CA) amounts to less than 3%. But if you're running the jets a lot, using the air injection and not closing the valves, and not using a good strategy for maximizing heater efficiency, this can make a much larger difference. If you're really paying $125 to $150 per month, well, that seems like waaaay too much even here in CA. I've had two and have a few friends that have them, and no one is squealing about bills that high. I like using a spa, but the numbers you're citing would represent doubling my average utility bill... I would find another way to relax if that were the case. By the way, both my spas were from Costco, both ran pretty well, gave no problems, and both cost the same to operate to the point where I can't see much difference in the bills. Despite all the blah-blah-blah about poor insulation, they seem to do fine.

Sure gas is cheaper in many parts of the country, no question about it. Again, if your costs were $125 to $150 that might make the cost of running the gas line, added permit (different than electrical permit) and all that attractive. But with average costs of $35 to $45 for an all electric spa, it's not worth it. I think that's where most people are. At that cost, the electric heaters aren't too expensive to run, are cheap to replace when they die, and besides most spas need the 240V service for the pumps, anyway... so an all-electric system is easier (cheaper) to install.

[bdubya200]

But with average costs of $35 to $45 for an all electric spa, it's not worth it. I think that's where most people are. At that cost, the electric heaters aren't too expensive to run, are cheap to replace when they die, and besides most spas need the 240V service for the pumps, anyway... so an all-electric system is easier (cheaper) to install.

True story. Makes a lot of sense.

[arf1410]

I hope to have some wiring for a spa done soon. Is there any way, at a reasonable cost, I could have something installed, in order to track electricity use? I've got a 110v "kilowatt" for $20 bucks, so something similar, that would work with hard wired 220v would be great!

PS - on a different PC< I can't seem to stay logged in to post a reply. Any ideas

[ChaiSTi]

I hope to have some wiring for a spa done soon. Is there any way, at a reasonable cost, I could have something installed, in order to track electricity use? I've got a 110v "kilowatt" for $20 bucks, so something similar, that would work with hard wired 220v would be great!

PS - on a different PC< I can't seem to stay logged in to post a reply. Any ideas

Perhaps on the other PC you may be in the beta site that's not saving logins

[7808]

you could just burn wood or trash to heat your tub lol

http://www.instructables.com/id/Wood-Fired-Ocean-Hot-Tub/

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-a-wood-fired-hot-tub/