Jump to content

What's The Step By Step To Bromine Treatment?


footie
 Share

Recommended Posts

Thanks again. I have spoken to Palintest in Australia and for whatever reason they haven't carried a number of the kits listed on the Australian website in a long time, the also have no FAS-DPD test locally either. I have also spoken to the distributor for Taylors products locally also and they do not carry the Taylor K-2005. Just something called the "Taylors Complete Service Kit" which does not contain R-0872 or R-0871 FAS-DPD titrating reagent. In the interest of getting something I have gone ahead and ordered the TFTestkit TF-100 without the R-0871. I have asked them to let me know when/if the reagent comes in.

I also asked a local pool shop to see what they can source and they looked and me strangely and said "why would you wnat anything other than test strips". They obviously aren't spending any time on this forum.

Is there other other individual reagent that may be worth getting on the list below as I may be able to source some of them individually if I know what I need to compliment the TF-100 kit? http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_components.asp?KitID=2227

Given that I will have a TFTestkit TF-100 without the R-0871 what am I missing out on for testing as I will have to make do with a test strip or something for now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Taylor Complete Service Kit is probably the same thing as the K-2005. It uses a DPD chlorine test which looks to be the only thing you will be able to get, but that's better than test strips. Jeez, can't these local Taylor people correlate what they have with the official Taylor website and kit numbering?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All you really need for a bromine based system is these items and I bet you can easily get all of them online in Australia.

278.jpg

Bromine/pH test kit with tablets

782M.jpg

Alkalinity tablets

792M.jpg

Calcium Hardness tablets

TUBEM.jpg

100ml testing tube

These items cost me less than £50, it's basically the same setup I have used for the last 9 years in my swimming pool with the only difference being a Chlorine/pH test kit in place of the Bromine and couldn't be easier to use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys, The TF-100 kit (includes Taylor K-1000 kit) has arrived minues the R-0871 FAS-DPD titrating reagent which I have on back order. The test I can do with the kit I have is Chlorine/Bromine with Orthotolidine (R-0600) which as mentioned above will be more accurate than a test strip which is great.

Unfortunately I won't be able to do the more accurate test unless I can locate another FAS-DPD titrating reagent as I only have the DPD powder (R-0870) currently and by what I have read I need the R-0871 drops to complete that test.

As mentioned I have spoken to Taylor distributor (none in stock) here and Palintest Australia (don't bring it in to this country). Is there anything other company/brand or product that I might be able to source to do this FAS-DPD function?

The good news is I am in a better place than only armed with test strips :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay some results with TF-100 kit. Spa at 36 Degrees C and is 1100 litres (apologies for metric)

I have done two tests 5 hours apart. BTW: spa has not been used since I drained/cleaned and filled it last 5 days ago.

First test: Bromine >10, pH >8.2, CH 60, I didn't right down TA but I think it was about 100

After first test I added 50g of Calcium Hardness and 10g of Dry Acid, removed the floater and waited 5 hours

Second test: Bromine 10, pH 8.2, CH 110, TA 70

With my TA tests on both occasions I am getting a pink and not a red, so I am counting the number of drops it takes to turn all pink. The first test I added at least 10 more drops but it didn't seem to turn a deeper red it just stayed pink. I added 10 grams of dry acid.

Third test: Bromine 6, pH 7.8, CH not tested, TA 60 (18 hours later)

With my TA tests on this occasion it was closer to a red than a pink, so I am counting the number of drops it takes to turn the reddish colour (ie. no green in it). Now I have just put the BR floater back in at about 50% and am think about adding another 20 grams of CH. Is there anything else I should be thinking about.

Chemgeek mentioned earlier that the side effect of the bleask I got from the supermarket might make the PH high which seems to be correct if that is what is causing it so I should probably change my bleach make up soon.

Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When doing the "color change" drop tests, you are looking for changes in hue and shouldn't worry about the specific intensity at the start and end of the test unless the last drops continue to make a significant change. So for TA it goes from green to red, but if it is going from a pale aqua-green to a pink, that still counts. You could add more dye drops for a more intense color if you think that helps you to discern the change.

Your pH is rising not so much from the bleach but from the TA since even 60-70 can be high enough to cause significant pH rise in a spa, especially if you've got spa jets running.

The OTO chlorine/bromine test is better than nothing, but even if you can't find a FAS-DPD test, a DPD (shades of pink) test might be easier to read than the OTO (shades of yellow) test you have now. At least with the OTO, it won't bleach out at high chlorine/bromine levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for clarification. Is there a way and if so what is it to raise TA without raising PH?

I didn't think I wanted the PH level any higher than what it is now.

Also what is the DPD shades of pink test you refer to? I presume you are referring to first part of the "Chlorine drop test" in my TF-100 instructions. "10 ml in clylinder, add spoon of DPD Powder and swirl. The solution should turn pink". I haven't got any shades of pink with a reading to compare against that I am aware of except for pinkish PH colours in the Taylor K-1000 kit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using baking soda will raise the TA and if you add it by slowly mixing it in water without aeration then you can minimize the amount of pH rise. However, if the pH is lower, it will rise somewhat. If it rises more than you'd like, then you can add some acid to lower it, but quite frankly if the pH is tending to rise this means your TA is already too high. TA is a SOURCE of rising pH.

The shades of pink is how the DPD test works. You add DPD liquid drops and compare the color against a comparator, similar to your OTO test but instead of comparing shades of yellow you compare shades of pink/red. With the FAS-DPD, you add DPD powder and it turns pink/red but you then add titrating drops until the pink/red goes away and the sample turns colorless. The DPD test is in kits like the Taylor K-1005 and K-2005 and the Palintest Pooltester kits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Hi, I have been running my spa on Bromine for a month now. 1100 litre and 36.5 Degrees Celsius. Thanks for all the help.

The spa has been very stable and the two of us use it about 1-1.5 hours per week combined. I have been checking the water at least twice a week. The pH and TA range seems to sit very stably between pH=8.0 and TA=80 and on the lower side pH=7.7 and TA=50. Most of the time its been at pH=7.8 and TA=60 or 70.

Is this okay to use ongoing as I can't seem to lift the TA without pushing the pH to high even while adding a dry acid slurry in very small amounts with minimal filtering?

We have trying to keep it around pH 7.8 as we both tend to have sensitive skin and this level seems to work well.

During the same period Bromine has varied between 2 and 10 while I worked out how get the floating dispenser balanced. For the last couple of weeks it has been reasonably stable around Bromine 4-6. Since the original fill I have only shocked with bleach once. Given that we only use the spa for about 1-1.5 hours per week combined how often should we shock it? Would once every 2-3 weeks be okay or is there a way to tell when it needs to be shocked?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can have your TA be on the low side if that's where the pH is more stable. Usually with bromine tabs you would need the TA a bit higher, but every spa is different due to differing amounts of aeration so the real rule is to set the TA wherever it works best for pH stability FOR YOU.

As for the floating dispenser, if you use the spa every day, then you can set the floating dispenser for a fairly even bromine release, but if you use the spa less frequently, say only on the weekends, then you'd be better off setting the dispenser lower so that it maintains bromine during the week, but then to add an oxidizer after your infrequent soaks. You shouldn't need to shock beyond this, at least not very often, if you maintain a bromine level consistently. At most, you'd only need to shock perhaps once a week -- usually with chlorine (such as bleach) works best, but again that might not be necessary. If your water starts to either smell or get dull, then a shock can help.

If by 1-1.5 hours combined for 2 people you meant 1-1.5 person-hours, then that's roughly 16-24 ppm bromine demand which would be the cumulative amount of oxidizer added after the soaks for the week, assuming the tablet feeder was just maintaining a lower bromine level in between soaks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I get my first spa delivered shortly, and have this Spa-Kem starter kit. Your Bromine Step #2 in the second post makes sense to initially raise the Bromine levels. However, this kit does not include sodium bromide - it provides a non chlorine shock (sodium persulfate) as the second step to "shock" the water which Spa-Kem says is adequate until the bromine levels increase. Does that sound OK, or is it critical I buy the sodium bromide. Also, in the event I need to adjust the TA, where do I get an appropriate acid to use? I take it white vinegar wont work?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get my first spa delivered shortly, and have this Spa-Kem starter kit. Your Bromine Step #2 in the second post makes sense to initially raise the Bromine levels. However, this kit does not include sodium bromide - it provides a non chlorine shock (sodium persulfate) as the second step to "shock" the water which Spa-Kem says is adequate until the bromine levels increase. Does that sound OK, or is it critical I buy the sodium bromide. Also, in the event I need to adjust the TA, where do I get an appropriate acid to use? I take it white vinegar wont work?

No, it is not ok. You will not have sanitized water. IMHO, Kem-Tek does not make the best chemicals and I also do not feel that sodium persulfate is appropriate to use as a non chlorine oxidizer since it is a known irritant.. Potassium monopersulfate is what is normally used. Both sodium persulfate and sodium percarbonate have been or are sold as non cholorine shock because they are cheaper chemicals that potassium monopersulfate but they have many drawbacks.

These chemicals are oxidizers, not sanitizers!

You need sodium bromide if you want to do three step bromine. Period. If you can't find it locally then order it online from one of the many online retailers that sell it. You need to add it each time you drain and refill the spa.

As far as adjusting pH and lowering TA you should be able to get dry acid (sodium bisulfate) at any pool/spa supply, in the pool/spa section of big box stores like Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, etc. You can also use Muriatic acid but since such a small amount is needed in the small volume of water in a spa it is too easy to overdose and difficult to measure accurately. Kem-tek sells sulfuric acid as pH minus and I do not recommend its use.

Vinegar (5% acetic acid) is not acceptable. It is what is known chemically as a 'weak acid' because it does not fully dissociate. It is also a very weak solution of acetic acid. For pH balance you need a 'strong acid' (one that fully dissociates) like muriatic (hydrochloric) or sulfuric (when dry acid is dissolved in water it forms sulfuric acid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks for the quick reply. I will look locally for the sodium bromide. Any chance ordinary household chlorine bleach would work in the short term until the bromine levels build up?

You will have a chlorine system and not a bromine system. The chemistry is a bit different so you will have to watch pH more closely and will need a lower TA to keep pH stable but you answer your question, yes, it will work. In fact, that is my preferred oxidize in a three step bromine system since it is also a primary residual sanitizer and ozone and MPS are not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best I can tell, Chlorine and Bromine will play nice together, so it is OK if the bromine tablets are floating in a chlorine system, for that first week or 2 after a refill? Can you point me to a good link which states how much household bleach to add? If I cannot find the sodium bromide at my neighborhood spa shop, I think I;ll use bleach as an interim solution...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best I can tell, Chlorine and Bromine will play nice together, so it is OK if the bromine tablets are floating in a chlorine system, for that first week or 2 after a refill? Can you point me to a good link which states how much household bleach to add? If I cannot find the sodium bromide at my neighborhood spa shop, I think I;ll use bleach as an interim solution...

Take it from someone who has a lot of experience with bromine. If you cannot find the sodium bromide locally order it online. You are going to need it with each drain and refill every 3-4 months! Adding chlorine as a a stop gap is not the best way and you will need it for approx the first month and a half to two months added on probably a daily basis. If this is the case just do either chlorine (dichlor/beach) or 2 step bromine (which does not use the tablets at all and also requires daily attention.)

If you want to gain the convenience of using bromine then get the sodium bromide. A 2 oz packet is normally abut $2 (and you can find boxes of 8 packs online for around $10 including shipping!). You only need 1/2 oz per 100 gallons so it is not a major expense!

You can get it from HTH, Leisure Time, Proteam (in liquid form) and other manufacturers. If you cannot find it I will let you in on a little secret. Most pool mustard algae treatments that come in little bags such as "The Yellow Stuff" and "Mustard & Black Magic" are just sodium bromide and no different that HTH Brom Start or Leisure Time sodium bromide and these mustard algae products are usually more readily available.

This is your first spa, as you said earlier. Learn from those that know a bit more than you do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best I can tell, Chlorine and Bromine will play nice together, so it is OK if the bromine tablets are floating in a chlorine system, for that first week or 2 after a refill? Can you point me to a good link which states how much household bleach to add? If I cannot find the sodium bromide at my neighborhood spa shop, I think I;ll use bleach as an interim solution...

Have you read the second post in this thread? It answers these questions in no uncertain terms! I suggest you go back and read it before posting again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I had read that second post. I went in to the major spa retail chain (around since 1959) and asked for Sodium Bromide granules. I now notice what I bought is 15% Sodium Bromide, 83% Sodium Dichloro-s triazinetroine...will it be a problem to use this, even though your early post does say pure NaBr?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I had read that second post. I went in to the major spa retail chain (around since 1959) and asked for Sodium Bromide granules. I now notice what I bought is 15% Sodium Bromide, 83% Sodium Dichloro-s triazinetroine...will it be a problem to use this, even though your early post does say pure NaBr?

<facepalm>wacko.gifwacko.gifwacko.gif

Make sure that you get sodium bromide in either powder or liquid form that is sold to start the bromide reserve or 'bromide bank' and not a one step bromine product that is a mixture of mostly dichlor and a little blt of sodium bromide. READ THE LABEL! It should only contain sodium bromide (and water if in liquid form).

Above is a quote from the second post. The bold face type is in the original post because it is an important point! I guess you really didn't read it, did you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But it looks like I can use the pure NaBr + the non-chlorine shock I have OR this 15% NaBr/82%NaCl, etc WITHOUT the shock stuff, and be OK, albeit with a chlorine system transitioning to a Br system over a week or two?

Do what you want. Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmmm...my goal is to do what is appropriate...I am just trying to reconcile what is posted here with what I am told by the local spa dealer, and read elsewhere on the internet.

The product manufacturer's website states:

"Apply SpaGuard Brominating Concentrate following label directions. Establish proper bromine residual of 3-6 ppm." and doesn't mention any need to shock the system if I use this product. Your last post implies this is not correct. Please help me and the other forum users understand why this is incorrect information on the SpaGuard website.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmmm...my goal is to do what is appropriate

Then reread the second post in this thread and follow it to the letter OR read about the dichlor/bleach method if you want to give chlorine a try AND get yourself a good test kit, either Taylor K-2106 for bromine or K-2006 for chlorine.

It's that easy.

...I am just trying to reconcile what is posted here with what I am told by the local spa dealer, and read elsewhere on the internet.

Then don't pay attention to what is posted here and don't post here if it is conflicting you. It really is that easy.

The product manufacturer's website states:

"Apply SpaGuard Brominating Concentrate following label directions. Establish proper bromine residual of 3-6 ppm." and doesn't mention any need to shock the system if I use this product. Your last post implies this is not correct. Please help me and the other forum users understand why this is incorrect information on the SpaGuard website.

<facepalm>

Take a bit of time to read through the forum and you might learn something. Or not.

Like I said, good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waterbear

Thanks for this great write-up again. Finally had the chance to implement it on a fresh fill today. Unforetunately things did not go as planned.

First, not directly an issue with your instructions but I wonder if the Pool Calculator is producing accurate numbers for me. I used it to calculate the amount of Baking Soda to put into the tub to bring the TA from 20 to 100 and my tub ended up at 140ppm... This of course made the PH go way high. Ended up bringing it both down (by trial and error.) I seem to be hovering at a 80ppm TA and a 7.8 PH right now.

I then used the calculator to determine the correct calcium hardness, had to bring it from 20 to 130. It ened up at 110-120 (better but still a tad off.)

More relevant to your instructions I put in the correct amount of Sodium Bromide in my case 1.5oz (300 gal hot tub) and added MPS (in my case about 1.25 oz) to create the bank... Nothing happened really. The bromine went to maybe 1 ppm...

I threw in the floater and am hoping you can shed some light...

Thanks!

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...