yosemitemike Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 We reciently purchased a sundance caprio, and it seems that the electric use is to high. We are setup on 220v keep the tub at 100 and it cycles twice a day for 20 min. and we use it each night for 20 min. Our electric bill jumped $100 per month, and the average KWH jumped 10 more per day. We talked to other poeple who live by us and they say that they never noticed a jump in there bill. Anybody have any ideas? We expected to pay an extra $30/month not $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pg_rider Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 I recently bought a Sundance Optima. It's on a 240V/60A service and is set at 102. I use it once, maybe twice a day for about 30 minutes. For my first month of ownership (Oct 23-Nov 23) my bill went up $50 compared to the same month last year. That's in Colorado Springs where it's been fairly cold and windy. $100 sounds like a LOT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mader Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 ya....$100 extra doesn't seem right. the cover nice and tight? can you feel warmth through it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintnsunni Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 We have a Costco Platinum Elite II spa and so far the worst bill is $42.00 more then last year without the spa. It is mild here in Seattle though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 well i have p2 from cost co and just got my first bill and it went up 200 from last month. I am totally confused on what to do. I live in Ontario and it has been cold. My usage went from an average of about 55 kwh to 180 kwh.....???? Help.....don't know whether to shut it off or what. can I get an electrician to see how much it's drawing? Any suggestions would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 This is insane, i am going crazy here, I just figured out the numbers exactly on my hydro bill and since installing this spa my hydro use has gone from and avg of 71 kwh to 155 kwh /day. That means the spa is using more energy than the entire house. Can you imagine, my bill went up 200 for one month. There must be a defective motor or heater that is drawing to much current. What else could it possibly be? Could a defective cover also be causing this or a loose cover? I can hardly wait to talk to them tomorrow Disregard the numbers on the last reply as they were inacurate, I calculated them exactly now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New NW tub owner Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 This is insane, i am going crazy here, I just figured out the numbers exactly on my hydro bill and since installing this spa my hydro use has gone from and avg of 71 kwh to 155 kwh /day. That means the spa is using more energy than the entire house. Can you imagine, my bill went up 200 for one month. There must be a defective motor or heater that is drawing to much current. What else could it possibly be? Could a defective cover also be causing this or a loose cover? I can hardly wait to talk to them tomorrow Disregard the numbers on the last reply as they were inacurate, I calculated them exactly now. My PE2 tub uses about 10 kwh per day. Your climate is probably a little colder but even in a really cold climate I don't think you should be using more than 20 kwh per day unless you leave the cover off most of the time. Is the heater on a lot? Did y ou leave a jet pump running.? Is your cover on snugly when you aren't using the tub? Most of the power is to run the heater which uses 4 kwh per hour when it is on. to use 80 kwh per day, the heater would have to running nearly 24 hours per day so you should be able to see if the heater is not turning off for some reason by looking at the control panel. Is there a good flow through the filters? Hard to tell what might be wrong without any information but something is definitely wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillard Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Was sitting here wondering how much electricity I am going to consume running my spa from what I have read on here there are some who have seen a substanal increase in kw usage. Since I am in Florida I know I wont have it as bad as some that live in the colder states. My electric bill runs about $70 bucks a month, and thats low. I just recently replaced my old air handler and outside ac and it dropped it down from $200. My home is was built in 1950 and the air handler inside stopped being produced in 1978, so that tells you how long it been in use. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the peoples increase was due to older ac/heater units going out for the increase in consumption of kw. No idea, but I know replacing older units definitely reduces your electric bill. A clogged overhead coil or a dirty outside coil on a ac unit can run your bill up pretty high. I better watch what I post some may think I am on here endorsing an ac carrier. lol Either way I will post my increase once I have power (tomorrow) and give you a general idea how much my platinum elite III adds to my bill over the next month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ya tech was here yesterday. (promptly after complaining loudly) it seems there is something wrong with the spa pack it's being replaced as is the circulation pump and ozone. Can't pinpoint the problem exactly. I also insulated 3 sides yesterday with R 14 Roxul and threw some in the front panel in open spaces in garbage bags carefully as not to have to much near the pumps for fresh air circulation. The tech recomended to leave the area at the lip above the panel uninsulated so there was some fresh air for the pumps so they don't overheat. We shall see what happens, I am monitoring the hydro usage daily now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ya tech was here yesterday. (promptly afert complaining loudly) it seems there is something wrong with the spa pack it's being replaced as is the circulation pump. Can't pinpoint the problem exactly. I also insulated 3s ides yesterday with R 14 Roxul and threw some in the front panel carefully as not to have to much near the pumps for fresh air circulation. We shall see what happens, i am monitoring the hydro usage daily now. The circ pump may have had an issue but it should have been unrelated to your high energy bills. As far as the spa pack goes, sure it could have been faulty but was he saying that was the cause of your high energy bills? Was your temp holding properly? If it was maintaining proper temp that should rule out your heater being improperly kept on too long and running up your bill. Was it keeping the pump on 24/7? If the temp was holding and your pump wasn't constantly on or cycling wildly I'm not sure the spa pack is the cause of your high enregy bills. If your spa is maintaining setpoint temp, high energy bills are typically due to lack of proper insulation in the spa and/or cover or the cover. If your bill comes down after this I'd attribute it to the insulation you've wisely added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 The circ pump may have had an issue but it should have been unrelated to your high energy bills. As far as the spa pack goes, sure it could have been faulty but was he saying that was the cause of your high energy bills? Was your temp holding properly? If it was maintaining proper temp that should rule out your heater being improperly kept on too long and running up your bill. Was it keeping the pump on 24/7? If the temp was holding and your pump wasn't constantly on or cycling wildly I'm not sure the spa pack is the cause of your high enregy bills. If your spa is maintaining setpoint temp, high energy bills are typically due to lack of proper insulation in the spa and/or cover or the cover. If your bill comes down after this I'd attribute it to the insulation you've wisely added. The circ pump was a 115 volt circ pump instead of the 240V which will draw half the power of the 115 Volt. That alone will have a big impact on the cost. Ya and the cover fits fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDM Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ya tech was here yesterday. (promptly after complaining loudly) it seems there is something wrong with the spa pack it's being replaced as is the circulation pump and ozone. Can't pinpoint the problem exactly. I also insulated 3 sides yesterday with R 14 Roxul and threw some in the front panel in open spance in garbage bags carefully as not to have to much near the pumps for fresh air circulation. The tech recomended to leave the area at the lip above the panel uninsulated so there was some frestair for the pumps so they don't overheat. We shall see what happens, i am monitoring the hydro usage daily now. Did the tech say it is problem with your specific spa pack, or the spa pack in all of the PII's (i.e bad design)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Did the tech say it is problem with your specific spa pack, or the spa pack in all of the PII's (i.e bad design)? Unsure of that, it was not working properly. That's all I know. Ozone is supposed to shut off if you touch the controls and then return back on 1 hr after no buttons are pushed on the controls bu it was not shutting off and if temp was turned down the circ pump was cutting out. Also some issues with the heater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim_The_Jim Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 We reciently purchased a sundance caprio, and it seems that the electric use is to high. We are setup on 220v keep the tub at 100 and it cycles twice a day for 20 min. and we use it each night for 20 min. Our electric bill jumped $100 per month, and the average KWH jumped 10 more per day. We talked to other poeple who live by us and they say that they never noticed a jump in there bill. Anybody have any ideas? We expected to pay an extra $30/month not $100. The first question is how much do you pay per kilowatt hour. It is on your electric bill or you can find it by dividing the dollars into the total KWH on the bill. Do you have any other devices in your home that may be causing the problem: 1/ Old refrigerator 2/ Old furnace pump. 3/Powerful Stereo system that the kids are leaving on all the time. 4/ ???? Anything electrical that is failing. It seems extreme for a smaller spa. If there is something wrong with the spa, like losing a lot of heat from a defective cover seal. I always recommend using a thermal blanket with all spas especially in winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 4/ ???? Anything electrical that is failing. That's some darn good advice there Jim Jim Not that I am imlplying anything...not at all. Not in the least, but just saying....oh if If you were ever to go out of business Jim, I bet you could get a job as an electrians apprectice. You seem to have a failry competent understanding of some of the basics, and don't seem to fly off the handle about it, or rant. It's a lot less stress too. You should look into it. I have a cousin in Denver who needs a shop boy to help with in the electrical stock room in his business. If you need a ref or want me to put in a good word for you , just let me know. good luck! And I mean that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim_The_Jim Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Not that I am imlplying anything...not at all. Not in the least, but just saying....oh if If you were ever to go out of business Jim, I bet you could get a job as an electrians apprectice. You seem to have a competent understanding of the basics, and don't seem to fly off the handle about it. It's a lot less stress too. You should look into it. I have a cousin in Denver who needs a shop boy to help with in the electrical stock room in his business. If you need a ref or want me to put in a good word for you , just let me know. good luck! And I mean that! Thank you for opening up this discussion. I ran an electrical contracting business in Boulder Co in the 80's and early 90's., 7 years. I lived by the NEC book. We focused on remodeling and wiring up light industrial, my reputation was excellent because even the electrical inspector was referring us to his friends. I have put in three phase multiple services in and have done house remodels and additions, my favorite. I bought all of our electrical supplies from a really great company in Boulder, Colotex Electric Supply. It was because of my deformed lower back that I started using hot tubs and became very fond of them. Every day I would come home in pain, and the hot tub we had was a blessing, but it was antique, costs me $100 on gas alone to use it, and I turned down the thermostat each time. While I was at a customers home, there would be a broken down old tub, and the customer asked if I could take a look at it. With Electrical engineering background, it was a snap for me to "reverse engineer" and fix them. All of those old time clock relay and solar systems are very simple to me. I was repairing a spa for Sandy's mom, up at the mountain home when I got offered a job in the hot tub service industry. This spa was a typical hot tub industry mess. They put an old 120V control on a 240V heater, similar to what caused the fires on Hot Spring spas a few years ago. They had replaced the heater and relay about 6 times per year. It was incorrect wiring and I have seen a lot of that. I took a look at that mess and decided to make a new control box for it, from scratch. I went in to The Colorado Hot Tub Exchange, because they were the only place in the whole of Denver who sold hot tub electrical parts at that time. When I drew out the design, electrical diagram, for the new control box while I was at the counter, the owner, said: "Here are all your parts. You will have to get the box to put them in down at Hugh M. Woods, electrical department." (Before Lowes and Home Depot, they were it.). Then he said: "By the way, we are looking for a service manager." He was an unemployed computer engineer, who got into the spa repair business, much the same way. Somebody asked him if he could fix their hot tub. He is also one of the best hot tub people in this world. I went back and applied and interviewed three times, because it meant a huge cut in pay. I took Sandy with me on the last trip so that she was OK with me not making but half of what I used to make to start with. I just liked hot tubs. It was a lot of fun for me, that job. When I got there the service department was certainly in need of organization, so I organized it and got if from being in the red to being in the Black, and I got a raise. We doubled the income of his service department in less than a year. In the mean time I got to see all these "wonderful" hot tubs falling apart in people's back yards and got to do a lot of frozen spa estimates. We had up to 50 service calls a week with three people, and I did pack repair on the bench and went out on some calls. I saw it all. It was that experience combined with my engineering background that made me think that somebody needs to build a spa that follows standard engineering principles and not follow these poor unfortunate people. I said that; "If anybody were to build a spa that follows standard engineering they would do well." Our first spas are still running and just now needed a shaft seal replacement and that is all they have had problems with. It is not an accident, it is by design. All you have to do is use the equipment correctly and use much better equipment. It is not a big secret, as my genius brother used to say: "I didn't invent this stuff. I is in all those books." (pointing to his book shelf full of engineering reference manuals.) You should see some of his accomplishments in engineering. We have spas all over the place, Europe, Alaska, Hawaii, Scotland, England, and in just about every State except for a few. All of them are doing very well. We have about four warranty issues going at anyone month. It is even better now that I am overseeing and finishing many of the spas myself. Really fun to fine tune each one and the Super Custom spas are becoming a legend. Our business is doing OK, not booming, but we are not so in debt that we are in any trouble. The support from our existing customers all across the country is just wonderful. Just because I feel that most spas are pretty dumb compared to something that follows standards of engineering, seems to make people who own inferior products or sell inferior products really angry with me. We have a niche that no other spa company can fill. Super high quality at much lower prices, because of how efficient the company is run, and how little waste there is. Here is some music for you to listen to while you contemplate your motives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New NW tub owner Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Unsure of that, it was not working properly. That's all I know. Ozone is supposed to shut off if you touch the controls and then return back on 1 hr after no buttons are pushed on the controls bu it was not shutting off and if temp was turned down the circ pump was cutting out. Also some issues with the heater. The ozonator stays on all of the time on the PE2. The only way to turn it off would be to unplug its power plug from the spa controller. It is not possible for the recirc pump (or the ozonator) to use the 80 kwh per day that you mentioned. The recirc pump is only 1/15 hp or about 50 watts. It is supposed to run 24/7 normally. If the recirc pump had some sort of short circuit in its windings, it would shut off but it would not use the thousands of watts of power per hour that you said were going through your tub. Among other things, the windings in the motor (and in all motors) have small thermal overloads that open when the temp gets too hot. The ONLY thing that can be using the kind of power you mentioned in your original post is the 4kw heater and the only way it could use that much power would be if it were stuck on and overheating the water (defective controller could do this but is essentially impossible with the Balboa design) or if the cover were not on or was partially leaking heat. The jet pumps and blower can use a lot of power when on but they are on software timers and the only way they can continue to operate is if someone restarts them every 10 minutes. Also, you would notice if they were running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Sigh. No Jim, we weren't looking for you tired old biography. I was simply saying that since you are going out of business that maybe you could take a job as an appretence. I was paying you a compliment, and you completely missed the point. All you saw was an opportunity to talk about your favorite subject: You and your manic ramblinbs. Please, there are many people who care about you, Jon, Sandy, Jenny, All of them. Please take a breath, and relax. Ok? Good luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 The ozonator stays on all of the time on the PE2. The only way to turn it off would be to unplug its power plug from the spa controller. It is not possible for the recirc pump (or the ozonator) to use the 80 kwh per day that you mentioned. The recirc pump is only 1/15 hp or about 50 watts. It is supposed to run 24/7 normally. If the recirc pump had some sort of short circuit in its windings, it would shut off but it would not use the thousands of watts of power per hour that you said were going through your tub. Among other things, the windings in the motor (and in all motors) have small thermal overloads that open when the temp gets too hot. The ONLY thing that can be using the kind of power you mentioned in your original post is the 4kw heater and the only way it could use that much power would be if it were stuck on and overheating the water (defective controller could do this but is essentially impossible with the Balboa design) or if the cover were not on or was partially leaking heat. The jet pumps and blower can use a lot of power when on but they are on software timers and the only way they can continue to operate is if someone restarts them every 10 minutes. Also, you would notice if they were running. Right it seems to be a combination of things including the cheap inefficient 115 V circ pump that was supposed to be 240 V. Swapping that will then use half the energy that it's using now and therefore half the cost that it's costing me now to run the piece of crap that's in there. Even if it's only 15 bucks a month difference it still adds up over time. It was hydrospa that told me the ozone is supposed to shut off. They said that is how it's supposed to be programmed into the balboa board. I don't know maybe they are wrong about their own spas. I have also been told by multiple sources that if a contact is stuck on in the circuit board then the heater could be running at 120 instead of 240 and this would not trip the breaker or anything else. If this is the case then the heater would be working harder and on most of the time. This could be causing the large kwh usage. My electrician did the math and told me that this is one problem that it could be and the math works out that the heater could be on most of the time. That's one of the reasons they are swapping the spa pack. The blower and jet pumps seem to be coming on when they are scheduled to be. My electrician also did the math based on their ratings for the heater, ozone, circ pump and the other 2 pumps on for approximately 2 hrs a day. If the heater is on nonstop than this would amount to around 350.00 a month at my electricity rate which is not to far off my bill. Hopefully the tech that was here yesterday will fix the problem after the 240 V circ pump, ozonator and new spa pack goes in. After 24 hrs of insulating the tub, it seems to be helping. I am going to monitor my daily usage for a month and this will tell me just how much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmendoza17 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I sympathize with ya deandog, keep after Hydrospa and you will eventually get results. I suggest you document what gets done, including taking photos and video of the work. If you bought it Costco, you can return as option of last resort. Did you say the recirc pump is supposed to be 220 and they fitted your unit with 120? Are they replacing it under warranty or are you paying the tech? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deandog Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I sympathize with ya deandog, keep after Hydrospa and you will eventually get results. I suggest you document what gets done, including taking photos and video of the work. If you bought it Costco, you can return as option of last resort. Did you say the recirc pump is supposed to be 220 and they fitted your unit with 120? Are they replacing it under warranty or are you paying the tech? Yes that is what was in it unlike the manual which shows a 240V in the schematic. They are covering it all under warranty. They seem to be trying to work with me to correct the problem which is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmendoza17 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Yes that is what was in it unlike the manual which shows a 240V in the schematic. They are covering it all under warranty. They seem to be trying to work with me to correct the problem which is good. Good to hear they are being helpful. I too have been experiencing higher than the dollar-a-day costs as well but had never thought about voltage differences. I'll ask the tech when he comes by next week. Please post whether the change in pump helps lower your costs. Also, please post if you find out about the controller. I had trouble with pumps locking into some weird surging action and it was a problem with the balboa unit. Hydrospa has replaced my circulation pump recently and the master controller now twice. I did not notice if it was 120 or 220. Also, apparently, they are no longer using the same master controller now and have upgraded it in the PEIII. You may keep an eye on that on your unit and also push for the upgrade to see if that helps. Also, I have been told that there is a way to control the amount of time that the circulation pump runs. Less time can lead to dirty water etc, but an optimum setting may help you save some energy, say by running 4 hours instead of 6 or 8. Another trick I was told is that if you reset your breaker at around the time you want the recirc to go on, it will start at that time each night. If its true, it could save costs by allowing you to set it to operate it during non-peak electricity demand periods. Maybe some of the real experts on the board can talk about these things in better detail. Good luck. Keep posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintnsunni Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I have yet to see my P.E.II cost more then 45 dollars and it stays at the normal setting with the circ pump on twenty four hours. I belive that the circ pump needs to run in order to keep the spa to temp without running the jet pumps 1,2 and 3. my worst bill was last momnth but that also had record cold weather in that month. I wonder if your jet pumps are set to go on more then the minimum setting. I think you can adjust the filter set times. I m not at home but believe it is to push the twmp down arrow then the mode button to desired setting? I'll check when I get home. Also note my neighbor has a hotsprings preodigy which ran 38 dollars according to him vs my 45 dollars..... Hopefully you ill find whats wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDM Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'll be curious to hear if the new spa pack lowers the energy consumption. From everything I have read, 10kwh is about normal for spa energy conumption in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmendoza17 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I'll be curious to hear if the new spa pack lowers the energy consumption. From everything I have read, 10kwh is about normal for spa energy conumption in a day. In our area that would be about $2 a day. But everything I am experiencing indicates more. A friend who is the chief electrician at a large local institution tells me that spas are power hogs and that $100 a month may no be out of the question. I don't know what to believe. The one thing I do know is that I have not found consumer reports study or anything as credible on energy consumption by spas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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