Hot Spring Ace Water Santitation System

[spawn]

I think what you've described is just the Hot Spring's Nature 2 alternative and still requires MPS. ACE is the only system I'm aware of that needs no additional chemicals after the water is stabilized, besides the salt. Regardless of the dealer's unscrupulous tactics, I would think that the system would appeal to more than just those who don't want to deal with the hassles of a chlorine regimen. At even a modest $250 a year in chemical savings, the buy-in will more than pay for itself over the course of the spa's life. Not having to deal with the hassle is just an added bonus! I talked to one user (referred by my dealer) that has had the system for about a year. He travels a lot, and he said he was confident that he could leave it alone for a month or more at a time, and it would still test at ideal levels when he returned. I'm still shopping, so I'm not a Hot Spring zealot by any means, but if I do buy a Hot Spring's tub, it will have ACE. For those pricing, the difference at my dealer was only about $500 more with than without as well...

Actually, i think that the Hot Spring version of Nature2 is called FreshWater AG+ Continuous Silver Ion Purifier and you are correct, it requires MPS. Here is more info on the AutoFresh system.

The sophisticated components of the AutoFresh system are seamlessly integrated with your Hot Spring spa to keep your spa water fresh, clean and sparkling clear – automatically.

(A) Dosing Engine

Your authorized Hot Spring dealer will install the dosing engine containing the advanced components that drive the AutoFresh system. The sophisticated switching valve, pump, and circuit board work together to calculate the precise amount of chemicals needed, and automatically dispense them into the spa water.

Cartridge & Cartridge Base

The cartridge base will be attached to the underside of the filter lid by your authorized Hot Spring dealer. You simply install the disposable AutoFresh cartridge, which becomes invisible once in place.

The cartridge contains a chlorine- and bromine-free sanitizer, shock, and waterline control. Each cartridge lasts about three months, varying based on spa size

© Water Care Icon

Every two weeks, a flashing water care icon reminds you to test the spa water. Simply input the test strip reading into the IQ 2020® control panel or optional remote control

(D) IQ 2020® Control System

The Hot Spring IQ 2020® Control System communicates with the AutoFresh dosing engine, and together they determine and deliver the correct dosage

It looks like it uses Baqua Spa as the sanitizer, whereas the ACE system uses salt. The AutoFresh system sounds really great - just do a test strip reading every two weeks and input the reading and the system does the rest. Seems easier than the ACE system as I understand it.

[dark rider]

Looks like you're right Spawn... I came across this link when doing a search, Autofresh, which has a diagram of the AutoFresh system. It's Baqua based, as you suspected. I'd still rather have the ACE system, which appears to have replaced it, as I no longer see it as an option. Maybe one of the Hot Spring dealers can clarify.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Looks like you're right Spawn... I came across this link when doing a search, Autofresh, which has a diagram of the AutoFresh system. It's Baqua based, as you suspected. I'd still rather have the ACE system, which appears to have replaced it, as I no longer see it as an option. Maybe one of the Hot Spring dealers can clarify.

The problem with Hot Springs previous system was it was Baqua based and regardless of how well it may have worked you can't get over the fact that most people just won't like that once they try it.

The new system being a salt based auto-chlorine generator plays to what people will want and like after using so this time its being done right.

[footie]

Looks like you're right Spawn... I came across this link when doing a search, Autofresh, which has a diagram of the AutoFresh system. It's Baqua based, as you suspected. I'd still rather have the ACE system, which appears to have replaced it, as I no longer see it as an option. Maybe one of the Hot Spring dealers can clarify.

The problem with Hot Springs previous system was it was Baqua based and regardless of how well it may have worked you can't get over the fact that most people just won't like that once they try it.

The new system being a salt based auto-chlorine generator plays to what people will want and like after using so this time its being done right.

Auto dozing is the way to go, but claiming it dramatically reduces the cost by the tune of $800 per year was lying.

BTW what does the system add to the cost of the tub?

[hottublady]

I will say this again... I believe the sales person was talking about SILKBALANCE and if so it would indeed be around $800/yr with Silkbalance, ionizor, shock & chlorine.

[dark rider]

I will say this again... I believe the sales person was talking about SILKBALANCE and if so it would indeed be around $800/yr with Silkbalance, ionizor, shock & chlorine.

Well, for disclosure purposes, I can no longer claim that I'm unbiased, since I just purchased a new ACE equipped Grandee this past weekend (delivery in 4-6 weeks)! I am hopeful though that ACE will meet or exceed my expectations. My dealer pushes ACE pretty hard, even if he has to discount it pretty significantly, because it also makes their lives easier. He estimated up to 80% of their service calls were water related, and he has yet to have to make a single water relateed service call for an ACE equipped tub, with more than 20 in the field.

I think we can all agree that $800 is at the extreme end of chemical savings, and that the average user would not see that kind of savings. However, it is possible that Silkbalance users would also gravitate toward the ACE system due to the softer water, which Silkbalance also relies on. When we wet tested both times at HotSpring, the ACE equipped Envoy was noticeably softer than their other tubs, which were traditional dichlor/chlorine. The water in it had not been changed since it hit the floor (8 months), and it looked and felt every bit as clean as the water in a new Grandee on the floor that had a fresh fill. Neither tub had a noticeable smell. Granted none of their tubs sees heavy volume, but I was still impressed after seeing the reports from those that can't maintain consistent readings for more than a few months at a time without refilling (most likely due to overdosing). ACE isn't magic, and it won't eliminate your need to test perform any maintenance (filters, salt, and electrodes), but it should make maintenance a lot easier, provide for softer water with fewer chemicals, and save some $$ in the process. Either way, I'll be sure to report back with my impressions based on my actual findings once I'm up and running for a while.

[Joe G.]

I will say this again... I believe the sales person was talking about SILKBALANCE and if so it would indeed be around $800/yr with Silkbalance, ionizor, shock & chlorine.

Well, for disclosure purposes, I can no longer claim that I'm unbiased, since I just purchased a new ACE equipped Grandee this past weekend (delivery in 4-6 weeks)! I am hopeful though that ACE will meet or exceed my expectations. My dealer pushes ACE pretty hard, even if he has to discount it pretty significantly, because it also makes their lives easier. He estimated up to 80% of their service calls were water related, and he has yet to have to make a single water relateed service call for an ACE equipped tub, with more than 20 in the field.

I think we can all agree that $800 is at the extreme end of chemical savings, and that the average user would not see that kind of savings. However, it is possible that Silkbalance users would also gravitate toward the ACE system due to the softer water, which Silkbalance also relies on. When we wet tested both times at HotSpring, the ACE equipped Envoy was noticeably softer than their other tubs, which were traditional dichlor/chlorine. The water in it had not been changed since it hit the floor (8 months), and it looked and felt every bit as clean as the water in a new Grandee on the floor that had a fresh fill. Neither tub had a noticeable smell. Granted none of their tubs sees heavy volume, but I was still impressed after seeing the reports from those that can't maintain consistent readings for more than a few months at a time without refilling (most likely due to overdosing). ACE isn't magic, and it won't eliminate your need to test perform any maintenance (filters, salt, and electrodes), but it should make maintenance a lot easier, provide for softer water with fewer chemicals, and save some $$ in the process. Either way, I'll be sure to report back with my impressions based on my actual findings once I'm up and running for a while.

I've been shopping around the NY Metro area for a 2010 Grandee w/ACE System, Cover Cradle/Cover, steps. I was quoted ~ $10.6K for the Grandee and ~$9K for the Vanguard.

Are these good prices in your opinion?

[chem geek]

Is it true that the ACE system generates more than just chlorine? I was told that the diamond ionization process is unique in that it produces chlorine (not dichlor; ie no CYA), Hydrogen Peroxide, and MPS. I've read here that hydrogen peroxide and chlorine have somewhat offsetting effects, but I'm guessing since they can achieve effective sanitation levels from just the salt alone, this wouldn't matter, as neither is harmful. Thoughts?

It does not produce MPS which is non-chlorine shock where MPS stands for monopersulfate. ACE is basically a saltwater chlorine generator, and it is true that having it use low salt levels and special electrodes it also produces a little more hydroxyl radicals and some of these combine to form hydrogen peroxide. And yes, hydrogen peroxide and chlorine aren't compatible so the hydrogen peroxide will combine with chlorine to form salt and oxygen. The net, net result of all this is some chlorine production, just as with a regular saltwater chlorine generator. They can make some claims about more going on in the cell, but in the bulk spa water you've still got chlorine. Any saltwater chlorine generator system is going to be somewhat similar in terms of producing chlorine that lasts in the spa water except that some of the others require higher salt levels to operate.

You may need to be careful if you don't have any CYA in the water since any chlorine level will be stronger. If you are measuring anything higher than 0.6 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) when using ACE, then this is stronger than using the Dichlor-then-bleach method with 4 ppm FC and 30 ppm CYA (at 104ºF).

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I've been shopping around the NY Metro area for a 2010 Grandee w/ACE System, Cover Cradle/Cover, steps. I was quoted ~ $10.6K for the Grandee and ~$9K for the Vanguard.

Are these good prices in your opinion?

Since the Ace goes for about $1k or so from what most post here and the package includes a lifter and steps I would say those are definitely good prices.

[waterbear]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

[dark rider]

I'm certainly not a science guy, so I'll leave the chemistry debate up to you all. My primary concern is whether or not the ACE saltwater system will prove to be a reliable, low maintenance system that prevents the need to handle/store/measure harsh chemicals on a regular basis. If it can do that while maintaining effective sanintation levels with softer water and also promote extended drain intervals, than it will be more than worthwhile IMO. Sure there are other systems out there for hot tubs, but I like the fact that HotSpring didn't rush the ACE system to the market. If they were willing to test it for 3 years without even hinting to most of their dealer network that it was in existance, I have to be hopeful that they took the time to get it right. I'll know soon enough, as I should be taking delivery in a couple of weeks!

[waterbear]

I'm certainly not a science guy, so I'll leave the chemistry debate up to you all. My primary concern is whether or not the ACE saltwater system will prove to be a reliable, low maintenance system that prevents the need to handle/store/measure harsh chemicals on a regular basis. If it can do that while maintaining effective sanintation levels with softer water and also promote extended drain intervals, than it will be more than worthwhile IMO. Sure there are other systems out there for hot tubs, but I like the fact that HotSpring didn't rush the ACE system to the market. If they were willing to test it for 3 years without even hinting to most of their dealer network that it was in existance, I have to be hopeful that they took the time to get it right. I'll know soon enough, as I should be taking delivery in a couple of weeks!

The answer to your question would be a qualified yes. It is basically a salt water chlorine generator (all marketing hype aside) and these do simply pool or spa maintenance. However, the initial costs are much greater, there are maintenance costs involved, and they do not eliminate the need for water testing or other water balance chemicals (which is where most owners make mistakes! You still need to test your water on a regular basis and make adjustments to water balance parameters!). The ONLY thing they do is manufacture the chlorine in the tub. Period! They do not walk the dog, cure cancer, or promote world peace so take the marketing hype with a grain of salt! They do not have any effect on other chemical levels except pH, which will tend to rise a bit more so more acid might be needed.

[Hot Spring Ace]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

Diamonds and graphite are not the same as you undoubtedly know. They may both be made of carbon, but the physical properties are completely different. Likewise the electrical properties are drastically different. They're not graphite electrodes, there is no play on words here or marketing hype as you had suspected. The difference in the crystal lattice makes the difference. The diamond crystal allows for a significant increase in the electro-chemical potential of the system.

Graphite (1.1 ev limit) will make bromine only.

Titanium (1.4 ev limit) will make chlorine and bromine only.

Diamond (3+ ev) will make form ozone, hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, bromine, and other peroxides depending on the water composition.

Sodium bisulfate added to water gives sodium bisulfate. However, when an electro potential of 2.01 ev (electro volts) is applied to the solution, monopersulfate is formed. This is not theoretical but simply electrochemistry. Diamond technology is supported by over 15 years of research in advanced oxidation, not just marketing hype and its proving itself quite well in this application.

[spawn]

Interesting info from the experts discussing how the system works. As for us consumers, I have a couple of questions:

Is it still necessary to balance the water after a fill? If so, does the system simplify this in any way or reduce the amount of cheicals needed?

Does the system have a sensor to monitor the level of chlorine in the tub and adjust its output accordingly? Ot does the user pick a likely setting and it produces chlorine at a set rate?

Do the electrodes ever need to be replaced? What is the warranty for the ACE system?

Thanks!

[dark rider]

Interesting info from the experts discussing how the system works. As for us consumers, I have a couple of questions:

Is it still necessary to balance the water after a fill? If so, does the system simplify this in any way or reduce the amount of cheicals needed?

Does the system have a sensor to monitor the level of chlorine in the tub and adjust its output accordingly? Ot does the user pick a likely setting and it produces chlorine at a set rate?

Do the electrodes ever need to be replaced? What is the warranty for the ACE system?

Thanks!

Agreed, I have a feeling it's about to get interesting! I'll try to answer some of your questions, since they mirrored many of my own...

You have to balance after every fill, but with extended drain intervals, this will likely be half as often (6-12 months versus 3-6 months). I think the targets are a bit different from the norms as well, since after use of the Calcium remover (Vanishing Act), you will have very low Calcium Hardness levels. I believe TA is kept on the lower side of normal as well to prevent scaling.

The system does not monitor chlorine, but does monitor the amount of salt remaining and notify the user when more salt needs to be added. Basically, as you suggested, it has settings based on both tub size and frequency of use, so once you have your frequency down based on testing, you should only need to deviate when usage changes. It has a boost mode for parties, or you can change the setting up or down, for extended high or low use periods. It doesn't eliminate the need to test, especially initially, but you shouldn't have to test nearly as often once you've got your usage patterns down.

The electrodes will need to be replaced at some point, but my dealer seems to think they will last 5-7 years or more based on what he's seen. I think it ran about $300 to replace all three. The warranty is for 3 years and should cover the replacement any of the components, including the electrodes, if they fail during the warranty, provided the required maintenance was done (soaking them in the PH down water solution).

[spawn]

Thanks for reponding dark rider.

It sounds like the balancing is pretty much the same but once set up and dialled in there would be no need to add sanitizer or salt until notified that salt was low.

Sounds like without the sensor there is still a bit of operator involvement for party or short term change of use, kinda like the bromine floater folks do by teaking the discharge temporarily.

So after intial purchase the maintenance cost would be about $300 every 6 +/- years to swap out electrodes.

I had not heard about soaking the electrodes in pH down. How long do they soak and how long is the recommended interval - just with a water change?

[spawn]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

Diamonds and graphite are not the same as you undoubtedly know. They may both be made of carbon, but the physical properties are completely different. Likewise the electrical properties are drastically different. They're not graphite electrodes, there is no play on words here or marketing hype as you had suspected. The difference in the crystal lattice makes the difference. The diamond crystal allows for a significant increase in the electro-chemical potential of the system.

Graphite (1.1 ev limit) will make bromine only.

Titanium (1.4 ev limit) will make chlorine and bromine only.

Diamond (3+ ev) will make form ozone, hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, bromine, and other peroxides depending on the water composition.

Sodium bisulfate added to water gives sodium bisulfate. However, when an electro potential of 2.01 ev (electro volts) is applied to the solution, monopersulfate is formed. This is not theoretical but simply electrochemistry. Diamond technology is supported by over 15 years of research in advanced oxidation, not just marketing hype and its proving itself quite well in this application.

Ace it sounds like you know your stuff. I suppose that as a consumer these fine points are not so important to me ,but on the other hand I am curious about how different things work. I understand that the diamond electrodes produce ozone, hydrogner peroxide, chlorine, bromine and other peroxides and MPS if sodium biosulfate is added.

How do these chemicals interact in the tub? Are they all avaialble and equally effective at sanitizing or oxidizing? Are they all produced at meaningful levels or do they just happen to occur? Is there any cancellation of effect?

As for the MPS, does the consumer just add the sodium biosulfate at the time of filling and then alwasy have MPS available or just add it when MPS is desired for some reason?

[dark rider]

I had not heard about soaking the electrodes in pH down. How long do they soak and how long is the recommended interval - just with a water change?

They give you an empty bottle to measure out the ratio of water to pH down, since it's a dilluted mixture, and the soak interval is 10 mins every 3 months. They recommend doing when cleaning your filters.

[waterbear]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

Diamonds and graphite are not the same as you undoubtedly know. They may both be made of carbon, but the physical properties are completely different. Likewise the electrical properties are drastically different. They're not graphite electrodes, there is no play on words here or marketing hype as you had suspected. The difference in the crystal lattice makes the difference. The diamond crystal allows for a significant increase in the electro-chemical potential of the system.

Graphite (1.1 ev limit) will make bromine only.

Titanium (1.4 ev limit) will make chlorine and bromine only.

Diamond (3+ ev) will make form ozone, hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, bromine, and other peroxides depending on the water composition.

Sodium bisulfate added to water gives sodium bisulfate. However, when an electro potential of 2.01 ev (electro volts) is applied to the solution, monopersulfate is formed. This is not theoretical but simply electrochemistry. Diamond technology is supported by over 15 years of research in advanced oxidation, not just marketing hype and its proving itself quite well in this application.

[waterbear]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

Diamonds and graphite are not the same as you undoubtedly know. They may both be made of carbon, but the physical properties are completely different. Likewise the electrical properties are drastically different. They're not graphite electrodes, there is no play on words here or marketing hype as you had suspected. The difference in the crystal lattice makes the difference. The diamond crystal allows for a significant increase in the electro-chemical potential of the system.

Graphite (1.1 ev limit) will make bromine only.

actually,if you use carbon electrodes and run a current through a salt solution you will make chlorine at one electrode and hydrogen at the other. It's a simple high school chemistry experiemnt that is done with a glass of salt water, some carbon rods from a couple of batteries, and a storage battery. A few drops of OTO in the water confirm that the chlorine is being produced at one electrode. You cannot make bromine unless you also have a source of bromide ions in the water (usually sodium bromide but can be and organic bromine)

Titanium (1.4 ev limit) will make chlorine and bromine only.

Diamond (3+ ev) will make form ozone, hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, bromine, and other peroxides depending on the water composition.

I am intrigued by how ozone is produced by diamond electrodes. Ozone needs dry conditions and cannot be produced IN water but needs to be ADDED to the water. That is why the better corona discharge type of ozone generators have drying tubes to remove any humidity from the generation chamber.

Are you saying that diamond electrodes can change water into ozone? Shades of alchemy here or perhaps there is a cold plasma ozone generator in this system. If so the price is certainly a bargain! Even so, I do not believe that even cold plasma generation of ozone can occur in water!

Sodium bisulfate added to water gives sodium bisulfate. However, when an electro potential of 2.01 ev (electro volts) is applied to the solution, monopersulfate is formed. This is not theoretical but simply electrochemistry. Diamond technology is supported by over 15 years of research in advanced oxidation, not just marketing hype and its proving itself quite well in this application.

Actually, sodium bisulfate dissociates in water to form sodium ions and sulfuric acid (which is why we use it as a dry acid). Please explain the pathway by which sodium ions and sulfuric acid are electrolyzed to MPS or potassium monopersulfate (not to mention the absence of potassium!). Is it possible that the sulfuric acid reacts with the hydrogen peroxide that forms (before the chlorine has a chance to destroy it) to form peroxymonosulfuric acid? I don't think so since this is usually from the reaction of peroxide and chlorosulfonic acid which can be formed by the reaction of hydrochloric acid on sulfur trioxide. However, sulfur trioxide is not formed by electroylsys but by pyrolysis of sodium bisulfate which cannot occur in the cell, diamond electrode or not!

Perhaps some other peroxyacid is being formed instead of MPS?

Also, just because something is being formed in the reaction cell does not mean it is an end product. It can be an intermediate with a very short lifespan and no activity in the water to speak of.

If you could offer an explanation of the actual pathway of formation I would be most interested and not just some marketing hype of theoretical chemical reactions that do not occur in the real world.

[dark rider]

My dealer opened the equipment bay up on one of the ACE models, since I had a lot of questions, and one thing I can verify is that HotSpring does in fact disconnect the Corona Discharge Ozonator in ACE models due to the claimed production of ozone by the ACE system. They leave the components in place, in case you would ever want to convert back, but do not recommend running the ozonator with ACE installed.

[waterbear]

My dealer opened the equipment bay up on one of the ACE models, since I had a lot of questions, and one thing I can verify is that HotSpring does in fact disconnect the Corona Discharge Ozonator in ACE models due to the claimed production of ozone by the ACE system. They leave the components in place, in case you would ever want to convert back, but do not recommend running the ozonator with ACE installed.

Ozone is unnecessary and counterproductive with any SWCG. It is really most beneficial with bromine, since it will help regenerate hypobromous acid from the bromine reserve in the water instead of destroying active sanitizer like it does in a chlorine system. Also, since ozone is a toxic compound there is not supposed to be any residual ozone in the water when it enters the tub (but this is not often the case because of cost considerations).

[spawn]

May I point out that 'diamond electrodes" could also be called carbon electrodes (diamonds are, after all, carbon) and carbon electrodes are what are used in competing SW chlorine and bromine generators, such as the Genesis, and are nothing remarkable. It's just marketing hype. As chem geek noted, to say that potassium monopersulate is produced if sodium bisulfite is added to the water is bad chemistry at best! (and I am being kind here). Basically, the unit produces chlorine. Any other species are theoretical at best.

Diamonds and graphite are not the same as you undoubtedly know. They may both be made of carbon, but the physical properties are completely different. Likewise the electrical properties are drastically different. They're not graphite electrodes, there is no play on words here or marketing hype as you had suspected. The difference in the crystal lattice makes the difference. The diamond crystal allows for a significant increase in the electro-chemical potential of the system.

Graphite (1.1 ev limit) will make bromine only.

actually,if you use carbon electrodes and run a current through a salt solution you will make chlorine at one electrode and hydrogen at the other. It's a simple high school chemistry experiemnt that is done with a glass of salt water, some carbon rods from a couple of batteries, and a storage battery. A few drops of OTO in the water confirm that the chlorine is being produced at one electrode. You cannot make bromine unless you also have a source of bromide ions in the water (usually sodium bromide but can be and organic bromine)

Titanium (1.4 ev limit) will make chlorine and bromine only.

Diamond (3+ ev) will make form ozone, hydrogen peroxide, chlorine, bromine, and other peroxides depending on the water composition.

I am intrigued by how ozone is produced by diamond electrodes. Ozone needs dry conditions and cannot be produced IN water but needs to be ADDED to the water. That is why the better corona discharge type of ozone generators have drying tubes to remove any humidity from the generation chamber.

Are you saying that diamond electrodes can change water into ozone? Shades of alchemy here or perhaps there is a cold plasma ozone generator in this system. If so the price is certainly a bargain! Even so, I do not believe that even cold plasma generation of ozone can occur in water!

Sodium bisulfate added to water gives sodium bisulfate. However, when an electro potential of 2.01 ev (electro volts) is applied to the solution, monopersulfate is formed. This is not theoretical but simply electrochemistry. Diamond technology is supported by over 15 years of research in advanced oxidation, not just marketing hype and its proving itself quite well in this application.

Actually, sodium bisulfate dissociates in water to form sodium ions and sulfuric acid (which is why we use it as a dry acid). Please explain the pathway by which sodium ions and sulfuric acid are electrolyzed to MPS or potassium monopersulfate (not to mention the absence of potassium!). Is it possible that the sulfuric acid reacts with the hydrogen peroxide that forms (before the chlorine has a chance to destroy it) to form peroxymonosulfuric acid? I don't think so since this is usually from the reaction of peroxide and chlorosulfonic acid which can be formed by the reaction of hydrochloric acid on sulfur trioxide. However, sulfur trioxide is not formed by electroylsys but by pyrolysis of sodium bisulfate which cannot occur in the cell, diamond electrode or not!

Perhaps some other peroxyacid is being formed instead of MPS?

Also, just because something is being formed in the reaction cell does not mean it is an end product. It can be an intermediate with a very short lifespan and no activity in the water to speak of.

If you could offer an explanation of the actual pathway of formation I would be most interested and not just some marketing hype of theoretical chemical reactions that do not occur in the real world.

Wow waterbear, Hot Spring Ace had me convinced he knew his stuff but you sure schooled him. I wonder if he will be back to reply to your questions and mine? I thought maybe he helped engineer the system but it seems maybe he was just passing on some promo info that he didn't really understand.

[spawn]

I had not heard about soaking the electrodes in pH down. How long do they soak and how long is the recommended interval - just with a water change?

They give you an empty bottle to measure out the ratio of water to pH down, since it's a dilluted mixture, and the soak interval is 10 mins every 3 months. They recommend doing when cleaning your filters.

That doesn't seem too bad, just a little extra maintenance. Although I thought Hot Spring recommended cleaning the filters every month. I remember when I was considering Hot Springs the idea of a monthly cleaning of five filters seemed a bit of a hassle compared to cleaning one as per other spas, but was part of the deal when going with the no-by-pass filtration. Should the electrodes be soaked whenever filters are cleaned or just every three months regardless? The output setting has no impact on need for cleaning?

[spawn]

Still eager to learn more about the ACE system, if anyone wants to chime in. From my perspective it seems that it could save the owner the task of adding bleach or dichlor after a soak, similar to a bromine feeder. As for saving $ with chemicals, maybe it would for the silk balance user as hottublady suggested, but not for me. I spend well under $50 / year for sanitizer so even just the $300 cost of electrode replacement spread over 6 years would be more than I would spend and this doesn't even include the considerable cost to purchase the unit. For some buyers, I am sure the conveninece is worth the expense to them, although it really isn't a set it and forget it system. As for better feeling water I think many tub owners would be surprised to learn that there was something wrong with the way their water feels. I'll conceed it may feel different, but I am not so sure about better. I suppose if someone wanted a different feel and wanted the economy of not having an ACE sytem he could toss in $3 worth or borates when he filled.

This definitely looks better than the automated system that Hot Springs put out a few years ago that used Baqua. What would really be nice is if the system could sense chlorine demand and automatically intrroduce the required amount of chlorine. I would love to see that the next time Hot Spring comes up with an automated santizing system.