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dark rider

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Everything posted by dark rider

  1. I'm sorry, but $11,100 is too much for a Vanguard in any market stateside... The $9100 delivered with the options/extras you listed would be much more reasonable. Spa Guru raises some legitimate concerns. If the dealer is charging you $2K for delivery, what's he going to charge for maintenance calls? Even as a Hot Spring owner myself, I think I'd start shopping the competition, if the dealer isn't willing to be reasonable! FWIW, I paid just under the $11,100 figure for a 2010 Grandee with ACE, the Uprite lifter and Everwood steps, as well as startup chems and delivery.
  2. I've got full faith that if HotSpring has to make a design change to prolong cell life, they will make the change and any updates under warranty, even if it's outside the 1 year period. Even though I had a cell fail on me, I can say that the technology itself works flawlessly. If you take the time to balance your water up front, you literally have to add little to no chemicals afterwards. I'm going on 6 months with my current fill, and I haven't even had to restabilize pH, and my FC is always in the acceptable range. After replacement of the cell (not sure if they changed the tube as well), I actually had to turn my usage level down to 2 with my Grandee (less than when it was new), because it was producing too much chlorine. It makes maintenance almost carefree. I check/clean filters every 30-60 days, and test water once every 2 weeks, but otherwise it's just use it and enjoy! Overall, I couldn't be happier.
  3. I agree that this thread has moved far off the topic, so this will likely be my last post to this thread. Too many agendas at work.... The one thing I will correct is Hot Water's assumption that filters are incapable of removing bacteria and pathogens, which would be true of paper filter media, but HotSpring doesn't use paper media. They use a ceramic mesh filter, which flows more water, lasts longer, and is known to remove some bacteria and pathogens. That's why ceramic filtration is also used in many countries for drinking water filtration. With paper filters, I agree that no-bypass filtration would be little more than gimmick. I'm not going to say that it's the be all end all, but like ozone, when used in conjunction with a known sanitizer can help. Reliability IMO is something that is earned. HotSpring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance, etc. have been around for some time, and have earned the recognition they deserve, largely because they are a reliable brands that the manufacturers have stood behind. While Strong is a newcomer that uses decent parts, they have not earned a positive reputation yet. Only time will tell what their fate will be... Will they be remembered as just the last of a long line of Costco failed spa manufacturers, or will they rise above and earn a place among the reputable brands? Personally, I wish them luck. Competition among manufacturers is a good thing, as it helps keep costs somewhat in line. After shopping comparable spas though, I didn't hesitate to drop the extra money on my Grandee. I wanted the extra size, and added features I couldn't get elsewhere (ACE SWCG and Moto Massage). I looked at the Costco tubs online, but after wet testing several tubs, knew I'd never buy one that I hadn't wet tested, regardless of price. Jet pressure, type of jets used, seat size/fitment, etc. is different even among different tubs from the same manufacturer. At the end of the day, the only one that has to be happy with your tub is you! Back to our regular scheduled programming...
  4. First of all, you seem to be mistaking high end with build quality, which are usually two totally different things. With nearly all things manufactured, features, capability, expandability, etc. define high end, and not necessarily build quality. I've seen some instances where manufacturers skimp on materials in their lower end models, but with electrical parts, there is usually no difference. Balboa makes decent basic no frills controllers and main controls, and for the most part I've heard good things about their reliability. However, I have yet to see a Balboa controller that could do half of what the IQ2020 is capable of. FWIW, most of the smaller independent tub mfgrs that I've seen also use the Balboa components to keep costs down. From what I've seen the proprietary HotSpring controllers are about twice as expensive, even when ordered through online resellers, so no argument that they're going to be more expensive to replace, if you do have a problem, provided it is out of warranty. No bypass filtration isn't a marketing gimmick, nor is it easy to implement. Bottom suction is easy to implement, which is why the majority of manufacturers use it! Your spa is clean, because the majority of the filtration is happening when you are not in the tub, which is the vast majority of the time. However, while you are in the tub, your spa is recirculating what is essentially unfiltered waste water. Provided your chemicals are properly balanced, it will kill the bacteria nearly immediately. However, it still doesn't eliminate the funk factor of sweat, urine, etc., which doesn't sit on the surface like oil. Personally, I want my spa to be cleaning the water while I'm it, not after I get out! No bypass filtration does require more filters than bottom suction spas, because a traditional single filter spa cannot move enough water without seeing a reduction in power from the jets, unless it has one or more bottom suction fittings. The tradeoff is dealing with the additional filters, but the fact that they last more than 5 years before needing to be replaced, and can be rinsed in a dishwasher, makes it very easy to service them. A written warranty is a guarantee that if something does go wrong, the company will fix it. How does that not equate to a company standing behind its product? Yes, warranties are factored into the selling price, but company's with the best warranty will also strive to have the highest reliability, because any fixes will be at their expense! It's not to say that a company with a lesser warranty or a lower overall cost can't be every bit as reliable. However, it's a gamble that the buyer has to take. The written warranty shifts that risk to the manufacturer. I've never seen an Evo in person, so I can't comment on its build quality. I'm sure it is good enough, but I think it's a stretch to say the cabinets are better, when they rely on perimeter insulation rather than full foam. Yes, it's easier to service, but it also doesn't insulate as well. I shopped a lot of different brands before I bought my HotSpring, and if there was better made tub out there, I didn't find it. The Everwood that HotSpring uses is a well made, good looking product. Have you ever lifted one of their panels, or better yet the Everwood steps, which weigh about 80lbs? Personally, I'm not a fan of fake stone looking cabinets. If I were going to that route, I would have used a real stone surround. The fake wood that most manufacturers are using these days is a necessary evil to promote longevity, and ease of maintenance, but real wood still looks the best IMO. HotSpring is not a cheap tub, but you do realize that their lower end models start at around $5K? The other Watkins brands are cheaper still. Your Evo is similarly sized to a HotSpring Vanguard or a Limelite Pulse, either of which should be available for around $7500, which includes the subpanel and installation. Start factoring those costs into the Evo lineup, and your sacrificing local service, lesser warranty, lower end parts, less jet variety, a circulation pump, and noisy inefficient perimeter insulation. My post wasn't intended to bash Evo, as I have little experience with them, but rather to educate consumers. I don't think you saved anywhere near as much as you think you did, and depending on the gamble you took with reliability, it may actually end up costing you more in the long run!
  5. I can't speak for all of the brands, but HotSpring doesn't use the same brand parts as Evolution/Strong. Most of their parts are proprietary, and unique to HotSpring. This includes all of the jets, the Wavemaster main pumps and SilentFlo circ pumps, ceramic mesh filters which last 5+ years, and the titanium heater. The IQ2020 controller is one of the few outsourced parts, and it's made by Invensys not Balboa, and is higher end than anything Balboa makes. For reference, the Evolution tubs are using the VS (Value Series) Balboa controllers, which are the lowest end Balboa makes. Compare warranties, and I think you'll get an idea of who stands behind their tubs more. Again, don't fool yourself into thinking your getting a more expensive tub with the Costco Evolution line. They've proven to be reliable economy models, but the lower end tubs lack circ pumps, use primarily or only bullet jets (little hydrotherapy value), are underpowered due to the number of jets versus pump size and rely on bottom suctions (unfiltered water) when pumps are running. This isn't a bash, and doesn't mean Evolution/Strong makes bad tubs, but definitely not an apples to apples comparison against HotSpring! If you want a similar value oriented tub made by Watkins (parent company to HotSpring), you need to look at Limelight, Hot Spot, Tiger River, etc. Features will likely be similar to the Evolution tubs, and price won't be far off the mark.
  6. Tubber, I had to get my cell replaced with the newer part as well. Mine had the exact same symptom as yours. Registered low salt, and progressively got worse, until it quit registering salt altogether. I haven't had a single problem with the new cell, and it only took a few minutes for the dealer to swap it out.
  7. I don't think that there is any doubt that dealer mark up is high, because dealer overhead is also high. However, as a question of worth or value, only the individual can answer that question. Costco certainly does have a different marketing/sales model than most spa dealers, but that doesn't mean that everything you buy at Costco is a screaming deal either. In many instances, I've been able to find stuff sold at Costco even cheaper online, especially with electronics and high end purchases. I think Costco's prices are fair for what you get with their tubs, especially the Evolution series by Strong. However, don't fool yourself into thinking your saving yourself thousands just because you bought from Costco! The recognized top tier manufacturers have similarly priced value line models that aren't far off the prices that the Evolutions series sells for. I just saw Costco added an $8500 tub with saltwater that would compete nicely against HotSpring's Vanguard, which can also be had in that price range. Personally, I spent a good amount of money for my HotSpring Grandee with ACE, but I have no regrets whatsoever. I use the tub at least 3-5X a week year round, and I'll likely hold on to the tube for a minimum of 10-15 years. Not to say the tub will be problem free that entire time, but I also have a local dealer who gives me great service when I need it (already replaced a led controller behind a moto massage under warranty). When you buy through Costco, that's the one thing IMO you sacrifice. While, I'm sure Strong stands behind its products, the lack of dealer network means that they're going to independent spa techs for service, which may be hit or miss. Things will get interesting now that Strong is offering higher end and more costly tubs to Costco though.
  8. Tubber, I'd be interested in seeing pics if you get a chance. Is it a hollow bubble, or is the entire step warping? I also got my Grandee and Everwood steps a year ago, but haven't noticed any defects in the steps. My tub is under a deck though, so it only sees maybe 2-3 hours of direct sunlight.
  9. Only you can answer the question as to "worth?" I think you could do a little better on pricing for the Pulse, but I don't see the Pulse as a direct competitor to the Optima either. I'd think the Pulse would be more comparable to the Chelsea. If you're looking for a more even competitor, I'd put the HotSpring Grandee up against the Optima. Have you wet tested either of the tubs, and what were your impressions?
  10. The lounger obviously takes up more seating room than a standard seat, but it doesn't sound like you're strapped for seats/space, so that should be a non-issue since it will usually just be 2 of you. The other negative is that females or anyone with a higher percentage of body fat is prone to float in a lounger, making it an awkward experience. If the proportions aren't right (leg bend location), it can also not be as enjoyable. Finally, take into account entry/exit. You will want to avoid putting the steps on the lounger side of the tub, so make sure it works with your existing plan. I wet tested the Sovereign when we were shopping, and they had the steps on the lounger side, making it an interesting balancing act getting in and out of the tub. Personally, I don't think a well laid out tub needs a lounger. I the barrier free seating in my Grandee! It's great for stretching out and you aren't as limited as to where the jets are going to hit you, as you are in chair formed seating or in loungers. With the recessed jetting, I can literally sit in any position and target specific muscles with the jets. I'm sure you will love the Relay if you go with it, but if you get the chance, try and wet test both a lounger model and a non-lounger model. A good non-lounger comparison would be the HotSpring Vanguard or Limelight Pulse. Both are slightly bigger than the Relay, but not by much at all (3" on the Vanguard and 5" on the Pulse). I was shopping at the end of last summer, and pricing at that point for the Vanguard was only about $1500 more than what you were quoted for the Relay. If that's not too much of a stretch, and it would fit your needs, I'd highly recommend it. The Vanguard is basically a smaller version of the Grandee. You'd get dual and single moto-massage and rotary jets, a circ pump(quieter 24 hour filtration and ozone), better controls and lighting, and the option to upgrade to salt and tri-x filters(would likely be complimentary if you ask the dealer).
  11. Seems like a good deal to me at about $2500 less than the HotSpring Sovereign, especially if they will include ozone at that price. You're giving up a dedicated circ. pump, tri-x filters, and moto-massage, but still get HotSpring quality and the directional and rotary hydromassage jets. I find the rotary jets to be almost as good as the moto-massage personally. Have you wet tested yet, and are sure you want the lounger?
  12. Agreed, it's probably better just to get the led repaired now and be done with it! I use the lights pretty regularly, so I would notice it. I guess I just had mixed emotions about having to crack open the shell and cut into the foam for something as small as an led, since everything else is functional. The dealer has been great to work with though, and their tech seems pretty knowledgable, and didn't bat an eyelash about committing to do the work. I drained off some of the water and added fresh water to get the salt level in the middle of the green last night. It gave me an excuse to soak while doing it After letting the new cell do it's thing over night, I tested the water this morning, and FC is back to 3ppm without manual dosing. I gotta admit that, if nothing else, the salt water chlorine generator has spoiled me! It's not that manual water chemistry is that hard, but constantly doing water tests and having to add chemicals regularly is a PITA! Before the cell went south, I got to the point where I only needed to check the water once every other week, and even then it was usually perfect. It's wonderful not having to shock, or worry about leaving town as well. Has anyone actually checked the pricing of the cell itself? I didn't get a receipt, since it was warranty work, but am wondering what the cost will be to replace, when it's on my dime? The good news is that it was a very simple swap out.
  13. Service call was scheduled today, and as expected, the dealer replaced the salt cell. As soon as the tech swapped out the old cell with a new one, we ran a new salt test, and immediately it was registering in the mid to high green area rather than the bottom of yellow on the salt indicator. He said it's the first one they've seen go bad, so hopefully it was just a fluke. The led replacement will be more problematic. He thought it might be the main hub, which he checked, but unfortunately he thinks it's either the separate relay at the light or the led itself. He said it will likely take about 4 hours of work to do it, since it requires removing the cover lifter, getting the panel off, digging some foam out, refoaming and replacing the corner panel. I'm still debating whether I want them to do it now or wait until closer to warranty expiration... decisions, decisions?
  14. ACE warranty is 1 year, so it's definitely still covered. Calcium is 20ppm, pH has stayed at 7.3 since it was delivered. Cell is definitely still working, just not registering salt, and production of FC is definitely reduced. I'm guessing the dealer will replace it.
  15. I'd have them pull the panel and do the repair the right way, even if they have to replace the side panel. Cutting a hole in the side or do nothing? Really? You paid top dollar for a premium spa. Demand premium service to back it up! I have a single screwy LED on my 2010 Grandee, but it's behind one of the MotoMassage units, so it's relatively easy to get to. I think the BellaFontana LEDs are likely the toughest to get too. Warranty on lighting is for 2 years, so you could wait a bit longer, if you really wanted, but don't let the tub fall out of warrant without having them make the repair.
  16. I've been pretty much able to run on ACE alone with very little manual adding of either dichlor or bleach. The only times I've added dichlor were at initial fill up and to maintain some CYA reserve. I've used bleach to offset during parties when I didn't want to have to rely on the boost function. Otherwise, it's been all ACE. No shocking necessary. When I measure FC, I was getting 3.0 pretty consistently prior to the cell acting flaky. Now, it's down to about 2.0, but still is keeping the water nice and clear. Use level is set at 4, and I use the tub pretty much nightly for just under an hour. Sometimes my wife and/or kids join me, but usually it's just me, because they think it's too hot for summer use.
  17. Well, I'm finally getting around to having my local dealer replace the LED behind one of my MotoMassage units, but that wasn't the primary reason for the service call. The cell in my ACE Salt Water Generator appears to be going south after less than a year. Hopefully, it's just a fluke, but it does leave me cautious about long term reliability. My water was balanced religiously throughout (Taylor K2006), and the cell is still outputting usable chlorine (albeit reduced), but the sensor appears to be nonfunctional. It started giving me low salt warnings about a week ago, so I added salt, and rechecked over the course of several days. No response. I tried cleaning the cell, even though I knew it wasn't a problem, since my calcium is low, but it had no effect. I'll keep you posted after the service to let you know the outcomes. The good news is that it's still under warranty!
  18. I just leave mine set to 102F and continue to use it in the evenings, after the outside temp has dropped. I'd rather the water be hotter than the ambient temp, so that when you get out your body is nice and warm and the air feels cool! Still using my tub nightly pretty much.
  19. ACE isn't difficult, but you do need to pay extra care during the start-up procedures to ensure it functions properly. Here's my idiot's guide to ACE startup for new users or those who've been having problems: 1. Refill and repower the tub. Set temperature to 102F or higher. Ignore any ACE indications. 2. Balance the water by measuring with Taylor K-2006 test kit and adding appropriate chemicals. Pay special attention to CH, pH, and TA. Do not proceed until all 3 are in the target range! You typically won't have a problem with low CH (may cause some foaming), but high CH will cause premature failure of the ACE electrodes due to scaling and will limit chlorine production. It is important to get TA right prior to worrying about nailing your pH. If pH is in range, but TA is high, add pH down (drops both TA and pH) until pH hits 7.0ppm. At that point, aerate (turn on all jets and air diverters to max), which will cause pH to slowly rise. Keep performing until both TA and pH are in your target range. 3. Manually add 5ppm dichlor to establish CYA reserve and sanitize/oxidize waste until ACE kicks in. 4. Periodically check temperature of water. Once water reaches 102F or higher, add required amount of salt, and allow jets to circulate for 15 -20 mins. Ensure that the spa size and usage levels are correctly set in the control panel. If you do not know what your usage will be, start with either 3 or 4. 5. Take periodic manual measurements with the control panel to see if salt level is in the middle of the "green" indicator. It may initially read low, but be patient and allow at least 24 hours at 102F for salt to totally dissolve prior to adding any additional salt. 6. Continue to add dichlor to maintain 3-5ppm FC readings until the ACE system kicks in, but do not exceed more than 34ppm of total dichlor added. For reference, .9ppm of CYA is found in each 1ppm of FC you add by using dichlor, so 34ppm FC added would result in a CYA reading of 30.6ppm. Truthfully, you shouldn't need to add more than about 20ppm total of dichlor before ACE reaches and maintains 3-5ppm readings by itself in between uses with no outside chlorine added. CYA stabilized chlorine will make your FC readings more regular in between usage, so I encourage you to keep a 15ppm FC reserve. If you continue to get low readings between uses, try upping the ACE usage level. If you still cannot get ACE to maintain a 3-5ppm reading between uses without adding chlorine, it may indicate a problem with the cell. At this point, stop using dichlor, and switch over to unscented 6% OTC bleach to supplement any chlorine production by the ACE unit, until you figure out the problem. This will prevent you from getting too high of a CYA level, and will continue to oxidize/sanitize waste in your tub. 7. Kill power to the tub, and soak the ACE cell in a dilluted pH down/water mixture for 15 minutes to dissolve any build-up on the cell every 30 days or so. Re-install the cell in the filter. Re-power the tub and perform a manual salt check to make sure everything is functioning normally. 8. Use the K-2006 kit to test regularly at first (probably daily) to get your usage level sorted, and then you can revert back to weekly or bi-weekly checks. If you have heavier than usual loads, check more often, and manually dose with 6% bleach to keep FC in the 3-5ppm range. 9. Check your TA and pH at least monthly to keep your water in balance, and otherwise enjoy!
  20. Just having the tub is enough stress relief for me not to care about paying the tax on it... My Grandee wasn't cheap, but every night I soak in it confirms that it's some of the best money I've ever spent! Now, about my taxes... anyone want to do them for me? I'd rather be soaking!
  21. +1, another happy ACE user since October! You still need to balance your water upon initial fill, and I recommend maintaining a CYA reserve of 15-20ppm, but otherwise it pretty much takes care of itself. I went from testing daily at first... then to weekly, and now I'm testing bi-weekly with my Taylor K-2006. No shocking necessary, and I only have to add manual chlorine (bleach) when we have parties. I haven't changed my water since initial fill and it still looks/feels new at almost 4 months!
  22. Are those of you who are getting low FC readings with ACE maintaining any CYA in the water by initially adding dichlor? If not, the non-stabilized chlorine will read low when you do an FC test, but is actually much stronger than stabilized chlorine. That's why they don't recommend bleach alone with the dichlor/bleach method. It's also likely the reason that the poster above saw the spa clear up with only a reading of .5 ppm FC. Non-stabilized chlorine also dissipates much faster than stabilized chlorine, so that's why you're seeing a 0 reading the next day after use. I recommend running 15-20 ppm of CYA with ACE, as it should stabilize your readings in the 3-5 ppm FC range, and your FC will drop less between uses. I use my Grandee with ACE pretty much nightly. My wife joins me for the first 30 mins, and I normally soak for 45mins - 1 hour. With tub size on 8 and usage set at 4, the FC tests right at 3 ppm when I get in each night. No need to shock unless your CC gets up to 1 ppm or more, which it shouldn't with regular usage. The only time I manually add chlorine is if I'm having people over (bleach) or if my CYA has dropped (dichlor). It takes a long time for the CYA level to naturally drop though. My CYA test only really registers a drop after about 45 days.
  23. I just want to reiterate the advice that has been given. Water balance is key with any chemical regime, weather ACE or manually dosing with dichlor/bleach or bromine. You shouldn't get too worried about the cell. The high alkalinity and pH would be a concern if you had high calcium, but it doesn't sound like calcium was a problem. As Poolspaguy30 suggested, clean the cell by soaking in a dilluted solution of pH down (electrical breakers turned off) and if there are deposits, I think the cell is supposed to bubble as the pH down dissolves them. Personally, I didn't see any bubbles when I cleaned my cell, but I did it for the prescribed time anyway just as a routine precaution. Otherwise, it sounds like you're seeing chlorine production, so the cell is working. Keep the water balanced, and enjoy it!
  24. Sedro, my 2010 Grandee has a problem with the LED behind one of the MotoMassage units. All of my bartop, pillow, and underwater lighting is in sync other than the single MotoMassage LED. It doesn't light up all colors either when I auto-cycle or manually cycle. Specifically, Green, White, and Yellow do not work. Blue, Red, and Magenta work normally on this specific LED. Green makes the LED go out. White makes the LED turn Cyan. Cyan turns Blue. Yellow turns Red. It worked normally at setup, but started acting funky within the first week. I've called both HotSpring and my dealer to let them know. For now, I'm waiting until refill time (warmer months) for them to fix the problem, as they're not sure whether it is the LED or the controller. They said that it would be covered under warranty though. As is, I'm just leaving my underwater lights (tied to the Motomassage LEDs as well) manually set to Blue and have the pillows and bartop on auto-cycle, which functions normally.
  25. +1, Congrats on the Vanguard! You'll love it! I've had my 2010 Grandee for about 3 months now, and it still brings a huge smile to my face every time I use it.
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