Strong Bromine Scent And Mist From Hot Tub Water

[faromic]

Hello all, this is my first post. I'm pretty familiar with spas...My parents have had one for about 5 years...but we always seemed to have issues with water scent. I've had my own spa for the last year and I typically put the minimum amount of chemicals as advised to me by several people... I typically just keep bromine tabs in a floater and shock it with OZ tabs about once a week. It seems that after a couple weeks (maybe even sooner) the water has an extremely strong bromine scent and mist. It's tough to even breathe when sitting in the spa while the water is foaming and the mist is coming off....I check the bromine level, ph, alkalinity, etc every week and add ph up/down as required. I'm not really sure why this happens? Is there too much bromine? Is it normal to have this with bromine? Can I swictch to something else?

Thanks,

[Dr. Spa]

I'd begin by accurately describing what you're putting in the spa. For instance, you say you "typically put the minimum amount of chemicals" and "just keep bromine tabs in a floater".. are you keeping one, or one hundred tabs in the floater? Your weekly shock consists of what? 1 OZ tab, or 50? Also, what exactly are the readings for pH, TA, bromine etc (not "they're good", the actual numbers), and, how are you determining these numbers (type of test kit).

[faromic]

Sorry for the delay in response...I've been out of town on work a lot and haven't been able to actually check the levels.

I typically keep the floater half full to full but leave only one hole open...However, I forgot to refill the floater and the bromine levels were at about 0 to 1 but I still had the mist. The minimum is keeping the floater half to full, putting in 3 tabs of leisure time "OZ" shock, and spa up when I check the levels. once a month or so I will also put a couple tablespoons of leisure time "defender in"...that's it.

I checked the levels the other day and here they are:

2 TBr ppm Bromine level

20 Total alkanlity ppm

pH below 6.8

100 calcium hardness

I use the leisure time testing strips...for the most part all the levels were lower than the bottle indicated as "ideal"...However, I will then put the Leisure time "Spa Up" in to get the pH and alkanility up. The levels are then better but still the mist...As I was checking the water the other day the mist was so strong it made me cough and was tough to be around without coughing a lot...If I refill the spa it will be ok for a month or so and then the same thing again. I'm not really sure what the cause is.

Thanks

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Sorry for the delay in response...I've been out of town on work a lot and haven't been able to actually check the levels.

I typically keep the floater half full to full but leave only one hole open...However, I forgot to refill the floater and the bromine levels were at about 0 to 1 but I still had the mist. The minimum is keeping the floater half to full, putting in 3 tabs of leisure time "OZ" shock, and spa up when I check the levels. once a month or so I will also put a couple tablespoons of leisure time "defender in"...that's it.

I checked the levels the other day and here they are:

2 TBr ppm Bromine level

20 Total alkanlity ppm

pH below 6.8

100 calcium hardness

I use the leisure time testing strips...for the most part all the levels were lower than the bottle indicated as "ideal"...However, I will then put the Leisure time "Spa Up" in to get the pH and alkanility up. The levels are then better but still the mist...As I was checking the water the other day the mist was so strong it made me cough and was tough to be around without coughing a lot...If I refill the spa it will be ok for a month or so and then the same thing again. I'm not really sure what the cause is.

Thanks

High levels of bromine will make it smell strong, the low PH will definately make the strong smell and irritate the lungs, and if the bromine is low, it may smell strong as it is working hard. You may want to shock more often. i find that the tablets, which are blended with chlorine have a stronger smell than a pure bromine by far anyway.

Great reading on bromine is water bears write up on how bromine works, if you understand how it works, it may help you out a lot also.

[waterbear]

Your problem is water balance, plain and simple!

Very low pH can cause elemental bromine to form in the water (often, but not always, seen as a yellowish or brownish coloration). Elemental bromine is extremely toxic so this is not a good thing!

Get your pH up to AT LEAST 7.4 (up to 7.8) and your TA up to about 100 ppm ASAP!

Run any aeration that you have (jets, bubblers) with the spa UNCOVERED to drive off the bromine. DO NOT GO INTO THE SPA UNTIL THE pH/TA ARE UP AND THE SMELL IS GONE! ELEMENTAL BROMINE IS TOXIC.

Use 20 Mule Team Borax (white box) to raise the pH then use baking soda to raise the TA.

Borax (Sodium Tetraborate) is sold for spa use as a "water enhancer" (for example, Proteam Gentle Spa), but you want the stuff from the laundry aisle of the grocery store., It is much cheaper and does not contain dry acid to make it pH neutral. You want it to raise the pH.

The problem with using Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) AKA pH up is that it will raise both pH AND TA and, in most cases, raises the TA way too high so you have to go through the process of lowering the TA with acid and then aerating to bring the pH back up without raising the TA (which adding more pH up will do!) It it easier to raise the pH with borax first, then once it's at target test the TA and add the right amount of baking soda to bring the TA in line.

Baking Soda is Sodium Bicarbonate is Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate is TA increase. However, the Arm and Hammer stuff in the grocery store is MUCH cheaper and also MUCH purer than the stuff sold for spas! It all comes from the same company, Church and Dwight (which owns the Arm and Hammer brand).

http://www.ahperformance.com/pools-water.asp

Can't give you any dosing guidelines since you didn't say the gallons of the spa.

Make sure there is good ventilation.

You should find that this takes care of the irritating bromine 'smell'.

Also, get yourself a better test kit than the strips. For a bromine system the Taylor K-2106 is probably the best you can get for the money. When you consider how much you paid for your spa the approx. $75 for the kit is a real bargain, considering how much money it will save you in the long run and how easy and precise it is.

[faromic]

The spa is approx 350 gallons...it's a dynasty spa.

So you're saying bromine can exist (by creation as elemental bromine) without even putting bromine in? of course, this bromine is toxic...

What is Use 20 Mule Team Borax (white box) and where do I get it? Where I get chemicals? Leisure time makes a product called spa up and alkalinity up that will raise these levels? Are you saying I don't/shouldn't use those and instead use the baking soda for TA? How much to use?

So Soda Ash is the pH up that leisure time or any company sells? sorry but I'm not familiar with this stuff.

What do you mean by good ventilation? My spa cover is pretty old and heavy (water absorption I'm assuming, would a new one help?)

By aerating you mean running jets or air bubbles I'm assuming? Also, how does aerating bring pH up? Should I be aerating on a regular basis with the cover off? I typically put chemicals in leave open for 30 min and close...I always assumed the smell was from too many chemicals...guess not. This information is very helpful thanks a lot!

So based on what you're telling me I don't need to buy any chemicals from the spa store besides bromine tabs and shock (they're called renew tablets from leisure time)...and maybe the scent chemical so it smells nice, correct?

[waterbear]

The spa is approx 350 gallons...it's a dynasty spa.

So you're saying bromine can exist (by creation as elemental bromine) without even putting bromine in? of course, this bromine is toxic...

You are using bromine tabs which are an organic bromine compound and bromine spas are also supposed to be started at each fill with sodium bromide to create the bromine reserve in the water (atcually bromine ions). At low ph these can form elemental bromine. Not sure why you think you are not putting bromine in the water.

What is Use 20 Mule Team Borax (white box) and where do I get it?

Plain, old fashioned borax sold at the grocery store, walmart, target, etc. found in the laundry aisle. It comes in a white box.

http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/

Where I get chemicals? Leisure time makes a product called spa up and alkalinity up that will raise these levels? Are you saying I don't/shouldn't use those and instead use the baking soda for TA? How much to use?

Alkalinity up IS baking soda!!!!!!!!!!! Read the label! Spa up is soda ash (sodium carbonate, which you can also find in the laundry aisle as Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda

http://www.greatclea...PID-33200-03020) but it is not the best thing to raise pH becasue it also raises TA, usually way too much!

Borax is much better for raising pH. You need twice as much borax as soda ash to raise pH by the same amount.

So Soda Ash is the pH up that leisure time or any company sells? sorry but I'm not familiar with this stuff. Sodium carbonate aka soda ash, aka washing soda is pH up. Baking soda is TA increaser, period!

What do you mean by good ventilation? My spa cover is pretty old and heavy (water absorption I'm assuming, would a new one help?)

Bromine can collect in an enclosed area and can get you sick. If your spa is not outside make sure there are fans and open windows when you do this! Keep the cover off the whole time

By aerating you mean running jets or air bubbles I'm assuming?

Yes

Also, how does aerating bring pH up?

Your spa is 'carbonated not unlike a bottle of seltzer. That is the carbonic acid part of the bicarbonate buffer we call TA. By aerating you are "shaking the bottle of seltzer" to make it go flat thereby reducing the amount of carbonic acid present and the pH rises. There is also less carbanic acid to convert back to bicarbonate so the TA is now lower (actually the act of adding acid to convert the bicarbonates in the water to carbonic acid lower the TA. Aeration just brings the pH back up without raising the TA again like adding an alkaline chemical would.

Should I be aerating on a regular basis with the cover off? I typically put chemicals in leave open for 30 min and close...I always assumed the smell was from too many chemicals...guess not. This information is very helpful thanks a lot!

YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR WATER PARAMERS IN LINE. Get a good test kit such as the TAYLOR k-2106. Your problem is caused by low pH/TA.

When you shock the spa you want to leave it running and uncovered until the bromine levels drop back to normal. used to take me longer thabn 30 minutes when I had a stand alone spa on bromine.

So based on what you're telling me I don't need to buy any chemicals from the spa store besides bromine tabs and shock (they're called renew tablets from leisure time)...and maybe the scent chemical so it smells nice, correct?

You can shock your spa with liquid chlorine bleach instead of the MPS (potassium monopersulfate) shock you are using, works just as well. Chlorine does not exist in a bromine system with a bromide reserve in the water. It converts the bromide ions into your active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. In fact, any oxidizer will do this be it chlorine, ozone, or MPS. The advantage of using bleach is that it forms chloride ions instead of sulfate ions like MPS. Chloride ions are a more benign constituent of TDS than sulfates and MPS is a known sensitizer that irritates many bather's skin.

You still might need some products such as sodium bromide on each fill http://www.leisureti...2&ProductID=165

and might need metal control agents if you have metals in your water. You will also need dry acid to lower pH and TA when needed.

Leiisuretime is a good brand, parent company is Advantis which is owned by Arch Chemical. Advantis and Arch have several pool and spa brands, BTW, HTH, Robarb, Rendesvous, BaquaSpa, Brilliance, and Being Aromatherapy to name their spa brands

[sc5.4]

Great info. Thanks for posting!

[faromic]

Hi I'm back...I just drained and am going to refill my spa. Can someone send me a link to water bears bromine write up? Thanks...so I should be using the bromine tablets as they are blended with chlorine and not as strong..which I do.

You can shock your spa with liquid chlorine bleach instead of the MPS (potassium monopersulfate) shock you are using, works just as well. Chlorine does not exist in a bromine system with a bromide reserve in the water. It converts the bromide ions into your active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. In fact, any oxidizer will do this be it chlorine, ozone, or MPS. The advantage of using bleach is that it forms chloride ions instead of sulfate ions like MPS. Chloride ions are a more benign constituent of TDS than sulfates and MPS is a known sensitizer that irritates many bather's skin.

Can you still do this if you don't have a bromine reserve? What happens if I have a bromine reserve and I forget to add bromine and the level drops and the reserve is used up? Do I add sodium bromide again?

So really all I need is the bromine tabs, borax, and baking soda..and check the levels..in addition to the dry acid. One last question on dry acid...can I just use leisure time spa down? will that lower both, ph and TA.

Sorry for all the long questions....but I'm trying to learn all this stuff.

THanks

[faromic]

I found water bears post...

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26324&st=0&p=116522&hl=water%20bears&fromsearch=1entry116522

[waterbear]

Hi I'm back...I just drained and am going to refill my spa. Can someone send me a link to water bears bromine write up? Thanks...so I should be using the bromine tablets as they are blended with chlorine and not as strong..which I do.

You can shock your spa with liquid chlorine bleach instead of the MPS (potassium monopersulfate) shock you are using, works just as well. Chlorine does not exist in a bromine system with a bromide reserve in the water. It converts the bromide ions into your active bromine sanitizer, hypobromous acid. In fact, any oxidizer will do this be it chlorine, ozone, or MPS. The advantage of using bleach is that it forms chloride ions instead of sulfate ions like MPS. Chloride ions are a more benign constituent of TDS than sulfates and MPS is a known sensitizer that irritates many bather's skin.

Can you still do this if you don't have a bromine reserve? What happens if I have a bromine reserve and I forget to add bromine and the level drops and the reserve is used up? Do I add sodium bromide again?

So really all I need is the bromine tabs, borax, and baking soda..and check the levels..in addition to the dry acid. One last question on dry acid...can I just use leisure time spa down? will that lower both, ph and TA.

Sorry for all the long questions....but I'm trying to learn all this stuff.

THanks

Tablets ALONE are not the right way to do bromine. Period!!!!!!!!!!! You MUST add sodium bromide on each fill at the rate of 1/2 oz per 100 gallons to create the bromide reserve. sodium bromide is REALLY CHEAP and is available in most pool and spa supplies and on many places on the internet. The initial additon of sodium bromide is to ensure that the spa starts with santizer. If there it is not added and you shock with MPS you do not have sanitized water. If you shock with chlorine you will have a chlorine spa for a bit then the chloirne is gone (bromne and chlorine are not done in the same way.) If you only use the tabs it will take several weeks before enough dissolve to create a workable bromide resirve and in the meantime you will not have sanitized water!

Once you have added the sodium bromide on initial fill you do not have to add it again if you are using tablets as they will maintain your bromide reserve. This is the three step bromine (sodium bromide, oxidizer, and tablets).

The other method for bromine is the 2 step bromime system which only uses sodium bromide and an oxidizer. It does not use tablets. It is more work and requires the regular addition of both the sodium bromide and the oxidizer (daily).

Bromine cannot be done with only tablets. Period.

Leisure time spa down IS dry acid. It's sodium bisulfate!

Leisure time also sells sodium bromide in packets.

Hope this clears it up.

[Mike0503]

It's sodium bisulfate! <----- where do you find this just wondering, found everything else but this

[quantumchromodynamics]

It's sodium bisulfate! <----- where do you find this just wondering, found everything else but this

Sodium bisulfate can be found in any pool/spa store. It is sold as dry acid. It is a granular form of pH down. I prefer muriatic acid instead of sodium bisulfate.