About To Dive In... Really Could Use Some Advice

[warren]

My wife and I are working with a landscape designer/contractor to redo our roof deck and would like to install a small spa or hot tub. We've done the structural analysis -- got the green light to go ahead with this project -- but now it comes down to the choice of tub and heating system. We've tried to do our homework and research them online, but I really could use some advice from experienced owners about some of our choices:

1. Go with a Hot Spring Jetsetter -- small, self-contained, electric, quiet... although choosing this one really means just us... no guests. Also our designer isn't thrilled with it since, relatively speaking, it's on the large size for our deck. Also, its plastic siding won't fit in with the rest of the woodwork we're doing.

2. Go with a traditional wood hot tub (probably cedar) -- approx 5' in diameter. This would give us more room on the deck for other things, and would be aesthetically more pleasing (and hopefully as comfortable). However, there are several heater options, and this is where things get complicated:

2a. Go with a MiniMax 100 (100k BTU) gas heater. This seems to be highly recommended for minimizing energy costs. However, it's somewhat large, and must sit away from the tub (our deck is 13x15' so there are limited options here). I also have some concerns about the quality of this heater after seeing the reviews here: http://www1.epinions.com/reviews/PacFab_Po...ter_MiniMax_100

2b. Go with a Balboa VS501 5.5kW electric heating system. It small, and can fit under some of the benches we're building. I'm told that the energy costs could be triple going this route though, not to mention that the water heating time is far greater (although if on a timer, maybe this is a non-issue?).

2c. Go with a Raypak SpaPak electric heating system. These are available in either 5.5kW or 11kW. They look slightly larger than the Balboa, but seem roughly equivalent. I'm not sure whether the 11kW would raise or lower the energy costs though.

2d. Other?

I'd be very interested in any advice or input that anyone here can offer on these options. I'd love to hear others thoughts on the various heating systems and their efficiency, reliability (and noise -- that's a concern for us too)... or if there are other options we should consider. I don't want to make a decision that later turns into a maintenance nightmare. Thanks!

Warren

[Roger]

My wife and I are working with a landscape designer/contractor to redo our roof deck and would like to install a small spa or hot tub. We've done the structural analysis -- got the green light to go ahead with this project -- but now it comes down to the choice of tub and heating system. We've tried to do our homework and research them online, but I really could use some advice from experienced owners about some of our choices:

1. Go with a Hot Spring Jetsetter -- small, self-contained, electric, quiet... although choosing this one really means just us... no guests. Also our designer isn't thrilled with it since, relatively speaking, it's on the large size for our deck. Also, its plastic siding won't fit in with the rest of the woodwork we're doing.

2. Go with a traditional wood hot tub (probably cedar) -- approx 5' in diameter. This would give us more room on the deck for other things, and would be aesthetically more pleasing (and hopefully as comfortable). However, there are several heater options, and this is where things get complicated:

2a. Go with a MiniMax 100 (100k BTU) gas heater. This seems to be highly recommended for minimizing energy costs. However, it's somewhat large, and must sit away from the tub (our deck is 13x15' so there are limited options here). I also have some concerns about the quality of this heater after seeing the reviews here: http://www1.epinions.com/reviews/PacFab_Po...ter_MiniMax_100

2b. Go with a Balboa VS501 5.5kW electric heating system. It small, and can fit under some of the benches we're building. I'm told that the energy costs could be triple going this route though, not to mention that the water heating time is far greater (although if on a timer, maybe this is a non-issue?).

2c. Go with a Raypak SpaPak electric heating system. These are available in either 5.5kW or 11kW. They look slightly larger than the Balboa, but seem roughly equivalent. I'm not sure whether the 11kW would raise or lower the energy costs though.

2d. Other?

I'd be very interested in any advice or input that anyone here can offer on these options. I'd love to hear others thoughts on the various heating systems and their efficiency, reliability (and noise -- that's a concern for us too)... or if there are other options we should consider. I don't want to make a decision that later turns into a maintenance nightmare. Thanks!

Warren

If you go the round wooden traditional route I like the gas heaters very quick and effecient. For electric that raypak is a nice unit had the chance to see one not to long ago but, it was for a small inside gunite tub heated much slower than gas and I am absolutly sure it used more energy. But it won out in it's compact design compared to gas. It was an 11KW.

It seems the portable route would lend itself to a more compact energy effecient way to go with better jetting options and seating but maybe not in your case. Not sure how I can help except to give you that little bit.

[djousma]

Warren,

What climate do you live in? If southern, then the outdoor wood tub would be fine, but if you are in the cold north, those wood tubs dont do much for energy conservation.....

[ps558]

Warren,

What climate do you live in? If southern, then the outdoor wood tub would be fine, but if you are in the cold north, those wood tubs dont do much for energy conservation.....

I would go with a self contained spa. Once it is heater energy use in low if the spa is covered. Check with your Hotspring Dealer they offer other alternatives to the plastic cabinets. A good spa should only cost about 30 bucks a month to run

[Dr. Spa]

As one of the worlds largest manufacturers of wooden hot tubs, I should be able to answer some of this for you.

Somethings wrong with the 2 reviews on epinions. The first, well, the minimax 100 has been our most popular heater for years and years. Very very rarely do we see any problems with them (far less that any other gas heater we've tried), and if there are, they're MOST DEFINITELY covered under warranty for the first year...100%

The second review, it sounds pretty apparent that the heater is not only installed incorrectly and doesn't have proper clearance above it, but also has insuficient water flow through it. Improper clearance would cause insufficient air flow through the heater, and result in numerous problems over time. Lack of water flow would cause the piping to soften and disengage from the heater, as well as other internal problems over time.

The balboa controllers work great on self contained spas...not so great on wooden hot tub. One of the reasons is that they operate off measuring the water temp at their heater, rather than the hot tub. This causes a huge amount of cycling on and off (using a lot of electricity). The other thing to remember is they're NOT designed for outdoors and need to be fully protected from the weather.

Typically the cost to heat with electricity is about twice the cost of gas. This is the actual cost of operating the heater and does NOT include the extra cost of operating the pump (the pump has to be moving water through the heater for it to operate). An 11kw heater need to run about 3 times as long as a 100k BTU gas heater to produce the same amount of heat. A 5.5 kw heater, 6 times as long as a 100k BTU gas heater. Hence the cost to operate the pump increases significantly.

Being on the roof, I'd be very concerned with noise and vibrations! As far as I know a balboa system can't be operated by a time clock and is going to cycle on and off all night long. A time clocked system can easily be set to not run during the night time and only run once or twice a day.

Probably more to follow.........

[warren]

What climate do you live in? If southern, then the outdoor wood tub would be fine, but if you are in the cold north, those wood tubs dont do much for energy conservation.....

I'm in a moderate climate - northern CA.

[warren]

As one of the worlds largest manufacturers of wooden hot tubs, I should be able to answer some of this for you.

Somethings wrong with the 2 reviews on epinions. The first, well, the minimax 100 has been our most popular heater for years and years. Very very rarely do we see any problems with them (far less that any other gas heater we've tried), and if there are, they're MOST DEFINITELY covered under warranty for the first year...100%

The second review, it sounds pretty apparent that the heater is not only installed incorrectly and doesn't have proper clearance above it, but also has insuficient water flow through it. Improper clearance would cause insufficient air flow through the heater, and result in numerous problems over time. Lack of water flow would cause the piping to soften and disengage from the heater, as well as other internal problems over time.

The balboa controllers work great on self contained spas...not so great on wooden hot tub. One of the reasons is that they operate off measuring the water temp at their heater, rather than the hot tub. This causes a huge amount of cycling on and off (using a lot of electricity). The other thing to remember is they're NOT designed for outdoors and need to be fully protected from the weather.

Typically the cost to heat with electricity is about twice the cost of gas. This is the actual cost of operating the heater and does NOT include the extra cost of operating the pump (the pump has to be moving water through the heater for it to operate). An 11kw heater need to run about 3 times as long as a 100k BTU gas heater to produce the same amount of heat. A 5.5 kw heater, 6 times as long as a 100k BTU gas heater. Hence the cost to operate the pump increases significantly.

Being on the roof, I'd be very concerned with noise and vibrations! As far as I know a balboa system can't be operated by a time clock and is going to cycle on and off all night long. A time clocked system can easily be set to not run during the night time and only run once or twice a day.

Probably more to follow.........

Dr Spa - Thanks for the excellent info. I am very concerned about noise and vibration since the deck is above our bedroom. So having a system that works on a timer is an absolute must. I don't need the water to be hot at a moment's notice, but if it takes 3-4 hours to get up to temperature, that probably won't fly either.

One question about the Balboa systems. I was under the impression that it could be run on a timer since it had an electronic control panel, but now looking through the docs, I don't see anything about that. Can anyone confirm? (http://www.balboainstruments.com/page147.html)

Same questions about the Raypak SpaPak system -- is there a spa control system with timer?

Thanks,

[Dr. Spa]

As I said before, I'm not aware that the balboa system can be timer controllable. Our current "normal" (mechanical, not digital) system runs on a timer for daily maintenance*. We have a new digital control system coming out (any day now..I hope!) that's specifically ment for wooden hot tubs. It'll work with both gas or electric heat, is rated for outdoor installation and has a number of different operations controlled by a timer..

* under normal operation of operating the timer once a day you're never more than 1 hour from being hot. Run twice a day, no more than a half hour..... And with proper timing, generally you're not more than 10 or 15 minutes from hot, with a gas heater.

[Roger]

As I said before, I'm not aware that the balboa system can be timer controllable. Our current "normal" (mechanical, not digital) system runs on a timer for daily maintenance*. We have a new digital control system coming out (any day now..I hope!) that's specifically ment for wooden hot tubs. It'll work with both gas or electric heat, is rated for outdoor installation and has a number of different operations controlled by a timer..

* under normal operation of operating the timer once a day you're never more than 1 hour from being hot. Run twice a day, no more than a half hour..... And with proper timing, generally you're not more than 10 or 15 minutes from hot, with a gas heater.

Doc, you know that traditional round wooden with gas heat is my favorite right? I have a pump and a controler if you have any layin around you need to part with super duper cheap.

[warren]

As I said before, I'm not aware that the balboa system can be timer controllable. Our current "normal" (mechanical, not digital) system runs on a timer for daily maintenance*. We have a new digital control system coming out (any day now..I hope!) that's specifically ment for wooden hot tubs. It'll work with both gas or electric heat, is rated for outdoor installation and has a number of different operations controlled by a timer..

Doc - Thanks again. I'd be very interested to hear more about your new digital timer/controller when it's available.

* under normal operation of operating the timer once a day you're never more than 1 hour from being hot. Run twice a day, no more than a half hour..... And with proper timing, generally you're not more than 10 or 15 minutes from hot, with a gas heater.

I'm thinking I may have to go with an electric heating system due to space considerations (our deck is small). Any idea what the time-till-hot would be for a 5.5 or 11kW heater if run on a daily timer? Thanks,

[flyguyscott]

You might want to take a peek at an Arctic Fox. It's a smaller 4 person (only 3 people practically though) tub and has a much smaller footprint that a traditional 7' x 7' spa. All Arctic's come standard with a cedar wood cabinet.

http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/hot-tubs/arctic-fox.html

It might be the best of all aspects; small, asthetic (as you mentioned you like the cedar look) & comfortable as it has all the regular luxury spa features.

They are all electric but with the smaller water volume the costs should be more than reasonable. Most new spas, especially high end ones, are very efficient. Gas is still going to be cheaper of course, but my how much I don't know. If gas is 1/2 the price then you'd be saving about $15 / mo on average depending where you live.

We have an Arctic and it's sitting right outside of a bedroom window and you can't even hear it when the filter is running unless the window is open. I would akin the sound of the tub when filterig the water to your forced air gas furnice; a quiet hum you notice go on and off sometimes but never pay attention to it.

Arctic's don't have a timer for the filter cycle, but rather you set the number of times a day it filters and the duration of the filter cycle. By default it filters 4 times a day for 2 hour. If you set it to filter 3 times a day and timed the power cycle correctly it wouldn't filter for the 8 hours you're sleeping.

Hope this helps.

[spawn]

Check out Marquis Envy, a small deep round tub with cedar exterior that can be left natural or stained to match other finishes. Very energy efficient. Quality manufacturer. Relatively light weight.