After Market Salt Water Chlorine Generators (swcg)

[chem geek]

Questions for the nay sayers: Is biofilm in pipes an issue in our industry? Is water mold build up in pipes an issue?

A new spa often has biofilm in pipes because it is wet tested but the pipes are not blown/dried out. So biofilm forms in them. That is one of the reasons that a new spa has a rather high oxidizer demand (the other reason being leftover manufacturing chemicals in the spa). However, after an initial use of Spa System Flush for a new spa, it won't get significant biofilms in the pipes or on other surfaces if the sanitizer level is consistently maintained and doesn't get to zero for more than an hour or so. White water mold will likely not grow if proper chlorine or bromine levels are maintained, though it can grow (after some time) with Baqua/biguanide/PHMB and need a periodic decontamination.

So it's not that these products aren't effective with respect to biofilm formation (giving them the benefit of the doubt), but that they aren't necessary if you are properly sanitizing your spa with sufficient oxidizer. So they should be seen more as insurance, if anything. And yes, you can get a silky feel to the water by adding minerals, but you don't have to buy these special products for that -- as waterbear mentioned, even borates has some of that effect.

It's the misleading marketing that is more of an issue such as SilkBalance™ for Spas that touts being "without harmful chemicals" and "this revolutionary product eliminates buying & storing confusing multiples of different chemicals from chlorines, bromines, increasers and degreasers." or AquaFinesse that touts being nearly chlorine-free with 70% reductions in oxidizer usage, etc. It's only in improperly maintained spas where such products can be seen as a "cure" since they can hide the fact that one isn't using sufficient oxidizer in which case their spa may not get biofilms anymore, but there is still a buildup of urea from sweat and urine and sanitation is still at risk. That's why spas with ozonators have far fewer problems when using these sorts of mineral-based products. Having oxidizer added after every soak (MPS with silver ion, in your case and a weekly chlorine shock) in spas with ozonators is likely to be sanitary.

[Aquafinesse Canada]

Wow,, not sure if we want to get involved in your debate. We would always be glad to answer direct questions with direct intelligent answers. Glad to have one of our PHD's come on to give answers to those with higher levels questions.

Not sure if the OP got an answer, mine is there is there's no simple salt generator answer. In 15 years of being a tub manufacturer I can tell you that it isn't easy to add one or everyone would have done it. Ph stabilization, cathode calcification are just a few of the problems. I know 2 spa manufacturers out there on rev. 15 of there factory add on and still haven't got it right. Wishing Watkins much luck with ACE. So far it hasn't been approved to come to Canada.

To our retailer on this post, thanks for your business, and to clarify to those in this thread our product and formula has 0% to do with Silk, we have no Copper, Silver Aluminum or other Heavy metals in our product. Our product does not need to be EPA approved as we make no claims as a sanitizer. Unlike Silk ALL our product is packaged with and in writing requires to be used with a recognized sanitizer, ( we use Dichlor or Trichlor)

Please have a look at our new NA website aquafinesseone.com for more information on our products. I am sure many misconceptions will become clear. Please Email us if anyone on this forum has questions. We will be happy to call or Email back answers.

Wait til you see the value of AquaFinesse product for pool, please try it we are glad to send a sample. I have never spoke to a person who tried it and didn't like it.

[waterbear]

Wow,, not sure if we want to get involved in your debate. We would always be glad to answer direct questions with direct intelligent answers. Glad to have one of our PHD's come on to give answers to those with higher levels questions.

Not sure if the OP got an answer, mine is there is there's no simple salt generator answer. In 15 years of being a tub manufacturer I can tell you that it isn't easy to add one or everyone would have done it. Ph stabilization, cathode calcification are just a few of the problems. I know 2 spa manufacturers out there on rev. 15 of there factory add on and still haven't got it right. Wishing Watkins much luck with ACE. So far it hasn't been approved to come to Canada.

To our retailer on this post, thanks for your business, and to clarify to those in this thread our product and formula has 0% to do with Silk, we have no Copper, Silver Aluminum or other Heavy metals in our product.

Then how about metalloids like Boron (possibly in the form of tetraborates? Your dealer in this thread is the one saying that the product contains mineral salts. Last time I checked a mineral salt was made from a metallic cation and an anion since salts are ionic compounds. What mineral salts does the product contain?

Our product does not need to be EPA approved as we make no claims as a sanitizer.

Unlike Silk ALL our product is packaged with and in writing requires to be used with a recognized sanitizer, ( we use Dichlor or Trichlor)

Here is a direct quote from the website:

"The use of traditional chemicals such as chlorine or bromine in your pool result in strong smelling water with harsh unwanted side effects on your skin, eyes, chest and even your pool’s equipment."

This implies that chlorine or bromine is not used, a bit misleading isn't it? Is is at the very bottom that you say that the product is used with chlorine. Why not just be upfront and say that this product is used IN ADDITION to normal sanitizers and is an additional expense?

Please have a look at our new NA website aquafinesseone.com for more information on our products. I am sure many misconceptions will become clear. Please Email us if anyone on this forum has questions. We will be happy to call or Email back answers.

Wait til you see the value of AquaFinesse product for pool, please try it we are glad to send a sample. I have never spoke to a person who tried it and didn't like it.

Thank you for your reply. Exactly what are the ingredients? I think that would clear up a lot.

[texasradio]

Waterbear, I believe that the primary ingredient of all these mysterious products may well be snake oil. I wonder what this Spa God meant about "getting in on the ground floor" of Aqua Finesse? Is it a pyramid, or if you like, multi-level marketing scheme of some type? Sure sounds like it the way the guy was going on about it. Somebody get these people a Spa Frog already! ;-)

[chem geek]

You guys (Aquafinesse Canada; hottubdan) are very responsible in the way you sell AquaFinesse by ensuring that chlorine is used and in sufficient quantity so thank you for that. Unfortunately, we've seen others who have promoted it quite differently and I agree with waterbear that the AquaFinesse website sends inconsistent messages and is not very clear.

In this post and this post and this post, spababe believed that AquaFinesse had no chlorine or bromine in it. In this post, she says there is no testing whatsoever. In this post she says many are using it in the U.K.

In this post, Private Shrink believed that with AquaFinesse "you only have to add a trace of chlorine each week".

In these posts all posted by gunner12 on the same day, he loves it. It's always suspicious when one sees cut/paste text posted from one user on the same day to multiple posts and then never heard from again.

In this thread, davebor reports problems with AquaFinesse having the water go bad. Note that he does not have an ozonator. Note that more and more chlorine or shock is needed as time goes on, a clear sign that not enough oxidizer is being used.

In this thread, you can see where Bobaloole wanted to use AquaFinesse "to get away from chemicals" and that he had hard time getting the chlorine level above 0.5 ppm and thought that trying to keep it at 1.5 "does seem kind of contrary to the product to start pumping chlorine into the spa, something we wanted to go away from." Note that he also does not have an ozonator.

In this post, Kingdog reports how his Artic dealer was touting AquaFinesse as "virtually maintenance free" and that he thought that "not using any bromine or chlorine or checking levels" sounded fishy.

In this post, AquaFinesseOne states that "most tubs use 1 teaspoon of dichlor a week".

In this post, Luncian reports that the FC gets down to 0 overnight sometimes.

There are additional reports on other websites, but I think you get the idea that though you aren't touting the system as chlorine-free or as something where you don't have to test the chlorine level to make sure it doesn't get to zero, nevertheless a lot of other people are sure getting that idea from other dealers.

If you do a Google search on the following quote:

When used in combination with a good working ozone or silver ion system, no additional sanitizers are needed. However, the National Spa and Pool Institute (NSPI) recommends that hot tub owners maintain a minimum level of 1.5-ppm chlorine in the spa water. To meet these standards, we strongly suggest using the provided sanitizing tablets as directed in the slow-release dispenser. Soon, your water will be in the best shape of its life-no pH products, clarifiers or additional chemicals needed!

you will find it on many dealer websites and on older AquaFinesse websites. Though this has apparently been changed more recently, it seems that historically the system was promoted as not needing an additional sanitizer if you have an ozone or silver-ion system. I suspect that this may have been changed to avoid violating FIFRA rules, but it at least may explain why so many people think of AquaFinesse as a no-chlorine or "don't have to check chlorine levels" system.

Everything I have seen in reports of problems with this system is consistent with simply not using enough oxidizer to keep up with bather load when one does not have an ozonator and that this occurred mostly because people thought the AquaFinesse system didn't require regular checking of FC levels (at least at first until one get a sense for their regular chlorine demand), and that they didn't realize enough chlorine needed to be added to not let the FC get too close to zero.

[waterbear]

To paraphraase Forrest Gump:

"Deceptive is as deceptive does."

Thank you chem geek, you and I are on exactly the same page here.

[Aquafinesse Canada]

You guys (Aquafinesse Canada; hottubdan) are very responsible in the way you sell AquaFinesse by ensuring that chlorine is used and in sufficient quantity so thank you for that. Unfortunately, we've seen others who have promoted it quite differently and I agree with waterbear that the AquaFinesse website sends inconsistent messages and is not very clear.

In this post and this post and this post, spababe believed that AquaFinesse had no chlorine or bromine in it. In this post, she says there is no testing whatsoever. In this post she says many are using it in the U.K.

In this post, Private Shrink believed that with AquaFinesse "you only have to add a trace of chlorine each week".

In these posts all posted by gunner12 on the same day, he loves it. It's always suspicious when one sees cut/paste text posted from one user on the same day.

In this thread, davebor reports problems with AquaFinesse having the water go bad. Note that he does not have an ozonator. Note that more and more chlorine or shock is needed as time goes on, a clear sign that not enough oxidizer is being used.

In this thread, you can see where Bobaloole wanted to use AquaFinesse "to get away from chemicals" and that he had hard time getting the chlorine level above 0.5 ppm and thought that trying to keep it at 1.5 "does seem kind of contrary to the product to start pumping chlorine into the spa, something we wanted to go away from." Note that he also does not have an ozonator.

In this post, Kingdog reports how his Artic dealer was touting AquaFinesse as "virtually maintenance free" and that he thought that "not using any bromine or chlorine or checking levels" sounded fishy.

In this post, AquaFinesseOne states that "most tubs use 1 teaspoon of dichlor a week".

In this post, Luncian reports that the FC gets down to 0 overnight sometimes.

There are additional reports on other websites, but I think you get the idea that though you aren't touting the system as chlorine-free or as something where you don't have to test the chlorine level to make sure it doesn't get to zero, nevertheless a lot of other people are sure getting that idea from other dealers.

If you do a Google search on the following quote:

When used in combination with a good working ozone or silver ion system, no additional sanitizers are needed. However, the National Spa and Pool Institute (NSPI) recommends that hot tub owners maintain a minimum level of 1.5-ppm chlorine in the spa water. To meet these standards, we strongly suggest using the provided sanitizing tablets as directed in the slow-release dispenser. Soon, your water will be in the best shape of its life-no pH products, clarifiers or additional chemicals needed!

you will find it on many dealer websites and on older AquaFinesse websites. Though this has apparently been changed more recently, it seems that historically the system was promoted as not needing an additional sanitizer if you have an ozone or silver-ion system. I suspect that this may have been changed to avoid violating FIFRA rules, but it at least may explain why so many people think of AquaFinesse as a no-chlorine or "don't have to check chlorine levels" system.

Everything I have seen in reports of problems with this system is consistent with simply not using enough oxidizer to keep up with bather load when one does not have an ozonator and that this occurred mostly because people thought the AquaFinesse system didn't require regular checking of FC levels (at least at first until one get a sense for their regular chlorine demand), and that they didn't realize enough chlorine needed to be added to not let the FC get too close to zero.

I could not agree with you more. Though we will stop growth of bacteria in colonization biofilm we do not do anything to water phase organics bathers introduce to the spa. While in nomral bather use you can get away with 1.5 ppm FC that means twice a week bathing of 2 adults for 20 minutes a week. The other week I had a lady tell me she was 250ib in a Beachcomber 520 and had Fibromyalgia. She bathed 3 hours a nite in this tiny tub. 1.5 ppm wasnt carrying that organic load.

We actually aren't shy in training of recommending Dichlor over Trichlor as it is a better oxidizer. We also admit shocking your tub is required, just a lot less. As a personal example I have a Sarena Bay at home at this time. I used to shock it weekly, now bi monthly or after my 15 year old has a party.

We would be glad to share with a confirmed dealer our ingredients which are 7 in inorganic salts and french lavender, they aren't really a secret, just not something we openly share online especially in a forum. Though patented our products secret is its formula. We do apologize for the older European website, but have greatly improved it in our new North American website aquafinesseone.com . Yes tubs with 24 circ and effective working ozone,( facts are 60% of ozone in spas doesn't work effectively after a year)make our product more effective for a number of reasons.

Any retailers or consumers having issues or questions need simply contact us and we are more then happy to help.

[Water Boy]

Even though me and Spa God have disagreed in other threads, I do agree with him on Aqua Finesse. That has been a very good product for our store and our customers. The people that have switched to it from bromine or even chlorine absolutely love it. I was just like anyone and skeptical at first, but it does work very well. I am excited to see how the AF pool care works as well later this year. Many peole like using it as it makes your water care very easy, and it keeps it sparking clean. Once you balance your ph and Alk, they are locked in and you never have to balance them again until you drain and refill. Lots of people like that feature alone. Plus it gives the water a nice lavendar smell, and the water feels extremely soft, and doesnt leave your skin dry or itchy. You dont ever have to use the defoamers, metal and scale, or clarifier products with the AF. Anyways, just wanted to say that we highly recommend it, and here are some quotes from customers.

"This stuff is great. We love it."

"You should have all of your customers on AF."

"I wish I would have known about AF five years ago"

"I am so glad that we found AF as I enjoy using my hot tub again."

[Aquafinesse Canada]

Even though me and Spa God have disagreed in other threads, I do agree with him on Aqua Finesse. That has been a very good product for our store and our customers. The people that have switched to it from bromine or even chlorine absolutely love it. I was just like anyone and skeptical at first, but it does work very well. I am excited to see how the AF pool care works as well later this year. Many peole like using it as it makes your water care very easy, and it keeps it sparking clean. Once you balance your ph and Alk, they are locked in and you never have to balance them again until you drain and refill. Lots of people like that feature alone. Plus it gives the water a nice lavendar smell, and the water feels extremely soft, and doesnt leave your skin dry or itchy. You dont ever have to use the defoamers, metal and scale, or clarifier products with the AF. Anyways, just wanted to say that we highly recommend it, and here are some quotes from customers.

"This stuff is great. We love it."

"You should have all of your customers on AF."

"I wish I would have known about AF five years ago"

"I am so glad that we found AF as I enjoy using my hot tub again."

We do not like misinformation, putting ourselves out there as Super chemicals that fix all, be linked to enzymes, sanitizer free programs or anything we are not. Our biggest fight is ensuring training and educating our retailers. My partner Steve and i take calls from retailers and consumers willingly all day and into the evening and weekends.

We have webinars for training all the time. The next one is Tuesday, March 15, 2011 at 9 and 12 EST. Please join us and cal out your real name if we don't actually know each other already,,

Many thanks for your kind words. I am excited as the pool product creates a more for less formula versus spa which is a more for more formula. It will be exciting to see this patented unique technology become popularized in the pool watercare industry this year. We cant do anything with out awesome retail customers and always value there input and advise on many aspects of how we grow AquaFinesse. If you are in the US and don't know Steve, contact him and say hello he is a great guy with a lot of watercare experience and knowledge. If you are in Canada and we don't talk regularly please contact me I would love to help grow your business and become a resource to you. I have 15 years experience on the spa side having been a store owner, and executive with a few of the spa manufacturers.

Thanks again,,

[Water Boy]

Even though me and Spa God have disagreed in other threads, I do agree with him on Aqua Finesse. That has been a very good product for our store and our customers. The people that have switched to it from bromine or even chlorine absolutely love it. I was just like anyone and skeptical at first, but it does work very well. I am excited to see how the AF pool care works as well later this year. Many peole like using it as it makes your water care very easy, and it keeps it sparking clean. Once you balance your ph and Alk, they are locked in and you never have to balance them again until you drain and refill. Lots of people like that feature alone. Plus it gives the water a nice lavendar smell, and the water feels extremely soft, and doesnt leave your skin dry or itchy. You dont ever have to use the defoamers, metal and scale, or clarifier products with the AF. Anyways, just wanted to say that we highly recommend it, and here are some quotes from customers.

"This stuff is great. We love it."

"You should have all of your customers on AF."

"I wish I would have known about AF five years ago"

"I am so glad that we found AF as I enjoy using my hot tub again."

We do not like misinformation, putting ourselves out there as Super chemicals that fix all, be linked to enzymes, sanitizer free programs or anything we are not. Our biggest fight is ensuring training and educating our retailers. My partner Steve and i take calls from retailers and consumers willingly all day and into the evening and weekends.

We have webinars for training all the time. The next one is Tuesday, March 15, 2011 at 9 and 12 EST. Please join us and cal out your real name if we don't actually know each other already,,

Many thanks for your kind words. I am excited as the pool product creates a more for less formula versus spa which is a more for more formula. It will be exciting to see this patented unique technology become popularized in the pool watercare industry this year. We cant do anything with out awesome retail customers and always value there input and advise on many aspects of how we grow AquaFinesse. If you are in the US and don't know Steve, contact him and say hello he is a great guy with a lot of watercare experience and knowledge. If you are in Canada and we don't talk regularly please contact me I would love to help grow your business and become a resource to you. I have 15 years experience on the spa side having been a store owner, and executive with a few of the spa manufacturers.

Thanks again,,

Thanks Shaun. I am in the US and yes I have met Steve. He came into our store with Pete and they were the ones that got us sold/signed up on the AF. It has been great and we plan to only grow in that area! Thanks again!

[waterbear]

We would be glad to share with a confirmed dealer our ingredients which are 7 in inorganic salts and french lavender, they aren't really a secret, just not something we openly share online especially in a forum.

Why not? This is what I am talking about. You do not really say what is in the product and personally I do not want to soak in something if I don't know what is in it. (And I did my time in the retail end of this industry so I know a bit about manufacturer's claims and 'magic in a bottle' products that do everything but walk the dog for you.)

[bdubya200]

The guy doesnt want to post his formula online. Would you expect the executives at Coke to be any more open with theirs? ( Speaking of...do you know what every single ingredient is in everything you eat or drink?) The gentleman came in here, very politely with hat in hand, and explained his position , offered samples, offered to have one of their PhD's come on and discuss this, and was about as nice as a guy could be, but now you want to beat on him because he doesnt want to share a proprietary formula over the interenet with you? No, he didnt tell you what was in it, but he assuaged your fears and confirmed what wasnt in it re: heavy metals. You dont like or believe in the product, no worries. He has stated it needs sanitizer with it. You won. Sure is a lot of oneupsmanship and point scoring in this place sometimes.

[chem geek]

While in nomral bather use you can get away with 1.5 ppm FC that means twice a week bathing of 2 adults for 20 minutes a week. The other week I had a lady tell me she was 250ib in a Beachcomber 520 and had Fibromyalgia. She bathed 3 hours a nite in this tiny tub. 1.5 ppm wasnt carrying that organic load.

When there is no ozonator, 2 adults for 20 minutes at 104ºF in 350 gallons would need around 4-5 ppm FC to oxidize the bather waste each time, so that's 8+ ppm FC for the week. So while 1.5 ppm FC per day chlorine usage would more than cover this, the chlorine level would likely drop to zero within an hour or so after the soak unless chlorine was explicitly added right after the soak. So with this scenario even when not adding chlorine after a soak, on a weekly basis the chlorine amount doesn't "get behind" so the water stays clear on average, but there are potentially long times (i.e. more than a few hours) when there is essentially no chlorine in the water which isn't good. Now, in practice, with biofilm inhibition from the minerals, at least that's one less thing to worry about, but there can still be uncontrolled bacterial growth for a time.

Note that there is a big difference between having a target FC level such as 1.5 ppm and the actual daily chlorine demand/usage. It is the latter that is relevant with regards to handling bather load. The target FC level is only to handle killing planktonic bacteria when the spa is not in use -- it is a target FC for the starting point when you first start soaking. At the end of a long soak, the FC will likely be zero, but then most people add chlorine (or MPS if using silver ions) after a soak to handle the bather waste. Having a fixed dosing Trichlor puck feeder won't work well by itself as it does not accommodate the up-and-down chlorine demand that is a function of bather load.

With higher bather load as with someone in a small tub for 3 hours every day, that needs an extraordinary amount of chlorine or other oxidizer (e.g. MPS). If it's truly a hot (104ºF) tub, then that's nearly 30 ppm FC in 250 gallons of oxidizer required if there is no ozonator. There is simply a lot of urea in sweat and urine (as well as ammonia, creatinine, amino acids, etc.). I suspect, however, that the tub isn't really at 104ºF since it is not healthy to soak for 3 hours at that temperature. It's more likely well under 100ºF and the chlorine demand may be a lot lower as a result, though probably not less than half (probably more like 2/3rds unless it's just warm at 90ºF).

[chem geek]

The guy doesnt want to post his formula online. Would you expect the executives at Coke to be any more open with theirs? ( Speaking of...do you know what every single ingredient is in everything you eat or drink?)

Aquafinesse Canada (Shaun) can PM me an ingredients list. I can then write up a summary that doesn't fully disclose details and send it to him for his review before posting. That way, we'll all be happy. OK? As was pointed out, formulation and proportions are the main trade secrets in many combination products. It's only the very basic chemicals, such as used for pH, TA and CH adjustment, where simple product alternatives with the same chemical are an option. For example, no one here substitutes for a biofilm clearing product, be it Spa System Flush or AquaFinesse Spa Clean (not counting superchorination). No one substitutes for a defoamer in the rare cases they are needed (i.e. when a 120-150 ppm CH isn't sufficient to prevent foaming).

Though it may sound like waterbear and I are beating up posters with some claims, we're really just trying to cut through the baloney to get to the core truth. As you are probably very aware, there are quite a few irresponsible companies in the pool and spa industry that tout various products with claims that are simply not true. Even many saltwater chlorine generator manufacturers or their dealers tout "salt pools" with little or no mention of chlorine being generated. The copper ion folks are particularly offensive where they reference solid/alloy copper approval by the EPA and also reference many scientific papers on copper surfaces killing bacteria as well as copper sulfate in diets affecting bacteria counts in poultry and other animal guts. What they don't tell you is that solid/alloy copper has a copper concentration around 10 million times higher than the copper ion concentrations used in pools/spas (and the mechanism near the mostly dry copper surface is different involving oxygen creating hydrogen peroxide). They don't tell you that the poultry studies use concentrations 100 times higher than used in pools/spa. And they don't tell you that fecal bacteria readily handle low copper ion concentrations with no growth inhibition whatsoever and that the copper ion concentration in blood serum is even higher than used in pools/spas. I am not saying that AquaFinesse is in this category since they have been far more straightforward, but that any lack of clarity is something that we're going to point out since, as the links I gave in my earlier post showed, many people can be easily misled.

So let's move on at this point, get some understanding of the product, and let it be promoted for what it really does that is perceived to be most valuable which is 1) having a feel some people like based on its salts, 2) having easier maintenance in terms of pH and avoiding scale (assuming there's a phosphate buffer being used as I suspect) and 3) initial cleaning of biofilm and insurance against biofilm formation if the sanitizer level is not properly maintained. Whether people want to spend money for these benefits on this specific product or whether they prefer using other techniques to accomplish similar though perhaps not identical goals is up to them.

[waterbear]

I concur with chem geek. I was not asking for the formulation but just what 'magic ingredients' are in this product. I have seen too many products that make a lot of claims come and go and very few stand up to close scrutiny. Some do, case in point the borate products like Supreme and Optimizer actually do what is claimed and are a beneficial additive in most cases. However, most turn out to be of dubious value and are really not needed if proper water maintenance procedures are followed (most algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, phosphate removers, etc. While there is a time a place that these products can be useful they normally are not needed in normal pool and spa maintenance.) The main benefit of many of these products is to dealers bottom lines, not customers water care.

[Water Boy]

Wow

Too much to read...

You win. you are wrong... but you win.

Year one selling this product and my 200 customers on this product will stay on it and next year it will be 300...

Maybe you are all right and it's just magic!!!

It cracks me up... I am just sharing my experience with you for no gain, and you are shooting in the dark because you have never even tried it...

You cant possibly evaluate this without field testing it because you nor I know what combination of which type of salts are in it... yer all guessing.

Good science guys

Wow, Spa God, that is a lot of kits you sell on a yearly basis. Just curious, but what part of the county or world are you in?

[mrwrick]

I have read through this 2011 thread on SWCGs. I still need some clarification about the concept and its effectiveness in execution. My understanding at this point is that a SWCG will supplement, but never replace, the need for a periodic sanitizer. I also understand that an ozonator may be a better supplement for santization than a SWCG if only one of those systems is added. My question is based on my usage and need to maintain the spa during long periods of inattention. I want to maintain my spa at my vacation home. I may go there only every 2 or 3 weeks for a period of 2 to 5 days. I have been recommended to install a ControlOmatic SWCG, either DO or IL, the ChlorMaker unit specifically. Separately, I have been recommended to install an ozonator. Please give me hard advice about what to expect or not from this system. I am not interested in comparison with the systems discussed at length in this thread back in 2011. I am looking for someone to tell me whether ANY SWCG, but the ChlorMaker unit in particular, will reduce the dependence on chlorine (bleach, Dichlor or Trichlor) in a spa that will sit at a temp of between 90 and 100 for 2 weeks or longer with no bather usage, no testing or adjustment of sanitizer. Also, I am interested in the extension of water life from 6 months to as long as a year. Thanks.

[chem geek]

It is not true that an SWCG cannot replace the need for a periodic sanitizer. SWCG is a saltwater CHLORINE GENERATOR so it generates chlorine which is a sanitizer. The only question is whether the bather load is so high that the SWCG alone is not enough to keep up, especially if the bather load is not consistent.

For maintaining a spa in between uses, ozone alone is not the best approach. An SWCG can maintain a small residual in between soaks so would generally be better.

You would turn down your SWCG when you are gone and you would either turn it up in the period 2-5 day period when you are using the spa OR you would add chlorine bleach after each soak when you've used the spa. Note that you want to initially add some CYA to the spa to moderate chlorine's strength and will need to add a little once a month to maintain that level (CYA is slowly broken down by chlorine in spas at roughly the rate of 5 ppm CYA per month).

With the infrequent usage you describe, you should be able to go longer between water changes. For a 350 gallon spa, you could likely go a year between water changes if your bather load was no higher than 0.2 person-hours per day on average so worst case using the spa 5 days every 2 weeks that is 0.6 person-hours per day during the 5-day use of the spa. So one person soaking for roughly 35 minutes. The bather-load could be lower if you use the spa for less than 5 days or have the non-use period be longer than 2 weeks.

[Spanky]

While it's true that a SWCG can be used as a sole method of sanitization by using "Boost Mode" after each use, I personally find it more practical to set my Chlormaker to maintain 2ppm FC and add a dose of liquid chlorine after each soak. The SWCG essentially replaces a bromine floater but provides longer water life vs Bromine systems. Another consideration is the life of the cell electrodes. By using a power level of 30% the cell should easilly last 3 years or more. Replacement chlormaker cells are $106.00 which amortizes to $35.00 / year, less than the average cost of 1 pail of Bromine Tabs!!!

Another point is that adding chlorine (Bleach) after each soak will slowly increase the salt level in the water. Once it reaches 2500ppm you have to drain & replace water. I started mine in April @ 1800ppm an now 7

months later, the cell is still showing acceptable salt level and the water is crystal clear. I predict that at the 1 year mark the salt concentration may dictate a water change, but I'll see in April.

I can honestly say that both the Chlormaker in the tub and the Hayward installed in the pool have exceeded all expectations.

[mrwrick]

How much Borax would you add to a 350 gallon spa and when?

[chem geek]

50 ppm borates (technically this is ppm Boron) in 350 gallons would be 13.4 ounces weight (about 14.9 fluid ounces volume) of boric acid which you can get at Duda Diesel or at The Chemistry Store. You can add it any time, but if your Total Alkalinity (TA) is high then you should lower that first before adding the boric acid, only because it's easier to lower the TA before there's the extra pH buffering from the boric acid. You probably want to lower your TA to around 50 ppm.