Is Our Water Toxic Soup?

[drewskie]

I have ben researching trying to find the right chemicals for my tub, bromine, chlorine, etc., and ifound lots of infomation. Some of it is scary. Many claims that bromine and chlorine lead to cancer, lung conditions, especially that they are very bad for the skin and promote aging. I am just wondering if all the chemicals we use, the ph+/-, metal removers, etc. are killing us slowly. I di d a few ads for allnatural spa chemicals, like this one, http://www.carefreespa.com/, that sounds like complete bs. I am curious if there are any natural spa sanitziers and if relaxing in the tub is a dangerous activity. And yes, i do realize that most people would be biased, but I'm sure more knowledgable than anywhere else.

[mcw53]

It's so simple. Just pour in a bottle of Naturel Spa into your spa or hot tub, hose off the filters and you're good to go for the next two months. No testing. No pH balancing. No toxic spa chemicals. ...

Yeah right. Your choice ... "toxic spa chemicals" like chlorine -or- toxic bacteria growth.

[Dr. Spa]

found lots of infomation. Some of it is scary. Many claims that bromine and chlorine lead to cancer, lung conditions, especially that they are very bad for the skin and promote aging.

Would I be correct that where ever you found this information, someone was SELLING something so that this wouldn't be the case?

[Vince22]

found lots of infomation. Some of it is scary. Many claims that bromine and chlorine lead to cancer, lung conditions, especially that they are very bad for the skin and promote aging.

Would I be correct that where ever you found this information, someone was SELLING something so that this wouldn't be the case?

I think this is a very valid question. In fact, I there was another post a week or two ago about why showering after the tub.

We're immersing ourselves in a liquid with a mixture of potentially harmful chemicals and gases. Is there potention for long term damange like skin or lung cancer?

I've had my tub for a about 6 months now (bromine, ozonator, floater), and although I enjoy it immensely, the thought nags.

I have no scientific background so I will wait for someone with more objective scientific knowledge to weigh in. Chem Geek? Any thought on halogens, ozone, silver, and the other chemicals/elements in the quantities we'd be encountering in the tub?

[bart6453]

found lots of infomation. Some of it is scary. Many claims that bromine and chlorine lead to cancer, lung conditions, especially that they are very bad for the skin and promote aging.

Would I be correct that where ever you found this information, someone was SELLING something so that this wouldn't be the case?

I think this is a very valid question. In fact, I there was another post a week or two ago about why showering after the tub.

We're immersing ourselves in a liquid with a mixture of potentially harmful chemicals and gases. Is there potention for long term damange like skin or lung cancer?

I've had my tub for a about 6 months now (bromine, ozonator, floater), and although I enjoy it immensely, the thought nags.

I have no scientific background so I will wait for someone with more objective scientific knowledge to weigh in. Chem Geek? Any thought on halogens, ozone, silver, and the other chemicals/elements in the quantities we'd be encountering in the tub?

Seriously?

People have been swimming in chlorine pools for a very long time.

We spend much less time in our tubs than even highschool athletic swimmers do.

If there were problems with being in chlorine, there would be a clear correlation between highschool, college, and olympic swimming athletes and any condition that chlorine exposure may cause.

I for one am not a pansy, I will die some day, it may be today on my way home from work, it may be 40 years from now. But I am really not going to worry how it is going to happen, and continue to enjoy the little luxuries in life.

Nothing ventured.....Nothing gained.

[The Pup]

I have continuously owned and enjoyed a spa since the early '70s and I am considered to be in excellent health (for an old geezer).

I wonder how much more excellent I would be if I had not been involved in such a hazardous leisurely and relaxing pastime?

If you have your health (and family & friends)...you must be happy.

[Vince22]

I also enjoy my spa. No doubt about it.

That's ok, though. I didn't think I'd get any unbiased answers on this one.

[Mikey_in_NY]

If you're on town supplied water then you've almost certainly been "exposed" to chlorinated water for years by now - including drinking the stuff. So it's probably too late to worry about it.

[bart6453]

If you're on town supplied water then you've almost certainly been "exposed" to chlorinated water for years by now - including drinking the stuff. So it's probably too late to worry about it.

+1

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that it's important to remember that just because something is "All natural" does not make it good for you.

When a rattlesnake bites you and injects "All natural" venom, you're probably not going to like the effect.

[chem geek]

I wrote up my thoughts on a couple of asthma studies in chlorinated pools in this thread. Basically, the first study made some sense since it was with indoor pools that typically don't use CYA and were likely over-chlorinated as a result which theoretically causes more nitrogen trichloride to be produced. The second study had a bunch of weird things going on with it and was inconsistent in some ways with the first study.

The bottom line, however, is that the worst problems with disinfection by-products occur in pools with high bather loads, so in some commercial/public pools. In a private residential pool, the risks are far lower (though the second study above seemed to imply otherwise). As for spas, even residential ones are technically fairly high bather load since the volume of water is fairly small. Cleanliness is important here since the more dangerous disinfection by-products come from chlorination of more complex organics (forming chloroform, for example) so if you avoid using lotions, creams, etc. and aren't dirty, then mostly what you introduce into the spa via your sweat and urine is urea and ammonia (and some creatinine and other substances in smaller amounts). Chlorine combines quickly with ammonia to form monochloramine and then this breaks down with further chlorine into nitrogen gas, but goes through dichloramine and nitrogen trichloride in the process. The amount of the most irritating, smelly and volatile component, nitrogen trichloride, is a function of the active chlorine level so is lower when there is CYA in the water -- you would definitely smell it if it was being outgassed and it doesn't smell good. As for urea, the specific breakdown process is more speculative, but likely to form chlorourea (ultimately quadchlorourea) that then breaks apart into dichloramine, nitrogen trichloride and carbon dioxide. These first two then break down to nitrogen gas. In a hot spa, all of this breakdown occurs within a few hours.

To avoid exposure to most of what occurs above, one can start off a soak with a smaller amount of chlorine, say 1 ppm FC or so, and then add sufficient chlorine right after the soak. The disinfection by-products would then be formed after your soak and would dissipate before your next soak, especially if you let the spa air out briefly before your next soak.

If one wants to avoid disinfection by-products completely (and still have good sanitation), then one can use Nature2 with non-chlorine shock (MPS). MPS is still an oxidizer so produces various intermediate products, but they are not chlorinated and as far as we know aren't harmful.

Showering with chlorinated water is probably more harmful because it is in very tiny droplets that you inhale. In a spa, when there is some CYA, the active chlorine concentration is lower and not outgassed as much. As for whether these risks are high enough to be of concern, that's more of a personal decision since there aren't studies showing significant harm, though there are links to some studies showing speculative correlations quoted by manufacturers of products that remove chlorine, say using ascorbic acid in shower heads.

Richard