Deceptive Advertising

[Jim_The_Jim]

Starting with the Consumers Digest:

The Consumer's Digest "Award":

This is a form of "reverse advertising" and it was and is slick. It is the "used car salesman's dream". The magazine editors would contact the spa company and ask for literature on the spas, brochures, and copies of warranty, specification sheets, and a list of average prices across the US. In about a month or so, the magazine would send a letter to the spa company, announcing that they have won the "award" for the "Best Buy" on some spa model. If the spa company chooses, they could pay many thousands of dollars to have the rights to use the "Best Buy" logo in advertising. It is not a wonder that the magazine is no longer in existence (It came back, recently). It was consumer fraud. The companies that used that bogus award in their advertising were just as guilty as the magazine. It is a disgusting lie to use that in any advertising, even if the product is good.

It is the word "Consumer" that needs to be changed to "Advertiser"

Whenever you see any award on any spa site, with stars or "best buy", then you know it is a paid advertising. The latest is the poolandspa star rating on spas. It is totally based upon advertising dollars paid to the Long Island Hot Tubs site. If you watch the ratings they change from month to month based upon who stopped paying for the advertising. A "5 star" spa brand will drop into the one star really fast if they stop paying for the advertising. The clue is to look at the banner advertising on the web site.

Whatsthbesthottub.com is another advertising company that wants about $1 for each click through from their web site.

What I am saying to you in no uncertain terms is there are no real awards or testing of one spa against another. There are very few sampling of the spa companies customer service policy or even if the warranty is honored. Most all of the awards are paid for by the spa company. Most of the web sites, even the ones that sound like an impartial site are most likely attached to some form of money from spa companies. Why would anybody put up a web site and pay for all the time to put it up.

[Stevie]

Starting with the Consumers Digest:

The Consumer's Digest "Award":

This is a form of "reverse advertising" and it was and is slick. It is the "used car salesman's dream". The magazine editors would contact the spa company and ask for literature on the spas, brochures, and copies of warranty, specification sheets, and a list of average prices across the US. In about a month or so, the magazine would send a letter to the spa company, announcing that they have won the "award" for the "Best Buy" on some spa model. If the spa company chooses, they could pay many thousands of dollars to have the rights to use the "Best Buy" logo in advertising. It is not a wonder that the magazine is no longer in existence (It came back, recently). It was consumer fraud. The companies that used that bogus award in their advertising were just as guilty as the magazine. It is a disgusting lie to use that in any advertising, even if the product is good.

It is the word "Consumer" that needs to be changed to "Advertiser"

Whenever you see any award on any spa site, with stars or "best buy", then you know it is a paid advertising. The latest is the poolandspa star rating on spas. It is totally based upon advertising dollars paid to the Long Island Hot Tubs site. If you watch the ratings they change from month to month based upon who stopped paying for the advertising. A "5 star" spa brand will drop into the one star really fast if they stop paying for the advertising. The clue is to look at the banner advertising on the web site.

Whatsthbesthottub.com is another advertising company that wants about $1 for each click through from their web site.

What I am saying to you in no uncertain terms is there are no real awards or testing of one spa against another. There are very few sampling of the spa companies customer service policy or even if the warranty is honored. Most all of the awards are paid for by the spa company. Most of the web sites, even the ones that sound like an impartial site are most likely attached to some form of money from spa companies. Why would anybody put up a web site and pay for all the time to put it up.

If you're not sitting down, please do so.....

I completely agree. I'll even take that one step further and question why (and HOW) EVERYONE is the best, most efficient, most comfortable, etc, etc without a true comparison. As there's no real grounds for a true comparison, how does anyone including Jim, self promote themselves as "THE BEST" without doing the work of testing EVERY SINGLE manufactuers spa and comparing them based on a set criteria? It'll never happen so the result is a bunch of posturing that can get quite comical. BTW, last I heard, a "best of class" rating on P&S is running about $30 G's...

[Jim_The_Jim]

Not For Profit Company and Organization Logos!:

If you see the logo of a not for profit foundation, like "The Arthritus Foundation", "The Lupus Foundation" or any charity, don't buy the product. It is pretty bad of a company to imply and infer that their spa (or any product) is better for these diseases than any other spa. It is also pretty bad to use one's charity in advertising. If you want to give to a charity, keep it to yourself. DONT USE CHARITY CONTRIBUTIONS IN YOUR ADVERTISING. It shows a sign of desparation and character weakness. If you must use this in your adverting that means you can't sell the product on it's own merrits. My sister has the worst form of arthritis and I don't like using the implications that one spa is better for it than another. It is pure lies to imply that. The Arthritus Foundation Should never allow their logo on any advertising. It is called "implied endorsements" and it is frowned upon by the BBB and the FTC. (It is sleazy!) Here is the quote from the BBB:

"In general, advertising which uses testimonials or endorsements is likely to mislead or confuse if:

*it is not genuine and does not actually represent the current opinion of the endorser;

*it is not quoted in its entirety, thereby altering its overall meaning and impact;

*it contains representations or statements which would be misleading if otherwise used in advertising;

while literally true, it creates deceptive implications;

*the endorser is not competent or sufficiently qualified to express an opinion concerning the quality of the product or service being advertised or the results likely to be achieved by its use;

*it is not clearly stated that the endorser, associated with some well-known and highly-regarded institution, is speaking only in a personal capacity, and not on behalf of such an institution, if such be the fact;

*broad claims are made as to endorsements or approval by indefinitely large or vague groups, e.g., "the homeowners of America," "the doctors of America";

*an endorser has a pecuniary interest in the company whose product or service is endorsed and this is not made known in the advertisement.

Advertisers should consult Federal Trade Commission Guides on Testimonials and Endorsements for detailed guidance."

Just to show you how bad this gets: I had a woman with arthritis call me and ask questions about a certain brand of hot tub. She said that the salesman told her that only H#t Sp###g spas are "approved by the Arthritis Foundation". It seems that the salesman took the Arthritis foundation on the brochure and used it to deceive customers. That is how bad this sort of deception is today.

Any hot tub or spa, used correctly, can be good for arthritis.

[Jim_The_Jim]

If you're not sitting down, please do so.....

I completely agree. I'll even take that one step further and question why (and HOW) EVERYONE is the best, most efficient, most comfortable, etc, etc without a true comparison. As there's no real grounds for a true comparison, how does anyone including Jim, self promote themselves as "THE BEST" without doing the work of testing EVERY SINGLE manufactuers spa and comparing them based on a set criteria? It'll never happen so the result is a bunch of posturing that can get quite comical. BTW, last I heard, a "best of class" rating on P&S is running about $30 G's...

I was chatting with the sales and marketing manager of a really nice spa factory, and he told me that it was like a "protection racket" or "extortion" because he had all his dealers asking him to get a star rating on that friggin web site. So they bought one, and really regretted ever doing it. Then the hired someone to do marketing for them and got away from that crap.

Enjoy Music!

[Roger]

I was chatting with the sales and marketing manager of a really nice spa factory, and he told me that it was like a "protection racket" or "extortion" because he had all his dealers asking him to get a star rating on that friggin web site. So they bought one, and really regretted ever doing it. Then the hired someone to do marketing for them and got away from that crap.

I would also like to comment on deceptive advertising, in order to help potential consumers here. Anything can be written on some pages of a web site by any joe smoe out there and can be skewed and twisted to make the product sold at that web site look better than it truely is. When someone writes "Articles" it does not nessesarily mean it was investigated and fully written to explain both good and bad sides. It again may be skewed and twisted to influence your decision. An opinion is one thing but claiming fact, and touting education is another all together.

Remember it is nothing more than a sales tool written by the same people that are trying to sell to you!! Common sence tells us that of course they want there product to sound great.

I know another company that needs to take a hard look at how they market there product. The problem is the owner thinks he is higher and mightier than everyone in the spa industry, and he will never change. But I think he is OK with his mediorcacy.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I would also like to comment on deceptive advertising, in order to help potential consumers here. Anything can be written on some pages of a web site by any joe smoe out there and can be skewed and twisted to make the product sold at that web site look better than it truely is. When someone writes "Articles" it does not nessesarily mean it was investigated and fully written to explain both good and bad sides. It again may be skewed and twisted to influence your decision. An opinion is one thing but claiming fact, and touting education is another all together.

Remember it is nothing more than a sales tool written by the same people that are trying to sell to you!! Common sence tells us that of course they want there product to sound great.

I know another company that needs to take a hard look at how they market there product. The problem is the owner thinks he is higher and mightier than everyone in the spa industry, and he will never change. But I think he is OK with his mediorcacy.

I'll tell you what. In the last 9 years on the net, I have come across a lot of really smart people who are attracted to the truth about spas. Most of them are engineers, MD's, physicists, nuclear scientists, and just plain smart shoppers. How is it that all of them can understand the laws of physics in spa design, but the majority of the spa industry is stuck in some design from 1977 to 1986. It seems that, unlike some people with very limited awarness of science, they do understand the laws of physics and will write to me and thank me for haveing the "No BS Zone" on the net for spa shoppers.

I love to read my emails from people who are so grateful for some really good information on the entire spa industry.

I'll tell you why. These people of limited understanding have been selling these products to others with the sales pitch that what they sell is "the best spa on earth".

Then I come along and apply extremely straight forward engineering to spas that should have been done many years ago, because none of it is new. It is in all the engineering books.

When you have a bunch of "old timers" who are not engineers or not even close and they totally "believe" like a religion that full foam and tiny circ pumps with really poor engineering is the ultimate, then you get the majority of the spa industry.

Then I see other companies, like Vita, who at one time had one of the best thermally closed designed spas, and was telling everybody how good it was, but these idiot dealers were not understanding the difference, because they are still "dining on ignorance", would not put them in their stores, so Vita started stuffing the cabinet with foam in order to sell to dealers who don't know anything about science. Now the Vita owners are suffering with all the plagues associated with full foam. Higher energy costs, quick freezing when the power goes off, and much more expensive leak repair.

I know because I have fixed the older Vita and they are nice to work on. Removable panels all around, easy access to all the plumbing. I have a customer here in Broomfield with one that we have been keeping functioning for the last 10 years. A couple of leaks, and one bad pump from a seal leaking, one control board repair.

That is frogging weird for me to watch.

This story is classic to what I am talking about.

Many years ago, I was working a mall show for the company I worked for in Boulder. In the next isle was a

well known full foam spa dealer. I went over to talk with him about things and he was a nice kid. The son of the owner of this older store. I asked him why they did not tell their customers about the freeze damage problems and how to deal with them. Basically he thought it was just a normal thing and that his spas were the best. He said: "That would be a negative, and there is no reason to bring a negative up during a sales presentation."

I could understand that, so I said: "Why don't you educate them after they get the spa home, because you already have the sale?"

He said: "We don't want to burst their bubble, and besides it is in the owner's manual."

Then I told him that I am the guy who has had to go out and do freeze damage estimates for many of those brands of spas and all of them could have been avoided if the owners know that the equipment is sitting in a "freezer" out in front of the spa, and when the power goes off the equipment freezes and ruined the spas.

He still thought that was just normal, because his spas were the best, and any of the best spas will do that.

Anytime you isolate the equipment from the heat in the water vessel the spas freeze fast. If you place the equipment inside a cabinet that is completely closed and insulated, you have a much longer time before any freezing can take place. This is practical engineering that is not based upon some concepts back in 1980, from Southern CA by the Mexican border where it never freezes.

Why are full foam spas still being made today? Because of the ignorance mixed with their livelihood, in the spa industry. It seems that the only way poor designs are going to go away is for these "old timers" to get with the modern times.

Two of the major spa makers use a thin cheap shell and stuff it with foam to hold it together. Without the foam there is no support. These are the worst spas on earth to repair leaks in. I have talked with many hundreds of repair people across the country and they say the same thing.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand, Roger, when many hundreds of thousands of readers of our site do understand, many of them are full foam spa owners who have experienced exactly what I have written about. One lady said my book was like reading the journal of all her spa problems with her southern California spa.

[Stevie]

Jim, are you yourself an engineer? Oh, and great post Roger and OHHHHH SO TRUE!

[paintnsunni]

MM......Jim builds more spas then you have.......what's that make you? don't use that stupid re-branded crap. you haven't built anything, perhaps cleaned a spa? why not dissprove what Jim says rather the the smear campaign? Or is that the standard M.O. to use when you can't reasonably come up with a good response to counter someones?

[Stevie]

MM......Jim builds more spas then you have.......what's that make you? don't use that stupid re-branded crap. you haven't built anything, perhaps cleaned a spa? why not dissprove what Jim says rather the the smear campaign? Or is that the standard M.O. to use when you can't reasonably come up with a good response to counter someones?

Jim doesn't build them...PHOENIX does. He rebrands them, looses all saftey certifications, adds some gimmicks and sells them at wonderful profit over the internet so he doesn't have to service them or look after his customers.

You still haven't asnswered my earlier question Paint... what is it exactly that YOU do for a living?

[paintnsunni]

And your more qualified how?

As for what I do, why does that matter. I never ask anyone here what they do......Are you grasping at straws here or what?

[Stevie]

And your more qualified how?

As for what I do, why does that matter. I never ask anyone here what they do......Are you grasping at straws here or what?

I've been in this industry longer and have more experience.

Your a shrill you looser and we all know it. I'm done with you...

[paintnsunni]

So you guys can't deal with facts and converse on the topic but revert to character attacks! No facts means you lost the discussion. I bet people you deal with love it when you resort to this low level of dealing with dissagreements!

You guys worry about my grammer. broke my wrist! your jerks!!!!

You worry about my employment.... Your jerks!!!!

You insult peoples intelligence as you being superior...your Jerks!!

I thought we where all adults but apparently I was mistaken.....

[pg_rider]

So you guys can't deal with facts and converse on the topic but revert to character attacks! No facts means you lost the discussion. I bet people you deal with love it when you resort to this low level of dealing with dissagreements!

You guys worry about my grammer. broke my wrist! your jerks!!!!

You worry about my employment.... Your jerks!!!!

You insult peoples intelligence as you being superior...your Jerks!!

I thought we where all adults but apparently I was mistaken.....

I don't see how a broken wrist is any excuse for 5th grade spelling and grammar. Just saying...

And you like to throw the word "facts" around but like I said earlier, I'm still waiting to hear ANY facts from you as to how a Costco spa is equivalent to a ~$10k big name spa. You avoided my question earlier -- will you avoid it again now?

[paintnsunni]

I don't see how a broken wrist is any excuse for 5th grade spelling and grammar. Just saying...

And you like to throw the word "facts" around but like I said earlier, I'm still waiting to hear ANY facts from you as to how a Costco spa is equivalent to a ~$10k big name spa. You avoided my question earlier -- will you avoid it again now?

MMMM same shell method and quality, hand rolled fiberglass reinforced....

MMMM Name brand spa oacs and industy leading controlls

MMMM 56 frame motors from non proprietary to quality Mfg.

MMMM ABS pan with pressure treated frameing....

MMMM same exact and jets used....

MMMM same exact plumbing and connectors....

MMMM same quality everwood exterior

All this for thousans less and no salesman to build percieved value.

[jmendoza17]

MMMM same shell method and quality, hand rolled fiberglass reinforced....

MMMM Name brand spa oacs and industy leading controlls

MMMM 56 frame motors from non proprietary to quality Mfg.

MMMM ABS pan with pressure treated frameing....

MMMM same exact and jets used....

MMMM same exact plumbing and connectors....

MMMM same quality everwood exterior

All this for thousans less and no salesman to build percieved value.

Again, Paitsunni.

When you first started posting you claimed to be a relatively new pas owner and in your own words, "no spa expert." How then do you know all this info and refuse to disclose your occupation or credentials in the spa industry. Either way, whoever you are, you have no credibility after people read your rants. Quit attacking people and go learn what "facts" are.

[Webini]

Hmm, I wonder if the mods on this site can look at the IP addresses of where certain users are posting from. I bet a couple of user names are coming from the same IP address range...

[Tyler]

Paint is very defensive for some reason. He must be afffiliated with the brand he's defending. What do you do for a living Paint? I smell a rat.

[spababe]

Again, Paitsunni.

When you first started posting you claimed to be a relatively new pas owner and in your own words, "no spa expert." How then do you know all this info and refuse to disclose your occupation or credentials in the spa industry. Either way, whoever you are, you have no credibility after people read your rants. Quit attacking people and go learn what "facts" are.

My! My! What a ding dong is going on here! I have just purchased a lovely new hot tub from a very reputable company here in the UK and am glad I did not get it from any of you dealers. This remark is not intended to be derogatory to anyone in particular but is just an observation and an eyeopener into what appears to be the shady world of spa wheeling and dealing.

You may not have thought how much damage your rantings are making on the spa scene.

More and more people are considering becoming hot tubs owners and so this forum is being read my millions of people across the world. I like Paintsunni am new to "hot tubbing" and, moreover, like many new owners were hoping this site would offer some honest, genuine unbiased advice, however, we as readers are having a peep into a very dodgy and contrived forum and are also taking note of various spa manufacturers and dealers that are playing perfidious and crooked games with our hard earnt money.

I feel this is doing the spa business alot of harm, in particular certain mentioned spas on these postings.

Sellers beware..........Public be aware!

[Roger]

MMMM same shell method and quality, hand rolled fiberglass reinforced....

MMMM Name brand spa oacs and industy leading controlls

MMMM 56 frame motors from non proprietary to quality Mfg.

MMMM ABS pan with pressure treated frameing....

MMMM same exact and jets used....

MMMM same exact plumbing and connectors....

MMMM same quality everwood exterior

All this for thousans less and no salesman to build percieved value.

I'd like to take these one at a time

1. Same shell method and qaulity.........how in the world would you know this? Do they use the same number of layers and the same type of fabric and the same mixture of resins and hardener? You have no clue.

2. Name brand spa pacs and industry leading controls.....Every manufacturer of controls and pacs makes several levels, do you really know they re useing the same level as the more expensive brands?? Again you have no clue.

3. 56 frame motors from non propprietory to qaulity manufacturer. Not sure I understand this statement as t's rather confusing but I will do my best to disect it.......again ost manufacturers use 56 frame but tht isn't impotant if a 48 frame works and puts enough PSI at the jet because of better plumbing it;s a non issue, but 56 frame motors are not created equal....ask Jim.....again you have no clue.

4. ABS pan and pressure treated framing.......ya got one right. but all pressure treating and ABS is not all created equal ( thinner ABS and cheaper treated wood and less of it) I dout you compared before you purchased...again you have no clue.

5. Same jets........See number 2, several levels, I can send you a waterway catolog if you like to compare.

6. Same plumbing and connectors....here's where your way off, the way a tub is plumbed can make a big difference on longevity of a pump and motor and how the tub feel is. How may did you wet test before you purchsed?.......

Remember I have a value brand, and it is NOT as good as several more expensive I have been in and worked on, but it is fine for me. And I would never try and justify mine as as good as a major top notch brand. But it was alot less money and it is a fine tub for my purpose.

As far as Jim is concerned paint. how much mark up do you think he has on his tubs, and be carefull because I can get Phoenix for cost, and I have seen his prices.

[paintnsunni]

1. Same shell method and qaulity.........how in the world would you know this? Do they use the same number of layers and the same type of fabric and the same mixture of resins and hardener? You have no clue.

No failures to date so stop scaring the consumer with things not a issue!

2. Name brand spa pacs and industry leading controls.....Every manufacturer of controls and pacs makes several levels, do you really know they re useing the same level as the more expensive brands?? Again you have no clue

Actually you don't know my freind. you bash without knowing! Balboa E.L series with m-7 plug it in and forget it hands off programing is simply unrivalved but you'd have known that had you actually unbiasedly looked at what your bashing!.

56 frame motors from non propprietory to qaulity manufacturer. Not sure I understand this statement as t's rather confusing but I will do my best to disect it.......again ost manufacturers use 56 frame but tht isn't impotant if a 48 frame works and puts enough PSI at the jet because of better plumbing it;s a non issue, but 56 frame motors are not created equal

Please tell me what better plumbing your reffering to? last I checked this spa utilizes the exact same plumbing all high end spas do and as to motors most people know that a 56 frame pump is much more robust and longer lasting then your cheaper' litteraly,48 frame pumps!

4. ABS pan and pressure treated framing.......ya got one right. but all pressure treating and ABS is not all created equal ( thinner ABS and cheaper treated wood and less of it) I dout you compared before you purchased...again you have no clue.

5. Same jets........See number 2, several levels, I can send you a waterway catolog if you like to compare.

6. Same plumbing and connectors....here's where your way off, the way a tub is plumbed can make a big difference on longevity of a pump and motor and how the tub feel is. How may did you wet test before you purchsed?.......

Please feel free to tell me what plumbing and level of quality jets the spa I am reffering to has if you would. How is the "lesser" tub plumbed vs. your tub? And do a comparison on the AbS pan if you would. I did! thats why I didn't buy the "expensive" spa that just had alot of fluff and no real value to justify the 5k price jump.

You would have known that had you simply looked before bashing and used your better judgement rather then biased emotion. I'ts ok though, I'ts just a tub with hot water and jets.

[Trigger]

Jim the Jim talking about deceptive adversting is like Dom Deluise talking about weight loss.

Why are the mods allowing this to go on?