Comfort

[Tom]

Several threads have touched on the topic of comfort. Many have argued that comfort is competely individual and relative and cannot be defined except in terms of the individual user's sensations. Canadian Kahuna, for example, states bluntly that "It all depends on a persons own insights and opinions." No one can deny that comfort is ultimately in the body and mind of the beholder. The term is difficult to define because it is tightly connected to individual physical and psychic sensitivity.

But I think the spa industry as a whole recognizes that there are objective criteria of comfort. We do have some idea of how to achieve it. By now, only the the smallest manufacturers rely on gut instinct alone (and probably do a fair job if those instincts are sound) in design. The larger firms also use ergonomic research and biostereometrics (body measurements) to help define the shape of a spa, in a combination of art and science.

So when Kahuna goes on to ask rhetorically, "So what's comfortable?", I think we should be able to generate an answer. Even if we are speaking of personal insights and opinions, we should be able to state those clearly and objectively.

The goal is to generate a list that newbies can use when they wet test, to help them answer the question, "What's comfortable?" by letting them know what to look for.

Here's my two bits worth, based on user comments from the forums and subject to discussion. Please note that all comments apply to a water-filled spa.

A comfortable spa

* will have at least one seat that "feels good" and fits the body size and shape of each major user

* has a safe and easy way of getting in and out, so you don't feel awkward or at risk of slipping.

* does not feel excessively crowded at full seating capacity

A comfortable seat

* has no pressure points that dig into the skin or cut off circulation.

* does not have excessive buoyancy, or provides a means to counter buoyancy, so you don't feel like you're always floating away.

* does not make you feel restricted or confined

* is the right depth, that is, it does not leave you struggling to keep your head above water

Comfortable hydrotherapy

* is adjustable, so you can set it so it feels best to you in the place you're sitting

* is convenient to use, that is, the adjustment is simple and convenient

* can be adjusted easily with wet hands

* does not irritate, you don't have to squirm to avoid it.

* provides a variety of sensations that feel pleasant

* is available to a variety of body locations

IMO it should be possible to define "Comfortable" in ways that are meaningful, sensible, relatively objective, and independent of brand.

Tom

[Chas]

IMO it should be possible to define "Comfortable" in ways that are meaningful, sensible, relatively objective, and independent of brand.

All good points. Thanks for taking time. My question is - how do we quantify this? I mean, how do I tell somebody over the 'net that a tub is comfortable or not? What numbers do we use, what words? I am not trying to dissagree, but I just don't think a tub maker can categorically state that they 'make a comfortable tub' based on some formulas or the input of specialists who later designed the seats for my Lexus. Mind you - it is obvious that Arctic has given this much thought, and I know for a fact that one or two other brands have in fact brought in doctors, engineers who specialize in ergonomics and similar things.

In my experience, I have had plenty of folks buy spas based on dry sitting only - and they found one or more seats to be useless once the tub was filled. I have had people dry sit a tub and decide to walk out - and only with urgent begging on my part did they come back and wet test, and decide the tub was perfect. OK - they decided it was good enough to buy...

An expert in ergonomics can arrange the knobs to be within reach - but in reach for what range of height? They can make a seat fit, but for what height and weight? For that matter, for what ratio of torso to leg length? For what level of 'padding,' or body fat? I tried a lounger out the other day, and it worked for me! But I have lost around 60 pounds since the last time I tried one. Same seat, same design, different me.

So what's the point? Well first of all I am not trashing anything Tom has said, nor do I want to sound like I am downplaying the claims of tub makers. Keep in mind that the ones I sell have been 'breathed on' by many experts and specialists. But don't chose a tub based on the promise it will be comfortable.

Wet test. If the spa maker you are looking at says they have engaged the services of experts to assure your comfort - that's awesome. It's a sign they are trying to do the best/be the best. But don't buy unless you try - let your backside decide.

[Roger]

specialists who later designed the seats for my Lexus.

You got a Lexus????

No, I think Tom has some very valid points. But I also think no matter how much design and engineering a company does to make something "comfortable" Your still stuck with some bozo with absolutly no background in "comfort" telling you whether it's comfortable or not as it may or may not be for them.

[Chas]

You got a Lexus????

Traded in the Benz. It was almost a year old, after all...

No, I don't have either. I was making a point.

But, Roger, who is this 'Bozo' you mentioned???

I am not saying Arctic doesn't have a comfortable spa. For that matter, I'm not even saying Phoenix spas aren't comfy. I just wouldn't buy one without a wet test, or at least a very careful dry test looking at where their seats hit my seat.

[Dr. Spa]

Had you had the Lexus, you'd know that while the seats are VERY cumfy, there's about 12 way adjustable... to fit anyone. Now when they come up with adjustable spa seating......................

Traded in the Benz. It was almost a year old, after all...

No, I don't have either. I was making a point.

But, Roger, who is this 'Bozo' you mentioned???

I am not saying Arctic doesn't have a comfortable spa. For that matter, I'm not even saying Phoenix spas aren't comfy. I just wouldn't buy one without a wet test, or at least a very careful dry test looking at where their seats hit my seat.

[Roger]

But, Roger, who is this 'Bozo' you mentioned???

I say bozo as a generic term to identify someone who is sitting in a ergonomicly designed and engineered seat and says "this don't fit me at all and is very uncomfortable" After all what's comfy to one may not be to another. And I agree, no matter how much effort anyone puts into the comfort of a specific seat, it still may not be comfy to the next guy (bozo) walking into the seat comfort test room!

12 way adjustable spa seats...hmmmmmm

[Glenn]

Several threads have touched on the topic of comfort. Many have argued that comfort is competely individual and relative and cannot be defined except in terms of the individual user's sensations. Canadian Kahuna, for example, states bluntly that "It all depends on a persons own insights and opinions." No one can deny that comfort is ultimately in the body and mind of the beholder. The term is difficult to define because it is tightly connected to individual physical and psychic sensitivity.

But I think the spa industry as a whole recognizes that there are objective criteria of comfort. We do have some idea of how to achieve it. By now, only the the smallest manufacturers rely on gut instinct alone (and probably do a fair job if those instincts are sound) in design. The larger firms also use ergonomic research and biostereometrics (body measurements) to help define the shape of a spa, in a combination of art and science.

So when Kahuna goes on to ask rhetorically, "So what's comfortable?", I think we should be able to generate an answer. Even if we are speaking of personal insights and opinions, we should be able to state those clearly and objectively.

The goal is to generate a list that newbies can use when they wet test, to help them answer the question, "What's comfortable?" by letting them know what to look for.

Here's my two bits worth, based on user comments from the forums and subject to discussion. Please note that all comments apply to a water-filled spa.

A comfortable spa

* will have at least one seat that "feels good" and fits the body size and shape of each major user

* has a safe and easy way of getting in and out, so you don't feel awkward or at risk of slipping.

* does not feel excessively crowded at full seating capacity

A comfortable seat

* has no pressure points that dig into the skin or cut off circulation.

* does not have excessive buoyancy, or provides a means to counter buoyancy, so you don't feel like you're always floating away.

* does not make you feel restricted or confined

* is the right depth, that is, it does not leave you struggling to keep your head above water

Comfortable hydrotherapy

* is adjustable, so you can set it so it feels best to you in the place you're sitting

* is convenient to use, that is, the adjustment is simple and convenient

* can be adjusted easily with wet hands

* does not irritate, you don't have to squirm to avoid it.

* provides a variety of sensations that feel pleasant

* is available to a variety of body locations

IMO it should be possible to define "Comfortable" in ways that are meaningful, sensible, relatively objective, and independent of brand.

Tom

Could of sworn i posted here yesterday? seems to be missing.....

[Roger]

Could of sworn i posted here yesterday? seems to be missing.....

Could of been worthless dribble so Chas deleted it.

[Glenn]

Could of been worthless dribble so Chas deleted it.

I see all kind of worthless dribble, I guess because it was a response to something he said it got deleted? No further comment needed, right! O what the heck if you can dish it out and cant take a simple comment and have the almighty power to delete you shouldnt moderate. If for some reason the post was never placed do to a system error, my apologies is there a way to find out ???

[Autoplay]

I see all kind of worthless dribble, I guess because it was a response to something he said it got deleted? No further comment needed, right! O what the heck if you can dish it out and cant take a simple comment and have the almighty power to delete you shouldnt moderate. If for some reason the post was never placed do to a system error, my apologies is there a way to find out ???

Maybe Conjuna hacked into the database here,and removed your post? Hard to say as,Conjuna will do anything to get a reaction.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I see all kind of worthless dribble, I guess because it was a response to something he said it got deleted? No further comment needed, right! O what the heck if you can dish it out and cant take a simple comment and have the almighty power to delete you shouldnt moderate. If for some reason the post was never placed do to a system error, my apologies is there a way to find out ???

Go ahead and make your point again. Chas doen't seem to edit too much and that which he does edit helps make this site readable, again.

[Chas]

Adjustable seating.

This is something that needs to be explored....

[Trigger]

Adjustable seating.

This is something that needs to be explored....

Funny, I was just thinking along the same lines the other night. I like to *try* to think along new lines, and was wondering what would be the possiblity/feasabuility of adjusable seating the employees similliar technology as the new air matresses/sleep systems that is all the rave in bedding?

Here's the limitations that came quickly to my mind

1) durabilty of the air bladder. (ripping / tearing / punctureing the inflatble chambers.

2) placement of jets around these bladders,or pillows.

I can however imagaine something like this working for lumbar, neck and/or raising the height of the seat. Also, instead of using air, the system could use....water. Ie little mini water bed pillows.

Am I completely out to lunch here?

How eles could one address adjusable seating in a hut tub? Inserts that manualy placed in the tub (fancy booster seats)? Some type of movable planes/framework (like a chaise lounger on your back deck works to adjust the pitch of the back rest?)

[Roger]

Funny, I was just thinking along the same lines the other night. I like to *try* to think along new lines, and was wondering what would be the possiblity/feasabuility of adjusable seating the employees similliar technology as the new air matresses/sleep systems that is all the rave in bedding?

Here's the limitations that came quickly to my mind

1) durabilty of the air bladder. (ripping / tearing / punctureing the inflatble chambers.

2) placement of jets around these bladders,or pillows.

I can however imagaine something like this working for lumbar, neck and/or raising the height of the seat. Also, instead of using air, the system could use....water. Ie little mini water bed pillows.

Am I completely out to lunch here?

How eles could one address adjusable seating in a hut tub? Inserts that manualy placed in the tub (fancy booster seats)? Some type of movable planes/framework (like a chaise lounger on your back deck works to adjust the pitch of the back rest?)

I was thinking a stand alone hydraulic system just like in a car built into the layout of the inside of the tub, completely sealed in it's own unit with nothing more than wires running through water tight grommets. Made from some kind of synthetic rubber type stuff. With the controler built into the top lip of the tub. Easily removed for repair. A release at the top built into a lift out handle. I'll brainstorm it some more.