Thinking About A Hotsprings Sovereign, Or A Costco Special

[ggsteve]

A newbie here, replacing a Costco cheapo spa that froze to death in an ice storm last month. OK, I get that the Costco is "pay less, get less", though the Evolution series they have this year seems much better than what they've had in the past, especially the cabinet.

Question 1: Does anyone have experience good or bad with these Costco Evolution Spas? The cheapo I have now was woefully underinsulated and expensive to run, are the new ones better?

What I want to avoid is "pay more, get less".

Question 2: How do you avoid this? Some of the dealers I've been to want to make me take a shower, I would compare them to used car salesmen, but that would be unfair to used car salesmen.

The Hotsprings spa seems to surface over and over as a good brand as I do my research. The local dealer has a Sovereign in his showroom with a price tag of $7500. He seems thoughtful and asked us questions about what we wanted in our spa, and he gave us the soft sell, little pressure. He even stayed late so we could wet test a Hotsprings. He didn't have a Sovereign with water in it but we tested the vanguard model. I love the moto-massage.

Question 3: How imperative is it to test the exact model that we want? I sat in the Sovereign empty so I know it's large enough for me (not true of the Jetsetter).

Question 3A: If I can't test the Sovereign, can someone tell me how different the moto-massage will feel with a 1-pump system as opposed to the 2 pumps in the Vanguard?

He told us he could make "adjustments" on the in stock tub "but he didn't know how long it would be there". (I'm in no rush, I have 2 feet of snow in my back yard preventing delivery)

Question 4: How much wiggle room does this guy have on an in stock tub? If I can get $2000 off I can probably swing the Hotsprings. If I can't I'll have to buy the Costco.

Question 4A: If I do go for the Hotsprings, can this guy deliver it to my snowy backyard without a crane? I have a path cut from the driveway to the old spa/slab (about 50')

Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me make this decision wisely.

[KIALDA]

we hear all the time about the great return policy that Costco has. I would thaw out that spa and simply return it for a refund.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Question 4: How much wiggle room does this guy have on an in stock tub? If I can get $2000 off I can probably swing the Hotsprings. If I can't I'll have to buy the Costco.

I can't see him dropping that price by $2k but asking is free. I personally wouldn't defer to the Costco option as a backup as I can't see why we should expect that Evolution spa to be of any better quality or insulating value. I see they even have the fake horsepower rating as some things never change.

I'd see how far the dealer will budge and if I didn't think I could afford a quality spa at that point I'd personally set aside the money I have ready and add the $100 a month I'd be paying to heat the Costco energy hog if I'd gone that route and come back when I could afford a quality made, well insulated spa.

Why settle for the cheaper, lesser quality spa and then spend another $60 or so a month to heat it?

[Roger]

Question 1: Does anyone have experience good or bad with these Costco Evolution Spas? The cheapo I have now was woefully underinsulated and expensive to run, are the new ones better?

What I want to avoid is "pay more, get less".

Question 2: How do you avoid this? Some of the dealers I've been to want to make me take a shower, I would compare them to used car salesmen, but that would be unfair to used car salesmen.

The Hotsprings spa seems to surface over and over as a good brand as I do my research. The local dealer has a Sovereign in his showroom with a price tag of $7500. He seems thoughtful and asked us questions about what we wanted in our spa, and he gave us the soft sell, little pressure. He even stayed late so we could wet test a Hotsprings. He didn't have a Sovereign with water in it but we tested the vanguard model. I love the moto-massage.

Question 3: How imperative is it to test the exact model that we want? I sat in the Sovereign empty so I know it's large enough for me (not true of the Jetsetter).

Question 3A: If I can't test the Sovereign, can someone tell me how different the moto-massage will feel with a 1-pump system as opposed to the 2 pumps in the Vanguard?

He told us he could make "adjustments" on the in stock tub "but he didn't know how long it would be there". (I'm in no rush, I have 2 feet of snow in my back yard preventing delivery)

Question 4: How much wiggle room does this guy have on an in stock tub? If I can get $2000 off I can probably swing the Hotsprings. If I can't I'll have to buy the Costco.

Question 4A: If I do go for the Hotsprings, can this guy deliver it to my snowy backyard without a crane? I have a path cut from the driveway to the old spa/slab (about 50')

Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me make this decision wisely.

1. There business model hasn't changed so I dout there is much different from the previously sold models.

2. There are good dealers and bad dealers. Do yourself a favor and avoid the bad ones. Pay more and get more.

3. Can't help you here as I have never tested the 2 side by side. I like the moto massage also and have felt the 1 pump one and I liked it. But you may not.

4. He does not have that much wiggle room. Maybe a few hundred to 5 but you may have to get it in extra's (steps, chems, cover upgrade)

4A. Yes piece of cake most dealers have equipment (spa trailers) to deal with deliverys in snow. You may have to make a wider path or he may have a plow to make it wider. I do.

[r5ran]

A newbie here, replacing a Costco cheapo spa that froze to death in an ice storm last month. OK, I get that the Costco is "pay less, get less", though the Evolution series they have this year seems much better than what they've had in the past, especially the cabinet.

Question 1: Does anyone have experience good or bad with these Costco Evolution Spas? The cheapo I have now was woefully underinsulated and expensive to run, are the new ones better?

What I want to avoid is "pay more, get less".

Question 2: How do you avoid this? Some of the dealers I've been to want to make me take a shower, I would compare them to used car salesmen, but that would be unfair to used car salesmen.

The Hotsprings spa seems to surface over and over as a good brand as I do my research. The local dealer has a Sovereign in his showroom with a price tag of $7500. He seems thoughtful and asked us questions about what we wanted in our spa, and he gave us the soft sell, little pressure. He even stayed late so we could wet test a Hotsprings. He didn't have a Sovereign with water in it but we tested the vanguard model. I love the moto-massage.

Question 3: How imperative is it to test the exact model that we want? I sat in the Sovereign empty so I know it's large enough for me (not true of the Jetsetter).

Question 3A: If I can't test the Sovereign, can someone tell me how different the moto-massage will feel with a 1-pump system as opposed to the 2 pumps in the Vanguard?

He told us he could make "adjustments" on the in stock tub "but he didn't know how long it would be there". (I'm in no rush, I have 2 feet of snow in my back yard preventing delivery)

Question 4: How much wiggle room does this guy have on an in stock tub? If I can get $2000 off I can probably swing the Hotsprings. If I can't I'll have to buy the Costco.

Question 4A: If I do go for the Hotsprings, can this guy deliver it to my snowy backyard without a crane? I have a path cut from the driveway to the old spa/slab (about 50')

Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me make this decision wisely.

Hi, when I was wet testing tubs last year, I did wet test a Vanguard and a Sovereign, back to back. While I can't remember the specifics of how the moto-massage felt on each model, I do remember not being impressed with the Sovereign at all. The single pump models in general, felt weaker than the 2 pump systems. But that is my opinion...So you must wet test the exact model you want. If your dealer is serious about selling, he will fill that Sovereign for you. If not, find another dealer who will.

Pay special attention to the diverter layout and how that affects each seat. Bring along your family and try every combination of seating and jets you can think of. I found that varied tremendously between tubs, even within a same company's tubs. For example, another HS model that I was considering, when I was wet testing the Moto massage lounge seat, my son sat in the recliner seat and turned the diverter on for jets in his seat, and my moto massage seat turned off! So you could not have full power to 2 of the main seats at the same time. Seemed like poor planning to me, but this is more common than you think. This would be more of a problem on a single pump tub than a dual pump one, too, so make sure you wet test, as you will not find this out unless you do!

That is one of the things I liked about the VG, pump 1 runs both Moto seats totally with no diverters, so both seats have full power without stealing from anyone else. That was a key feature to me, since most of the time it's me and the wife in those 2 seats most of the time.

I too, was originally looking in the 6k range for a tub, but after wet testing for almost a year, realized the difference between tubs in that range and the next step up was significant, and considering how long you will own this, the extra cost was well worth it.

BTW, I spent only a hundred dollars (plus tax) more for my VG last August, than you were quoted on your Sovereign, so I think you may be able to do better. (but not $2k better). I did get a very good price, but I think that with some looking, you could find some leftover 08 or even better, some 07 Vanguards out there.....

Another alternative that was about $1k cheaper, and was my second choice, is the Tiger River Caspian. While I liked the VG much better (no Moto massage on the TR), it still was an excellent value, and with the Limelights stealing alot of that market, I would think you could get a good deal on an in stock TR Caspian now.

FYI, my electric bills have gone up only about $10-$20 per month with my VG, despite the fact I live in a extremely cold area of the US and it is used every night for about an hour, even during our recent cold snap(about -20 one night) ....so it has been very efficient to use, and has been absolutely flawless in it's operation so far. I am very pleased, and don't regret spending the extra money at all.

My 2 cents...

Thanks, Randy

[mrpete]

Well, my Costco.com "special" was picked up this week and I'm getting a full refund! 5K back (that includes tax). This was an Infinity Sunburst that, get this, I ordered in March of 2008 !

Piece of inefficient junk!

I won't consider anything, online, no-name or whatever!

locally, I have:

Calderas

Marquis

D1

Hotsprings

Sundance

Jacuzzi

Its simple, I will get one of these. I've got 5K already in it, so its a question of "how much more" do I have to throw in!

Ridiculous, but If you want a good spa, you've got to spend the money!

I suppose if you tried a Costco one again you could always return it again, but why?

You'll more than likely end up where I'm at, just at a later date down the road?

[ggsteve]

Thanks for all of the input. I bought the Costco spa back in 2001 and I don't have the "testicular fortitude" to try and return that even though I have returned things there close to that old with no hassle.

Leaning towards the Hotspring but I'm still choking on the price. From what has been said here and other research I would definitely want to wet test the Sovereign, haven't found a dealer that has one set up and I'm not to the point of asking the guy I visited to completely rework his showroom, yet. The one pump and the way the water is diverted came up as a caution. Definitely can't afford an Aria and I still think the Jetsetter is way too small.

On the subject of the Siren's song of the cheapo, my local BJ's Wholesale Club has two Infinity spas with 40+ jets and what looks to be a nice layout, two pumps, chrome jets, everwood cabinet, etc. In this economy they can't give them away. They started at $4000, now down to $2500. Do you hear them calling?

[hot_water]

Thanks for all of the input. I bought the Costco spa back in 2001 and I don't have the "testicular fortitude" to try and return that even though I have returned things there close to that old with no hassle.

Leaning towards the Hotspring but I'm still choking on the price. From what has been said here and other research I would definitely want to wet test the Sovereign, haven't found a dealer that has one set up and I'm not to the point of asking the guy I visited to completely rework his showroom, yet. The one pump and the way the water is diverted came up as a caution. Definitely can't afford an Aria and I still think the Jetsetter is way too small.

On the subject of the Siren's song of the cheapo, my local BJ's Wholesale Club has two Infinity spas with 40+ jets and what looks to be a nice layout, two pumps, chrome jets, everwood cabinet, etc. In this economy they can't give them away. They started at $4000, now down to $2500. Do you hear them calling?

I would stay away from Infinity... the manufacturer is kaput, so unless the retailer you mention has made arrangements with a good service provider to honor the warranty, or offers a no-risk full satisfaction warranty similar to Costco's, I would steer clear.

I would check out the Tatum manufactured spas before you discount them. They get a bad rap here but I've looked closely at a new Gulf Coast and it's not at all the disaster that you would expect after reading this forum. In fact, the fit, finish and equipment bay layout is really nice. Unfortunately I found the particular Gulf Coast (LX9000) shell to be, for me, very uncomfortable.

All spa brands have problems, no matter how much you pay. Some are worse than others. But still, it's a roll of the dice. The best thing about Costco - and in my mind this is golden - is that if you roll and it comes up snake eyes, they will take it back "no questions asked" and you get a mulligan. You can even negotiate with them on transportation charges, although the formal policy is that you are on the hook for that. Hint: point out that their policy is "no risk"...

By the way, like you I probably couldn't bring myself to return a 2001 spa for a refund. But if you decided to do it, Costco WILL take it back with no questions asked. I was once in that sort of spot (not a spa) and felt I would be taking advantage of them. I couldn't get a part for something I bought at Costco. I told the store manager that if he would give me a break on a new one I would be satisfied. He said he couldn't do that, all he could do was give me a full refund! I decided to make the part and I kept it... still have that thing.

I'm with you on the cost of the Hotspring. To me, that's a lot of money and while it is a nicely finished product, I don't see that they are giving you a good value for that amount of money. There are some advantages... such as a better heater that will likely last longer. But that isn't enough to justify the price premium. Plus, full foam just doesn't make sense to me. Theoretically, a correctly designed thermal pane (non-foamed) tub can be designed to be just as energy stingy, or maybe even better than a full-foam tub. A poorly-done thermal pane tub can be improved easily and cheaply and will do well. Arctic (a Canadian-made brand) is a good example of a well designed thermal pane tub and has done well in at least one independent test that I'm aware of. If you have any sort of background in heat transfer or thermal enginering, or know someone that does, getting good performance out of a non-foamed tub will be pretty easy and will likely cost less than $100.

Keep in mind that the premium you pay for a Hotspring or Sundance pays for a few service calls. The pumps, controls and all that are easy to replace and for the most part are industry standard parts that you can order from a number off sources, if you're inclined to fix things yourself. The only real issue to me is the shell...and if the shell develops a problem, Hotspring or any of the other "high end" guys will fix it but they won't take the spa back. Costco will.

But in the final assessment, you have to pick the one that meets your own personal sensibilities, requirements and makes you most comfortable - both with the value proposition and while you are sitting in it!!

Good luck.

hot_water

[Roger]

I'm with you on the cost of the Hotspring. To me, that's a lot of money and while it is a nicely finished product, I don't see that they are giving you a good value for that amount of money. There are some advantages... such as a better heater that will likely last longer. But that isn't enough to justify the price premium. Plus, full foam just doesn't make sense to me. Theoretically, a correctly designed thermal pane (non-foamed) tub can be designed to be just as energy stingy, or maybe even better than a full-foam tub. A poorly-done thermal pane tub can be improved easily and cheaply and will do well. Arctic (a Canadian-made brand) is a good example of a well designed thermal pane tub and has done well in at least one independent test that I'm aware of. If you have any sort of background in heat transfer or thermal enginering, or know someone that does, getting good performance out of a non-foamed tub will be pretty easy and will likely cost less than $100.

Keep in mind that the premium you pay for a Hotspring or Sundance pays for a few service calls. The pumps, controls and all that are easy to replace and for the most part are industry standard parts that you can order from a number off sources, if you're inclined to fix things yourself. The only real issue to me is the shell...and if the shell develops a problem, Hotspring or any of the other "high end" guys will fix it but they won't take the spa back. Costco will.

But in the final assessment, you have to pick the one that meets your own personal sensibilities, requirements and makes you most comfortable - both with the value proposition and while you are sitting in it!!

Good luck.

hot_water

Let me just correct this a little bit. The heater is a better heater but the pumps, controls, hoses, fittings jets and every component is also different in the 2 classes of tubs.

Your opinion on a good value suits you and you alone. I personaly don't think Hot Springs gives you a great value but a fair one depending on the dealer. But I also don't think the cheapo box stores spas are a good value for anyone other than someone that is a do it yourselfer. And you can get inexpensive tubs from dealers that will last longer and be backed better. A return policy is great for the first year or 2 but if your not going to use it in 4-5 years then it's non exsistent. And with a dealer spa it will be right in a year or 2, they will make sure of it as there reputation is on the line and there will be no need for a return.

[104 Degrees]

By the way, like you I probably couldn't bring myself to return a 2001 spa for a refund.

Good luck.

hot_water

Whats the cost of returning the spa??(moving it)

[104 Degrees]

All spa brands have problems, no matter how much you pay.

Good luck.

hot_water

As hot-water said! ---good luck---- its 10 degrees out your on your knees at the spa on the phone with a 1-800 number,the person you are talking with is in a warm room your outside? think about it.

[hot_water]

From Roger:

>> "Let me just correct this a little bit. The heater is a better heater but the pumps, controls, hoses, fittings jets and every component is also different in the 2 classes of tubs."

Yes, these parts are different. I didn't say they were the same. The proprietary brands such as Sundance and Hotspring use parts that are in many (but not all) cases top quality. A consumer should do some research and convince himself/herself that any alternative tub also has good components. Some of the cheapos, such as the notorious and now defunct Keyes Backyard spas, had poor parts in them. But some other tubs use good stuff.

The downside that Roger doesn't mention is that the proprietary replacement parts often cost a lot more than the generics. You have to look at the total picture, not just assume that if says "Hotspring" on the box the part came in that is automatically better. It may be, it may not be... but it will likely be more expensive.

>> "Your opinion on a good value suits you and you alone."

Not just me alone. Everyone that buys one of these share my view. Some of those people post here, and many have also said (repeatedly) that they feel their purchase provided more bang for the buck than the name brands. In support of your comment, some people have been unhappy with their purchase.

My point is that everyone has different requirements. If you live in a cold climate and just want to plug and play without fooling with the insulation, then an Infinity might not be for you. If you have no mechanical aptitude, you might feel more at ease picking up the phone and let the dealer handle everything for you. Wonderful. The beauty of America is that you get a choice, depending on your circumstances and desires.

>> I personaly don't think Hot Springs gives you a great value but a fair one depending on the dealer.

We sort of agree on Hotspring value. I don't think that it ever rises to "fair". IMO, those spas are simply too expensive for what you get.

>> But I also don't think the cheapo box stores spas are a good value..."

The problem with this comment is that you lump all the "cheapo box store" spas into one class. This is just not right. There's a wide range of spas available. Personally, I think the old Keyes Backyard spas from Home Depot or Costco, which sold for $3k-4k, weren't very attractive values. But it's not correct to lump those in with the higher end models, some of which use very good components and have a very good feature set.

By the way, this is true even with name brand spas. You know as well as I do that within each brand, the manufacturer uses different components to achieve their price point -- just as true with Hotspring or Sundance as it is with any other spa. The lower priced models from the name manufacturers have lower quality innards and fewer features.

>> "...for anyone other than someone that is a do it yourselfer."

Lots of people aren't DIYers and don't want to be. But it isn't accurate to say that they HAVE to be, you can always pay money to get service. My local Sundance dealer will come out and service any spa, they don't really care, as long as they get paid.

Warranty repairs could be an issue if the manufacturer goes under or has poor service to begin with and the retailer is unresponsive. Home Depot comes to mind. I personally wouldn't buy a spa or anything similar from Home Depot. Costco seems to do better, and supports the cutomers in the event of warranty service. I have first-hand experience in this.

>>"A return policy is great for the first year or 2 but if your not going to use it in 4-5 years then it's non exsistent."

I don't even understand this comment. You're clearly referring to the Costco return policy, which is, per Costco, "no risk, full satisfaction guarantee". There is no time limit. If the thing falls apart, requires too many repairs, or whatever, they take it back. Period. You, the consumer, are in control. If you feel that you got your value, dn't use the return policy. If you feel the thing didn't deliver the value you expected, return it. How can you possibly discount this? It makes no sense to me.

Bottom line, you won't be stuck with a lemon, you won't be stuck with a poor performer, and you won't be stuck with a fatal post-warranty problem. You can't beat this for peace of mind. There is no parallel to this in any dealer spa that I am aware of.

>> "And with a dealer spa it will be right in a year or 2, they will make sure of it as there reputation is on the line and there will be no need for a return."

Are you suggesting that after the warranty is up, the dealer spas never develop a fatal problem? Come on Roger, that doesn't even make any sense.

and from 104 Degrees:

>> "Whats the cost of returning the spa??(moving it)"

SpaMovers Bay Area (I am in the San Francisco, CA area) charges $250 for everything except electrical hook up/disconnect. Crane is extra, I don't know how much.

Seems to me better to risk losing $500 ($250 to install, $250 to return) than to be stuck with a multi-thousand dollar problem. Plus, you can negotiate with Costco over this cost. They do consider their policy to be "no-risk".

>> "...its 10 degrees out your on your knees at the spa on the phone with a 1-800 number,the person you are talking with is in a warm room your outside? think about it."

Well, you would have to be out of your mind to do this. So don't do it. In my experience with a Costco spa, you are offerd the choice of troubleshooting it yourself over the phone (gets you back in business if it's a simple or easy fix) or having them send a tech.

I don't see a poblem with this, do you?

[Roger]

From Roger:

>> "Your opinion on a good value suits you and you alone."

Not just me alone. Everyone that buys one of these share my view. Some of those people post here, and many have also said (repeatedly) that they feel their purchase provided more bang for the buck than the name brands. In support of your comment, some people have been unhappy with their purchase.

Here we go again. I think I will just defer from this conversation as there really is no value in it for me. However, everyone that buys one of these cheapo box store tubs does not think they are a good value. At least youve shown a tab bit of support for the thousands and thousands of people that were so unhappy they returned them in the first year. A couple post here you are right but the warehouse full of busted spas and there previous owners don't.

[hydrospadan]

Does anybody know what Costco does with the returned spas??? Do they sell them to backyard

socalled spa rebuilders to resell with the same problems they had. Just wondering. Is there a spa graveyard somewhere. Would it be unreasonable to return a Hydrospa manufactered Mar of 2006?????

[asharerin]

Does anybody know what Costco does with the returned spas??? Do they sell them to backyard

socalled spa rebuilders to resell with the same problems they had. Just wondering. Is there a spa graveyard somewhere. Would it be unreasonable to return a Hydrospa manufactered Mar of 2006?????

Whenever you return an item to Costco then Costco receives a credit back for their cost of the unit from the manufacturer. Costco is out a bit of labor cost in originally processing and then returning your order but that is it. Most of the time the manufacturer does not want the item back so then the employees get to buy the returned item at a good discount. Everybody wins except the manufacturer of the inferior product (the way it should be).

If you need to return a hot tub to Costco call them up and they will organize to pick it up for free. They have the resources to really take care of their members and staff which is why they are so successful.

If you are going to buy a tub with the intent of returning it then I would advise purchasing from Costco. If you want a tub that lats more than 3 years then obviously look elsewhere. If you live in an area with high electricity costs then you will come out about even in buying and returning from Costco or buying a better quality brand from a dealer.