Questions; Spa Vs Climate

[AlpineGirl]

Hello All.

I am brand new here, and just was hoping for some information, input, or experience with spas in cold places; like Calgary, Canada.

I think we've narrowed it down to D1 Diplomat, and the HotSpring Envoy.

Since I am no 'construction' wiz, I just wanted any thoughts on whether one spa would be any different than the other, with regards to the cold winters here (down as far as -30°C)

Cheers & Thanks for your help!

AlpineGirl

[Roger]

Hello All.

I am brand new here, and just was hoping for some information, input, or experience with spas in cold places; like Calgary, Canada.

I think we've narrowed it down to D1 Diplomat, and the HotSpring Envoy.

Since I am no 'construction' wiz, I just wanted any thoughts on whether one spa would be any different than the other, with regards to the cold winters here (down as far as -30°C)

Cheers & Thanks for your help!

AlpineGirl

Those are both great choices if they fit your budget and your backside. Find some comfort in the dealer and your all set.

[Sandy T]

HI Check out Arctic Spas which is located on Center Avenue at Paradise Bay, which is behind the Chinook LRT. Arctic is manufactured outside of Edmonton ( I know your from Calgary...but there are some good things from that area ) You will find it really is a product designed for the harsher climate in Alberta. Plus Paradise Bay has been around forever.

Hello All.

I am brand new here, and just was hoping for some information, input, or experience with spas in cold places; like Calgary, Canada.

I think we've narrowed it down to D1 Diplomat, and the HotSpring Envoy.

Since I am no 'construction' wiz, I just wanted any thoughts on whether one spa would be any different than the other, with regards to the cold winters here (down as far as -30°C)

Cheers & Thanks for your help!

AlpineGirl

[Glenn]

Hello All.

I am brand new here, and just was hoping for some information, input, or experience with spas in cold places; like Calgary, Canada.

I think we've narrowed it down to D1 Diplomat, and the HotSpring Envoy.

Since I am no 'construction' wiz, I just wanted any thoughts on whether one spa would be any different than the other, with regards to the cold winters here (down as far as -30°C)

Cheers & Thanks for your help!

AlpineGirl

Welcome AlpineGirl! I live in Ontario and chose the Arctic after doing alot of research it fit my needs the best, I prefer the heatloc method that they use and how it can stay unfrozen, pumps plumbing etc if the power went out for an extended period of time, one note to you is that everyone here like there tub the best, to really decide you have to go shopping, look and test if you like, buying a hot tub is like buying a used car, there is alot of BS, shady salesmen, especially here on this site lol.

I didnt take to long for the negatives to come rolling in, as you can see i must of annoyed Roger as it seems in the next post, I am just giving an opinion Roger sheesh, I too thought you were different maybe you had a bad Friday the 13th, take a pill. And by the way I didnt know Arctic had a bad rap, could you point it out somewhere???

[Roger]

Speaking of shady salesman, she asks about a couple brands and gets an Arctic pitch. Who's shady? Wow!!

And Arctic owners wonder why Arctic gets a bad rep. Seems everyone who buys one goes through sales training. Alpinegirl asked a simple question and I bet she wasn't looking for an Arctic sales pitch. At least I didn't see it in her post.

[wesj53]

Roger, I have usually found your posts to be respectful and educational. But I must respond to your comments here. To make the statement that Arctic gets a bad rap because of Arctic owners having strong opinions is not fair nor accurate. I think both of the prior posts were in response to a newbie who was looking for advice on "spas in cold places". And while she specifically named 2 brands/models, the implication was that she was open to hearing more suggestions. And IMO, neither post was a "sales pitch", rather just a recommendation. I thought that's what these forums were all about. Should there be rules now as to what people can post and what they cannot?

I think Arctic gets a bad rap because they're different and the "establishment" in the spa industry IMO doesn't like different. A lot dealers for example, don't give credit to HS for their innovations like the MotoMessage; they would rather call it a gimmick when in reality it is an interesting concept for jetting water. Heck, dealers love to recite the "cool aid" or "swallowing the sales pitches" lines rather than crediting people like me who think they have thought their way thru the process and educated themselves on what they think to be the best products. And I don't think Arctic owners are more opinionated than any other owners; maybe just more vocal because they truly think they have bought a great product! It indeed gets tiring to hear industry types who are so cynical that they think consumers don't have brains that function. We only fall for "sales pitches". That's condescending and untrue!

[cloose]

Hi Alpinegirl, fellow Calgarian here.

You are definately in the right city for a lot of quality choices. I believe I read somewhere that Calgary has the highest per capita Hot Tubs at least in Canada! (Easy to see really, with how many dealers there are)

I just purchased my Tub a month ago. While I cannot comment on the D1 as I never did go to Trail and look at them, I can at least vouch for the HS dealership. One of the reasons I liked them was their sales approach was in the quality of their own product, not simply a slam against everyone else (which was most predominant at the Beachcomber and Arctic dealerships) There were a couple minor issues after delivery. One quick phone call, and everything was cheerfully taken care of.

Ultimately, you should choose whatever Tub is most comfortable for you and at the dealership you trust the most. There are several in Calgary that have been in business for 20+ years (Arctic, Beachcomber, Moose Mountain, Rocky Mountain (HS) to name a few) so I cannot see any of these lasting that long in our climate without good products.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Roger, I have usually found your posts to be respectful and educational. But I must respond to your comments here. To make the statement that Arctic gets a bad rap because of Arctic owners having strong opinions is not fair nor accurate. I think both of the prior posts were in response to a newbie who was looking for advice on "spas in cold places". And while she specifically named 2 brands/models, the implication was that she was open to hearing more suggestions. And IMO, neither post was a "sales pitch", rather just a recommendation. I thought that's what these forums were all about. Should there be rules now as to what people can post and what they cannot?

I think Arctic gets a bad rap because they're different and the "establishment" in the spa industry IMO doesn't like different. A lot dealers for example, don't give credit to HS for their innovations like the MotoMessage; they would rather call it a gimmick when in reality it is an interesting concept for jetting water. Heck, dealers love to recite the "cool aid" or "swallowing the sales pitches" lines rather than crediting people like me who think they have thought their way thru the process and educated themselves on what they think to be the best products. And I don't think Arctic owners are more opinionated than any other owners; maybe just more vocal because they truly think they have bought a great product! It indeed gets tiring to hear industry types who are so cynical that they think consumers don't have brains that function. We only fall for "sales pitches". That's condescending and untrue!

I am the proponent for changes in the spa industry. I am pretty tired of all the "used car salesman" crap that I hear all the time. Arctic is a good choice, and they are on the correct track in maintaining quality.

Most are maintaining BS and cost cutting in the products to make MO Money!

There are dealers who are taught to use a lot of BS and to be nice or to appear nice, but in reality their products are cheaply made overpriced junk, and many of those companies did not start out that way. The money got to their hearts and became the only motivation after a while.

[AlpineGirl]

I do appreciate everyone's insight, and I think that "cloose" makes a good point; no dealer would last in this city (with the chilly winters) for very long without having a quality product. And a quality product should definitely sell itself.

Do you know who dealt D1 before Trail? I hadn't thought to ask them.

I haven't wet-tested the HS yet, but that will be next week.

Thanks again everyone.

AlpineGirl

[cloose]

I do appreciate everyone's insight, and I think that "cloose" makes a good point; no dealer would last in this city (with the chilly winters) for very long without having a quality product. And a quality product should definitely sell itself.

Do you know who dealt D1 before Trail? I hadn't thought to ask them.

I haven't wet-tested the HS yet, but that will be next week.

Thanks again everyone.

AlpineGirl

I am not really sure if anyone dealt D1 before Trail got into them recently. That is the one brand I never checked out. (Pretty much looked at all others in the city - which is a large sampling of brands as I am sure you know)

Who were you talking to at Rocky Moutain? I bought mine off Rob Neal (General Mgr) In fact, when you go back in, tell him that Craig Loose says Hi. Keep us up to date on what you buy. I am sure that you will be happy regardless.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Hey Alpine,

I live in Northern Ontario, common for it to drop to -40C or lower for weeks at a time here. Personally, i have an Arctic and love it, but relatives have other brands from reputable companies without problems in our climate. Seems like you are on the right track there. Now find one that fits you the best comfort and budget wise. I love my tub, and if you haven't checked out Arctic, maybe give them a look as they are also reputable (my store here anyways, great staff and support). But i won't knock any of the tubs you mentioned, as i know owners of those and they love them as well. Good luck on your quest, and i hope i don't get bashed for mentioning Arctic, lol . . . after all, i'm not a dealer, just a consumer who did a lot of research . . . . my results: Many good brands, many good dealers, but found what best suited my needs and comforts with a good dealer and solid spa (and the runnings were close among others).

[Roger]

Roger, I have usually found your posts to be respectful and educational. But I must respond to your comments here. To make the statement that Arctic gets a bad rap because of Arctic owners having strong opinions is not fair nor accurate. I think both of the prior posts were in response to a newbie who was looking for advice on "spas in cold places". And while she specifically named 2 brands/models, the implication was that she was open to hearing more suggestions. And IMO, neither post was a "sales pitch", rather just a recommendation. I think Arctic gets a bad rap because they're different and the "establishment" in the spa industry IMO doesn't like different.

I'm sorry Wes but that's just not how I see it. She asked about 2 brands and you read my reply. Simple and concise. Then a couple Arctic pitches come flying in outa no where and neither had much to help her regarding her question about the 2 brands she has narrowed it down 2. Plain and simple sales retoric regading Arctic. While being adament about your purchase is a good thing, pitching that brand on a web forum is not.

And I also don't think there rep comes from there difference because there are plenty of tubs out there that do it the same way, maybe they use a different material for insulation but the concept is the same on several brands. There rep comes plain and simple from them being touted as superior to everything else and it seems they are so energy effiecient they are feeding power back to the grid. People who purchase them are continually pushing others to look at them because "they did piles of research" and "the ARC study"....it gets sickening.

I'm hear to help and I don't push any brand regardless of my feelings on it. Anybody wants my opinion they can ask me in private. If I have something good, or bad to say about a particular brand I will not push it here to keep from offending one or the other. In all of this did you hear me bad mouth Arctic and say anything regarding there quality or the tub in general?

Give our posters something helpfull like those are fine brands you should be happy with either of them, I personaly own and Arctic and it is also a fine tub. Instead of an Arctic sales pitch. Or if you don't know anything about the brands asked about, don't say anything.

[Autoplay]

I've always found Roger to be helpful,and respectful of others. I personally,happen to value Rogers opinions as,he tells it like it is,and doesn't beat around the bush etc.

Conjuna on the other hand,garnishes a different kind of respect from me lol.

[wesj53]

Good morning Roger! I don't think this subject merits an elevation of emotions; rather a comment to regain clarity. The 2 Arctic posters had nothing negative to say about any other brand; they were simply suggesting looking at Arctic. The newbie clearly stated she THOUGHT they had narrowed their selection down to the 2 brands mentioned, but she certainly implied she was open to other ideas. I may be wrong, but that was my interpretation (as well as probably others).

Yes, your response was short and concise, but quite honestly, that response seems to be the universal one given on these sites. "yes, those brands are good; wet test, etc". I would suggest that sometimes prospective buyers want more info than just that pat answer. I see absoutely nothing wrong with people pointing out differences between brands And it can be done nicely without slamming the competition. Isn't that what these sites are about?

Re: your comments about Arctic's rep (I assume you mean reputation), Arctic DOES present a different mfg process - no one can debate that. In fact, to my knowledge, they are the ONLY mfg NOT to foam the underside of the shell, so they are indeed unique in that regard. To explain that to newbies I think is fine. What's wrong with educating folks? And I'm sorry you're sick of the ARC studies, etc but it seems interesting to me that once again Arctic is the only mfg that has published any kind of report on spa efficiencies. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most consumers would welcome more info than less.

[cloose]

Three quick thougts IMO,

1. Brand suggestion is not neccesarily a bad thing, however, a quick post to suggest that the OP maybe look into a brand would be sufficient. More than that is salesmanship unless directly asked for.

2. One of the Arctic posts WAS nothing other than a pitch (notice that Sandy T WORKS for Arctic)

3. Alpinegirl, If you are concerned with FF vs TP, check out Moose Mountain as well, as they build 'em with the same method as Arctic, so there are other choices out there. If you would rather buy based on dealer and wet test comfort, than forget about most of what is posted on internet forums, and have fun picking out the tub you like best.

[Roger]

Good morning Roger! I don't think this subject merits an elevation of emotions; rather a comment to regain clarity. The 2 Arctic posters had nothing negative to say about any other brand;

I'm going to leave it alone as we are off subject already, lets just agree to dissagree as to how we each see the 2 responses after mine.

And thanks Auto, You also have been an interesting read.

And good evening Wes. I have been building a houses stud walls all day so I need my tub, right now.

[Canadian Kahuna]

Conjuna on the other hand,garnishes a different kind of respect from me lol.

Uhm, who's "Conjuna"? LOL

[Roger]

Uhm, who's "Conjuna"? LOL

Forget it Kahuna. You don't want to know.

Hey forgot to ask you, how's it going up there? Get out bird hunting or fishin or anything this fall, have a good summer?

[Sandy T]

Well I really started something didn't I. Also I don''t recall on that message actually giving a Arctic Pitch, I must have missed it somewhere in my short posting, because ifthere was an Arctic pitch it would have been a much much longer message, as you know us Arctic guys do like to talk. .Actually my comment initially was meant to reply to a Cold Weather spa, and if your shopping for a cold weather spa it wouldn't be complete without at least looking at Arctic, since it is also manufactured in Alberta. Also some people aren't as familiar with the Calgary market as I am, having lived there and surrounding area for many years , (like the gentlemen says , there are alot of spa companies there, especially along Hot Tub Row there on Center Ave.) Dear Alpine, D1 is new to the area and Trail has just started carrying them in the past year or so. Your doing the right thing, get afeel for the people your doing business with, how long have they been doing business and wet test, wet test, wet test. Good luck in your purchase and the important thing is that you get in hot water, tis the season!!

[Canadian Kahuna]

Forget it Kahuna. You don't want to know.

Hey forgot to ask you, how's it going up there? Get out bird hunting or fishin or anything this fall, have a good summer?

Yup, summer was great, but happier fall is here. Can't stand heat myself, fall is fav time of year, and winter. No time for fishin' this summer . . . . . saved my time off for hunting season. Have to put the shotgun away till i eat some of these birds (have my posession limit of Partridge . . . only allowed 15 per person total, 5 per day limit . . . good year for them). Got out moose hunting for a few days . . . woke up to -15C and 3 inches of snow on the ground one morning . . . crawling out of a tent to that wasn't nice. Saw 3 moose first day but couldn't shoot . . . was half hour before legal time . . . cow, calf and bull all 30 yards away :-( . . . second day 20 feet from a bull, but only have tag for cow and calf. Coulda had all the deer i wanted but don't start hunting them till November anyways (and don't wanna spook the moose with the shots). . . but back out next week, should get my moose on Sunday. And always nice to come back and jump in a nice, warm hot tub . . . that's the best part of spending week(s) out in the bush! Coming back to my tub.

Sorry, off topic, but oh well . . .

[Roger]

Yup, summer was great, but happier fall is here. Can't stand heat myself, fall is fav time of year, and winter. No time for fishin' this summer . . . . . saved my time off for hunting season. Have to put the shotgun away till i eat some of these birds (have my posession limit of Partridge . . . only allowed 15 per person total, 5 per day limit . . . good year for them). Got out moose hunting for a few days . . . woke up to -15C and 3 inches of snow on the ground one morning . . . crawling out of a tent to that wasn't nice. Saw 3 moose first day but couldn't shoot . . . was half hour before legal time . . . cow, calf and bull all 30 yards away :-( . . . second day 20 feet from a bull, but only have tag for cow and calf. Coulda had all the deer i wanted but don't start hunting them till November anyways (and don't wanna spook the moose with the shots). . . but back out next week, should get my moose on Sunday. And always nice to come back and jump in a nice, warm hot tub . . . that's the best part of spending week(s) out in the bush! Coming back to my tub.

Sorry, off topic, but oh well . . .

Yes off topic but I think it's a done thread anyway. Lots of birds down here also, seems I can hit em a little better anyway....LOL I think a few days in the woods is in order for me also as I share your vigor for the fall, early winter season.

[wesj53]

Three quick thougts IMO,

1. Brand suggestion is not neccesarily a bad thing, however, a quick post to suggest that the OP maybe look into a brand would be sufficient. More than that is salesmanship unless directly asked for.

2. One of the Arctic posts WAS nothing other than a pitch (notice that Sandy T WORKS for Arctic)

3. Alpinegirl, If you are concerned with FF vs TP, check out Moose Mountain as well, as they build 'em with the same method as Arctic, so there are other choices out there. If you would rather buy based on dealer and wet test comfort, than forget about most of what is posted on internet forums, and have fun picking out the tub you like best.

1) I think any reader of this forum that thinks by pointing out characteristics of spas (especially if they're unique like MotoMessage or Heatlock, etc) is salesmanship is hyper-sensitive. Again, I thought that's what these sites are for as well as answering questions about water chemistry, equipment malfunctions, etc. NO ONE is putting a gun to someone's head to buy a specific brand. Give some credit to the intelligence of a poster here who can discriminate between brands and decide for themselves which is best for them.

2) Sandy is not the only industry type who recommends their brand. This site is filled with salespeople who blow their own horn; some more than others, but it exists on a regular basis.

3) With that statement, I guess you now agree that it's ok to not only recommend another brand but ALSO to tell the prospective buyer that MM is built the same way as Arctic. (you broke your own rule) But I don't care (and neither should anyone) because you just educated me about a brand I had never heard of and I appreciate that! What's wrong with information. In the sales field, we have a saying, "education enhances performance". The same goes for consumerism.

I'm going to leave it alone as we are off subject already, lets just agree to dissagree as to how we each see the 2 responses after mine.

And thanks Auto, You also have been an interesting read.

And good evening Wes. I have been building a houses stud walls all day so I need my tub, right now.

That's good by me Roger. I guess we just look at these sites and their purpose/goal a bit differently. I hope the tub helped with the aches and pains. My baseball season is almost over but volleyball starts up soon. I could have used the tub a month ago but better late than never.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm sorry Wes but that's just not how I see it. She asked about 2 brands and you read my reply. Simple and concise. Then a couple Arctic pitches come flying in outa no where and neither had much to help her regarding her question about the 2 brands she has narrowed it down 2. Plain and simple sales retoric regading Arctic. While being adament about your purchase is a good thing, pitching that brand on a web forum is not.

And I also don't think there rep comes from there difference because there are plenty of tubs out there that do it the same way, maybe they use a different material for insulation but the concept is the same on several brands. There rep comes plain and simple from them being touted as superior to everything else and it seems they are so energy effiecient they are feeding power back to the grid. People who purchase them are continually pushing others to look at them because "they did piles of research" and "the ARC study"....it gets sickening.

I'm hear to help and I don't push any brand regardless of my feelings on it. Anybody wants my opinion they can ask me in private. If I have something good, or bad to say about a particular brand I will not push it here to keep from offending one or the other. In all of this did you hear me bad mouth Arctic and say anything regarding there quality or the tub in general?

Give our posters something helpfull like those are fine brands you should be happy with either of them, I personaly own and Arctic and it is also a fine tub. Instead of an Arctic sales pitch. Or if you don't know anything about the brands asked about, don't say anything.

The answer is simple. One dealer and two spa owners. These guys are spa owners, not sales person like you who sells D1 and forgets to tell people that is what you do.

Taking a design from Southern California and expecting it to work well in a super cold environment is not a good idea.

[Dr. Spa]

WARNING! EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS! YOUR LIFE MY DEPEND ON IT !!!!!!

Before you go out in any winter weather, CHECK THE LABEL in your clothing!! If it was made in Taiwan, DO NOT GO OUTSIDE! It rarely gets below 70 degrees there and they can't possibly make clothing that will keep you warm. You could FREEZE to death.

If you own a Jaguar, DO NOT DRIVE THIS CAR. It's made in England, where they drive on the left side of the road. How can they possibly make a car that can be driven on the right?

(come on folks, lets add to this )

[Jim_The_Jim]

WARNING! EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS! YOUR LIFE MY DEPEND ON IT !!!!!!

Before you go out in any winter weather, CHECK THE LABEL in your clothing!! If it was made in Taiwan, DO NOT GO OUTSIDE! It rarely gets below 70 degrees there and they can't possibly make clothing that will keep you warm. You could FREEZE to death.

If you own a Jaguar, DO NOT DRIVE THIS CAR. It's made in England, where they drive on the left side of the road. How can they possibly make a car that can be driven on the right?

(come on folks, lets add to this )

It is the "DESIGN" that is the problem. The first time I came across this problem with spas designed for southern CA, was in the winter of 1995 where the company that I worked for had a lot of service customers. There was a winter storm that took out all the overhead powerlines for two weeks.

All of the standard full foam designed (original design from San Diego area) spas had freeze damage, and none of the Coleman thermo lock had any freeze damage. That is what woke me up from the full foam myth along with customers who told me there electric bills.

If you place the equipment in a box and isolate it from the spa vessel heat, you are asking for trouble in cold winter climate. Why own a spa like that?

The Thermally Closed design is far superior to all those out of date designs from Southern CA.

You actually think it is a good idea to put the equipment in a frozen box out in front of the spa? When the power is cut, the equipment freezes first. Even while the spa is running it is losing heat from the box in front. This is 2006 I believe, not 1980.