What Is Important Is Spa Shopping To Consumers

[Jim_The_Jim]

Thats what I thought completly unsealed from the outside world. Just a big ole vented nothing.

I have given you a couple better more logical choices on how to do this without just drilling random holes to vent your cabinet. What a stupid idea. Use gravity dampers Jim, they close and seal the space from the wind just blowing in willy nilly. You have a fan for cooling in summer, and most of your models use and air blower for bubbles, if you use gravity dampers you can duct any incoming air right across your pump motor for cooling of the motor or warming of the air for injection. And you can also grab air from a specific area, way up high where the hottest air is, to get a better cooling affect in summer. Holes, even drilled in the bottom of the cabinet is a cheap barnyard style of venting an insulation system like yours. get your head outa your behind and take some advice from this guy you call an idiot. The effect on my moter is unbeilievable for cooling in summer. The warm air is evacuated so fast in winter for air injection that it is barely noticable, so there are still bugs. But the gravity dampers are an off the shelf Grainger item and when installed on a sealed cabinet they are a proffesional looking fit. Unlike holes drilled.

Oh wait. I don't have a clue...sorry.

I am sorry that you don't understand about what sealed means. There is no way for air to go in without mechanical force or vacuum. Take a jar and hold it upside down and put warm air in it. How does air enter if the air does not escape.

[tumbleweed]

I am sorry that you don't understand about what sealed means. There is no way for air to go in without mechanical force or vacuum. Take a jar and hold it upside down and put warm air in it. How does air enter if the air does not escape.

You are becoming a true wast of time.

So cold air enters the tub when the blower is turned on, and warm air escapes....Iget it now!!!

[Stevie]

So Jim, are you a LICENCED, ticketed electrical engineer as you have stated a number of times or a self proclaimed one?

[Dennnis]

I live in the Northeast.

When I buit my house I did not insulate the floor because I felt that the furnace would leak heat into the basement and the heat would warm the firat floor.

Well it did not work.

I then insulated the floor and I got a warm floor.

I would think a fully foamed insulated tub would be the same as my insulated floor. and a thermal tub would be like my hope of the furnace keeping my floor warm without insulation it did not work.

A thermal tub maybe good in warmer parts of our country but here in the north give me full foam.

[Altazi]

Hello Dennis,

Your concept would have worked, except for the fact that your furnace doesn't throw out large quantities of heat OUTSIDE of its output duct.

The typical spa jet pump motors are between 50% and 75% efficient, and can put out about 250W/hp (or more) of "waste" heat. This is a sizable percentage of the heater's power capability. Therefore, it is reasonable for the spa manufacturers to attempt to capture some of this waste heat and use it to heat the water in the tub.

Regards,

Altazi

PS - The numbers: 1hp = 746W. For 1hp output power, a 75% efficient motor requires 995W of input power. The 249W of "overhead" is largely wasted as heat. At full load, a 3.5hp motor that is 75% efficient requires 3481W of input power; of this, 870W is mostly waste heat.

[wesj53]

I live in the Northeast.

When I buit my house I did not insulate the floor because I felt that the furnace would leak heat into the basement and the heat would warm the firat floor.

Well it did not work.

I then insulated the floor and I got a warm floor.

I would think a fully foamed insulated tub would be the same as my insulated floor. and a thermal tub would be like my hope of the furnace keeping my floor warm without insulation it did not work.

A thermal tub maybe good in warmer parts of our country but here in the north give me full foam.

You MUST be a FF dealer! I have never heard of anyone that has EVER insulated the floor of a house regardless of the location. There must be something else going on in your house (maybe non-concrete foundation walls that leak cold air?) that has caused this phenomena because it certainly is an anomaly. And to extend this questionable logic to hot tubs is certainly a stretch IMO. This debate must get old for you industry types, because it sure is for me as a newcomer. Until a study comes along that proves that FF is cheaper to operate than a Heatlock system as well as cheaper to repair in the case of a leak, then I will maintain that the latter is the preferred choice.

[Chas]

You MUST be a FF dealer! I have never heard of anyone that has EVER insulated the floor of a house regardless of the location. ... And to extend this questionable logic to hot tubs is certainly a stretch IMO.

Wes, ease up.

I'm sure it is true that you have never seen a house with an insulated floor, but the rest of us certainly have. And to compare the insulation scheme for an air-filled building to the insulation scheme for a water-filled hot tub - one with temps around 70F and the other at 101F or more - is not a very defensible argument.

I'm glad you chose TP insulation. That's what makes free enterprise free. But to try to make such broad statements about the differences is problematic, and you may not realize just how much it sounds like a personal attack. I would hope you didn't mean it that way, but I would like to ask you to cool it a bit if you did.

FF has strengths and weaknesses, so does TP. To only say that FF costs more to fix leaks leaves out the very important truth that it also is far less likely to have a leak due to the full support of the plumbing. TP recycles the heat from the motors - but so do many FF spas to a lesser extent. Not all, but certainly the leading sellers. TP tubs are known to overheat in warm weather thanks to that very same heat recycling. Strength and weakness on both sides. Cost of operation not much different.

So as I have said many times - to chose a spa based on the type insulation is not a good idea. Yes, there are some tubs out there with virtually NO insulation, I would avoid those no matter how cheap they are. Go with one of the larger name-brands and you will have about the same cost of operation. Look for comfort performance and style. Wet test: let your backside decide.

[BigD]

You MUST be a FF dealer! I have never heard of anyone that has EVER insulated the floor of a house regardless of the location.

Umm... I live in NH, and there's a whole lotta insulation in the basement ceiling (aka first floor)...

Last time I checked, I'm not a hot tub dealer. Hold on....

...........

..................

.........................

Nope! Still not.

[wesj53]

Wes, ease up.

I'm sure it is true that you have never seen a house with an insulated floor, but the rest of us certainly have. And to compare the insulation scheme for an air-filled building to the insulation scheme for a water-filled hot tub - one with temps around 70F and the other at 101F or more - is not a very defensible argument.

I'm glad you chose TP insulation. That's what makes free enterprise free. But to try to make such broad statements about the differences is problematic, and you may not realize just how much it sounds like a personal attack. I would hope you didn't mean it that way, but I would like to ask you to cool it a bit if you did.

FF has strengths and weaknesses, so does TP. To only say that FF costs more to fix leaks leaves out the very important truth that it also is far less likely to have a leak due to the full support of the plumbing. TP recycles the heat from the motors - but so do many FF spas to a lesser extent. Not all, but certainly the leading sellers. TP tubs are known to overheat in warm weather thanks to that very same heat recycling. Strength and weakness on both sides. Cost of operation not much different.

So as I have said many times - to chose a spa based on the type insulation is not a good idea. Yes, there are some tubs out there with virtually NO insulation, I would avoid those no matter how cheap they are. Go with one of the larger name-brands and you will have about the same cost of operation. Look for comfort performance and style. Wet test: let your backside decide.

Ok, I'll ease up, but as an insurance agent here in metro Chicago inspecting lots of homes. I have never, ever seen or even heard of a home with insulation on the basement ceiling! I also insure contractors and have never once heard anyone that has ever done that here in the midwest! The statement sounded preposterous to me, but maybe they do things a lot different out east. Sorry for the leap. In terms of my purchase, I didn't buy a TP system; rather the Heatlock which is a different method in terms of no insulation on the bottom of the shell. I will say this, Chas, since I'm still learning about this industry and have purchased one of the more expensive brands in the market, I will surely be honest about my reactions to the Arctic. (my delivery in about 3 weeks).

[jfish]

Ok, I'll ease up, but as an insurance agent here in metro Chicago inspecting lots of homes. I have never, ever seen or even heard of a home with insulation on the basement ceiling! I also insure contractors and have never once heard anyone that has ever done that here in the midwest! The statement sounded preposterous to me, but maybe they do things a lot different out east. Sorry for the leap. In terms of my purchase, I didn't buy a TP system; rather the Heatlock which is a different method in terms of no insulation on the bottom of the shell. I will say this, Chas, since I'm still learning about this industry and have purchased one of the more expensive brands in the market, I will surely be honest about my reactions to the Arctic. (my delivery in about 3 weeks).

Hudson Valley New York basement ceilings are insulated. It may even be a building code when the basement walls are not insulated and finished.

[Altazi]

Ok, I'll ease up, but as an insurance agent here in metro Chicago inspecting lots of homes. I have never, ever seen or even heard of a home with insulation on the basement ceiling! I also insure contractors and have never once heard anyone that has ever done that here in the midwest! The statement sounded preposterous to me, but maybe they do things a lot different out east. Sorry for the leap. In terms of my purchase, I didn't buy a TP system; rather the Heatlock which is a different method in terms of no insulation on the bottom of the shell. I will say this, Chas, since I'm still learning about this industry and have purchased one of the more expensive brands in the market, I will surely be honest about my reactions to the Arctic. (my delivery in about 3 weeks).

Hello Wesj53,

I was curious - as an insurance agent, have you had any claims relating to spas? You could be in an interesting position in having unique information.

Again, congratulations on your purchase! I look forward to hearing your feedback.

Regards,

Altazi

[Chas]

Ok, I'll ease up, ... I will say this, Chas, since I'm still learning about this industry and have purchased one of the more expensive brands in the market, I will surely be honest about my reactions to the Arctic. (my delivery in about 3 weeks).

Thank-you kind sir -

I look forward to hearing about your Arctic experience. From what I have seen they make a fine product.

If its not premature, let me welcome you to Spatopia !!

The hardest part is the waiting...

[wesj53]

Hello Wesj53,

I was curious - as an insurance agent, have you had any claims relating to spas? You could be in an interesting position in having unique information.

Again, congratulations on your purchase! I look forward to hearing your feedback.

Regards,

Altazi

No, Altazi, I have never had a claim on a hot tub related problem. Insurance is a very complex subject so I'm not sure this is the right place and time for a long diatribe on what is covered and what is not. Suffice to say, a specific "what if" would have to be posed for me to answer a question about coverage.

[Altazi]

Well, I would guess that the policies are written in such a way as to specify obscure, yet widely encountered conditions under which the customers' claims can be denied.

My internal cynic tells me that the insurance companies are there to pay dividends to their stockholders, not to help out their policy holders.

Am I close to the mark?

Best regards,

Altazi

[wesj53]

Well, I would guess that the policies are written in such a way as to specify obscure, yet widely encountered conditions under which the customers' claims can be denied.

My internal cynic tells me that the insurance companies are there to pay dividends to their stockholders, not to help out their policy holders.

Am I close to the mark?

Best regards,

Altazi

A typical cynical response to the insurance industry and to insurance companies, which makes this one of the worst, and most negative businesses to be in. While I am not a cheerleader of companies (mainly for the lack of support they give us agents), I do defend the insurance contract which is very specific (yet confusing) as to what is covered and what is not. Yes, companies are in business to make money (who isn't?) and return a dividend (if they are a stock company), but they are also there to serve their policyholders and make the appropriate and legal payouts on covered, legitimate claims. Only the worst of carriers will try to avoid paying claims, but they are the exception, not the rule. It's kind of like the spa industry; most of the companies try and make the best possible product with some offering great customer service if something goes wrong within the warranty period while others make themselves unaccessible or make warranty matters difficult for their clients.

[Altazi]

A typical cynical response to the insurance industry and to insurance companies, which makes this one of the worst, and most negative businesses to be in. While I am not a cheerleader of companies (mainly for the lack of support they give us agents), I do defend the insurance contract which is very specific (yet confusing) as to what is covered and what is not. Yes, companies are in business to make money (who isn't?) and return a dividend (if they are a stock company), but they are also there to serve their policyholders and make the appropriate and legal payouts on covered, legitimate claims. Only the worst of carriers will try to avoid paying claims, but they are the exception, not the rule. It's kind of like the spa industry; most of the companies try and make the best possible product with some offering great customer service if something goes wrong within the warranty period while others make themselves unaccessible or make warranty matters difficult for their clients.

Nothing personal, of course. I figured that you would be one of the "good guys"!

One of our friends was in the insurance business, and we had all of our stuff through him. He was great. Unfortunately (for us), he decided to move to a different industry, and his replacement was worse than useless. It all depends upon the relationship with your agent.

I guess there's a parallel to the spa industry, as well; the support of a good, local dealer looks like it will weigh heavily in my decision on the spa.

Long ago, a company president (Harvard MBA) once asked me "what is the purpose of our business?". I naively responded, "To make the best product we can, provide value and support to our customers," etc., etc. He replied, "No, the purpose is to provide value to our stockholders." So, I became a bit more cynical that day. Or, at least I understood the real nature of business.

Regards,

Altazi

[wesj53]

Nothing personal, of course. I figured that you would be one of the "good guys"!

One of our friends was in the insurance business, and we had all of our stuff through him. He was great. Unfortunately (for us), he decided to move to a different industry, and his replacement was worse than useless. It all depends upon the relationship with your agent.

I guess there's a parallel to the spa industry, as well; the support of a good, local dealer looks like it will weigh heavily in my decision on the spa.

Long ago, a company president (Harvard MBA) once asked me "what is the purpose of our business?". I naively responded, "To make the best product we can, provide value and support to our customers," etc., etc. He replied, "No, the purpose is to provide value to our stockholders." So, I became a bit more cynical that day. Or, at least I understood the real nature of business.

Regards,

Altazi

Nothing personal assumed Al. Your agent probably moved to a different industry for less work at more pay with a lot less headaches (just my guess). Yes, the agent means a lot and I try to provide the best possible service, but in my business (like a lot of others) most people are just interested in the cheapest price. And because there are only subtle differences between insurance policies (which most folks don't want to understand anyway), selling and maintaining clients is sometimes very difficult.

Selling spas on the other hand at least gives the sales person the opportunity to differentiate his product from the competitors by physical features and various engineering standards. I find it interesting, but then again I'm not dealing with the spa buying public. We all have our problems in making a living!

Re: stockholders. It is the way it is. Just remember, the capitalist economic model has provided the highest average standard of living for those of us who are lucky enough to experience it. Maybe that's why the US has more people immigrating here in a year than all the rest of the countries of the world combined!

Now let me end this subject matter before I bore to death all of the readers of this thread!

[Dennnis]

Sorry I am not a dealer but I am a former home builder.

In the Northeast you need to insulate the foundation or the floor.

If you prevent air infultration you lower your heating cost.

Nothing worse than stepping on a cold tile floor, Unless you have radiant heating system.

A house is built a lot like a TP spa, you have a thermal barrier, things insude your house, like people, appliances etc. give off heat which is held in the house by the insulation in the floors, walls and ceiling.

While thess may give you some heat during mild weather, it's not going to keep you warm unless your boiler is running in cold weather.

As far as full foam tub goes I can not see how it should be an issue if your in a cold part of the country to have extra insulation. Heat from pumps I am sure would offer a TP tub heat in mild weather conditions.

Consdering heat loss is greatest in your ceiling we add extra insulation to the ceiling, this is the same as a good cover on your tub, the better the cover the better heat is retained. Adding a thermal foam blanket to your spa should also prevent heat loss by keeping the heated water from the bottom of the cover.

One thing I think people should consider is if your spa is on a concrete pad in cold weather you may want a thick rubber pad between your spa and the concrete to prevent transfer of cold from the slab to the tub material. Not a big deal but if your looking to save money on your utilities it may help.

I am not an engineer and this is only a guess on my part but from years of camping i always found the addition of a foam pad under my sleeping bag keep your back my warmer than sleeing on just the tent floor when the ground was cold.

Now for repairing a leak in a FF tub would this not be like finding a leak in an inslated wall be it a pipe or a broken wire, yes you need to do some extra work by removing the insulation to get at the problem but on the cold nights your happy you have the insulation in the wall.

This said I do not own a spa but I am in the process of buying one.

I have read a lot and talked to owners and I am going for a FF tub. I also plan to use the thermal blanket and rubbber pad under my tub, and also use a tarp over my cover in bad weather.

If I lived in the South I would go for a TP tub.

[wesj53]

Sorry I am not a dealer but I am a former home builder.

In the Northeast you need to insulate the foundation or the floor.

I WONDER WHY THE MIDWEST IS DIFFERENT THAN THE NORTHEAST. NO ONE INSULATES FLOORS HERE AND FLOORS ARE WARM. ARE NOT YOUR BOILERS/FURNACES LOCATED IN THE BASEMENT WHICH WARM THAT AIR; THEREBY ELIMINATING THE NEED FOR INSULATION ON THE FLOOR?

If you prevent air infultration you lower your heating cost.

Nothing worse than stepping on a cold tile floor, Unless you have radiant heating system.

A house is built a lot like a TP spa, you have a thermal barrier, things insude your house, like people, appliances etc. give off heat which is held in the house by the insulation in the floors, walls and ceiling.

While thess may give you some heat during mild weather, it's not going to keep you warm unless your boiler is running in cold weather.

As far as full foam tub goes I can not see how it should be an issue if your in a cold part of the country to have extra insulation. Heat from pumps I am sure would offer a TP tub heat in mild weather conditions.

I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR REASONING. ALMOST EVERYONE HERE AGREES THAT TP DESIGNED TUBS WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE IN COLDER CLIMATES, NOT MILDER.

Consdering heat loss is greatest in your ceiling we add extra insulation to the ceiling, this is the same as a good cover on your tub, the better the cover the better heat is retained. Adding a thermal foam blanket to your spa should also prevent heat loss by keeping the heated water from the bottom of the cover.

One thing I think people should consider is if your spa is on a concrete pad in cold weather you may want a thick rubber pad between your spa and the concrete to prevent transfer of cold from the slab to the tub material. Not a big deal but if your looking to save money on your utilities it may help.

I am not an engineer and this is only a guess on my part but from years of camping i always found the addition of a foam pad under my sleeping bag keep your back my warmer than sleeing on just the tent floor when the ground was cold.

THAT IS WHY TP SYSTEMS HAVE INSULATING FOAM ON THE INTERIOR BOTTOMS OF THEIR CABINETS!

Now for repairing a leak in a FF tub would this not be like finding a leak in an inslated wall be it a pipe or a broken wire, yes you need to do some extra work by removing the insulation to get at the problem but on the cold nights your happy you have the insulation in the wall.

TP SYSTEMS HAVE INSULATION ON THE WALLS ALSO!

This said I do not own a spa but I am in the process of buying one.

I have read a lot and talked to owners and I am going for a FF tub. I also plan to use the thermal blanket and rubbber pad under my tub, and also use a tarp over my cover in bad weather.

WHY WOULD YOU PLACE A THERMAL BLANKET AND RUBBER PAD UNDER YOUR TUB, WHEN THERE IS 100% FOAM INSULATION ALREADY UNDER YOUR FF SHELL? I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE DOING THIS.

If I lived in the South I would go for a TP tub.

YOUR SOUND SOMEWHAT CONFUSED ON FF VS TP BASED ON SOME OF THE STATEMENTS YOU HAVE MADE. I WOULD DO SOME MORE RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BUY!

[Roger]

Wes I disagree that the Thermal Pane design works better in colder climates. I don't think it has an advantage over Fully Foamed at all. I think both methods work about equaly as good as long as the TP design is done properly.

[wesj53]

Wes I disagree that the Thermal Pane design works better in colder climates. I don't think it has an advantage over Fully Foamed at all. I think both methods work about equaly as good as long as the TP design is done properly.

Hey Roger. Yes, I suppose we could start beating that dead horse on this issue so I won't start now. I do agree that many of the cheaper TP brands don't seem to be very effective according to reports here and on other forums on the amount of energy used. Most TP systems it seems do not have enough insulation around the perimeter of the cabinet, or they insulate the bottom of the shell which actually, IMO, self defeats the purpose of the TP by not allowing the heat from the chamber to help warm the shell. That is why I believe Arctic has it right in terms of fully insulating the perimeter and NOT insulating the shell. In terms of whether this system is more energy efficient than FF products, I believe the ONLY study published to date is the one that was commissioned by Arctic and performed by the Alberta Research Council. The study indicates that Arctic's Heatlock actually is less expensive to operate than FF products. I now you will probably argue about it's validity, but to my understanding, the study was performed fairly. It would be interesting if a FF mfg followed Arctic's lead and commissioned another study by a research group of their choice. Do you think that HS or Jacuzzi/Sundance, the 2 thought-to-be largest mfgs would spend the $$ to do so?

[Altazi]

Hey Roger. Yes, I suppose we could start beating that dead horse on this issue so I won't start now. I do agree that many of the cheaper TP brands don't seem to be very effective according to reports here and on other forums on the amount of energy used. Most TP systems it seems do not have enough insulation around the perimeter of the cabinet, or they insulate the bottom of the shell which actually, IMO, self defeats the purpose of the TP by not allowing the heat from the chamber to help warm the shell. That is why I believe Arctic has it right in terms of fully insulating the perimeter and NOT insulating the shell. In terms of whether this system is more energy efficient than FF products, I believe the ONLY study published to date is the one that was commissioned by Arctic and performed by the Alberta Research Council. The study indicates that Arctic's Heatlock actually is less expensive to operate than FF products. I now you will probably argue about it's validity, but to my understanding, the study was performed fairly. It would be interesting if a FF mfg followed Arctic's lead and commissioned another study by a research group of their choice. Do you think that HS or Jacuzzi/Sundance, the 2 thought-to-be largest mfgs would spend the $$ to do so?

Horse? Dead horse? I don't see any horses around here, dead or otherwise. I do see a pulpy mess on the ground with a couple of bones sticking out, though

I don't know all there is to know about spas, but I do know quite a bit about things electrical - including motors. The typical 75% efficient motor will produce about 250W of "waste" heat per motor horsepower - at full load. When you start talking about two or three 2+hp pumps running simultaneously, your motors can be pumping out well over 1kW of heat. Doesn't it seem a shame not to try to pump some of that "waste" heat back into the water? After all, the heat that is supplied by the motors is heat that DOESN'T need to be supplied by the heater. I have also seen some spa motors whose efficiencies are closer to 50% - talk about heat!!!!

Regards,

Altazi

[Dr. Spa]

Let me see if I can put a little perspective on this. You make a good and interesting point, but I think there's something missing.

So lets say these 2 pumps put out 1kw of waste heat per hour. I'll even be generous and, lets say the spa is used for one hour every day. BUT, that's only one hour per day the pumps are generating heat. What happens for the other 23 hours a day???? What if the reduced amount of insulation, (and additional air infiltration) causes the spa to lose 2kw hours worth of heat during those 23 hours?

Horse? Dead horse? I don't see any horses around here, dead or otherwise. I do see a pulpy mess on the ground with a couple of bones sticking out, though

I don't know all there is to know about spas, but I do know quite a bit about things electrical - including motors. The typical 75% efficient motor will produce about 250W of "waste" heat per motor horsepower - at full load. When you start talking about two or three 2+hp pumps running simultaneously, your motors can be pumping out well over 1kW of heat. Doesn't it seem a shame not to try to pump some of that "waste" heat back into the water? After all, the heat that is supplied by the motors is heat that DOESN'T need to be supplied by the heater. I have also seen some spa motors whose efficiencies are closer to 50% - talk about heat!!!!

Regards,

Altazi

[Altazi]

Let me see if I can put a little perspective on this. You make a good and interesting point, but I think there's something missing.

So lets say these 2 pumps put out 1kw of waste heat per hour. I'll even be generous and, lets say the spa is used for one hour every day. BUT, that's only one hour per day the pumps are generating heat. What happens for the other 23 hours a day???? What if the reduced amount of insulation, (and additional air infiltration) causes the spa to lose 2kw hours worth of heat during those 23 hours?

No, nothing was missing from my post. I was merely pointing out that it seems desirable to capture some of the waste heat from the motors. I wasn't discussing the effects of poor insulation. Furthermore, I never said that the motors were the ONLY heat source - I would expect that the thermostat would force the heater (and pump) to turn on as necessary. My point was, that with some of the motor's waste heat being captured in the water, the heater wouldn't need to come on as often. It certainly seems better than dumping 1kW+ of heat out into the air.

Of course, you are correct - poor insulation would negate any gains you'd get in capturing the waste heat from the motors. Poor insulation will also require the heater to turn on more frequently. This is why having good insulation is of paramount importance.

Regards,

Altazi

[Roger]

No, nothing was missing from my post. I was merely pointing out that it seems desirable to capture some of the waste heat from the motors. I wasn't discussing the effects of poor insulation. Furthermore, I never said that the motors were the ONLY heat source - I would expect that the thermostat would force the heater (and pump) to turn on as necessary. My point was, that with some of the motor's waste heat being captured in the water, the heater wouldn't need to come on as often. It certainly seems better than dumping 1kW+ of heat out into the air.

Of course, you are correct - poor insulation would negate any gains you'd get in capturing the waste heat from the motors. Poor insulation will also require the heater to turn on more frequently. This is why having good insulation is of paramount importance.

Regards,

Altazi

I recorded 122 degrees right next to the motor during filtration after 30 minutes of running. On the opposite side of the cabinet I recorded 100 degrees in outside ambients above 60 and a slow and steady increase to about 105 untill 87 degrees the highest I tested, after a full filter cycle. Now lets talk about decreasing temperatures. I barely got 105 18 inches from the motor when the outside ambient was 10 above, and I have a whole lot of data on temperatures inbetween and lower but you get the idea. Now how much of this "Heat" goes into the water, IMO very little if any, and I would classify it more as "warmth" to keep the cabinet temp as high as the water to reduce heat loss not increase effieciency. And this is only during motor run time which is about 20 percent of the day. The other 80 percent of the day the effieciency is, well suspect after as long as it takes for air infiltration to increase.

As someone stated Arctic is as close as I have seen to getting it right but it is far from perfect and all it does for them in the TP quest to get it right is get them even with the FF style of insulation. So to say TP is better in cold climates is flat out wrong.

And if someone brings up that damn ARC study again I will shoot myself!!!!