Suggestions For Short List Of Hot Tubs

[utah]

This forum is tremendous. Thanks for all the information from previous conversations.

I would like to narrow the field to 3 or 4 tubs to wet test. Here is what we are looking for (in order of priority):

1. Safety - I have a 6 year old and and 3 year old girl who will be using the tubs ONLY when myself or my wife are in the tub with them. Two concerns...hair getting caught in pump suction and/or electricity issues.

2. Low Operating & Maintenanc costs - I live in Park City, Utah. We have COLD winters and I don't like wasting energy (or money).

2a. Warranty - an excellent warranty would be a big plus.

2b. Dealer reputation/fairness/attitude

3. Ease of use - we rent our house to families on ski vacations occasionally. I'd like something as simple to operate as possible.

4. Sits 6 to 8 people. Primary use of tub will be entertainment. Hydrotherapy is secondary.

5. Non-wood siding. I love the look but don't see myself staining the side of the tub every six months.

6. Look of unit. It would be nice if the tub were "georgeous" and had something that made it "pop". I've heard the light units in tubs can be nice.

Thanks everyone -- I appreciate your input!

[East TX Spa]

HotSpring Grandee.

Meets or exceeds every one of your criteria.

Terminator

[deestruhart]

I know of some of the reputable dealers with good customer service, warranty, non-wood siding, good parts nice look, lock down covers, and great reputation.

Hot Springs, Caldera, sundance, Bullfrog, Dimension 1, Dynasty.

Caldera Spas has a nice look, great warranty, reputable dealers, lock down insulated covers, An energy pro circulation pump and heating system, ozone systems to save you on chemicals, easy to use digital controls and lots more. wwwcalderaspas.com. Good Luck!

[Hot H2o]

This forum is tremendous. Thanks for all the information from previous conversations.

I would like to narrow the field to 3 or 4 tubs to wet test. Here is what we are looking for (in order of priority):

1. Safety - I have a 6 year old and and 3 year old girl who will be using the tubs ONLY when myself or my wife are in the tub with them. Two concerns...hair getting caught in pump suction and/or electricity issues.

2. Low Operating & Maintenanc costs - I live in Park City, Utah. We have COLD winters and I don't like wasting energy (or money).

2a. Warranty - an excellent warranty would be a big plus.

2b. Dealer reputation/fairness/attitude

3. Ease of use - we rent our house to families on ski vacations occasionally. I'd like something as simple to operate as possible.

4. Sits 6 to 8 people. Primary use of tub will be entertainment. Hydrotherapy is secondary.

5. Non-wood siding. I love the look but don't see myself staining the side of the tub every six months.

6. Look of unit. It would be nice if the tub were "georgeous" and had something that made it "pop". I've heard the light units in tubs can be nice.

Thanks everyone -- I appreciate your input!

If you purchase a Dimension One Nautilus with LED Lighting it will meet or exceed each one of your expectations. Get the UltraLife shell. It has a lifetime shell and is fully insulated. Great ozone and water management system, no buffing or waxing, great pumps and powerful jets. There is no lounge so there is plenty of room and everyone faces eachother. It also has adjustable headrests with 4 neck jets. No maintenance sidding and you can put it on any surface. www.d1spas.com and go to the Reflections Series. You can see it there and also find a local dealer. You live in a nice place.

[hottub.pool_boy]

Term's got it. It's a Hot Spring Grandee in Sterling Marble interior and Coastal Grey exterior

[Pathfinder]

Go with any Calspa in an 8' configuration that has the True Blue Safety suction system Who else can boast a vacuum release system for the suction area beside Hot Spring " which has no suctions on the bottom of the tub"...... What a minute that doesnt conform to BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

[Chas]

I would like to narrow the field to 3 or 4 tubs to wet test. Here is what we are looking for (in order of priority):

1. Safety - I have a 6 year old and and 3 year old girl who will be using the tubs ONLY when myself or my wife are in the tub with them. Two concerns...hair getting caught in pump suction and/or electricity issues.

HotSpring is one of the only tubs on the market which does not put any suction fittings in the bather area. They run all water through filters before it enters the pumps and plumbing, and they put those filters in an area segregated from the bathing area. However, just about any tub with a UL or ETL listing will be safe, IF you keep the filters clean. These tragic accidents you read about from time-to-time happen in commercial and in-ground tubs, usually built in place or built before safe designs were incorporated.

However, as a tub owner, you find another reason to keep the hair out of the water: foam! It is easy to foam up a spa by dunking heads into the water, so most long-term spa owners tell the kids to play and 'swim' elsewhere and keep the spa as a 'mellow zone.'

2. Low Operating & Maintenance costs - I live in Park City, Utah. We have COLD winters and I don't like wasting energy (or money).

Most any name-brand tub will give you low operating costs. This is a hotly-debated issue here, but in reality the difference in operating costs has more to do with keeping your spa cover closed and in good shape, and how much you use the jets. Also, a larger spa will always cost more to run than a smaller one - surface area - and a spa with huge jet pumps is obviously going to cost more to run than a tub with more moderate pumps, given the same amount of use.

2a. Warranty - an excellent warranty would be a big plus.

Read them. Don't panic about the exclusions too much - again, if you are going with a name-brand player the warranty is there to help you and them both. However, there is one notable tub maker who offers a 'lifetime warranty' on the shell. Read it - they actually offer seven years, and then from that point on you have to ship your spa back to the factory for further coverage. I am not knocking it: most warranties end at seven years period, so they are offering something good. But it sounds like something very different when they simply call it 'lifetime.' Also, there are different levels of coverage according to the different levels of spas in a makers lineup: HotSpring and Tiger River are the same, but the Hot Spot and Solana spas have shorter warranty periods. This is true in most brands, but some don't make it as easy to spot and you may end up ordering a spa that does NOT carry the warranty you were told about or shown. Easy fix: see the warranty in writing for the model you are buying before you sign.

2b. Dealer reputation/fairness/attitude

3. Ease of use - we rent our house to families on ski vacations occasionally. I'd like something as simple to operate as possible.

You will want ozone - with a constant circulation pump. This is not an end-all cure-all, but it does help with tubs which sit most of the time. Better filtration is important here: the folks who rent from you will leave amazing things behind. It is natural since they most likely don't own a tub at home - and because they will often come home from a hard day on the slopes and jump right into the tub. This is hard on any tub, but more so on units without top-notch filtration.

4. Sits 6 to 8 people. Primary use of tub will be entertainment. Hydrotherapy is secondary.

I would then look for open seating. In the HotSpring line, that would be the Grandee as mentioned above. It is the largest tub, and doesn't have a recliner. It also has smaller pumps and fewer jets than some of the other HotSpring models - enough for you to enjoy a great massage, but not so many as to run up your electric costs or make a ton of racket when running.

5. Non-wood siding. I love the look but don't see myself staining the side of the tub every six months.

Most tubs offer this now.

6. Look of unit. It would be nice if the tub were "gorgeous" and had something that made it "pop". I've heard the light units in tubs can be nice.

This is very subjective, of course, but at least know this: most tubs have color-changing lighting as standard, or available, and most now use LED lighting behind a lens. I would stay away from tubs with dozens of little LED lights all over simply because those are each a penetration of the hull of the unit, and add to the leak potential as well as the complexity. Water features are nice, but keep in mind that they invite splashing and playing by the younger visitors in a rental environment. The Grandee has a mellow little 'stream' type of waterfall, back lit in blue. Jacuzzi/Sundance has some great-looking sheet waterfalls, back lit as well. There are a lot to look at - Even the Tiger River tubs: Caspian and Bengal - have basic waterfalls backlit in blue now.

Thanks everyone -- I appreciate your input!

No charge. Did we mention a wet test? Very important. And if you can find a dealer or service tech who you would trust with a key to your vacation home, so much the better - unless it is easy for you to meet them there when something comes up, or in case of a long-term power outage. OR - if you plan to use a management company, be sure they know about tubs. I don’t know how important this would be except that renters can be tuff on any tub… I have cared for lots of tubs in vacation homes on the beach, and most need to be drained after every family leaves, especially if they are there for a week.

And, if power boxes or shut offs can be mounted outside, somewhat near the tub, so much the better.

[BigD]

This forum is tremendous. Thanks for all the information from previous conversations.

I would like to narrow the field to 3 or 4 tubs to wet test. Here is what we are looking for (in order of priority):

<snip!>

Thanks everyone -- I appreciate your input!

My recommendation would also be a D1 Nautilus with an LED light system (http://dimensionone.com/spa_selector.asp?spa=9).

Most quality tubs you will find will be safe for use, and will have relatively the same operating costs (within $5-10/mo, my guess). The D1 warrantees are very good, and cover just about everything for 5 years.

The Nautilus is a "7" seater, but will seat really 6 people, and 4-5 people comfortably. All of the 8 seaters I have seen really don't seat 8 people, unless they are all midgets or midget-dwarves.

D1 spas come in non-wood siding and a variety of colors. My recommendation would be to NOT get the ultra-life shell, as it is quite boring-looking (all-white), and, even though the shell is warranteed for life, you have to ship the shell to California (you pay shipping) for repairs after the first (7?) years. The D1 comes in a terrific platinum color with chrome jet covers (very sharp!).

My only concern for you is the "ease of use" for renting to others. If you really intend to let renters use your hot tub, then perhaps your *only* choice is to go with a D1 with the all-white ultra life shell. The shell has a more textured surface for better grip. In addition, the shell is more dent and scratch resistant than other shells (and hides the scratches better).

My recommendation is *not* to allow renters to use your hot tub, because it will lead to a significantly shorter life span for your hot tub, and will also greatly increase your liability. Just think of your renters spilling drinks and food in your tub .... scratching it with their jewelry .... breaking off the jets and neck rests .... getting drunk then falling out of your hot tub (or passing out and drowning in it)!

I almost purchased the D1 Nautilus with a platinum shell, but instead went with the Caldera Niagra (http://www.calderaspas.com/Spa_Showroom_Ho...om_niagara.html) with the Sterling Marble color, grey cabinet and full LED light system.

I'd also recommend the Caldera hot tub as well. I love the color, as it looks very stylish in the daylight, but doesn't impact the lightshow from the LED's at night. The tub seats 7 people, 5 people comfortably, and 4 people *extremely* comfortably (i.e. you can practically lay down) . I've fit 6 in it at once, it was ok but I was a little cramped (I'm 6', 225lb).

The Caldera is very easy to operate. The LED lights sequence, or can be set to a single color. In addition, the outside illuminates as well. The tub has an illuminated handle to make getting in and out easier, and an adjustable illuminated waterfall. It has a 5 year warranty, and the electricity cost so far has been relatively low, but I can't really judge the cost objectively as I got it when I moved in to my new house.

If usage is any testament, I can't get my fiancee out of the thing! Also, whenever we have family or friends over, they always hop in the hot tub.

Hope this helps!

-D

[Brulan1]

My recommendation would also be a D1 Nautilus with an LED light system (http://dimensionone.com/spa_selector.asp?spa=9).

Most quality tubs you will find will be safe for use, and will have relatively the same operating costs (within $5-10/mo, my guess). The D1 warrantees are very good, and cover just about everything for 5 years.

The Nautilus is a "7" seater, but will seat really 6 people, and 4-5 people comfortably. All of the 8 seaters I have seen really don't seat 8 people, unless they are all midgets or midget-dwarves.

D1 spas come in non-wood siding and a variety of colors. My recommendation would be to NOT get the ultra-life shell, as it is quite boring-looking (all-white), and, even though the shell is warranteed for life, you have to ship the shell to California (you pay shipping) for repairs after the first (7?) years. The D1 comes in a terrific platinum color with chrome jet covers (very sharp!).

My only concern for you is the "ease of use" for renting to others. If you really intend to let renters use your hot tub, then perhaps your *only* choice is to go with a D1 with the all-white ultra life shell. The shell has a more textured surface for better grip. In addition, the shell is more dent and scratch resistant than other shells (and hides the scratches better).

My recommendation is *not* to allow renters to use your hot tub, because it will lead to a significantly shorter life span for your hot tub, and will also greatly increase your liability. Just think of your renters spilling drinks and food in your tub .... scratching it with their jewelry .... breaking off the jets and neck rests .... getting drunk then falling out of your hot tub (or passing out and drowning in it)!

I almost purchased the D1 Nautilus with a platinum shell, but instead went with the Caldera Niagra (http://www.calderaspas.com/Spa_Showroom_Ho...om_niagara.html) with the Sterling Marble color, grey cabinet and full LED light system.

I'd also recommend the Caldera hot tub as well. I love the color, as it looks very stylish in the daylight, but doesn't impact the lightshow from the LED's at night. The tub seats 7 people, 5 people comfortably, and 4 people *extremely* comfortably (i.e. you can practically lay down) . I've fit 6 in it at once, it was ok but I was a little cramped (I'm 6', 225lb).

The Caldera is very easy to operate. The LED lights sequence, or can be set to a single color. In addition, the outside illuminates as well. The tub has an illuminated handle to make getting in and out easier, and an adjustable illuminated waterfall. It has a 5 year warranty, and the electricity cost so far has been relatively low, but I can't really judge the cost objectively as I got it when I moved in to my new house.

If usage is any testament, I can't get my fiancee out of the thing! Also, whenever we have family or friends over, they always hop in the hot tub.

Hope this helps!

-D

Hotsprings, Coleman, Marquis, Master, Artic, Sundance, and jacuzzi are all very good spa's in no particular order. They all offer great product for good prices. Also look into the dealer as well.

[grahamtasia]

The HotSpring Grandee.

[Jim_The_Jim]

The HotSpring Grandee.

Shopping list for your hot tub search.

1/ Look for hot tubs that are easier to repair. As the hot tub ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the hot tub should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the hot tub. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple concessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane hot tub, the heat is dissipated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam, in a fully foamed hot tub, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for hot tubs with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of hot tubs use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay through the nose" for it.

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for hot tubs with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper hot tubs will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good. The safest is to use steel boxes. If you put a 50 amp or a 60 amp sub panel in your home, you would never pass code if the panel was made of plastic for fire reasons. Steel is by far best container for electrical panels and control boxes. Aluminum is OK but not as safe as steel. (We have always used steel, and in 10 years we have had three boxes with electrical arcing. You could not even see the evidence of it until the box was opened. Then you saw all the black and melted parts. This can happen in any control box. You do not want any power junctions exposed outside of a metal housing. This stops the possibilities of fire.)

6/ Look for hot tubs that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the hot tub is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the hot tub has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on hot tub pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These hot tubs have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the hot tub should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the hot tub that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the hot tub. For instance, our least expensive hot tubs have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end hot tubs have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump hot tub with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the hot tub as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any hot tub that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid hot tubs that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a hot tub by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The hot tubs they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable hot tub. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about hot tubs and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy hot tubs that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conforming. The largest manufacturer of portable hot tubs does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any hot tub company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertising. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the hot tub company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertising. The hot tub industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because hot tub shoppers do not know anything about hot tubs. All of the advertising on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[tumbleweed]

Very good suggestions by all, any of these spas, except the Haven, would be good choices. look for good dealer support and you should be happy.

[Altazi]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

Altazi here. I know some of Jim's points are contentious, as there are many here in favor of full-foamed spa construction, but by and large, his advice posted above seemed reasonable to me. Rather then tell the readers to ignore everything he said, could you please address each of his items separately? This is a good opportunity to educate many of us new to the world of spas.

Also, many of you may be associated in some way with the spas you are recommending. In the interests of fair play, it would seem best to present this information up front. There is nothing wrong with believing in the products you sell, or promoting them in this venue, but I would like to know if I am receiving truly objective advice. Thanks!

[Jim_The_Jim]

Altazi here. I know some of Jim's points are contentious, as there are many here in favor of full-foamed spa construction, but by and large, his advice posted above seemed reasonable to me. Rather then tell the readers to ignore everything he said, could you please address each of his items separately? This is a good opportunity to educate many of us new to the world of spas.

Also, many of you may be associated in some way with the spas you are recommending. In the interests of fair play, it would seem best to present this information up front. There is nothing wrong with believing in the products you sell, or promoting them in this venue, but I would like to know if I am receiving truly objective advice. Thanks!

Atazi; We started building hot tubs because there were no brands of tubs I could sell. The last good quality hot tub was the Hercules models back in 96 and 97. They were designed by an engineer Buzz Hoffman and his crew, and the electronics was also designed by an engineer, Paul Miller. They had clean plumbing good shells and the best pumps at that time. We still have them all over the country after 10 years some are running and have not needed anything but seal kit replacements in the pumps.

When you follow standard engineering principles, like following the ANSI standards and following the UL standards, and going beyond to the NEC standards for houses and applying that to spas, you get products you can hook up and run for ten years with no major problems. I don't see much of that, and it is getting worse as each company tries to copy each other...The blind leading the blind.

My book How Spas are Made has been published 5 times now and we are no longer doing it in paper because of the Adobe pdf style. It was written in 1995 to 1997, long before our Haven Spas existed. In it are design principles that follow standard engineering principles that have been around form many decades.

When you see what is out there and compare it to standard engineering, you will see a lot of really silly stuff on hot tubs, most of which robs the consumers of longevity without repairs.

Most of the time you will hear the sales people screaming, you can't buy over the net because you will need warranty service. What if you build spas and test them so they don't need warranty service anywhere near as much as these other brands? That is a novel idea?

I just got off the phone with one of our Hercules owners. His spa is 9 years old. This is the first problem he has had with it. The spa is made "modular" so he can take the control box out and send it to us for repairs.

My warranty service manager is me. I spend about two hours a week on it, with now thousands of spas in the field. It is not magic, it is called following standard engineering principles.

Many people are like me and just want something good that will run and give good performance without unexpected problems.

Each year I come on forums and discuss spa design and get treated like crap, because of it. If every hot tub sales man that sells crappy spas hates me so much, then what is the real reason?

They came up with some bogus web site to try and discredit me, but what it does is to get people to really investigate our company, and they find that we have extremely low complaints with the BBB and we have customers across the country who will let you come to their home to help us sell you a spa. I never give the customers any money for this, but I do things for them, like give them special discounts on products or I will stop by and personally check out their spa and visit with them.

When I go traveling to deliver spas in the late fall and winter, I have to be careful to not announce it, because I don't' like turning down all the invitations for dinner or to stay over at their homes.

Tell me any other spa company with that type of loyalty? All it is is to place you customers needs before your own. If you sell crap to your customers, you are not doing that.

One time I was at dinner with the president of a rather big spa factory. I was discussing having him build some custom spas for me. One of his questions to me was: "Why can't we build a hot tub that you plug in and it runs for 10 years like a refrigerator?"

I told him; "It is called proper engineering."

Did you know that three independent tests have been performed comparing full foam with a thermally sealed spa? In all cases the thermally closed "won". These tests were paid for by thermally designed spa companies.

You will never see a test paid for by any full foam spa company that would do a side by side. Even if it has happened the full foam company would destroy the test results and never mention it again.

For years I have presented the SPA_CHALLENGE It was even published and sent to all the spa companies as an open invitation.

Nobody has responded.

When I retire I intend to set this in motion. I will buy spas and test them side by side on 24 hour web cames with gauges and electric meters. After a while the spa industry will change, because the world will not buy their crap any more.

[tumbleweed]

Altazi,

Some research into Jims past dealings with customers, and going back and reading some of his rantings and attacks in this forum will tell you why many here will not even address his responses. It just encourages him. I would suggest doing your own research. Finding the five brands you like the best. And base your decision on dealer support.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Altazi,

Some research into Jims past dealings with customers, and going back and reading some of his rantings and attacks in this forum will tell you why many here will not even address his responses. It just encourages him. I would suggest doing your own research. Finding the five brands you like the best. And base your decision on dealer support.

Are we "eating sour grapes" again? Makes your face look like this.

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/general.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/as.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Chas]

"Altazi here. I know some of Jim's points are contentious, as there are many here in favor of full-foamed spa construction, but by and large, his advice posted above seemed reasonable to me. Rather then tell the readers to ignore everything he said, could you please address each of his items separately? This is a good opportunity to educate many of us new to the world of spas."

Fair enough. First, I have been in business selling spas since 1986, HotSpring since 1987. I worked for other people selling HS prior to starting my own business. I have, over the years, sold many other brands alongside of HotSpring. I fully admit that I think HotSpring is a fine tub. I also realize that there are other brands which may very well be the right choice for you. Here we go:

Shopping list for your hot tub search.

1/ Look for hot tubs that are easier to repair. How do you know a spa is easy to repair? Look in the motor compartment. Of course, if it takes you an extra half-hour just to remove the side panels from all the sides of the tub... I say, stick with a name-brand tub that has a good reputation, a long history and a good warranty. As the hot tub ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. Far and away, Full Foam tubs leak less. The reasons are obvious: the plumbing is supported well. That keeps it from sagging and hanging off the back of the jets, and it also holds it in place when pumps come on and go off. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. This would make setting a spa into an alcove or against a wall impossible. You would have to move the spa just to take care of what otherwise might be a very simple repair. This is a feature Jim likes to promote because his tubs do it. Few, if any other makers do so, they want you to be able to open one access door and have all equipment there.

Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of spas out there are FF, so they will most likely have an insulated, vented motor compartment. Why insulated AND vented? Insulated to keep the equipment warm when its not running, and vented so that the excess heat goes away from the motors to make them last longer. HS, and a few others now, tap that hot air from shrouds installed on the motors and inject it into the jets. This is a great way to recycle heat you have already paid to produce. Heat that otherwise would be wasted. A side benefit of the pump shroud is that it quiets the noise of the motors.

All of the side panels should be removable, HotSpring, Tiger River and Caldera have this feature, but you do not have any equipment behind those other side panels. And the hot tub should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!).This is a common statement by this poster, but it makes no sense. Obviously you would not fill the area under the hood of a car with foam. You won't fill the interior with 102 degree water, either. But in reality, it IS harder to fix a leak in a full foamed spa. Just not a lot harder: a trained technician will have no trouble finding and fixing a leak in either type of spa. As I said, the most commonly sold spa today is FF, and they tend to leak less. I don't think you should choose a spa based on the insulation type, assuming that both tubs in question were designed by real engineers.

The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the hot tub. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple concessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. I have already addressed this: the worst FF spa in the world supports the plumbing very well. There are some TP spas out there which encapsulate the plumbing well, but if you really look at those designs, you realize that they have just about as much foam as a FF spa! They just have an air gap between two think layers of foam. Now, not all spas 'stuff the cabinet with foam." HS is a good example of an engineered system. They put 30# foam on the back of the shell. This is done by computer-controlled robotic arms so it can be done just right every time. Then the plumbing is installed. Since HS is registered through Lloyds as an ISO9001 certified company, there are many quality checks between the steps I am citing here. But once the plumbing is in place, a layer of 10# density foam is used to encapsulate the plumbing. This not only makes the plumbing stronger, but it forms support beams all around the spa shell. Then the cavities are filled. Those cavities used to be filled with 2# foam, as most other makers do it. But they found that as the foam expands, it was trapping air voids. Those air voids not only can amplify noise, but if large enough, they will tend to have convection currents within which can actually accelerate heat loss. So, they changed to a mixture of 1 and 2 pound density: as the 2 pound foam expands, they squirt in some 1 pound. The 1 pound jumps to 'life' and any voids which previously would have been air are now filled with all foam. Then the bottom of the spa is capped with a float of 60 pound foam. This foam is very strong: I handle these tubs with forklifts and have yet to get through this layer - and it keep everything inside, inside, and everything outside, out.

If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane hot tub, the heat is dissipated and the equipment is easy to access. This is counter intuitive, and doesn't bear up under close scrutiny. If you put large motors in an insulated box, they will run hotter. If you read Jim's other stuff you will see that his cabinet is set to stay at around 120 degrees. Less than that and his whole “hot air blanket which acts as a high R value insulator” idea falls apart. Motors will last longer if they have cool air being draw through them. Tap the exhaust air, direct it into the jets, and you have another way to recycle your pump heat that extends the life of the equipment.

If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam, in a fully foamed hot tub, it is very expensive to fix. It may be, or it may not be. But as I have said before, FF spas tend to have fewer problems with leaks. If you have a leak in a TP spa it may be very expensive to fix – or it may not be. A good warranty and a large company to back it up is the best solution to this puzzle.

How do you find it? By being a skilled technician. There are tricks to this just as there are in any trade. But as a consumer, you will only have to know how to use the telephone: most major name tubs are well covered by warranty for five or more years.

2/ Look for hot tubs with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. This is good, if you want a generic spa. Better makers have gotten away from pulling parts off a shelf because they can often get more life, better service, and better performance by designing certain components to their own specs. These companies, of course, need to have real engineers on staff to pull this off. And the fact of the matter is that if you want to support a spa for twenty years, you had better have a big company with their finger on the pulse of their suppliers or you may end up with an orphan, even IF they use generic parts. There are just as many small parts makers who leave the business as there are small tub makers. Stick with a name brand. Will you pay more for replacement parts? You might, or you might pay less. I have seen it work both ways. But the tubs on my showroom and the tubs at the local home center don't have much in common as far as jets - and they sure don't have much in common as far as PERFORMANCE goes either.

All of the manufactures of hot tubs use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. That is obvious anti HS bias, since HS is the largest maker of tubs on the market. But also not true. What company would tell their maker to make the parts to a lesser level of performance? They don't have to, they will already be getting a huge discount since they are going to buy tens of thousands more than a small mom and pop operation. All the big boys have trim rings and valve handles made to match their design, and you can often buy the generic version. But in the case of the tubs I have handled over the years, I find such parts to be almost the exact same price - with one important difference: I have to go find them and then get them. But if I want a HS part, which will match the others in the tub, for the same price or better, all I have to do is use the very advanced computerized parts catalog (DeTechtive) to look up the part number for any HS spa for the past twenty years, and order it. It will get to me in days, and it will work every time.

There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. Please verify this one. You can't. There is OFTEN a difference in quality. This is typical 'slam the competition' verbiage: most of the major players back every component on their tubs with a good warranty. They would not stay a leader in this or any other industry if they had to keep replacing parts.

One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay through the nose" for it. I think he is talking about Jacuzzi here: they did have a special foot on the JWB pumps. Those pumps were also glued shut so you had to replace the whole unit if the seal went out, and if the seal DID go, it frequently took out the motor too. If you wanted to, you could replace those pumps with generic parts. It took a little more time, which translates into more labor costs, but I have done it for many folks since I used to sell Jacuzzi as well. BUT - the generic pumps did not put out anywhere NEAR the flow of the JWB pumps, so the spa would never again perform the way it did when new. If people didn't care about that, and only cared about the cost of the repair, this was a way to keep the cost down. But, the JWB pumps moved far more water than any other pump in the industry: the jets did too. Too bad they don't have those items anymore: they now have Sundance - type pumps and motors. Good, but not as good as the older style.

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here. Junk science. Take the two tubs, put them side-by-side, and turn off the power. The FF spa has an obvious advantage. The pipes are insulated, the motor compartment is insulated, the whole thing is insulated. Turn on the pumps, and the TP spa has a built-in hot air blanket which gives it the advantage. At the cost of shorter component life due to the higher temps, the need to run those pumps much longer per day to keep the hot air hot, run-away temperatures in warm weather, fluctuating temperatures in cooler weather. And keep in mind that this 'fully sealed' cabinet is just a bunch of lumber: it may stay well sealed, but chances are it will not as it ages. Once the seal is gone, you will have every breeze and draft blowing your precious hot air blanket away.

The oft-quoted fact that air is easier to heat is true. Unfortunately, air also give UP it's heat faster than water. So the hot air in the cabinet sounds good, if you can keep it in place. Coleman is generally credited with the design of the Thermal Pane insulation method. Go look at a Coleman spa now: they use FF. Look at the Arctic spa: they have a large air chamber, BUT, they have huge layers of insulation on the interior of the cabinet, the floor and under the rim of the spa shell. They may call it TP, and the pumps may be trapped in the hot air, but it's really just a well designed FF spa with some air chambers or voids.

I’ll write more when I get the time. But I hope I have given some food for thought: most folks would be better served by a name-brand spa with real, papered engineers behind it. You may have to pay a bit more, - not always, but you may - but isn't it interesting that though some of these name-brands have tend to cost a bit more, they have also always been far more popular? There’s a reason that is true.

[Altazi]

Thank you, Chas, for taking the time and putting in the effort to address each of the points. Responses like this, where there is a thoughtful discussion of contrasting ideas, are very helpful to me - and I am sure others will appreciate this as well.

I look forward to visiting some of the other spa dealers on my short list. I am coming to the conclusion that the warranty, comfort, & local dealer support overshadow these other differences - as long as I stick with a major player who will be around in the long run. Of course, being a "nuts and bolts" kind of guy, I still want to know what's going on under the hood. . .

Regards,

Altazi

[tumbleweed]

Very well put Chas. As a 15 yr service technician, I agree with all your statements. My own "top Five" would include Hot Springs, D1, Marque, Cal Spas, and Jacuzzi Premium. There are many more well built spas by major manufactures out there,

Keep up the research Altazi, a well informed customer will make the right choice I am sure.

[wesj53]

I AM NOT A DEALER; THEREFORE I HAVE NO BIASES. My wife and I have been looking for a spa for about a month. I am a careful buyer, especially when I am spending thousands for a unit; therefore I have done a lot of research for our 6+ seating tub. Here are my opinions. I would have preferred a fully insulated unit vs a fully foamed for the express reason of simplicity and lower cost to repair a leak it if develops. Unfortunately, some of the insulated companies have terrible BBB ratings; specifically Hudro Spa and Thermospas. I would stay away from both. That leaves Arctic and Master which are both good firms as far as I have been able to research. Master though doesn't give you a lot of jets for the money which is what we are looking for. After all of my research, we are down to the Artesian (Platinum series) which is a very unique product with individual controls for each user due to a 5 pump system (costly though at about $10k for the Piper Glen or Dove Canyon). They also have a center foot jet unit with volcano which is a lot of fun for kids. We also recommend you look at the Barefoot model 88MR which has a very unique lounger that runs in the direction of the middle of the tub and a center foot and volcano unit (our dealer in Chicago has quoted about $7k) or the Arctics which we will be wet testing this weekend. I have heard good things about them and since they are mfg in Canada, they are good for cold weather climates like our! But figure on spending at least $7k for a quality product. We ruled out the "brand name" companies since in our opinion they charged a lot of $$ for less jets and features. That's my take. Good luck.

TO ALTAZI -

I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM CAL SPAS! My wife and I are also purchasing a tub soon and I have done a lot of research on any and all models and mfgs I can find here in Chicago. I was very interested in one of the Cal Spas but after looking them up on the BBB site, they and a bunch of their dealers in CA have numerous unresolved complaintes registered against them WHY DON'T ALL PROSPECTIVE BUYERS USE BBB; THE SERVICE IS FREE AND CAN HELP DETERMINING THE RELIABILITY AND RESPONSIVENESS OF A COMPANY! Our 2 dealers here in Chicago don't aggressively sell them since the company is a trainwreck in terms of handling compaints. Plus, they are constantly changing their lines and components which in many cases are proprietory to Cal Spas. That means if they discontinue a part, chances are you can't find it anywhere else. If they still have a part, they charge a lot for it. One dealer here said replacement jets are on INDEFINITE back order. Meaning, forget about getting them. Get a spa from a company with generic parts which can be purchased on the open market.

[thestallion]

I feel and it is of course just my opinion but if you look at a spa in total Marquis will match up to any spa you will find. Safety (UL approved in total), Therapy, warranty which is no fault across the board and is transferable and covers the cabinet in ways that no one in the industry matches, is energy efficient, comfort and cost of ownership. There are several good makers out there and you have to find the one thats best for you. The reason why so many of the same names gets mentioned time and time again is they have simply proven themselves over the years to build a good product but they also take care of people after the sale.

[tumbleweed]

More jets does not equal better therapy. More HP does not equal better therapy. Hot soothing water that moves, a good warranty, and dealer support is very relaxing.