What Is The Better Spa?

[wesj53]

I believe the D was supposed to be an H........ Federal standards? There is no such thing. Please go read my previous post in another thread regarding ASTM standards. As I stated there, these "standards" are in no way requirements (as per ASTM's own words). Additionally, AS PER ASTM's OWN STATEMENT, there may be OTHER way of doing things that may be as safe, OR SAFER than their own standards.

wesj53, you say not to listen to the dealers here but to tell you the truth, it sounds like YOU are either a dealer, or haven fallen hook line and sinker for something you've heard from another dealer somewhere else. Or perhaps your information comes from a web site written by the marketing department of a large spa company? My friend, you say you're not biased? Well, EVERYONE is biased, based on what they CHOOSE to believe.............. customer walked in, back to finish later.... had to get this posted her

Gee, you guys are cynical. TO REPEAT, I AM NOT A DEALER. The reason I told the other guy not to listen to much of what he reads on this site (IMO) comes from dealers and not consumers like me who are just trying to learn facts about tubs without biases affecting their opinions. I have NO bias when it comes to this subject. I went into shopping for a spa with no knowledge but have spent a few weeks educating myself with as much info as I could collect from a variety of sources and opinions. In fact, after I buy a tub I'm probably going to disconnect from this site since my life doesn't revolve around this subject (I'm an insurance agent in Downers Grove, IL). I was only making an observation that HS is the only mfg I know of that doesn't have these suction outlets. I find it curious they are the only ones who don't. I also believe it is ANSI standards to have them. Is this not correct? I also understand these are guidelines, not standards. Is this not correct? The only other objection I have against buying Hot Springs is that I think there are better values in the marketplace. My gosh, you Hot Springs dealers are as bad as Jim the Jim in your emotionalism. Just because I am not thrilled about your product, you insinuate that I am a dealer and that I've swallowed someone else's sales pitch. Give a consumer like me a break. This site exists I thought to educate the consumer - not to belittle him. Of all the intercourse I have read here over the last week or so has come from Charles, who while a HS dealer himself, also seems to be a reasonable fellow.

Here's a question. The BBB is NOT a governmental agency but is a private not for profit company....... Who monitors them for accuracy??

My gosh Dr. Spa. You think the government is a reliable source for info? You must be smoking something illegal! I would rather put some faith in a highly regarded not-for-profit organization like the BBB than listening to mouthpieces of company reps. What's wrong with doing it? Consumers for years have relied on them and BBB gives a satisfactory rating for most companies. But thank God I used them because I was seriously considering buying a Hydro Spa until I ran a report on them. Guess what? They have an unsatisfactory record which explains why 2 dealers here in the Chicago area are dropping them.

[Dr. Spa]

"Gee, you guys are cynical."

Cynical? Yeah. I'm paranoid too. but, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm not being followed.

Do some research on the BBB.. there's some interesting stories out there............grrrrrrrrrrr, another personal document I can't find.

" TO REPEAT, I AM NOT A DEALER"

nor am I. I manufacture traditional wooden hot tubs and spa covers... among other things

"The reason I told the other guy not to listen to much of what he reads on this site (IMO) comes from dealers and not consumers"

I don't believe most consumers have much info in terms of comparing different spas in any real life experience. They may have briefly seen a brand other than what they own, but realistically the only knowledge they have is with regards to the one single spa they've owned for a short period of time. They're not doing service work on hundreds, no, thousands of spas of different brands, they haven't seen the changes, intimately, over the years, they don't spend the hours at trade shows talking the tech talk, that's fully understood, with factory reps.

"like me who are just trying to learn facts about tubs without biases affecting their opinions."

As I already said, everyone is biased based on what they choose to believe. You seem to believe the BBB is infallible.

"I went into shopping for a spa with no knowledge but have spent a few weeks educating myself with as much info as I could collect from a variety of sources and opinions."

A few weeks? Guess I've wasted the last 25 years of my lift .............. SHUTUP STEVE

"I was only making an observation that HS is the only mfg I know of that doesn't have these suction outlets. I find it curious they are the only ones who don't"

Hot Spring Spas also makes more spas than the next 3 companies combined. They TAKE CARE of their customers. You say their expensive? Care costs. If you really look at things you'll notice that the more "budget" a spa is, there tends to be more complaints.

"I also believe it is ANSI standards to have them. Is this not correct?"

This is absolutely NOT correct.

ANSI standards, by their own words, are not requirements and there may in fact be better and/or safer ways of doing things.

"The only other objection I have against buying Hot Springs is that I think there are better values in the marketplace."

Value, like the comfort of a spa, is a purely personal thing.

"My gosh, you Hot Springs dealers"

Not a dealer.

"My gosh Dr. Spa. You think the government is a reliable source for info? You must be smoking something illegal!"

Though it's been many years, and I never really did inhale, there may be some lasting after effects.

"I would rather put some faith in a highly regarded not-for-profit organization like the BBB"

Again, do research into the BBB. You may be surprised.

[wesj53]

"Gee, you guys are cynical."

You make some valid points Dr. Spa and I accept the critiques. This industry is not regulated and there are a lot of less than honest people as I think we all can agree. All I was trying to do was share my personal thoughts with another consumer without any sales slant or vested interest. Of course, you guys in the industry for years know more about this stuff than I do, but based on what I've read from some contributors, their company is the only game in town. Now that you declare yourself not to be a dealer, what are your thoughts about my final 3 companies, Artesian (their Platinum line), Arctic, and Barefoot (Hawkeye Mfg). I also today read about Vita which has some interesting designs that my wife and I both like. Any thoughts about these companies' products and service reliability?

Cynical? Yeah. I'm paranoid too. but, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm not being followed.

Do some research on the BBB.. there's some interesting stories out there............grrrrrrrrrrr, another personal document I can't find.

" TO REPEAT, I AM NOT A DEALER"

nor am I. I manufacture traditional wooden hot tubs and spa covers... among other things

"The reason I told the other guy not to listen to much of what he reads on this site (IMO) comes from dealers and not consumers"

I don't believe most consumers have much info in terms of comparing different spas in any real life experience. They may have briefly seen a brand other than what they own, but realistically the only knowledge they have is with regards to the one single spa they've owned for a short period of time. They're not doing service work on hundreds, no, thousands of spas of different brands, they haven't seen the changes, intimately, over the years, they don't spend the hours at trade shows talking the tech talk, that's fully understood, with factory reps.

"like me who are just trying to learn facts about tubs without biases affecting their opinions."

As I already said, everyone is biased based on what they choose to believe. You seem to believe the BBB is infallible.

"I went into shopping for a spa with no knowledge but have spent a few weeks educating myself with as much info as I could collect from a variety of sources and opinions."

A few weeks? Guess I've wasted the last 25 years of my lift .............. SHUTUP STEVE

"I was only making an observation that HS is the only mfg I know of that doesn't have these suction outlets. I find it curious they are the only ones who don't"

Hot Spring Spas also makes more spas than the next 3 companies combined. They TAKE CARE of their customers. You say their expensive? Care costs. If you really look at things you'll notice that the more "budget" a spa is, there tends to be more complaints.

"I also believe it is ANSI standards to have them. Is this not correct?"

This is absolutely NOT correct.

ANSI standards, by their own words, are not requirements and there may in fact be better and/or safer ways of doing things.

"The only other objection I have against buying Hot Springs is that I think there are better values in the marketplace."

Value, like the comfort of a spa, is a purely personal thing.

"My gosh, you Hot Springs dealers"

Not a dealer.

"My gosh Dr. Spa. You think the government is a reliable source for info? You must be smoking something illegal!"

Though it's been many years, and I never really did inhale, there may be some lasting after effects.

"I would rather put some faith in a highly regarded not-for-profit organization like the BBB"

Again, do research into the BBB. You may be surprised.

[Dr. Spa]

You make some valid points Dr. Spa and I accept the critiques. This industry is not regulated and there are a lot of less than honest people as I think we all can agree. All I was trying to do was share my personal thoughts with another consumer without any sales slant or vested interest. Of course, you guys in the industry for years know more about this stuff than I do, but based on what I've read from some contributors, their company is the only game in town. Now that you declare yourself not to be a dealer, what are your thoughts about my final 3 companies, Artesian (their Platinum line), Arctic, and Barefoot (Hawkeye Mfg). I also today read about Vita which has some interesting designs that my wife and I both like. Any thoughts about these companies' products and service reliability?

I think I got your quote out correctly.......... Most industries are not regulated, and every industry you'll find people "less than honest"...... Part of living in America I guess.......... or maybe just a small part of humanity...

Keep in mind, most of the dealers on these boards derive absolutely no income from their time here. None of them, well almost none sell online. They do this mostly for the enjoyment of helping others (makes up for the bad part of humanity eh?), and yes, even some entertainment value........... and it's a great way to convince employees your too busy to do some real work you REALLY don't want to do.

Unfortunately, I don't have any personal knowledge on the spas you're looking at. I'm not aware of any (excessive) problems or complaints towards any of them. My own personal general advise to anyone looking for a spa (and I spent my first 8 or 10 years in this business doing service) is find what fits your pocket book first. Find whats most comfortable second. Then find a dealer that been in business a long time selling the same brand of spa. If they continue to carry the same brand of spa year after year that tells me they're happy with that particular brand, it's given them minimal problems, the manufacturer had been there for them AND they have a good relationship with the manufacturer (this can go a lot further than one might think). The longer they've been in business, the more likely they treat their customers well. This isn't always true though, they gotta start somewhere.............. but you don't stay in business long screwing your customers. Though I knew a young sales woman once................ naaaaaaaaa, better not

[wesj53]

I think I got your quote out correctly.......... Most industries are not regulated, and every industry you'll find people "less than honest"...... Part of living in America I guess.......... or maybe just a small part of humanity...

Keep in mind, most of the dealers on these boards derive absolutely no income from their time here. None of them, well almost none sell online. They do this mostly for the enjoyment of helping others (makes up for the bad part of humanity eh?), and yes, even some entertainment value........... and it's a great way to convince employees your too busy to do some real work you REALLY don't want to do.

Unfortunately, I don't have any personal knowledge on the spas you're looking at. I'm not aware of any (excessive) problems or complaints towards any of them. My own personal general advise to anyone looking for a spa (and I spent my first 8 or 10 years in this business doing service) is find what fits your pocket book first. Find whats most comfortable second. Then find a dealer that been in business a long time selling the same brand of spa. If they continue to carry the same brand of spa year after year that tells me they're happy with that particular brand, it's given them minimal problems, the manufacturer had been there for them AND they have a good relationship with the manufacturer (this can go a lot further than one might think). The longer they've been in business, the more likely they treat their customers well. This isn't always true though, they gotta start somewhere.............. but you don't stay in business long screwing your customers. Though I knew a young sales woman once................ naaaaaaaaa, better not

Dr, you lead me to the water but won't let me drink? Shame on you! Please share that story!

I will take your advice thank you. My biggest fear is a leak in a fully foamed spa and then paying hundreds to find and fix it. What are your thoughts? Is this issue exaggerated by the fully insulated folks or do most spas leak at some point in time (especially after the warranty is expired)? As a service guy, you should know better than most. Initial costs less of a concern of mine; thus our looking at the Artesian Piper Glen ($10k). But it seems to be a wonderfully unique product with 5 pumps and indivdual controls for each user! And the controls are variable so each person can crank up or gear down the power and air to his or her liking. I just want a reliable product; not so concerned about the debate over fully foamed or not.

[wesj53]

Dr, you lead me to the water but won't let me drink. Finish the story! Thanks for that info and I will follow your advice. My biggest fear in buying a spa is the possible leaking in a fully foamed unit. I dread the thought of paying hundreds of dollars to locate and repair a leak. Therefore, I can see the advantages of a non-fully foamed product. But there are few reputable mfgs of them out in the market and those like Arctic don't have some of the features we want. Initial cost is not a major concern as I want quality which is why we're looking the Piper Glen (top of the line) product from Artesian (Las Vegas). They have had no complaints lodged against them in the last 3 years according to BBB and they seem to build a great product and their distribution here in Chicago is American Sales, who have evidently had them for quite a few years (along with Hot Springs). This particular model has 5 jets so each user can individually control his own seat with variable jet and air pressure. I have not found anything else like it in the market. So what are your thoughts about the leaking issue in fully foamed units? Exaggerated or something that is a just concern? Do all spas leak eventually with time. I'm afraid they all do, especially after the warranties run out. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Here's a question. The BBB is NOT a governmental agency but is a private not for profit company....... Who monitors them for accuracy??

I have been a member of the BBB for many years, and they are more than accurate. Even when a customer really has no valid complaint it still gets registered. All they have to do is misunderstand something and register a complaint and it goes on the record. To me that is not fair to the merchant, but it keeps you on your toes, because any BBB report of a complaint is not good for sales.

I find them to be much more real than any other form of consumer information. They may not be perfect, but it is the only organization I support. I am certainly not going to support any organization that is bought by Hot Spring.

[Roger]

My biggest fear in buying a spa is the possible leaking in a fully foamed unit. I dread the thought of paying hundreds of dollars to locate and repair a leak.

99 percent of the leaks I repair are in the equipment area. Neither insulation method makes this repair more difficult. I have repaired hundreds of tubs in 2006 and I only need 3 fingers to count the number of repairs that were in foam. All three were easy to find and fix. Some repairs in foam do take longer and are more difficult but there are less leaks I think on a FF style tub. I just don't think leaks in the foam, while a good marketing tool for non FF spa dealers, is really something that should bear into your purchase decision.