Filtration -- Marquis V. Hot Springs

[thestallion]

Chas you bring up an interesting point. About Hot Springs and only one other maker to offer the no by pass. It is a fair question to ask that if it was dramatically better than most other spas and gave Hot Springs such a huge edge other makers would do something similar, I think what it really points to is that other makers feel the trade offs do not offer enough value in their opinion to make the change.

That is a huge assumption. I think it would be just as fair to assume that they don't have the engineering skill to make it work well, or that they have to hang huge pumps to get decent jet action, or that they want to be different, or that they don't have the cash flow needed to get the better prices on some of the hardware needed to make it work just right, or that they have always done it that way and don't want to change because it might make them look like they agree with a competitor who is eating their lunch, or that any of a dozen other reasons could and most likely are true.

I would have to assume that those other manufacturers are happy with the choices they have made in this regard - they must be or they would change. But since the largest number of tubs sold on the planet are made by HotSpring, I would say that there are millions of other people who made the choice for this filtration system. So it is a simple fact: in terms of simple numbers of spas, 'Most spas' are no-bypass systems.

As far as simply changing to a no bypass system, it would take engineering expertise which most small spa makers simply don't have. You can't just move the suction over to a filter, you have to have the entire system designed to get the optimum water flow from filter to jets. HotSpring has done that for over thirty years now.

Is it dramatically better? I don't think so. Is it better? I do think so.

Chas

please with all respect do you really think and believe that Hot Springs is the only company with engineers and a R&D department ? That others have not looked at it and if they felt it was a system that was so much better that they would like to incorporate it but lack the ability to do so.

Hot Springs is owned by Masco one of larger corporations in the country and far and away the biggest in the spa industry. And that certainly affords them things other company's may not have but as most everything in the world they come at a cost, that getting into here on a board like this would not offer any useful dialog. I appreciate yours and Terms postings here and respect Hot Springs as a maker. I have heard it said by Hot Springs dealers that they certainly have their fair share of problems but that they charge enough for them and will stand behind them to take care of them and I think thats what makes them a stand up company in the spa industry, which there are only a small number of company's who seem to share this value.

[East TX Spa]

I have heard it said by Hot Springs dealers that they certainly have their fair share of problems but that they charge enough for them and will stand behind them to take care of them...

Ha Ha!

And I have heard a Marquis dealer say to me "So, you sell HotSpring huh? That's one of the companies I have to bash when I'm trying to sell someone a spa."

But I think Marquis makes a fine spa and I think it's great that they don't have pillows.

Terminator

[thestallion]

I have heard it said by Hot Springs dealers that they certainly have their fair share of problems but that they charge enough for them and will stand behind them to take care of them...

Ha Ha!

And I have heard a Marquis dealer say to me "So, you sell HotSpring huh? That's one of the companies I have to bash when I'm trying to sell someone a spa."

But I think Marquis makes a fine spa and I think it's great that they don't have pillows.

Terminator

lol...very funny....do you do a lot of bashing....I don't if a person comes to me and asks about a Hot Springs I always say one of the better spa company's around....that they are a good choice if they have what you are looking for....now there are other company's who if I am asked about I could not say the same things about....

[East TX Spa]

....do you do a lot of bashing....I don't if a person comes to me and asks about a Hot Springs I always say one of the better spa company's around....that they are a good choice if they have what you are looking for

No sir! I don't as there is no need. I will give my opinion when someone asks about a brand but I would much rather talk about my spas.

No one has ever asked me my opinion about Marquis as the dealer filed bankruptcy 7 years ago and we haven't seen hide nor hair of them since.

I do think they make a fine spa, though, as do Sundance/Jacuzzi, Dimension 1, and Caldera.

Terminator

[thestallion]

....do you do a lot of bashing....I don't if a person comes to me and asks about a Hot Springs I always say one of the better spa company's around....that they are a good choice if they have what you are looking for

No sir! I don't as there is no need. I will give my opinion when someone asks about a brand but I would much rather talk about my spas.

No one has ever asked me my opinion about Marquis as the dealer filed bankruptcy 7 years ago and we haven't seen hide nor hair of them since.

I do think they make a fine spa, though, as do Sundance/Jacuzzi, Dimension 1, and Caldera.

Terminator

I agree no reason to talk about another's product unless asked and prodded.

[JohnInSJ]

The average spa owner unlike yourself is not found on this board.

...

I am simply saying people hear 5 and 24 and that's what they think is always working.

Your assumption is that, and as people have gently tried to point out, your assumption is wrong.

My point had nothing to do with being on this or any other board (although in the modern era, purchasing a $10K or more item without checking with the direct experiences of others also qualifies as 'buyer not doing their job' to me.)

[thestallion]

The average spa owner unlike yourself is not found on this board.

...

I am simply saying people hear 5 and 24 and that's what they think is always working.

Your assumption is that, and as people have gently tried to point out, your assumption is wrong.

My point had nothing to do with being on this or any other board (although in the modern era, purchasing a $10K or more item without checking with the direct experiences of others also qualifies as 'buyer not doing their job' to me.)

Sorry John, but my assumption is not wrong. My opinion is based on my experience dealing with people who come into our store everyday. Now its not everyday that people come in with this issue that would be misleading to say that. I might be wrong in this case but I would wager that the original poster in this thread may have been unclear on how the filters work. Again as I pointed out before and it has be echoed here by other dealers in different threads, the average spa owner is not found on a board like this. People who spend time here as owners have much more of you might say a passion for spas and are far more knowledgeable about spas and spa makers and water care. The funny thing is this was not a knock on Hot Springs in anyway go back and read what I said that I still stand behind it based on my experience that your average owner does realize that only one filter is working 24/7, that's all I was pointing out nothing more.

Here you go John,

My excat quote on what I siad, I think you have really look hard to see it as knocking Hot Springs in anyway

"the circ pump only use one filter that depending on your spa is I believe 30 to 70 sq ft and this is what you are doing the majority of your filtering with in fact unless the jets are turned on this is what all the filtering is done with, it works and works well but it is "a bit" misleading in that many people think the spa is using all of the filters at once when it is filtering and it is not true but again Hot Springs will do a great job of keeping your water clean."

[Chas]

Here you go John,

My excat quote on what I siad, I think you have really look hard to see it as knocking Hot Springs in anyway

"the circ pump only use one filter that depending on your spa is I believe 30 to 70 sq ft and this is what you are doing the majority of your filtering with in fact unless the jets are turned on this is what all the filtering is done with, it works and works well but it is "a bit" misleading in that many people think the spa is using all of the filters at once when it is filtering and it is not true but again Hot Springs will do a great job of keeping your water clean."

OK - so several folks have tried to point out that you have come to an incorrect assumption, but you still hold firm to your view. That's fine. But you really need to do a bit of study on the English language if you want us to buy your statement above. I cut and pasted the following from Merriam-Webster Dictionary.com:

mislead

One entry found.

mislead

Main Entry:mis·lead Pronunciation: mis-ˈlēd Function:verb Inflected Form(s):mis·led -ˈled; mis·lead·ingDate:before 12th century transitive verb : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit intransitive verb : to lead astray : give a wrong impression synonyms see deceive — mis·lead·er noun — mis·lead·ing·ly -ˈlē-diŋ-lē adverb

I would bet dollars to donuts that you would be equally offended if I said you were trying to be "a bit misleading."

[thestallion]

Chas,

That is very generous of you to help me with that and also very convenient of you to alter my meaning by removing of the word "bit" that I used, just in case you did not know what the word a 'bit" means I also have a dictionary meaning for you as I want to return the favor.

a bit, rather or somewhat; a little: a bit sleepy. or Also called bit part. a very small role

and just so I am not in your debt as you were kind enough to help me with the meaning of a word even as slanted as you twisted it. I thought I would help you with a math lesson.

You said:

"I would have to assume that those other manufacturers are happy with the choices they have made in this regard - they must be or they would change. But since the largest number of tubs sold on the planet are made by HotSpring, I would say that there are millions of other people who made the choice for this filtration system. So it is a simple fact: in terms of simple numbers of spas, 'Most spas' are no-bypass systems. "

However Hot Springs on there web site says:

Watkins Manufactures 600,000th Spa

VISTA, CA Watkins Manufacturing Corporation, maker of Hot Spring®, Tiger River®, Hot Spot®, and Solana® spas, recently manufactured its 600,000th spa made since the company's inception in 1977.

Chas,

600,000 is much less the "millions" that you stated. I do appreciate your professionalism and I know being the gentleman you are you can understand why over stating something as this would offend me as well as me "buying" your explanation.

[Chas]

We're wasting time and off topic - but that number is out of date. That's not your fault - please tell me were it was and I'll have the web folks update the number. Watkins has now sold over 750,000 tubs as of a couple of years ago, and I think we are well on the way to 800K. That would be the number of tubs, not people. However, I will allow that I may be wrong - so let's go ahead and go with your number.

I figure there are fewer tubs owned and enjoyed by only one person than by two or more - and our demographics certainly will back that up - and before you split this hair all the way down the middle, I am not talking about how many are in the tub at a time, I am talking about the fact that the buying choice is usually shared by two people - then yes, millions of people can be said to have made the choice for HotSpring tubs.'

Also, please note that I did not change anything you said, nor am I trying to twist it. You have quoted yourself saying it - you think that we are "a bit misleading."

I don't. Other people have posted that they don't. You are entitled to an opinion, but the English language is pretty clear - if you are saying we are misleading, then you are saying we are misleading.

[JohnInSJ]

Sorry John, but my assumption is not wrong. My opinion is based on my experience dealing with people who come into our store everyday.

There's one. That your sample size is relevant. There are other assumptions you make, such as being on this board indicates that a person is more educated regarding Spas.

The point is simple. Watkins clearly states how their filter system works. If you don't understand it, as a consumer, it's not because they mislead you, even slightly.

Its your job as a consumer to learn how to filter out the sales garbage you are fed at the spa store (if you are, you aren't always fed sales garbage - and walking into a spa store after you spend 30 minutes doing research on the internet will help shut down the FUD sales droids for sure.) Then and only then can you make an informed purchase.

In the end, as they say, no one should give a rat's behind how the system works. Assuming it works as designed, the USER/OWNER just needs to know how to correctly, safely and most easily use the spa hardware and chemical regiment to maintain the best water quality possible.

So, to the ORIGINAL QUESTION:

Having trouble falling asleep and just noticed something.

Hot Springs Tri-X filters have 325 sq. ft. of filtration area.

I know Marquis (and others -- Caldera's larger spas come to mind) only have 100 sq. ft.

Any noticeable difference in filtration -- from those of you who might have sold both?

Setting aside the question - does the consumer understand the single filter used for circ - is there any difference? thestallion, what spas do you sell, how big are their filters, do they have circ pumps, etc, etc...

[thestallion]

Chas,

I guess we both made our point, but please you are a smart enough man who knows the English language well enough that the intent of what a person is saying is different when they are saying you are "misleading" vs. "it is a bit misleading"

John,

You say Watkins clearly states how they filter. Really ? Are you sure ? Its been alluded to here that they go out of there way to point this out even on thier web site. This is taken directly from there web site:

Continuous Filtration

In a Hot Spring spa, all the water is continuously being filtered. In fact, the spa's entire contents are completely filtered 10 to 15 times each day! It works like this: the dedicated SilentFlo 5000® pump constantly draws water from the spa, runs it through the spa filter and the heater (heating only when necessary), then back to the spa. It is so energy efficient, it costs less to operate than a 75 watt light bulb.

Because the SilentFlo 5000® pump is totally automatic, there's no need to program long cleaning and heating cycles like you do with other spas. Nor do you have the wear and tear, energy drain or noise of a large jet pump running during those cycles. Quietly, your Hot Spring spa is always hot, clean and ready to enjoy.

There is more but none of it mentions that only one of the filters is plumbed to the circ pump, if you like you can go here to read it. http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_...filtration.html

I am not sure what you do for living. Perhaps you sell Hot Springs spas, I really don't know. But I do sell spas and I know my product and I try to know most of the other products in market as well. I also know that the people as in spa owners/shoppers who spend time on spa forums are much more knowledgeable than those who do not. I hope that is something you can grasp, that when a person takes an interest in something and spends time researching and learning about it. In the end they usually have better understanding than those who have only sat in spa. I sell Marquis spas and others. Again I will say that my intent was not to slander the Hot Springs spa in any way. I can break down my post if you like sentence by sentence if I need to for you. In the end even a small child could see that I say Hot Springs will do a great job in keeping your water clean. I did not get into the differences of filtering as they simply start the kind of debate that we now have going and in the end turns into s shouting shoving match with no winners.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Continuous Filtration

It works like this: the dedicated SilentFlo 5000® pump constantly draws water from the spa, runs it through the spa filter and the heater (heating only when necessary), then back to the spa.

There is more but none of it mentions that only one of the filters is plumbed to the circ pump, if you like you can go here to read it.

What you posted from the website seems pretty clear to me. It doesn't use the word "single" but it certainly tells you that the circp pump draws the water through "the spa filter" and the term is certainly singular, not plural.

[thestallion]

Continuous Filtration

It works like this: the dedicated SilentFlo 5000® pump constantly draws water from the spa, runs it through the spa filter and the heater (heating only when necessary), then back to the spa.

There is more but none of it mentions that only one of the filters is plumbed to the circ pump, if you like you can go here to read it.

What you posted from the website seems pretty clear to me. It doesn't use the word "single" but it certainly tells you that the circp pump draws the water through "the spa filter" and the term is certainly singular, not plural.

That is fair enough. My point in posting this was that it has been said here that they go out of thier to make it very clear about the filtering and the website was one example quoted and it certainly does not get into the detail that we have been discussing. And just so there is no misunderstanding about my point of view on this. John, Chas, Term and anyone else who has a vested interest. People come into my store and are NOT clear about it and wonder why only one filter seems to get dirty and again for what I think at least the 6th time in this thread, there is nothing wrong in the filtering of Hot Springs they do a great job. I know you guys tout it as probably your single biggest strength. I again was simply saying that 325 sq of filtering is not what is being done 95% of the time.

[JohnInSJ]

You say Watkins clearly states how they filter. Really ? Are you sure ? Its been alluded to here that they go out of there way to point this out even on thier web site. This is taken directly from there web site:

Right there in the owners manual you can download from their site.

But hey I know you go by their marketing...

I don't sell spas, I asked which you sell, basically I asked you to answer the question for the spas you sell - I am interested in learning more.

[thestallion]

You say Watkins clearly states how they filter. Really ? Are you sure ? Its been alluded to here that they go out of there way to point this out even on thier web site. This is taken directly from there web site:

Right there in the owners manual you can download from their site.

But hey I know you go by their marketing...

I don't sell spas, I asked which you sell, basically I asked you to answer the question for the spas you sell - I am interested in learning more.

lol....now down loading the manual is vastly different than it being clearly pointed to.

[TinyBubbles]

I know absolutely nothing about hot springs filtration. They were on my list when we were spa shopping, but due to the hit the spa industry is taking here, many hot springs dealers have gone under. We made the trip to one of the remaining stores on a Sat. but it has one very overwhelmed man, all alone, working there. He was trying so hard to speak to everyone and help them, but it was impossible. We finally left. I have no doubt that they are one of the "top dogs" in the spa market. I have a co-worker and brother that own them and LOVE them. Any hoo, I never had their filtration explained to me by a dealer. I went to their website to read it, to see what I could learn. I understood the whole thing about the circulation pump running 24 hours a day. Maybe it's because I already own a spa, but mine operates the same way. Water goes through one filter when circ. pump is running, through another filter with jets on. The thing I didn't understand is how water in some spas bypasses the filters because of too much pump, not enough filter. Could one of the hot springs people explain this? Thanks.

[JohnInSJ]

You STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION...

Why?

[thestallion]

You STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION...

Why?

What exact question have I not answered.....I thought I did....what is it exactly that you want answered. Since your in an attack mode why don't you answer this....the web site that was alluded to does not break down the filtering in the manner in which it was alluded to have.....you learned that yourself and than try to pass off down loading an owners manuel as an excuse for it......So why do don't you answer how that is different than it was stated as" it clearly points out".....Since your spa is a Tiger River it does not filter in the same way, is that what you want answered that your spa has a by pass filtering system.....there you go answered for.....your spa filters with a by pass....

If you want to know how a Marquis filter here you go... it might a little more detailed than you you are used to seeing.... http://www.marquisspas.com/documents/2007/...tCleanflyer.pdf

[IL Parrothead]

I know absolutely nothing about hot springs filtration...... The thing I didn't understand is how water in some spas bypasses the filters because of too much pump, not enough filter. Could one of the hot springs people explain this? Thanks.

Tiny, I'm not a HS person, but how I understand bypass versus non-bypass is this: If you look in the footwell area of most tubs you see circular screened intakes or domes -- they have a plastic housing -- almost like a mesh. When the jets are turned on in those types of tubs, water is drawn through those intakes. The theory I've always heard is it allows the jets to have more power with less of a strain than the HS system where all the water gets pulled into the filter compartment before it goes to the jets. Hope that helps.

[IL Parrothead]

But all of this fighting was unexpected. I really wasn't talking about whether consumers believed all 325 sq. ft. of filters were being used by the circ pump. I was just asking for someone to support the argument how WHEN THE JETS ARE MOVING THE WATER other tubs can accomplish (assuming they can) similar clean filtration with 100 sq. ft. or so of filtration versus the HS 325 sq. ft.

[cplarsen]

Sure. Depends on the micron size of the filter.

If you get a 1 micron disposable filter, it'll beat five 20 micron Hot Springs filters all day long.

Of course, you could replace all five of the Hot Spring filters too…

Actually, I've found this whole thread sorta silly. If I thought I was so dirty that I need another 225 sq ft. of filter, I got bigger problems than my hot tub. Throw some chlorine in there for god's sake…

[cplarsen]

Btw, the way everybody else does filters, and I'm not talking hot tubs here (diesel fuel filters, for instance), is you step the filters down. Start at a large micron size to get the stuff that would quickly plug the smaller micron filter.

Wonder why they don't do that in hot tubs. Think if I had a Hot Springs, I'd just put one of those 1 micron filters in the last one in the series. If they're run in series, not parallel, that is.

[Roger]

I know absolutely nothing about hot springs filtration. They were on my list when we were spa shopping, but due to the hit the spa industry is taking here, many hot springs dealers have gone under. We made the trip to one of the remaining stores on a Sat. but it has one very overwhelmed man, all alone, working there. He was trying so hard to speak to everyone and help them, but it was impossible. We finally left. I have no doubt that they are one of the "top dogs" in the spa market. I have a co-worker and brother that own them and LOVE them. Any hoo, I never had their filtration explained to me by a dealer. I went to their website to read it, to see what I could learn. I understood the whole thing about the circulation pump running 24 hours a day. Maybe it's because I already own a spa, but mine operates the same way. Water goes through one filter when circ. pump is running, through another filter with jets on. The thing I didn't understand is how water in some spas bypasses the filters because of too much pump, not enough filter. Could one of the hot springs people explain this? Thanks.

If you pull your filter out and look down the stand pipe you will see a T at the bottom. In this T there is a spring loaded flapper that is closed in the low or filter speed (mode) forcing all water to be drawn through the filter. The spring has enough tension to stay closed during filtration. Once you hit the jet pump to High the suction created opens the flapper and allows water be drawn through those footwell screens to bypass the filter. In a Hot Spring there is no choice but for all water to go through a filter.

The bypass systems aren't all like this but very similar.

[thestallion]

Sure. Depends on the micron size of the filter.

If you get a 1 micron disposable filter, it'll beat five 20 micron Hot Springs filters all day long.

Of course, you could replace all five of the Hot Spring filters too…

Actually, I've found this whole thread sorta silly. If I thought I was so dirty that I need another 225 sq ft. of filter, I got bigger problems than my hot tub. Throw some chlorine in there for god's sake…

Silly...lol.....I agree....I had no idea....that based on my experience not everyone understands only one filter is working 24/7.....and that by pointing this out to try and help someone understand that 95% of the time it is less than 100sq ft thats cleaning your water and in terms of sq ft much more in line what most spas do....would entice such a spirited debate....but again Hot Springs does a great job of filtering...it never was my intent to imply anything less ... I think if you read my posts I pointed this out clearly....