kevinv18 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 As we were out spa shopping, we were told by a Dimension One dealer that while you are in the spa, the ozonator shuts off, because ozone can be harmful. However, I'm pretty sure that a HotSpring dealer told us that their spas put ozone out into the water 24/7, even when your in the spa, because when you are in the spa is when you need sanitary water the most. Is it true that ozone is harmful? Thanks for your help, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Most ozone systems are designed to shut off when a main pump is turned on. Improperly designed systems can be harmful. From what I was told its the other way around D1 runs nonstop since their system breaks down the ozone so it doesnt off gas into the tub & HS shuts off when you get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Most ozone systems are designed to shut off when a main pump is turned on. Improperly designed systems can be harmful. From what I was told its the other way around D1 runs nonstop since their system breaks down the ozone so it doesnt off gas into the tub & HS shuts off when you get in. I believe the HS system is on full time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingSpaGuy Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Hotsprings does not shut off when you get in, I have not been able to verify or deny that hotsprings does not break down all the ozone before entering the tub similar to d1, I know a very smart d1 salesperson and he claims hot springs do not break down all ozone and they jump the saftey switch to continue flow of ozone, but I have a hard time believing hot springs would do that. Ozone can be harmful so thats why it is turned off in everyother tub but d1 and hotsprings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinv18 Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Hotsprings does not shut off when you get in, I have not been able to verify or deny that hotsprings does not break down all the ozone before entering the tub similar to d1, I know a very smart d1 salesperson and he claims hot springs do not break down all ozone and they jump the saftey switch to continue flow of ozone, but I have a hard time believing hot springs would do that. Ozone can be harmful so thats why it is turned off in everyother tub but d1 and hotsprings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Hotsprings does not shut off when you get in, I have not been able to verify or deny that hotsprings does not break down all the ozone before entering the tub similar to d1, I know a very smart d1 salesperson and he claims hot springs do not break down all ozone and they jump the saftey switch to continue flow of ozone, but I have a hard time believing hot springs would do that. Ozone can be harmful so thats why it is turned off in everyother tub but d1 and hotsprings Now this is pure sales BS. Every major manufacturer utilizes a mixing chamber to help eliminate off gassing. The best way is to have a recapturing system but how complicated do you want these things to get. The truth is the benefit to ozone in a spa has not been documented yet. Ozone works in some very controlled water applications, but with the small amount of ozone introduced to a spa or even worse, a swimming pool, it has not been determined whether it does very much, if anything, at all. In the quest for no chlorine/bromine water care or no water care at all, many myths are told. I believe ozone does help...a little, but I have disconnected by ozonator in my spa and don't know if I'll use it again. I know how to keep my water safe and clean, even if my spa does get abused with teens from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInSJ Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 How exactly does anyone think the minute ozone that may be released into the air has any effect when the spa is outside? If you live in any industrialized part of the world, you've already got plenty of ozone available in your air, can the minuscule addition of a few ppm off the ozone system really have any measurable impact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 How exactly does anyone think the minute ozone that may be released into the air has any effect when the spa is outside? If you live in any industrialized part of the world, you've already got plenty of ozone available in your air, can the minuscule addition of a few ppm off the ozone system really have any measurable impact? I dunno...have you looked at the pillows or bottom of a cover and the effects ozone can have on them? I'm 110% with Tony on this one. I too have owned both and although I believe ozone can help, there's many myths out there about just how effective it can be (ie save up to 80% of your chlorine) that are just pure BS. I don't notice a difference with or without but then again, I was shown properly how to look after my water. Ozone can be a safety net to some degree and give you a day or 2 extra before your water goes south on you but chlorine (or bromine) is required for safe, sanitary water regardless of whether or not ozone is added. If anyone tells you how wonderful it is, ask for documentation that backs up their theory. There's a LOT of "opinions" on ozone but none of us have ever seen proven documentation that clearly shows just how effective ozone is in a hot tub application. As for it being harmful...sure it can be but the major manufacturers have eliminated the amount of off-gasing with the addition of mixing chambers and so on. Personally, I would never purchase a spa that ran ozone 24/7 due to the fact that it isn't required and it's overkill. Oh...and I don't like the smell either! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I dunno...have you looked at the pillows or bottom of a cover and the effects ozone can have on them? Steve I have seen the effects of ozone on pillows and the cover bottom. Therefore I never get in the spa and close the cover while I'm in it and stay in there all day. I also won't allow my kids to go under water and suck on the ozone outlet (I might allow my brother-in-law). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 How exactly does anyone think the minute ozone that may be released into the air has any effect when the spa is outside? If you live in any industrialized part of the world, you've already got plenty of ozone available in your air, can the minuscule addition of a few ppm off the ozone system really have any measurable impact? The amount of ozone that can be off-gassing in a spa "can" be significantly higher that what you might find as pollution in the atmosphere. Remember, ozone is heavier than air so even outside it can tend to linger a bit. Ozone is a very powerful oxidizer and with some sensitive people it can effect the sensitive air ways. I've talked to a small number of people that had breathing problems when they used their spa, and when the unplugged their ozonator the problems went away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 In addition to the problems with ozone that were mentioned, the part about needing less chlorine is interesting (and probably wrong) because ozone itself destroys chlorine so that in some systems you end up needing more chlorine with the ozonator running. See this link for the chemistry behind ozone being a stronger oxidizer than chlorine and therefore oxidizing it to chlorate (with the ozone becoming oxygen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meriflower Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 In addition to the problems with ozone that were mentioned, the part about needing less chlorine is interesting (and probably wrong) because ozone itself destroys chlorine so that in some systems you end up needing more chlorine with the ozonator running. See this link for the chemistry behind ozone being a stronger oxidizer than chlorine and therefore oxidizing it to chlorate (with the ozone becoming oxygen). How about using ozone with 100 % bromine such as Brilliance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinv18 Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Doesn't ozone, 03, transform in 02, like 20 seconds after its released? One of the dealers I visited said something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInSJ Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I still don't see it. Sure if you are in an enclosed space, maybe... but outside, even with a very light breeze or just the convection due to temp differential, you'd have to be pretty unlucky to get any kind of measurable buildup. Since ozone is measurable, someone just needs to get the rig set up... sounds like a good Mythbusters segment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Ozone would oxidize bromide to bromate (see this Wikipedia link for the reaction). Notice that it isn't bromine (hypobromous acid) that gets oxidized, but rather bromide. Bromide is what bromine gets reduced to when it disinfects or oxidizes. So IF there is an additional oxidizer (shock) in the water such as chlorine or a non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate), then the bromide should get restored to bromine and there should be very little bromide in the water. So I suspect that though some bromate is formed by the ozonator, that it doesn't happen as much so bromine usage is probably not seen as dropping in bromine spas with an ozonator, especially if they are co-maintained with chlorine (some floating feeder bromine products introduce both bromine and chlorine into the spa simultaneously) or shocked regularly. On the other hand, bromates are somewhat more of a health issue than chromates, but unless you are drinking the spa water this may not be a big issue. As for the hazards of ozone itself, I think that in spas with decent ventilation there isn't that much of an issue and the dealer is correct that most of the ozone will react very, very quickly in the water -- ozone is not very stable which is why it is so reactive. If there was ozone in the air, you'd smell it. It's not odorless and if you've ever smelled electrical sparks, then you've smelled ozone. The good news with ozone is that it will kill even hard-to-kill bugs such as the bacteria that causes hot tub itch. The bad news is that it does not leave a residual for disinfection in the main body of pool water so you still need to use something there and unfortunately no matter what you use ozone will react with it, at least a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 In addition to the problems with ozone that were mentioned, the part about needing less chlorine is interesting (and probably wrong) because ozone itself destroys chlorine so that in some systems you end up needing more chlorine with the ozonator running. See this link for the chemistry behind ozone being a stronger oxidizer than chlorine and therefore oxidizing it to chlorate (with the ozone becoming oxygen). That's intertesting. The "sales pitch" for ozone is that it reduces chlorine consumption and that's what I've heard (most likely ALL of us) for years. I think I even have told that to many customers and people on these forums. I just never gave a value as I've never seen documentation to show its true value in that regard. So if it's true that ozone "may" increase chlorine consumption (and I'm not completely sold on that concept yet), why would the addition of ozone be valueable in any way to the end user? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I have seen the effects of ozone on pillows and the cover bottom. Therefore I never get in the spa and close the cover while I'm in it and stay in there all day. I also won't allow my kids to go under water and suck on the ozone outlet (I might allow my brother-in-law). Ahhh go suck on an ozone outlet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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