The Spa Specialist's "research"

[D.P. Roberts]

The existence of the so-called "Tong and Rogers" report has been debated quite a bit lately. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. Since the report allegedly came from researchers at the Arizona U. and the University of Colorado, I decided to e-mail the librarians at the U. of C. to see if they could help track it down. Here is the response I received:

"We were not able to find this article from the information given. We tried the Engineering Village database, Web of Science, WorldCat, and Google Scholar. There are several articles written by two authors named Tong and Rogers in 1996 but not in the field of insulation.

We found the web site

http://www.xxxx.com/FullFoamVSThermallySealed.html

using Google and it seems to fit your request. But more information is needed to find the actual article. We would be happy to look further if you could find a more complete citation.

Engineering Library Reference

303-492-5396

engref@colorado.edu"

So, after their extensive research, the only mention they could find anywhere was on the H***n spa site. This is obviously not conclusive - it's hard to prove the non-existence of something - but it's pretty close.

[Trigger]

DP, if somone puts forth a reference that can't be identified, the onus is on the researcher to prove it exists.

Otherwise, I could site the 2007 report by Dr's Chew & Bacca that state Jim's tubs are "peices of horse excrament".

Students have been expelled for antics like Jims. He has aboslutley no credibibilty here, and folks let him stroll in and basically relieve himself all over the place here. It's a joke.

Jim has accused folks of not wanting to look at facts.

Jim, I'll take a copy of Tong and Rogers so we can talk about it. Where is it?

I'll discuss your products eneregy consumption. Can you show me the indepenent data?

I'll discuss customer satsifcation and resale values of your products. Can you show me the independent data?

I have combed through your site and read all your BS rants, where's your data?

If you claim something is a fact (as you are in the habit of doing,) please provide verifiable independent data to back those "facts" up.)

Are your tubs ETL listed?

This is a quote from Jim's craptacular site:

Do you see that BBB logo on our site? Since I believe in integrity and ethics in all aspects of my life, the BBB is the only organization I belong to, except for the new Hot Tub and Spa Consumer Institute. Since I believe in truth in advertising, the only "weapon" I have against these unethical spa companies is the truth and education for consumers. I don't believe in fancy logos and putting lies on anything that I have any part in.

There is NO Hot Tub and Spa Consumer Institue. Right away Jim starts lying. It's compulsive. How can ANYONE do business with this LIAR?

Truth in advertsing? I've read a few references to Tong and Rogers. Seems if you can't back up the data, and we've brought this to your attention Jim. you need to either Remove the T & R references, or the BBB logo, which is it?

Jim also writes:

"In advertising is it really OK to use a statement such as "The best hot tubs in the world." According to the Better Business Bureau's advertising rules, it is not, because it is basically a lie"

If you look at jim's home page, what's written there? you guess it! "The Best HotTubs in the World."

I think we need to contact the BBB. Anyone interested in signing a petition?

[Mike Blute]

I found this quote on James site:

If you read a site and it has the BBB logo and you find unsubstantiated claims used in the advertising of the products, please contact the BBB and let them know. It would be smart if no one purchased a product from a company that basically tells lies - James Arjuna.

I agree. I would sign the BBB petition.

[Trigger]

Folk s can go here http://www.bbbonline.org/consumer/complaint.asp to file a compliant about Jim and the his site.

or you can send email to bbbonlinets@cbbb.bbb.org to file a complaint about The Spa Specialist site, Jim's abuse of the BBB logo, and it's false advertising.

[D.P. Roberts]

I asked the U of Colorado for further clarification (any information on Tong and Rogers from 1996). Here's my letter:

"Thank you so much for your prompt response. The web site you mentioned

>below is the source of my request. That site makes several claims regarding

>hot tub spas, and cites the Tong and Rogers report as its source. However,

>the author of that site has not been able to produce a copy of the Tong and

>Rogers report, and some have questioned whether it even exists. If you have

>any information at all on Tong and Rogers from 1996 I would really be

>interested in seeing it."

And today, I got another response from them:

"We had similar suspicions regarding this report. It could be that it exists, but it doesn't seem to have been published in any typical scholarly way, at the very least. If we come up with anything further, we'll certainly let you know. And, of course, if you find more information, we are happy to try and find it for you.

Regards,

Engineering Library Reference

303-492-5396

engref@colorado.edu"

So, the university where this research allegedly happened doesn't believe the report exists.

So, Jim, any response?

[Roger]

See, I told you guys.

DRUNK FRAT BOYS!

Seriously, if the Engineering Department of the University where this report supposedly originated has (1) no information about it, and (2) similar suspicions regarding this report, I think the matter is now beyond reasonable debate.

Jim the Jim: This looks like some pretty devastating information. In my own opinion, you really need to correct (or at the least, caveat) the information on your website so that potential customers are not mislead regarding the citations of authorities you provide therein.

It now appears that you have been mistaken about the validity of this "Report" for a very long time. Since you have stated that you originally got it from Coleman, I assume that they are the source of this incorrect information.

Given that you repeatedly stress your high moral and ethical standards, I also assume you will take the appropriate action regarding your website as soon as possible. You have always told everyone that you despise the other industry manufactures and retailers who feed their customers lies and half-truths in the hot tub industry. Therefore, I assume you will want to distance yourself from the chicanery associated with this "Report".

Thats false advertising so I filed a complaint. I hate unethical people in the Hot Tub industry.

[Mike Blute]

I filed a complaint as well. There is so much intentionaly WRONG information on the website, it's criminal.

[Tom]

Richs100 wrote: "Seriously, if the Engineering Department of the University where this report supposedly originated has no information about it, I think the matter is now beyond reasonable debate."

I disagree with Rich's logic for two reasons.

1. It is conceivable that another department might have records, or that since two universities are involved, the records might be at the other university.
2. The results of a commissioned study are owned by the purchaser, and may never have been published through any regular channels.

I can't locate any reference to our study at the Alberta Research Council site. I emailed them asking about our study and they have not replied. Does that mean the report "Thermal Performance Test of Spas" doesn't exist, and never existed? Nonsense. It's readily available through our dealers and can be downloaded from our web site.

If Coleman had commissioned the alleged T&R study, it might not have been published through university channels. Coleman would own the results and could suppress or disseminate them at their choice.

Last year in an email, Jim told me, "I don't know where my copy of the original sheet from Coleman is.... It was just a blurb from their advertising and you have the exact quote" so it sounds like that one paragraph is all that he has ever had, and that he himself has never seen or read the original report.

Perhaps "the truth is out there" but until someone turns up physical or electronic evidence, the Tong & Rogers report must join the lost plays of Aeschylus and other vanished literature.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Perhaps "the truth is out there" but until someone turns up physical or electronic evidence, the Tong & Rogers report must join the lost plays of Aeschylus and other vanished literature.

Maybe a Bigfoot ate it (or Sasquatch as our Canadian friends call them)!

[Roger]

Maybe a Bigfoot ate it (or Sasquatch as our Canadian friends call them)!

Kinda takes the wind out of any advertising, are these studys independent or "sanctioned" by a specific manufacturer???? Makes me personaly think they are nothing but BS with skewed results. And anyone purchasing based on the results of these tests as being independent FAIR reviews is being missled. Sorry Tom but I feel the Arctic sanctioned test also is filled with unfair comparisons and skewed results, and driven to make that product out as superior. Arctic is a fine product but only equal to several others and not superior. But salesman ship is what drives this country, may the best man (salesman) win!!

[Trigger]

well, I'll take this all as more evidence in the Jim is a lying sob file that gets brought out each time he claims to be 100% truthful and never lies.

Where I come from, if you can't produce your data, you get laughed out of the business and jim wouldn't last a day.

[Dr. Spa]

Last year in an email, Jim told me, "I don't know where my copy of the original sheet from Coleman is.... It was just a blurb from their advertising and you have the exact quote" so it sounds like that one paragraph is all that he has ever had, and that he himself has never seen or read the original report.

This pretty much backs up what I've been saying all along. Coleman mentioned the "report" in their advertising, but NEVER showed anyone this supposed report, not even their authorized dealers. As I said before, I have a friend that was a dealer for many many years, and even with her many requests for a copy of the report, though she was promised a copy, one was never provided to her. Even she suspected there never was a study done.

[D.P. Roberts]

Where I come from, if you can't produce your data, you get laughed out of the business and jim wouldn't last a day.

1) That is a very good point. In any "scientific" study, the burden is on the person making the claims to prove that the claims are true. Not only is Jim incapable of proving the claims, he has been incapable of even producing any evidence to back up the claim. I can claim that the moon is made of green cheese, and that I have the research to prove it, but until I can produce research for other people to evaluate, it's just a claim.

2) I'd also like to point out that it wasn't just the engineering department that couldn't find it, it's the academic librarians at the school where the research allegedly took place. They didn't just search their own records, they searched ALL the academic databases at their disposal. I can't imagine how two people can work on research sponsored by a university, and the university itself has no record that said research even took place? It may not be "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the research exists, but no reasonable person could possibly take any action (like believing JIJ's claims or buying one of his spas) based on this evidence.

[Roger]

I can claim that the moon is made of green cheese, and that I have the research to prove it, but until I can produce research for other people to evaluate, it's just a claim.

If your going to do that you may as well call us all idiots for not buying into the cheese thing. Besides I know for a fact it is made from marshmellow, and your a friggin blind uneducated moron if you don't beieve it, it's just the facts and they are right in front of your eyes god will stike you down for not realizing it. Cause I am wearing this here red sweater. I wrote it on my site and in my book so you know it's true. Theres an article on my web site that clearly states the moon is made from marshmellow. You have to be ignorant to think otherwise.

[Trigger]

1) Palagerism of mareketing information

2) False engineering studies and citation

3) False ETL claims

4) False ANSI claims

5) False claims about business stability

6) Misleading claims about Engineering degrees.

7) Unsubstantiated claims about electrical usage

8) Outright use of Junk science

9) Defamation of other businesses (Cooking thier books, going out of business, no engineers on staff, etc. etc etc)

10) Direct, inusltive attacks on members and posters here.

12) Out and out false advertising.

What else do we need to document about this person and his scam business?

The upset customers? The lawsuits? The False advertising?

On his own business site he posts false and negative comments about this board, and the integrity of it's members and false information about the hot tubs industry Yet he is allowed to come here and conitnue to post?

WHY?

[Trigger]

Actually, I would like to retract a bit of my statement above.

Let Jim post here. DO NOT Ban Him.

That way he can never accuse this comunity of not allowing him to speak and debate and twist his lies and turn himself into the victum.

Exposing Jim and his lies and crooked business practices is easier when Jim posts here and folks unfamilliar with him can see first hand the lies and dlusions.

I do not want to give Jim the ability to say we will not debate him fully. He restricts his website. Let him post here. The more he posts, the worse he looks.

[Atali Awa]

Actually, I would like to retract a bit of my statement above.

Let Jim post here. DO NOT Ban Him.

That way he can never accuse this comunity of not allowing him to speak and debate and twist his lies and turn himself into the victum.

Exposing Jim and his lies and crooked business practices is easier when Jim posts here and folks unfamilliar with him can see first hand the lies and dlusions.

I do not want to give Jim the ability to say we will not debate him fully. He restricts his website. Let him post here. The more he posts, the worse he looks.

If you ban him, you will not have an opportunity to see what's going on and will lose the opportunity to respond. As a relative newcomer to the forum, it sometimes makes interesting reading. Besides, if you can't spot the BS in those threads, you might need to attend some remedial BS training.

[Roger]

If you ban him, you will not have an opportunity to see what's going on and will lose the opportunity to respond. As a relative newcomer to the forum, it sometimes makes interesting reading. Besides, if you can't spot the BS in those threads, you might need to attend some remedial BS training.

Or you deserve one of his POS tubs with his great attitude and reliability backing you.

[alexmom]

Great thread! Being a total newbie to the whole spa thing, I've read all these posts with both interest and lots of laughs...so thanks!

I've done some more research out of personal interest and came across something. It seems Jim has some competition when it comes to spouting unsubstantiated reports. I came across this site claiming an "independant" research report proves their "Super Spas", with thermopane insulation, are the best. Of course, like Jim, they don't actually cite the report.

http://www.allbrands-hottubandspa.com/hot-...insulation.html

Hmmm...if you sold thermopane spas, and had a report that proves they are dramatically better than full foam spas, wouldn't you WANT people to see it?!! Wouldn't you, at the very least, put a copy of it online so your customers feel your site is honest and don't feel like they need boots to wade through it?? Cuz let me tell ya, hipwaders are insufficent to wade through all the BS (oops I mean superior spa information for the ignorant masses backed by the divine himself, my bad ) on Jim's site! Of course that's just IMHO

Anyway, just had to add this because I simply can't stand people who spout off statistics and claims that they have no intention of backing up and cannot possibly prove. It's a major insult to my intelligence.

[thestallion]

wow, now that ranks in my top five list for being the most blatantly false and misleading peices of propaganda I have ever read about spas. First off Keys is pretty much known to be the among the King of crapa when it comes to the big Pile of steaming low end spas. But there are so many holes in their report with out even mentioning the fact that could have been done by those at a kinder care day center. Lets make one thing abundantly clear from the start not all full foam makers even use the same type of foam, some use it in a structural way others do not but the bottom line different makers build differently than others and this report does not even allow for that. it is a poor attempt to mislead from it first paragraph.

[Roger]

Great thread! Being a total newbie to the whole spa thing, I've read all these posts with both interest and lots of laughs...so thanks!

I've done some more research out of personal interest and came across something. It seems Jim has some competition when it comes to spouting unsubstantiated reports. I came across this site claiming an "independant" research report proves their "Super Spas", with thermopane insulation, are the best. Of course, like Jim, they don't actually cite the report.

http://www.allbrands-hottubandspa.com/hot-...insulation.html

Hmmm...if you sold thermopane spas, and had a report that proves they are dramatically better than full foam spas, wouldn't you WANT people to see it?!! Wouldn't you, at the very least, put a copy of it online so your customers feel your site is honest and don't feel like they need boots to wade through it?? Cuz let me tell ya, hipwaders are insufficent to wade through all the BS (oops I mean superior spa information for the ignorant masses backed by the divine himself, my bad ) on Jim's site! Of course that's just IMHO

Anyway, just had to add this because I simply can't stand people who spout off statistics and claims that they have no intention of backing up and cannot possibly prove. It's a major insult to my intelligence.

Great Post Mom and I think not only is your intelegence being insulted but any newcomer to this forum who reads the BS coming from the darkside is being insulted. And if you happen to buy into the crapola spewed from.....well we all know where, any consequences you suffer you deserve as long as you had the chance to view opposing positions. But if you are suckered in and did not recieve any guidence but that of the self proclaimed spa god......shame on him for his deciet and cruel money motivated ways.

Gettin mean in here huh Jimmy, you started something you can not finish and will never win. Take it like a real man and we may back off.

[alexmom]

wow, now that ranks in my top five list for being the most blatantly false and misleading peices of propaganda I have ever read about spas. First off Keys is pretty much known to be the among the King of crapa when it comes to the big Pile of steaming low end spas. But there are so many holes in their report with out even mentioning the fact that could have been done by those at a kinder care day center. Lets make one thing abundantly clear from the start not all full foam makers even use the same type of foam, some use it in a structural way others do not but the bottom line different makers build differently than others and this report does not even allow for that. it is a poor attempt to mislead from it first paragraph.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I thought when I came across it. I spent a bit more time "wading" through their site, and found the rest of it to be just as bad. So now there are 2 spa sites that require something much more than hipwaders. If it weren't for the fact they probably get customers, it would be truly hilarious.

[alexmom]

Great Post Mom and I think not only is your intelegence being insulted but any newcomer to this forum who reads the BS coming from the darkside is being insulted. And if you happen to buy into the crapola spewed from.....well we all know where, any consequences you suffer you deserve as long as you had the chance to view opposing positions. But if you are suckered in and did not recieve any guidence but that of the self proclaimed spa god......shame on him for his deciet and cruel money motivated ways.

Gettin mean in here huh Jimmy, you started something you can not finish and will never win. Take it like a real man and we may back off.

Thanks Roger, new spa buying is quite daunting for a newbie, and I think a lot of us newbies do a significant amount of research and demand facts rather than accept some sales guys word that something is "superior". This is why sites like the 2 I mentioned above really offend me; they assume that I'm too stupid to know the difference. I also agree with other posters that it's good the mods continue to let Jim continue to post here because anyone who finds his site and doesn't immediately see his claims have more holes than a sieve, will figure it out real fast once they find this forum. That's a the most helpful thing anyone can do, and if people don't bother doing any research, then you're right....shame on them.

[Dr. Spa]

Welllllllllllllllll.................. I gotta jump in here.

Their claim is "System heated up from 82° to 104°, 17% quicker than the exact same spa with full foam insulation.". They're ONLY talking about initial heat up time (though I do question the 17%). IF the motor is keeping te cavity above 104 durring most of the initial heat up time, it may heat up faster due to less heat loss through the sides. HOWEVER, 17% faster?

[thestallion]

Welllllllllllllllll.................. I gotta jump in here.

Their claim is "System heated up from 82° to 104°, 17% quicker than the exact same spa with full foam insulation.". They're ONLY talking about initial heat up time (though I do question the 17%). IF the motor is keeping te cavity above 104 durring most of the initial heat up time, it may heat up faster due to less heat loss through the sides. HOWEVER, 17% faster?

Doc,

That's one of the VERY big holes I mentioned in my post, 6kw heater against ????? what size on the full foam some are 4kw to 6kw but it was not mentioned, I highly and I think reasonably question the whole validity of the study. Also a 6 kw heater pulls more amps thus using more power now it might be a wash in the end as will heat quicker but not at a lesser cost and hey lets be real most want to know about the dollars involved but it still matters to be sure you are comparing like products. And from the study that would be impossible to know.