Bullfrog EOS, Wellspring or NO Ozone on a new 2023 A6L for best experience with keeping water and chemicals balanced?

[Davekro]

Having just received my Taylor K-2006 test kit from Amazon, I am glad I found this site and signed up. 🙂

I am ready to commit the big bucks to buying a VERY attractively priced floor model Bullfrog A6L tomorrow that has their EOS ozone system, but not a Circ pump. That being said, I hope I can get some advice from the knowledgeable folks on this forum before I commit to the water treatment/ pumps combination of this tub that I have negotiated to a price that has me wanting it yesterday. 🤩

This balance and chemical monitoring now really makes me feel clueless if that combination is going to make the ozone not be able to do its job because ozone if not being infused into the water most of the time daily. How long should ozone run per day if just with jet pumps? If with a combination of Jet pumps and a Bullfrog programmable Circ. pump (a 24/7 Circ pump is NOT part of this discussion as it is not an option with Bullfrog).

I just read the long detailed thread in the Hot tub Water Chemistry topic: taylor 2006 kit or test strips? Waterbear answers the OP's detailed questions about his test reading results. WOW! My eyes gloss over with all the water conditions to monitor. Given that chemical and balance juggling act that comes with owning a spa, I want to ask the experts here, is buying a BF tub with their EOS ozone system that would only run when the Jet Pump #1 kick on for its scheduled 2 hours, 2x/ day (default setting that can be changed) and whenever the same filter kicks on when heating is called for by the thermostat. I have no clue the mins./hours per day that a BF A6L's (311 gals.) heat cycling would run in a Northern Calif Winter of Summer to keep it at 104º. With no dedicated Circ pump able to be set to run for longer, slower GPM periods, how many hours per day would this EOS (with supposedly double the normal production of ozone) Ozone system want to be run to maximize its helpful water cleaning effects, and theoretically lessen the amount of and timing of chlorine or bromine (other?) treatments.  Reading waterbear's mind-boggling (to this newbie) knowledge of the intricacies and interactions of all things involved in spa water care, I have to think there would be some rules of thumb if you chose to run ozone. Like maybe,

1) "Yes, you would usually want the ozone generator (EOS -or- regular?) to run way more hours per day than 2 hrs, 2x/day plus heating periods, so some sort of Circ pump is a good thing to keep a Jet Pump from running way longer than its filtering job require." Or,

2) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because the Jet pump's 2x/day at its low speed GPM moves way more water and plus heating periods give the EOS system plenty of run time infusing its O3 to do its beneficial cleaning job." Or,

3) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because you just need to set your Jet pump to run '10' minutes every hour totaling the same '4' hours/ day which equals four hours per day." OR,

4) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because you just need to set your Jet pump to run '20' minutes every hour totaling '8' hours/ day which is not too out of the ordinary. And you just added solar and added enough to cover this planned hot tub." OR,

5) ... some variation or combination of the above??? 😉

I am ready to commit to buy a Bullfrog A6L Select (top trim package) dry 2-month-old floor model. I have been excited because it has the Bullfrog EOS (Enhanced Ozone System) which supposedly puts out twice the amount of ozone during a given period of time vs the Wellspring (regular) ozone generator that is BF's other ozone option. Ozone is not standard on any of their tubs no matter the trim level (Standard, Plus, Select). Neither is their optional Circ. pump. II have been to four BF dealers in the SF Bay Area in the past month. Most floor model A6 Series tubs (2nd to smallest of the A5, A6, A7, A8, A9 models) were ordered by dealers with either BF's more expensive Ozone system, or their Wellspring (regular) Ozone. Literally no floor model A6 or A7's I saw on their floors had been ordered with a Circ. pump.

Bullfrogs optional Circ pump is not the VERY low GPM Circ pumps that 'run 24/7'. It is said to flow ≈ 7x more GPM than the 24/7 only pumps, and are programmable to run 'X' mins. or hours 'X' times per day, I believe. Having decided on the Bullfrog A7L and wanting a good discount and a tub now as opposed to waiting for a spec ordered tub, I have been focusing on what is available at the one independent BF dealer that happens to be nearest me and the 9-store family owned chain over the wider Bay Area.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has specific recommendations based on how this spas EOS ozone system and no Circ pump would blend with managing the water requirements. And OH, the thread linked above put the fear of God into me that I need to study the Taylor K-2006 Guide book cover to cover... ASAP. 🤪

Thanks, Dave

 

[Davekro]

OK, I just read Itchy and Scratchy's biofilm post. Oye! My questions above about ozone in No Way mean I ever thought ozone was a one and done. Even I know you still need to do the same monitoring of the spa, just that supposedly, it will require a bit less additives to maintain the proper balances with my Taylor K-2006 test kit. I want to understand how ozone works together best with proper water care maintenance.

So what is this "3-step bromine method"? And please explain to this newbie what is meant by "Instead of using an 'alternative' sanitizer." For anyone reading this, don't mess with alternative sanitizers or try to rely solely on ozone!

What are the "alternative" sanitizers (that cannot even be named! ;o)

[Davekro]

OK, I found waterbear's How to use Bromine (3 step method)

It's the wee hours here. Got... to.... step.... away.... from.... screeeeeeen

I'll read tomorrow.

[waterbear]

After reading it post any questions you might have.

There are only 4 EPA approved residual sanitizers for hot tubs in the US (3 for swimming pools). They are chlorine, bromine, and biguinide/peroxide for pools and spas and the 4th for spas is silver/MPS/hot water (Nature 2 used with MPS.) The high temperature of a spa is necessity for this combo to have residual sanitizer action but it has slower kill times than the other sanitizers and is not effective against viruses so it is not one I normally recommend. However there are others on here that use it and recommend it ( @RDspaguy )whos opinions I respect.

Anything else is considered an alternative sanitizer and this list includes Ozone, UV, ionizers (except for the Nature2 mentioned above), and " magic in a bottle" products that don't really tell you what is in them or how they actually work but promise that you only need to add their product to have clean, clear water (sanitized water is often never mentioned or the small print will say that it needs to be used with chlorine, bromine, and/or other EPA approved residual sanitizer.

Some of these are not residual (UV, Ozone), some have very slow kill times and some plain just don't work. Clear water does not alway mean safe water. Be aware that every bather introduced feces, urine, and swear (chemically similar to urine) into the water no matter how clean they THINK they are, Pseudomonas infection (hot tub itch), Mycobacterium avium complex (hot tub lung),  Legionnaires’ disease, and other waterborne illnesses such as Cryptosporidium,  E. coli, and protozoal infections such as Giardia are very real but maintaining proper fast acting residual sanitizer in a tub or pool is an effective way to prevent them, as is showering off before going in the water and NEVER going in the water when you have diarrhea.

[Davekro]

Thanks for the response waterbear.

My new Bullfrog A6L won't even be delivered until sometime this coming week (hopefully). I bought 2 different metal reducing Spa Pre-Filters ( Glacier Fresh $26 & PoolPure PF-YW003, KDF55 + Activated Carbon $29 ) so I would have them when the spa arrives if this had a possible benefit, even if minimal. Would these or any other hose end filter reduce the ≈ 340 to 370 ppm TA (tested below) on water out of my hose?

Today, I tested the water from my hose first for Hardness before filling the spa. I took the 25mL sample from the new garden hose that will be used to fill the spa when it arrives (rinsed ≈ 5 mins.) (≈60ºF)

1)Hardness- Calcium CH: 25 mL sample (≈60ºF); 20drops R-10; 5d R-11L; ::: Counting R-12 drops: 17drops almost blue, 18d light blue, 19d ‘seemed’ slightly more blue, 20d same as 19d. Not that 180 ppm vs 190 ppm is much different, but as a rule do you generally choose the drop count (18/180 in my case) that initially shifts from purple to light blue as your ppm CH, or the next drop (19/190) that shifts to a slightly darker blue? If I call it 185 ppm CH, that is only 20% into the acceptable range you show of from 130 to 400, so no need to try to lower that 185 with any anti stain/scale or calcium reducer, right? I left the sample in the tester and ≈ 3 hours later it was purple again. I assume that is normal, right?

Total Alkalinity: Oye, after I got past 20 drops of R-9 sulf. acid into the 25mL sample, I wondered if I should start over, but I’m pretty darned sure I did 2drops R-7, swirled well; 5d R-8, swirled well; ::: Counting R-9 (sulfuric acid .12n) & marking drops as I went. At drop #32 was the first I saw red as the drop hit the sample, but immediately yielded a light Grey; 33d a darker Grey; 34d Grey w/ slight pink tint; 35d Pink; 36d Red (or darker pink?); 37 Darker Red (or pink?); 38d no change, same a 37d. :::: What would you call this reading? 340, 350, 360, or 370 ppm TA?

            Is there anything I can do BEFORE filling this 420 gallon spa to reduce the TA of the city water from the hose? Would the above listed hose end Pre-Filter mineral reduction filters reduce TA? Any other options? I found a 2022 City Water Report (which uses 2021 samples! ), which I will attach in case it gives any info (albeit old) to aid in understanding the water properties I may have coming out of the faucet? My house, built in 1982 has copper water pipes, if that makes any difference.

2) Sodium Bromide:    The dealer I am buying the Bullfrog spa from is including $100 worth of SpaGuard Chemicals, including Chlorinating Concentrate (99% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate).  Since I will be having a Bromide spa, I have no use for this, correct? I spent 30 mins searching & can’t find SpaGuard having a 99% Sodium Bromide product! On Amazon I found that Leisure Time has two Sodium Bromide products that both list 99% Sodium Bromide, but have different labels -and- a 33% difference in price per pound!. What is the difference? Which one do I want to create my Bromine bank/reserve? Why does one cost 33% more at $24/ lb?

BE1 Sodium Bromide 16oz -Leisure Time (99% Sodium Bromide) $17.90/ lb.  I just noticed this one says ‘disinfectant’ in the URL.

 Leisure Time Sodium Bromide 1lb 2 pack (99% Sodium Bromide)  $47.85 ($24/ lb)

3) Shock The Spa to ‘Activate’ (oxidize). Regular (laundry) chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite). Is this plain ole sodium hypochlorite bleach available in a powder or granular for in the laundry aisle? Or maybe powder or granular forms are available marketed to the pool or spa markets, at a higher cost per dose?

4) Put in the floater with your Bromide tabs. Are SpaGuard Brominating Tablets (1-Bromo-3-Chloro-5,5-Dimethylhydantoin: 96%, Other Ingredients: 4%) an OK choice? If so, I’ll ask my dealer to give me this instead of the SpaGuard Chlorinating Concentrate (99% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate).  

Floaters: Having a Bullfrog brand spa, have a froggy floater might be fun.    Frog Large Capacity Pool & Spa Chemical Dispenser | Compatible With Bromine & Chlorine Supports 1-3’’ Tablets | Adjustable For Customizable Flow Rate  $13.47   I’ll see how I like this little fellow.

D'Bay Water Report- 2022.pdf

[waterbear]

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

but as a rule do you generally choose the drop count (18/180 in my case) that initially shifts from purple to light blue as your ppm CH, or the next drop (19/190) that shifts to a slightly darker blue?

Keep adding drops until the last drop added doesn't cause additional color change (in your case the20th drop) and don't count that drop (so you had 19 drops giving you 190 ppm CH. You don't need to worry about lowering it. Anything below about 400 ppm is workable.

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

38d no change, same a 37d. :::: What would you call this reading? 340, 350, 360, or 370 ppm TA?

Same rule as above 370 ppm. You need to lower your TA!

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

Is there anything I can do BEFORE filling this 420 gallon spa to reduce the TA of the city water from the hose? Would the above listed hose end Pre-Filter mineral reduction filters reduce TA?

In a word, no. What is the pH of the fill water?

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

The dealer I am buying the Bullfrog spa from is including $100 worth of SpaGuard Chemicals, including Chlorinating Concentrate (99% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate).  Since I will be having a Bromide spa, I have no use for this, correct?

You can use it to shock the spa and activate your bromide bank.

 

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

but have different labels -and- a 33% difference in price per pound!. What is the difference? Which one do I want to create my bromine bank/reserve?

either one, they are the same thing with different packaging, probably for different markets.

 

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

Is this plain ole sodium hypochlorite bleach available in a powder or granular for in the laundry aisle?

no, sodium hypochlorite is LIQUID chlorine beach or LIQUID pool chlorine. Sodium hypochlorite comes in different strengths. Laundry bleach is usually 5.25% or 6% but cheap dollar store bleach is often 3% and I have seen 8.25%. You want plain, unscented bleach with no thickeners or detergents added. Pool Chlorine is usually 10% or 12.5%

https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/

Powdered chlorine bleach is usually dichlor these days but it was also sold as calcium hypoclorite or cal hypo. These are also the forms of powdered chlorine bleach sold in pool stores, often as a shock.

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

Are SpaGuard Brominating Tablets (1-Bromo-3-Chloro-5,5-Dimethylhydantoin: 96%, Other Ingredients: 4%) an OK choice?

Bromine tabs are bromine tabs. They are all 1-Bromo-3-Chloro-5,5-Dimethylhydantoin or a similar chemical. Fun fact, they have more chlorine in them than bromine. The chlorine converts the bromide into hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer)

3 hours ago, Davekro said:

Floaters: Having a Bullfrog brand spa, have a froggy floater might be fun.

No, you want a floater that is designed for1" tabs and has good adjustability. I would recommend a Pentair floater. In my experience they work the best. They come in beige or blue.

https://www.amazon.com/Pentair-R171090-Chlorine-Floating-Dispenser/dp/B001DSECOS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=27INLAN2IC04O&keywords=Pentair+R171090&qid=1704711264&s=lawn-garden&sprefix=pentair+r171090%2Clawngarden%2C124&sr=1-3

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pentair-R171074-Chlorine-Floating-Dispenser/dp/B002BBDC74/ref=sr_1_3?crid=113PN0KX6YOUL&keywords=R171074&qid=1704711334&s=lawn-garden&sprefix=r171074%2Clawngarden%2C195&sr=1-3

 

 

[Davekro]

Testing drops count to use: Excellent, good to know to go drop that makes no change and use the prior number!

 My tap water TA at 370: I was not sure if a PH test was warranted with that high a count. Figured I’d wait and ask. The PH of my hose/ tap water is 8.0. SO from reading your Lower Total Alkalinity – Howto , it seems I’ll need to wait until the spa arrives and fill it, add PH decreaser (acid) to lower PH down to 7.0 to 7.2, retest TA, aerate to raise PH to ≈ 7.6, repeat acid PH-, aerate PH+, until I get TA down. What would I shoot for as a desired TA level for this purpose?

T1) This being a new spa, is there any value in filling the spa just enough above the intakes in the foot well (3”?, 6”, other), run jet pump #1 at low speed (3-5 mins?) to flush those lines, then turn off #1 and run #2 Jet pump a few mins? I have read a few new spa owners complain of some black pieces of plastic came out of their lines upon running jets the first time. They had no idea what the black pieces were. My dealer tells me that Bullfrog fully water tests every spa before shipping. He implied ;o) other manufacturers would spot water test as their QA. Anyway, if there is no harm in this, it would give peace of mind about ‘nothing in the lines, and I could rinse and wipe down the acrylic (or actually would you use any kind of gentle cleaner?), just to assure no dirt or chemical (overspray?) from the production line is present on the acrylic. Again, this may be more for peace of mind that the shell and plumbing from the production process did not ‘add to’ my water’s balance, etc. Note to readers: If there is a way to be compulsive about something, I’ll go there… That is why I ask the pros! Also, if I learn something from a partial fill that makes me want to drain and refill, for water cost and waste, plus fill TIME via a 5/8” hose, I’d rather not fill it to 420 gallons, then drain.

22) Chlorinating Concentrate (99% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate): “You can use it to shock the spa and activate your bromide bank.” Would the canister show dosages for using that product to do a Shock?

33) Sodium Bromide: Good to know the two Leisure time Sodium Bromide products are identical. Actually, I now see Amazon has Leisure Time Sodium Bromide Tablets, 12/ 2oz packs $24.24. This tablet in 2oz packs version $1.65/ Lb cheaper than the   $17.90/ lb version of Leisure Time BE1 Sodium Bromide 16 oz. (99% Sod. Brom.).  Is this Sodium Bromide ONLY used to create the Bank of Bromide when Spa is drained and refilled 3–4 times (?) per year? My 420 gal. spa would use ≈ only 2.1 oz of Sod. Brom. [ 1/2 oz x (420/100) ]. Do you think the individual 2 oz packets (stored in a cool place), potentially have a longer shelf life because each 2 oz dose is individually sealed vs. the 16 oz in the canister? Though, I could transfer the remaining 14 oz into a ziplock bag and slide the sealed bag into the canister. So 12 packets might be 3-4 year supply of refill tub Banks, while the 16 oz canister might be good for 2–3 years of refill tub Banks. Any preference for asking individual packets to last 3–4 years vs. asking powdered sealed in a ziplock to last 2–3 years, shelf life wise?

44) Chlorine Bleach: Ok, good to know to just look for the house brand laundry bleach and checking the ingredients label. The Business Costco has Clorox Performance Bleach with Chloromax Concentrated 3/ 121 oz jugs.  But the specs I found for this shows its Sodium Hypochlorite 5.0-10.0 %. So what, they say, it may be regular strength in one bottle and double strength in the next???

55) Floater: Thanks for links to the 1” Pentair w/ better adjustability! I ordered the beige one(almond shell).

Ok, That’s it for now. Thanks waterbear.

[waterbear]

3 minutes ago, Davekro said:

My tap water TA at 370: I was not sure if a PH test was warranted with that high a count. Figured I’d wait and ask. The PH of my hose/ tap water is 8.0

That is an extremely high TA and pH for tap water! Is that also from a fauicet in your house? Something does not seem right. Are you on a well?

5 minutes ago, Davekro said:

What would I shoot for as a desired TA level for this purpose?

50 - 70 ppm

6 minutes ago, Davekro said:

My dealer tells me that Bullfrog fully water tests every spa before shipping.

Use a spa purge such as Ahhsome. Good practice on a new spa since the wet testing can cause things to grow in the pipes.

 

12 minutes ago, Davekro said:

Sodium Bromide

Doesn't matter. sodium bromide is sodium bromide. It does not go bad (any more than table salt, sodium chlorde, would go bad). Just get some. The packets can made dosing more convenient  for some people, depending on the size of the tub. Sodium bromide is also used for 2 step bromine where you put sodium bromide in the water and then activate it with an oxidizer such as dichor, MPS, or bleach but it is more work than 3 step bromine since you have to add sodium bromide and oxidizer on a regular basis, possible several times a week.

 

18 minutes ago, Davekro said:

Chlorine Bleach:

Just go to walmart or the grocery store and get the house brand bleach. Ultra bleach will normallhy be 6%. Don't buy a lot at once. Bleach loses strength over time. Same for pool chlorine, which can often be found in gallon jugs in big box stores such s home depot, lowes, and walmart in the swimming pool section. My local grocery store sells pool supplies and also sell 10% pool chlorine. Clorox tends to put additives in their bleach that, while they might help with laundry, don't do anything for your tub and you will pay more.

22 minutes ago, Davekro said:

so what, they say, it may be regular strength in one bottle and double strength in the next???

no, it means that it might start out as high as 10% but it should not be below 5% when you buy it. This is common. The 12.5% bleach (pool chlorine) sold in some pool stores in refillable carboys that is sold as 12.5% is often as high as 17% when it is delivered in bulk to the store and put into their storage tank that they use  fill the carboys. Clorox performance bleach is 7.5% if I am not mistaken

 

[Davekro]

Waterbear,

 

I retested PH directly and got 7.8 from all three places. Is 7.8 PH along with 370 TA, still unusual? The Kitchen faucet, the backyard hose, and the front porch faucet. The front porch spigot is before water goes through the house's copper pipes. This time, so as not to confuse my eyes, I cut a slot in a piece of paper, so I could only see one PH level at a time. That made it easier for this newbie to match the sample to the PH level color next to it.

 

For some reason, for the first round PH test I ran water from the backyard hose into a plastic kitchen bowl, brought it into the house and dipped the test container into the plastic bowl to fill it. I had rinsed the clean plastic bowl well, but who knows if that had an effect to elevate the PH?? I had had my wife look at the first sample, and she said 8.0 as well.

 

Single Use Hot Tub Purge Packet (1.2 oz.). $9.95  My floor model Bullfrog A6L was not wet tested at the dealer. He opened his doors for business Nov. 1, 2023. All his tubs were manufactured October 2023. He only had the A9L with all the bells and whistles for wet testing, plus a swim spa. So mine was only wet for the pre-shipping QA wet test. I have no idea if Bullfrog purges all the water out before shipping, if that’s even possible. If you think, in my case, there is any possible benefit to doing this purge first, I am very game to do that. At a minimum, it will remove any concerns of manufacturing particulates left in the plumbing and if the tub even just had a small amount of non-bather factory test water left, that would be cleared out with a guaranteed fresh start, I guess. Is a full fill necessary to run the purge? If half full, maybe the jets above the water line might shoot or splash out of the tub? Maybe harming the finish on the faux wood composite side panels? With either half or full 420 gallon fill for the purge, what is the process? 1) Heat and run jets for ‘X’ Minutes or hours? 2 ?  3?  4?

 I attached my municipal water report to this post again. No idea if it would give any clues to explain my PA & TA levels.

From page one of the report:

"SOURCES OF SUPPLY    Where does my water come from?
...The drinking
water sources for the Town of Discovery Bay
water systems are groundwater wells,
located in the San Joaquin Valley Basin.
Your water comes from six sources: Well
01B, Well 02, Well 04A, Well 05A, Well
06, and Well 7 and from two
treated locations: Newport Drive Water
Treatment Plant – Treated and Willow
Lake Water Treatment Plant – Treated.

 

I had (mistakenly) assumed water from the aquifers/wells went through a treatment plant first, I guess not. Most people in the town have water softeners. Mine died about 10 years ago. ≈5 years ago, I bought a preowned, but never hooked up salt based soft water set up and about 4 bags of salt, but never got around to hooking it up. Being in the basement, it is out of sight out of mind. Back then I had even made plans to install whole house filters as too. I know those notes are buried somewhere. LOL

Thanks, Dave

D'Bay Water Report- 2022.pdf

[waterbear]

purge the spa (wet testing is commonly done at the factory) to be safe then fill and adjust the TA as a first step. The high TA of your fill water will make it very difficult to maintain proper pH. Your Calcium hardness is fine as it is but with the high TA of your fill water it can lead to scaling. Be aware that after you top off the tub because of splashout or evaporation you might need to make slight adjustments to the TA if it climbs over 80.

[Davekro]

4 hours ago, waterbear said:

purge the spa (wet testing is commonly done at the factory) to be safe then fill and adjust the TA as a first step. The high TA of your fill water will make it very difficult to maintain proper pH. Your Calcium hardness is fine as it is but with the high TA of your fill water it can lead to scaling. Be aware that after you top off the tub because of splashout or evaporation you might need to make slight adjustments to the TA if it climbs over 80.

I will fill the spa, do the purge process with the small foil pack of AHH!some Purge, drain the tub, wipe any residue off the shell, bucket out and sop up remaining water. I'll add some water into some of the jets via the garden hose to try to rinse out or at least dilute whatever slight amount of Ahh!some purge water or residue may be inside the plumbing.

When ready to fill for use, in an attempt to lower my hose water's TA (370) and CH (190), I'm going to see if my dinky 12" x 2" Omnipure K5654 Water Softener filter I use to limit scale in the office coffee equipment I use in my office coffee business. I'll test the CH after the 1/4" in/ out filter has run for 30 mins., then at 3 hours, and 6 hours to see if the resin beads are still providing the same or significant CH reduction to continue that experiment.  The spec sheet says this softener filter has "a Capacity of 700 Grains of Hardness". I don't know what that means for it's ability to soften 210 gallons with a constant flow for ≈ 7 hours. The 0.5 GPM flow rate will theoretically yield 210 gallons, half of the tubs 420 gallon volume, in ≈ 7 hours. I only have one of the 'all softener' filters, but I have several of Omnipure's combination 14" x 2.5" Carbon/ Softener filters, E5786. Data sheets for both Omnipure filters attached if interested.

K5654 (Softener only) Spec sheet.pdf E5786 -Combo Spec Sheet.pdf

[waterbear]

Don't bother. It won't lower TA and, as I said before, you CH is fine.  Just fill and follow rather procedure to lower TA. It might not seem like much is happening at first but just keep repeating the procedure and you will see you TA start to lower.

[Davekro]

OK, my hot tub was finally delivered two days ago (new Bullfrog A6L- 310 gal.).

Last month, I tested my tap water at PH. at 7.8 and TA at 370 PPM. After doing a purge (details at end), I added 310 gals of municipal water. PH was 7.9. I started the TA lowering process. I added the following amounts of sodium bisulfate, testing PH after each dose had circulated on low for 30 mins. 1) 1.5 oz > PH 8.2+,  2) 2 oz > PH 7.85, 3) 4 oz > PH 7.2 [TA at 275 PPM], 4) 0.5 oz > PH 7.6, 5) 2 oz > PH 7.2. Ran jets on high for 30 mins to raise PH. PH went to 8.2+. Having blown through 2/3 of my small bottle of PH Decreaser, I know I have an acid demanding journey to get my TA down, so I am off to the store to get Klean-Strip Muriatic Acid to continue the process. The container literally has NO info on Baume # or Acid %, but Google said it was 20% HCL. That would make it 13º Buame. While the TA is so very high, it is still surprising how little aeration time it takes to spike the PH. I'll try testing PH after 15 mins of aeration instead of 30. After premixing MA into a bucket of spa water, then slowly adding over circulating jets, how long do I need to wait to test for the PH level that acid dose has achieved?

Is there a chart or rule of thumb for what dosages of 20% HCL (Muriatic Acid) equate to Sodium Bisulfate dosages for affecting a 0.X PH decrease? Google keeps pointing to a 10,000 gallon equivalency for pools. My 310 gallons being ≈ 0.03% of 10,000 gallons, I wouldn't trust a calculation of (0.03) x (the 10,000 gallon dose of MA).

EDIT: I found a link for an equivalence of Muriatic Acid (31.45%) to Sodium Bisulfate.

3rd post by Chem Geek here says: 

Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) and dry acid (93.2% Sodium Bisulfate) are both strong acids and have IDENTICAL effects on pool water when using comparable amounts. 1 cup of 31.45% Muriatic Acid is the same as 10.8 ounces weight or about 7.2 ounces volume of dry acid. My shot at the math to convert to 20% MA instead of 31.45%, yields:  12.6 oz of 20% MA =’s 7.2 oz of Sod. Bisulfate.                  7 oz of 20% MA =’s 4 oz of Sod. Bisulfate.

PURGED before initial fresh water fill: I did a purge w/ Ahh!some: a) Ran jets high, scooped off some foam, at 30 min. I turned off jets, cleaned green bio film from water line, the front and backs of the four JetPaks, and bits floating with pool net. b) Running jets immediately again produced more green bio film, so I ran jets high for a second 30-min period. I recleaned all as above. c) I drained, wiping and spraying the shell as level dropped, then vacuumed the rest of standing water and from the base of each JetPack closest to their pumps. d) added ≈ 25 gals of fresh water via all jets to rinse any residual AHH!some out of the plumbing. Re-drained as in c) above.

This being my first purge, and of a new tub, it seemed not have a huge amount of green bio film produced. It was only readily visible on the shell in one corner, plus residual green film behind each JetPak at the water line. The pros know, but in case the newbies wonder...  I'd say it is proof that purging a new hot tub is VERY, VERY important. Why start your tub off with a garden of bio film, even if it may be relatively small, BEFORE adding the high temp water and all the food for it going forward!!!

[waterbear]

18 hours ago, Davekro said:

Klean-Strip Muriatic Acid 

DO NOT USE THIS!

If you check the company's website it says their product is not for use in swimming pools to balance water so it is not for use in hot tubs either. You need plain muriatic acid!

[waterbear]

18 hours ago, Davekro said:

how long do I need to wait to test for the PH level that acid dose has achieved?

Follow the post on lowering TA. The procedure works.

18 hours ago, Davekro said:

Is there a chart or rule of thumb for what dosages of 20% HCL (Muriatic Acid) equate to Sodium Bisulfate dosages for affecting a 0.X PH decrease?

No, it is dependent on the TA for sodium bisulfate, Muriatic acid, or Sulfuric acid (sometimes used in commercial pools). This is why it is important to use an acid demand test. There is an equivalncy for amouts of muriatic acid to use for a given amount of sodium bisulfate but it not going to help in lowing TA since the Taylor acid demand test has charts for both 20 baum muriatic acid and sodium bisulfate so it becomes moot. It is impossible to say how much a given amount of acid will lower the pH. The higher the TA the more resistant the change of pH will be. This is why the TA lowering process might seem to be having no effect at first and then all of a sudden it starts moving very fast.

[Davekro]

"No, it is dependent on the TA for sodium bisulfate, Muriatic acid, or Sulfuric acid..."

I know that a high TA level requires a much larger dose of acid of any kind. My question was not "how much" acid to use, but at a given TA level of the same water sample, for example 100 PPM, what dose of HCL effects the same PH change as say 2 oz of Sod. Bisulfate by volume? My shot at the math to convert from Chem Geek's 31.45% MA to 20% MA yields: "≈ 3.5 oz by volume of 20% MA." I won't swear to the accuracy of my conversion from 31.45% to 20% MA, but that was my question.

 

Muriatic Acid to Sodium Bisulfate acid CHART.xlsx

[waterbear]

Once again, the ONLY way to determine how much acid you need to add for a given pH drop is by an acid demand test. Spa have a very small volume of water so it is very easy to overdose and dropping the pH too low can and will damage pump seals, filter endcaps, and other parts. The amount of acid needed to drop your pH to 7.0 and not lower WILL change as the TA drops. What is hard to understand about this. Converting amounts of one acid to another is moot since the Taylor acid demand tests have tables for both muriatic acid and sodium bisulfate. Why are you making this harder than it is?

[Davekro]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:17 AM, waterbear said:

DO NOT USE THIS!

If you check the company's website it says their product is not for use in swimming pools to balance water so it is not for use in hot tubs either. You need plain muriatic acid!

If you see a reference to this product not to be used in pools, would you post a link? I found nothing on the Klean-Strip product website ( https://kleanstrip.com/green/klean-strip-green-safer-muriatic-acid/ ). or anywhere on the container's label that says not to use in pools. I do not see a reference to pools at all. A search of the SDS for pool, hot tub, spa, gets no hits.

The only knock I can find elsewhere is that the diluted (20% HCL/MA, 13º Baume) is that you just get a lower % of MA by volume than buying straight 31.45% by volume MA. I'll probably by 31.45% MA next time.

Thank you.

[waterbear]

21 hours ago, Davekro said:

If you see a reference to this product not to be used in pools, would you post a link?

:

 

https://kleanstrip.com/tutorials/learn-more-about-klean-strip-green-muriatic-acid

Very first statement on page:

Klean Strip® Green® Muriatic Acid is not manufactured to balance pH in swimming pools.

 

[h20proof]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:55 AM, Davekro said:

Having just received my Taylor K-2006 test kit from Amazon, I am glad I found this site and signed up. 🙂

I am ready to commit the big bucks to buying a VERY attractively priced floor model Bullfrog A6L tomorrow that has their EOS ozone system, but not a Circ pump. That being said, I hope I can get some advice from the knowledgeable folks on this forum before I commit to the water treatment/ pumps combination of this tub that I have negotiated to a price that has me wanting it yesterday. 🤩

This balance and chemical monitoring now really makes me feel clueless if that combination is going to make the ozone not be able to do its job because ozone if not being infused into the water most of the time daily. How long should ozone run per day if just with jet pumps? If with a combination of Jet pumps and a Bullfrog programmable Circ. pump (a 24/7 Circ pump is NOT part of this discussion as it is not an option with Bullfrog).

I just read the long detailed thread in the Hot tub Water Chemistry topic: taylor 2006 kit or test strips? Waterbear answers the OP's detailed questions about his test reading results. WOW! My eyes gloss over with all the water conditions to monitor. Given that chemical and balance juggling act that comes with owning a spa, I want to ask the experts here, is buying a BF tub with their EOS ozone system that would only run when the Jet Pump #1 kick on for its scheduled 2 hours, 2x/ day (default setting that can be changed) and whenever the same filter kicks on when heating is called for by the thermostat. I have no clue the mins./hours per day that a BF A6L's (311 gals.) heat cycling would run in a Northern Calif Winter of Summer to keep it at 104º. With no dedicated Circ pump able to be set to run for longer, slower GPM periods, how many hours per day would this EOS (with supposedly double the normal production of ozone) Ozone system want to be run to maximize its helpful water cleaning effects, and theoretically lessen the amount of and timing of chlorine or bromine (other?) treatments.  Reading waterbear's mind-boggling (to this newbie) knowledge of the intricacies and interactions of all things involved in spa water care, I have to think there would be some rules of thumb if you chose to run ozone. Like maybe,

1) "Yes, you would usually want the ozone generator (EOS -or- regular?) to run way more hours per day than 2 hrs, 2x/day plus heating periods, so some sort of Circ pump is a good thing to keep a Jet Pump from running way longer than its filtering job require." Or,

2) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because the Jet pump's 2x/day at its low speed GPM moves way more water and plus heating periods give the EOS system plenty of run time infusing its O3 to do its beneficial cleaning job." Or,

3) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because you just need to set your Jet pump to run '10' minutes every hour totaling the same '4' hours/ day which equals four hours per day." OR,

4) "No, an extra lower GPM (Circ) pump is not necessary because you just need to set your Jet pump to run '20' minutes every hour totaling '8' hours/ day which is not too out of the ordinary. And you just added solar and added enough to cover this planned hot tub." OR,

5) ... some variation or combination of the above??? 😉

I am ready to commit to buy a Bullfrog A6L Select (top trim package) dry 2-month-old floor model. I have been excited because it has the Bullfrog EOS (Enhanced Ozone System) which supposedly puts out twice the amount of ozone during a given period of time vs the Wellspring (regular) ozone generator that is BF's other ozone option. Ozone is not standard on any of their tubs no matter the trim level (Standard, Plus, Select). Neither is their optional Circ. pump. II have been to four BF dealers in the SF Bay Area in the past month. Most floor model A6 Series tubs (2nd to smallest of the A5, A6, A7, A8, A9 models) were ordered by dealers with either BF's more expensive Ozone system, or their Wellspring (regular) Ozone. Literally no floor model A6 or A7's I saw on their floors had been ordered with a Circ. pump.

Bullfrogs optional Circ pump is not the VERY low GPM Circ pumps that 'run 24/7'. It is said to flow ≈ 7x more GPM than the 24/7 only pumps, and are programmable to run 'X' mins. or hours 'X' times per day, I believe. Having decided on the Bullfrog A7L and wanting a good discount and a tub now as opposed to waiting for a spec ordered tub, I have been focusing on what is available at the one independent BF dealer that happens to be nearest me and the 9-store family owned chain over the wider Bay Area.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has specific recommendations based on how this spas EOS ozone system and no Circ pump would blend with managing the water requirements. And OH, the thread linked above put the fear of God into me that I need to study the Taylor K-2006 Guide book cover to cover... ASAP. 🤪

Thanks, Dave

 

So which did it end up being?  #1, 2, 3, 4, or 5?  I'm getting a Bullfrog with EOS as well and still trying to decide to get a circulation/filtration pump or not, and how often to run it.

[Davekro]

I don't recall getting answers to most of that inquiry. But I read a post from JoyfulNoise over on the TFP forum that said that the EOS system was the correct way to do Ozone. That it running with its chamber mixed ozone was more efficient and did not create near the ozone cloud under the cover that a standard ozone generator does. I ended up with the floor model A6L I had been planning to get. It had EOS, but not a circ. pump. I think I would have preferred a circ. pump, but there is really a split opinion on them. Although, most assume the 'circ. pump' is a low wattage pump running 24/7. As you know,that is not what Bullfrog uses, so I'm still not sure if getting Bullfrog's Circ. pump where you set its run times for however long you want, really fits the situation most circ. pump naysayers refer to. If I was 'ordering a Bullfrog, I'd be leaning towards a circ pump. I don't recall the added price for it. If it was close to $500, then yes. I the option was $1000-$1500, maybe not.