No Flow On Upper Jets - Leisure Bay Spa

[mktj]

Hello all - I have a 22-year-old Leisure Bay 150-gallon spa that is in good shape but has no flow out of the upper jets.

1. The spa is equipped with a Grundfos circulating pump and ionizer that runs 24/7; 3/4 hp blower, and 2 hp jet pump.
2. The circulation pump and ionizer are new and run normally as does the blower and heater.
3. Circulation pump, ionizer, blower, and jets were all replaced within the last two years.
4. There are no errors on the display.
5. I have checked for an airlock, and this does not appear to be an issue as far as I can tell.
6. When running the jet pump, the only jet that functions is the lowest one, with strong flow and bubbles.
7. All the upper jets around the tub do not have any flow at all. This indicates to me that the pump is still operating, and the impeller probably is not sheared.
8. Filter is clear, and the same results happen whether in place or removed. Intakes (two) are clear and have suction when the pump is on, but not strong.
9. The gate valves have never been utilized, and it was suggested the gate can break off in the closed position but will require disassembly to verify.
10. Attached images will show what is and is not working.

I realize this spa is over its realistic lifespan, but it otherwise works and looks fine. I don't want to junk it if possible. I am getting concerned as to whether the vast number of plastics and tubing are going to be a challenge going forward. Any ideas on what I need to look at to resolve this?

[Couch67]

Is this spa new to you, did the jets ever work before? It sounds like you have done a lot of research so this might be a dumb question - have you checked that the jets are set to flow by rotating the dial on each one?

[mktj]

6 minutes ago, Couch67 said:

Is this spa new to you, did the jets ever work before? It sounds like you have done a lot of research so this might be a dumb question - have you checked that the jets are set to flow by rotating the dial on each one?

We are the original owners, bought it new, and have owned and maintained it since 2000. I did try the dials in open and closed position with no difference, and not a dumb question at all. As I continue to analyze this, I wonder if one of those dials has an air leak or broken vinyl tube that would be causing an air lock to the upper jets? A real puzzler. The biggest challenge is the vast maze of plumbing, and all the places they disappear to under the tub. Mark

[CanadianSpaTech]

On top of the pressurized filter there is a black air bleed screw. Try to back that off and see if air escapes. If nothing chances then I would be looking inside the face of the pump by disconnecting the plumbing coupler and making sure there is nothing jammed or blocking the incoming flow of water.  

[mktj]

19 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

On top of the pressurized filter there is a black air bleed screw. Try to back that off and see if air escapes. If nothing chances then I would be looking inside the face of the pump by disconnecting the plumbing coupler and making sure there is nothing jammed or blocking the incoming flow of water.  

I checked the air bleed screw as you suggested, but no air. There doesn't appear to be any air in the system that I can tell. I'll pull the plate off the face of the pump this week. More as I have it. Thanks for your guidance!

[CanadianSpaTech]

If you just disconnect the union/coupler at the face of the pump you should be able to get a look or a finger in there. 

[mktj]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:52 PM, CanadianSpaTech said:

If you just disconnect the union/coupler at the face of the pump you should be able to get a look or a finger in there. 

I checked the gate valves and the impeller on the jet pump, and everything looks nominal and clear. In doing this, I went ahead and drained the tub, and noticed something odd in the bottom of the filter housing. If you go to this site: https://spacare.com/RainbowFilters.aspx You will see an item called the RTL Bypass Valve (#8) within the base of the Rainbow Dynamic Filter Assembly on the inlet side. I noticed that the valve looked like it was cocked, jammed or stuck in its channel and would not move. I could see the spring, so figured it was stuck in an open position. I carefully nudged it loose with a screwdriver and it now is loose in that channel. There appears to be a stainless steel spring that I would assume is supposed to put pressure on it, but it appears to be there, yet is ineffective. Nothing appears to be broken from what can be seen.

My question: Would you know what the purpose of that RTL Bypass Valve is for, and if it could be the culprit. Just not sure what the purpose of that valve is, if it needs to be replaced, or if this was a one-time occurrence.

[RDspaguy]

It is a filter bypass, that allows water to bypass the filter when it is dirty/clogged. It can fail and stick closed or break and close off the filter canister output entirely. Remove filter and test. Loosen filter bleeder with pump on. Does water spray out under high pressure?

The low jet should be the circulation pump return, and should have flow regardless of the jet pump being on or off. I'm guessing the small pipe in the face of the main pump is the circ pump suction, and if so the main pump may increase the circ flow, but it should flow with the main pump off too. Post a pic of this jet. What is the diameter of the jet? In the pic this jet appears to have much greater flow than a grundfos with 3/4" plumbing can make. Diverter jets are often installed in the footwell, and will generally turn off everything else and put all of the flow to this low "whirlpool" or "fountain" jet. Have you tried turning this jet?

The large jet in the recliner could also be a diverter jet, which would control water flow to some or all of the other jets. Are you sure it's not off? 

You cannot usually bleed out an airlock via the pump drain plug. With pump running, loosen the suction side union. 

You may have a broken, or "spun", impeller in the pump. You will need to remove the pump face to find out for sure, so try the other options first.

Post pics of all equipment and circuit board. 

[mktj]

4 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

It is a filter bypass, that allows water to bypass the filter when it is dirty/clogged. It can fail and stick closed or break and close off the filter canister output entirely. Remove filter and test. Loosen filter bleeder with pump on. Does water spray out under high pressure?

The low jet should be the circulation pump return, and should have flow regardless of the jet pump being on or off. I'm guessing the small pipe in the face of the main pump is the circ pump suction, and if so the main pump may increase the circ flow, but it should flow with the main pump off too. Post a pic of this jet. What is the diameter of the jet? In the pic this jet appears to have much greater flow than a grundfos with 3/4" plumbing can make. Diverter jets are often installed in the footwell, and will generally turn off everything else and put all of the flow to this low "whirlpool" or "fountain" jet. Have you tried turning this jet?

The large jet in the recliner could also be a diverter jet, which would control water flow to some or all of the other jets. Are you sure it's not off? 

You cannot usually bleed out an airlock via the pump drain plug. With pump running, loosen the suction side union. 

You may have a broken, or "spun", impeller in the pump. You will need to remove the pump face to find out for sure, so try the other options first.

Post pics of all equipment and circuit board. 

Thank you for your reply, and your time. I had already tried running the system without the filter, and then tried the jets - no change. I then tried the bleeder valve on the lid of the canister. It spewed out only water under pressure, no air. This was all before I drained the tub and found the stuck bypass valve. I also have removed both unions on the jet pump to check the gate valves (open, not broken) as well as the impeller (clear both ends, and seems to be still attached to the motor). I spun the motor end with a screwdriver, and held the impellor at the same time - the impeller could not be rotated separately from the motor.

In removing any airlock at water change time, I always do what you suggest and loosen the suction side union, not the bleeder. The problem with the upper jets started suddenly two weeks ago despite the fact that it had been running fine for several weeks prior with the same water. The jets in question are all on and have not been turned off. My wife is the only one that has used this batch of water and assured me she did not turn any jets off. The jets are all less than one year old, so they are not clogged. Despite the age of the unit, I am finding everything to be pretty clean and clear. No debris or indications that something has given out or broken internally, possibly causing a clog.

The one-year-old Grundfos circulation pump seems to run normally (24/7) as does the new ionizer. When the jet pump starts up, there is a noticeable strengthening of flow (strong, what you would expect) along with bubbles out of that bottom jet, which I'm assuming are coming from the ionizer. 

One thing also - When the jet pump is turned on, there is a noticeable "thump", not violent, but something that did not happen prior to this issue. At that point the upper jets emit just a dribble of water, when a finger is held near one, then all of the flow goes to that single bottom jet. 

Requested images are posted here. Please let me know if you need others. This a serious head scratcher that is becoming close to frustrating.

Thanks again for any help you might have to offer.

[CanadianSpaTech]

Need to see photos of the circuit board as well so we can see how everything is wired. Is the spa wired hard wired for 240V or 120V. Is the main pump new and has it run as it should prior to this issue you are currently having? The jet on the side wall in the footwell is connected to the circ pump and you have good flow so you can dismiss the circ pump as part of the issue. Suggest you disconnect the union that connects the plumbing to the TOP of the pump wet end and use a shop vac with a blower to blow through the system and see if you get air coming out of the jets. Then I would remove the safety cover off the round pump return in the footwell and blow through the system and see if you get air coming out of the top of the pump wet end. Essentially replacing the water with air so you can see if there is a blockage somewhere in the system. I suspect that there might be a one way check valve between the pump intake in the footwell and the main pump that is no longer opening and blocking the flow of water into the pump. 

 

[mktj]

16 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

Need to see photos of the circuit board as well so we can see how everything is wired. Is the spa wired hard wired for 240V or 120V. Is the main pump new and has it run as it should prior to this issue you are currently having? The jet on the side wall in the footwell is connected to the circ pump and you have good flow so you can dismiss the circ pump as part of the issue. Suggest you disconnect the union that connects the plumbing to the TOP of the pump wet end and use a shop vac with a blower to blow through the system and see if you get air coming out of the jets. Then I would remove the safety cover off the round pump return in the footwell and blow through the system and see if you get air coming out of the top of the pump wet end. Essentially replacing the water with air so you can see if there is a blockage somewhere in the system. I suspect that there might be a one way check valve between the pump intake in the footwell and the main pump that is no longer opening and blocking the flow of water into the pump. 

 

Images of the circuit board are attached. The spa came set up for 120V and is plugged into a GFCI circuit in an enclosed Lanai area, protecting it from extreme weather. The 24/7 Grundfos circulation pump was just replaced last year, as were the spa jets, blower, and ionizer. The main single-speed 2hp pump, heater, circuit board, display, fuses, and heater are all original 1999 equipment. The filter is a one-month-old 100 sq ft unit and is clean. Just to clarify, an earlier picture of the jet with two 1/2" orifices is the footwell jet. 

I wanted to get this information to you ASAP. I will do the shop vac blower test next and will report back.

[RDspaguy]

19 hours ago, mktj said:

When the jet pump is turned on, there is a noticeable "thump",

 

17 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

suspect that there might be a one way check valve

The dreaded "thump".  It could also be on the pressure side, and could even be the bypass in the filter. Listen by the filter, does it sound like it's coming from there? If not, I'd guess there is a broken check valve in there somewhere. Have you found any small pieces of plastic in the tub or filter recently?

[mktj]

3 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

 

The dreaded "thump".  It could also be on the pressure side, and could even be the bypass in the filter. Listen by the filter, does it sound like it's coming from there? If not, I'd guess there is a broken check valve in there somewhere. Have you found any small pieces of plastic in the tub or filter recently?

Never a fan of reading the word dreaded. No plastic bits were found at all anywhere. Besides the bypass valve, the only check valve I can see is in the 1 1/2" output line downstream from the jet pump. I just completed a shop vac blower test.

This was done with both unions disconnected from the jet pump.

Intakes: Upper intake has a small diameter that connects to the main 1 1/2" line coming from the lower intake, so that would probably limit the amount of flow. Putting pressure on that intake created a positive, though not strong, airflow at the jet pump intake union, so that indicated it is indeed clear. Lower intake has the larger 1 1/2" line and blew strongly (water and air) at the pump intake union when pressure was applied to the lower intake.

Jets: I then put the shop vac (blower) hose on the jet pump output union. The path of travel was through an open gate valve and a 1 1/2" check valve. and then to the jets. Doing so shot out about 1-2 gallons of water from ALL the jets at the same time, but no debris, only clear water. Here again, no plastic bits or indications of any internal destruction.

I have new gaskets coming for the jet pump unions (not in stock locally), so I won't be able to reassemble everything and try it out until they come in the next week or so. That includes testing the bypass valve. So far, other than the stuck RTL Bypass Valve, nothing has been out of the ordinary. Curious...

When I get the parts, I'll do a full test and report back.

[RDspaguy]

I'd suspect the check valve. Air may not close it, and if it's on the pump output side it is likely a flapper not a spring, which if broken will not close off without water to float the gate. The "thump" is the gate slamming into the back end of the valve body, because the flapper "hinge" (a strip of rubber) has broken and the gate (plastic plug) is floating loose. Pump turns on, gate gets pushed against the output side of the valve and closes it off. You will see a momentary (fraction of a second) flow from the jets, then "thump" and no more flow. 

Spring check valves are similar to the filter bypass, but molded inside of a pvc fitting. The gate is stopped in these by 3 or 4 tiny "fingers" of plastic at the back. If these break, it acts the same as a broken flapper valve. Hence the question about plastic pieces, as they often end up in the tub.

[mktj]

40 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

I'd suspect the check valve. Air may not close it, and if it's on the pump output side it is likely a flapper not a spring, which if broken will not close off without water to float the gate. The "thump" is the gate slamming into the back end of the valve body, because the flapper "hinge" (a strip of rubber) has broken and the gate (plastic plug) is floating loose. Pump turns on, gate gets pushed against the output side of the valve and closes it off. You will see a momentary (fraction of a second) flow from the jets, then "thump" and no more flow. 

Spring check valves are similar to the filter bypass, but molded inside of a pvc fitting. The gate is stopped in these by 3 or 4 tiny "fingers" of plastic at the back. If these break, it acts the same as a broken flapper valve. Hence the question about plastic pieces, as they often end up in the tub.

I put a snake camera up inside the output, past the union and gate valve to the check valve. Picture is below, along with the UPC on the outside of the check valve. It shows it as a Swing Check Valve, so I have to assume this is a flapper style. I'm not a plumber, and obviously not at your level, so not sure what I'm looking for. I did not see anything broken. So if I have to replace the check valve, which type would you recommend?

[RDspaguy]

I'd use the same valve. 

[mktj]

40 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

I'd use the same valve. 

I just received new O-Rings for the pump unions, put the unit back together (same check valve), and filled the tub. This is to do a double check to see if the thump is still there. It hasn't changed. Now that the suspect piece is the check valve on the output side of the pump, it's pretty obvious where the thump is coming from. Time to replace it.

Question: Not sure if I can ask this here or not, but any suggestions on where to go to get the parts? No good spa parts places here locally.  I have to replace (all 1-1/2in) two street els, one union, one gate valve, and the check valve, since they are all glued together and will have to be collectively scrapped. Elbows I can get at Lowes or HD, but not sure where to find the more spa-related components such as the flapper or swing style check valve, threaded union, and gate valve. Lowes only has the spring-type check valve.

[CanadianSpaTech]

Where in the planet are you located? I recommend replacing the check valve with the exact same part as they have a "weighted" spring load. Remember any time you cut plumbing you will end up a minimum 1.5" shorter so you might need to order couplers and hose.

[mktj]

53 minutes ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

Where in the planet are you located? I recommend replacing the check valve with the exact same part as they have a "weighted" spring load. Remember any time you cut plumbing you will end up a minimum 1.5" shorter so you might need to order couplers and hose.

Location is North Central Florida, south of Jacksonville, and north of Daytona Beach on the Atlantic Coast. I was looking for online sources for the parts, and didn't know if I could get them from anyone on this forum. There is plenty of hose, so length is not a problem. I'll make sure to use the same type of check valve. 

[mktj]

Fixed!

Finally got around to taking the check valve out. The rubber hinge on the flapper in the check valve was broken just as RDspaguy suggested. Found the exact same check valve on Grainger for $20 US including shipping. Another $3 at Lowes for an elbow, and a couple of hours of work. Happy wife, happy life...

One good thing out of all of this is that I found that a (below the waterline) four-month-old nylon barbed fitting on the line from the ozonator had crystallized and popped when I bumped up against it. Replaced it with a brass unit, so hopefully, that will be that. Not sure if it was the quality of the fitting or what. Would have been a mess if it had popped on its own.

Thanks, guys. Greatly appreciated.

[SurfKrew]

On 3/6/2022 at 1:52 PM, CanadianSpaTech said:

If you just disconnect the union/coupler at the face of the pump you should be able to get a look or a finger in there. 

Working  a 2007 Dim1 19 DT, spa side problem. Replacing a 15 year old gate valve and PVC Nut and o ring. Got slip type parts from various vendors.  Primed and glued with "Cristy's" blue. Chasing a "Flow Error" with this unit. Good info and excellent knowledge from the forum experts and owner for sure. Thank you all