Pump will only operate at low speed not high speed

[RDspaguy]

8 minutes ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

but I'm not an engineer...oh wait...lol Rd inside

Depends on the country.

[CanadianSpaTech]

We're engineers so we know everything..lol

 

[JWL]

8 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

Ok. Outflow meaning pressure side of the pump? Pressure side check valve not closing? I think that might be the entire problem. I misunderstood, thought you were talking about the spring valve for filtering. Check valves have a flap on a rubber sheet hinge. I call them flappers. The rubber is notorious for getting brittle with time, ph, and chemicals. Eventually it breaks. The flap floats free but will not fit in the pipe, so when pressure hits it the flap closes off the outflow, or most of it if it goes a little crooked. Cut it out and couple it if you can't get a valve. It's only purpose is to let you pull the pump without draining.

A loose flap might also explain the "clunk" I'm hearing sometimes when turning on the low speed.

If I am removing the check valve, it would be the same amount of work to replace it with another vs a coupling, correct? But I suppose it could fail again whereas a coupling won't.

[CanadianSpaTech]

Might be able to fish it out if it broke off. Put your hand on it and try to create the clunk and see if you can feel it sloshing around in there

Arctic spa uses a weird size plumbing and can be a bugger to work on

[RDspaguy]

Weird size?

[CanadianSpaTech]

Inside diameter is different from what I normally use and see. The reflex torsion hose they use I always have problems getting/finding fittings to fit right/tight. Most of their hose goes over the rigid Schedule 40 fittings instead of inside. 

[RDspaguy]

Over the fittings, or over 2" pipe? I worked on a few of those.

[JWL]

13 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

Might be able to fish it out if it broke off. Put your hand on it and try to create the clunk and see if you can feel it sloshing around in there

Arctic spa uses a weird size plumbing and can be a bugger to work on

yay! 😨

[JWL]

I removed the motor and tested the impeller using the screw slot at the end of the motor. The impeller is firmly on the shaft and both move freely. So it looks like all is good there.

Unfortunately I can't see down the hose on the pressure side of the pump as there is a 45* fitting before the check valve. But I did feed a 1/2" clear hose down and once I was able to get past the hard edges I did get it through the check valve with no apparent resistance. Meaning I think the check valve is definitely open and there is no spring or anything closing it. 

I can't picture any way of fishing it out. It shouldn't fit through towards the pump since it is designed to cover that opening. Which also means it likely won't fit through the other end of the check valve fitting either.

So unless there are any other ideas I guess I'll cut that out and get pipe and fittings to replace. Hopefully I won't have to buy the 50' roll for $200 that the Cdn Arctic Spa store is offering!

If check valves are problematic, should I replace it with a ball valve instead? Or just a coupling as hopefully removing the motor won't be a common occurrence.

[RDspaguy]

Ball valve.

[JWL]

1 hour ago, RDspaguy said:

Ball valve.

Ball valve it is.

If I can't get any of the Arctic Spa 2-3/8" flex hose, and I use 2" OD PVC pipe for part of piping coming out of the heater, will I lose much/any pressure out of the jets? Or does the pressure remain the same and the water effectively just moves faster through the PVC pipe?

[RDspaguy]

Smaller pipe increases head, so how hard the pump must work. You already have 2" components, so there is no significant flow restriction. You will be fine. If it is the pipes I am thinking of that glue over the pipe, you would never see a difference if you changed it all the way to valve or manifold. I have done so.

[JWL]

To help clarify what I'm asking about water pressure, I have attached 2 diagrams. In both the water is flowing from the heater at the bottom, to the diverter valve at the top. There is only a 1/2" of pipe between fittings so I am going to need to add some pipe/hose somewhere.

Would the Alternative 1 reduce water pressure to the jets vs the Current?

[RDspaguy]

Either one will be fine.

[CanadianSpaTech]

Are we sure this is the issue? Have you exhausted all other avenues?

Can you use a shop vac blower attachment and try blowing through the lines going in each direction to see if there is a flow issue/blockage elsewhere.

Now that the pump is out where you can see the shaft better have you tried turning it on and visually checking to see if the pump is running both speeds correctly

Is there another pump in the spa that could be swapped into that location and see if there is still a high speed flow issue...just spit balling here. 

[RDspaguy]

All good suggestions. It is kinda tough to diagnose via forum. If you were in my service area you would already be on my schedule. Alot of diagnosing is experience.

I usually know as soon as I lift the cover what problems to look for. And hearing it run is often all I need to find the problem. Things that seem minor are the big clues. Like you hearing a thump when you turn on your pump. That is why I think it is the check valve. I learned to listen for that thump working at 2 different dealerships that both had this problem frequently.

One had the check valve under the diverter, which was plumbed tight to the manifolds. It was a huge job to get rid of those, having to cut and replumb some 30 jet lines into new manifolds and diverter. And install a slice valve at the pump. The other had a suction spring valve at the footwell suction fitting, so you had to stand it up to get to it and replace the suction fitting to get it out. Be happy with where yours is. It could be much worse.

[CanadianSpaTech]

HaHa you have to lift the cover..Phfffft 

[RDspaguy]

I try not to judge by appearances.🤣

[JWL]

11 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said:

Are we sure this is the issue? Have you exhausted all other avenues?

Can you use a shop vac blower attachment and try blowing through the lines going in each direction to see if there is a flow issue/blockage elsewhere.

Now that the pump is out where you can see the shaft better have you tried turning it on and visually checking to see if the pump is running both speeds correctly

Is there another pump in the spa that could be swapped into that location and see if there is still a high speed flow issue...just spit balling here. 

I'd think you guys would be "exhausted" after all the advice you've provided! 😀

Based on the motor sounds and checking the impeller, I'm reasonably confident that the motor is OK (I guess I ought to re-name the thread!).

I'm sure the problem is between the pump and the diverter because I removed the diverter controller when we were diagnosing and there wasn't a lot of waterflow to the diverter. The only things between the pump and the diverter on my tub are the heating tube (I'll check it this morning) and the check valve. We know the check valve wasn't holding water back when I tried to rely on it when removing the motor. By pushing a piece of clear tube the check valve, there didn't appear to be any resistance (from a spring to close it) which is consistent with the check valve valve not operating properly.

And then there is the clunking sound that happens when I initially turn on low speed. That could be the water pressing the loose check valve cover to the far end of the check valve case (where it is not supposed to be) and preventing water flow. If I turned on the low speed again soon it would not make that sound, probably because the cover is already at the far end of the check valve case. If I left the tub for a while I would get the clunk again, probably because the cover had floated away from the far end of the check valve case and was then being slammed to close the opening. During one cycle of going through low speed to high speed, the water movement was noticeably better (not close to good, but a little better). That could be the loose flap just getting into position where it was obstructing the flow a little less.

If it isn't the check valve I'll have spent some time/effort and $30 of materials to replace the 15 year old check valve with a new ball valve. It will be my first tub pipe repair but I've done lots of ABS plumbing drain work, so I should be OK. These are the materials I'm getting (my buddy has some 2" PVC pipe from a repair he did).

https://www.lowes.ca/product/ball-valves/2-in-dia-pvc-sch-40-socket-in-line-ball-valve-21489

https://www.lowes.ca/product/pipe-cements-primers-cleaners/oatey-8-fl-oz-pvc-cement-and-primer-876451

[CanadianSpaTech]

I would cut that check valve out and bring it with you to ensure the ball valve will fit that type of plumbing or try a piece of the 2" pipe in the opening to make sure it will get a tight fit.

Let us know results. Good Luck

[RDspaguy]

Also, do not use primer on flex hose. Just make sure it is clean. Primer the rigid fittings.

[JWL]

12 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

Also, do not use primer on flex hose. Just make sure it is clean. Primer the rigid fittings.

Glad you mentioned that. I've read mixed posts on whether to use primer on flex hose or not.

[RDspaguy]

When I first got in this business, I did some repairs that blew apart. Pushed the pipe right out of the fitting. I asked around, but there was no internet, or job training in this biz, and I drew blanks. So I called the pvc manufacturer. It took a few days for someone to call, but they did. I explained my predicament, he said " Are you using primer on the flex hose?". I said "Of course!". He said "Well DON'T!", and hung up the phone. Ah, the good old days...

So I do not use primer on flex hose. My preferred glue is Christy's red hot blue glue. But not if you are in CA. Different formula to meet CA BS.

[JWL]

8 minutes ago, RDspaguy said:

" Are you using primer on the flex hose?". I said "Of course!". He said "Well DON'T!", and hung up the phone. Ah, the good old days...

You got a legitimate laugh out loud from me on that one.

Thank you for being so generous with your time and expertise. It is greatly appreciated.

[RDspaguy]

Glad to help.