Need Help! Jacuzzi Vs. Elite Maax

[Roger]

Cool...it's funny you say you're a plumber from northern Minnesota but you argue like you know the history of jacuzzi and your not actually selling tubs. I will double check with people who worked for them during merger for my own knowledge but who cares, i was saying they dont have this incredibly long track record of quality product. My point was they aren't far off in quality and I like newer technology in tubs. Having seen wood framing rot and fall apart I am under the opinion steel will last longer (which seeing steel framing is newer then wood that qualifies as newer technology then wood, just like bullfrog using plastic framing) and apparently you feel differently. I am also under the opinion spray foam is over hyped and companies like arctic and Maax are correct in finding efficient ways around it...again you disagree. Oh well...good luck tj. Again my advice from beginning is go with a reputable dealer, wet test when in doubt and if the dealer is willing to stake their reputation on the line it has probably preformed well enough to keep selling and hopefully getting referrals. Maybe if you have doubts about the Maax because people like rodger don't welcome anything new, ask for customer referrals and ask them what they think and their experiences.

Having seen metal frames rust and rivets get loose and fall apart and having seen poorly insulated tubs use 2-3 times more electricity than fully foamed in tubs. Your right, if that's new technology I am against it.

Don't keep saying I am against Arctic though, you keep doing that. They are getting it closer than any other company and build a fine tub. It's funny your hyping them, they have a wood frame??? And I am not sure why you keep comparing 2 inch poorly laid out crappy insulation blankets like Maxx to Arctics up to 4 inch sprayed on foam insulation. There is no comparison there, so for the sake of an OK tub quit doing it. Your offending the Arctic owners here.

[Dr. Spa]

(you'll like this Roger :-)

So, I was thinking, and started playing with some numbers. Say the average spa holds 300 gallons of water. That equates to 40 cubic feet of water. (7.5 gallons of water per cubic foot). Water is 784 to 829 times more dense than air (I did a quick search and came up with these numbers). So, 40 cubic feet of water, multiplied by the average of those, say 800, equals 32,000. This means that 300 gallons of water is equal in density to 32,000 cubic feet of air.

Ok, so 32,000 cubic feet of air...divide that by 8.5 (ceiling height in a typical home), comes to 3764. Correct me if I'm wrong, but heating a 300 gallon spa is like heating a 3700 square foot home....and most homes are only heated to 70 degrees, not 100+ degrees.

[Dr. Spa]

hmmmmmmm, I may be WAY off. Just found something that says "0.02 BTU is needed to raise 1 cu ft of air 1 degree".

That would mean that 1 BTU will raise 50 cubic feet of air 1 degree.

1 BTU will also raise 1 pound of water 1 degree.

So, 1 pound of water is equal to 50 cubic feet of air

300 gallons of water weighs 2500 pounds.

2500 times 50 = 125,000

It takes the same energy to heat 300 gallons of water as it does 125,000 cubic feet of air.

This roughly equals a 10k square foot home.

My math is seriously off somewhere :-)

Come ooooooonnnn end of the day, I'm ready for a beer.

[noarctic]

Cool...it's funny you say you're a plumber from northern Minnesota but you argue like you know the history of jacuzzi and your not actually selling tubs. I will double check with people who worked for them during merger for my own knowledge but who cares, i was saying they dont have this incredibly long track record of quality product. My point was they aren't far off in quality and I like newer technology in tubs. Having seen wood framing rot and fall apart I am under the opinion steel will last longer (which seeing steel framing is newer then wood that qualifies as newer technology then wood, just like bullfrog using plastic framing) and apparently you feel differently. I am also under the opinion spray foam is over hyped and companies like arctic and Maax are correct in finding efficient ways around it...again you disagree. Oh well...good luck tj. Again my advice from beginning is go with a reputable dealer, wet test when in doubt and if the dealer is willing to stake their reputation on the line it has probably preformed well enough to keep selling and hopefully getting referrals. Maybe if you have doubts about the Maax because people like rodger don't welcome anything new, ask for customer referrals and ask them what they think and their experiences.

Having seen metal frames rust and rivets get loose and fall apart and having seen poorly insulated tubs use 2-3 times more electricity than fully foamed in tubs. Your right, if that's new technology I am against it.

Don't keep saying I am against Arctic though, you keep doing that. They are getting it closer than any other company and build a fine tub. It's funny your hyping them, they have a wood frame??? And I am not sure why you keep comparing 2 inch poorly laid out crappy insulation blankets like Maxx to Arctics up to 4 inch sprayed on foam insulation. There is no comparison there, so for the sake of an OK tub quit doing it. Your offending the Arctic owners here.

I think its important to note Roger said "Arctics up to 4 inch sprayed on foam insulation." up to is a lot diffirent than saying 4 inches.

[Roger]

hmmmmmmm, I may be WAY off. Just found something that says "0.02 BTU is needed to raise 1 cu ft of air 1 degree".

That would mean that 1 BTU will raise 50 cubic feet of air 1 degree.

1 BTU will also raise 1 pound of water 1 degree.

So, 1 pound of water is equal to 50 cubic feet of air

300 gallons of water weighs 2500 pounds.

2500 times 50 = 125,000

It takes the same energy to heat 300 gallons of water as it does 125,000 cubic feet of air.

This roughly equals a 10k square foot home.

My math is seriously off somewhere :-)

Come ooooooonnnn end of the day, I'm ready for a beer.

OMG my head hurts...............stop it.

noarctic, Arctic sprays foam up under the lip of the tub from the inside (the tub is actually flipped upside down to do this) yes there is no where near 4 inches up there because there isn't room for 4 inches of foam. But look at how MAXX handles that area, they don't.

[Roger]

hmmmmmmm, I may be WAY off. Just found something that says "0.02 BTU is needed to raise 1 cu ft of air 1 degree".

That would mean that 1 BTU will raise 50 cubic feet of air 1 degree.

1 BTU will also raise 1 pound of water 1 degree.

So, 1 pound of water is equal to 50 cubic feet of air

300 gallons of water weighs 2500 pounds.

2500 times 50 = 125,000

It takes the same energy to heat 300 gallons of water as it does 125,000 cubic feet of air.

This roughly equals a 10k square foot home.

My math is seriously off somewhere :-)

Come ooooooonnnn end of the day, I'm ready for a beer.

OMG my head hurts...............stop it. Motor heat is important to efficiency, it can be used. Venting for cooling to protect motors and a completely sealed cabinet when it's cold out. thermostatically controlled. There was this jerk in Colorado that truly did have the right idea. But he was such a...............

noarctic, Arctic sprays foam up under the lip of the tub from the inside (the tub is actually flipped upside down to do this) yes there is no where near 4 inches up there because there isn't room for 4 inches of foam. But look at how MAXX handles that area, they don't.

Cool...it's funny you say you're a plumber from northern Minnesota but you argue like you know the history of jacuzzi and your not actually selling tubs. I will double check with people who worked for them during merger for my own knowledge but who cares, i was saying they dont have this incredibly long track record of quality product. My point was they aren't far off in quality and I like newer technology in tubs. Having seen wood framing rot and fall apart I am under the opinion steel will last longer (which seeing steel framing is newer then wood that qualifies as newer technology then wood, just like bullfrog using plastic framing) and apparently you feel differently. I am also under the opinion spray foam is over hyped and companies like arctic and Maax are correct in finding efficient ways around it...again you disagree. Oh well...good luck tj. Again my advice from beginning is go with a reputable dealer, wet test when in doubt and if the dealer is willing to stake their reputation on the line it has probably preformed well enough to keep selling and hopefully getting referrals. Maybe if you have doubts about the Maax because people like rodger don't welcome anything new, ask for customer referrals and ask them what they think and their experiences.

There's other company's using composite/plastic framing besides bullfrog.

Hang around these boards for 10-15 years and a bunch of dealers and work on and see a lot of tubs and you learn a lot. Duh, smartical.

[MileHghSpaGuy]

Lol love it.

Hey rodger Maax uses 4" insulation and insulation under the top lip. Was happy you got to learn something today by hanging around on this board. I get much more real life experience so pretty sure only thing ill learn on here would be from chem geek...and I've been on here for years, just didnt post for a long time and forgot old log in.

I know other companies besides bullfrog use synthetic structures like Clearwater, strong and maybe a couple others but its early am cant think...I don't like Clearwater shells and they are both what you would call poorly engineered jetted tub. So I preferred not mentioning.

I have always said the frame shouldn't be a final decision so yes I like arctic, sure I'd prefer if they left wood and went synthetic or steel.

Funny i own a service company and never once seen a steel frame like you have...calling bs.

[Roger]

Lol love it.

Hey rodger Maax uses 4" insulation and insulation under the top lip. Was happy you got to learn something today by hanging around on this board. I get much more real life experience so pretty sure only thing ill learn on here would be from chem geek...and I've been on here for years, just didnt post for a long time and forgot old log in.

I know other companies besides bullfrog use synthetic structures like Clearwater, strong and maybe a couple others but its early am cant think...I don't like Clearwater shells and they are both what you would call poorly engineered jetted tub. So I preferred not mentioning.

I have always said the frame shouldn't be a final decision so yes I like arctic, sure I'd prefer if they left wood and went synthetic or steel.

Funny i own a service company and never once seen a steel frame like you have...calling bs.

"Worked on a lot of tubs for a lot of dealers" I guess this doesn't qualify as real life? Oh well. I like how you try and build up your experience and knock down anyone else. It truly shows that you have a bit of insecurity when called out. I could estimate how many tubs I have worked on because I used to keep a log for the 10 through 15th or so year I did it. Now it's a part time gig but it was 100's per year for a stretch.

No one needs to move away from wood as a framing material. Steel WILL NOT improve the strength or longevity of the frame on a hot tub. The thin steel used in hot tub framing will rust before treated wood will rot. This is not "new technology" that is not going to change the industry as you state. It is nothing more than something those who sell it use as a sales pitch.

I challenge anyone here to go to a lumber yard and make your own comparison. Look at a metal wall stud versus a wood wall stud. See if a sales guy hyping steel as new technology will give you the gauge of the steel in their line of hot tubs and then make your own informed decision. Some company's do use thin 1x2 wood that are very cheaply stapled together for framing. These should be avoided (box stores and some other brands) Company's that use treated lumber on the bottom and have a good frame warranty, the frame will outlive the tub. Customers who are setting their tub in a very wet location should avoid metal and wood.

Neither argument here are new technology. Steel versus wood is neither new technology or an advantage. They will both work fine for the framing structure of a hot tub. This should not be a decision point in anyone's decision. Thermal pane style insulation is neither new technology or an advantage. It has been proven through skewed "independent testing" that it can be almost as good as full foam if done right. This is where it gets tricky for consumers but anyone with half a brain that knows a little bit about insulation can figure it out by opening the side panels on the brand they choose.

And people who tout either as superior are skewed by the brands they are trying to sell. Especially if they are calling it "New Technology"

Come on Mile High......give us some true "new technology" Maybe in some engineering of plumbing or maybe from Waterway in a new jet that can make GPM feel different. Or a heater that uses BTU more efficiently, or a pump that moves more water with less $$

[Loopcity]

At least once per week we are replacing an older tub with a new tub. Many if not most of the older wooden tubs are falling apart. Especially if they had a leak and the foam got saturated and held the moisture next to the wood. They literally fall apart. It's not just the cheap ones either. Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, etc... The foam also loses it's insulating value when wet. Comparing the wood in a house to the wood in a hot tub is an invalid comparison. The wood in your house is totally protected from the elements. Comparing your metal grill to a wood deck is absurd also. Your grill has 500 degree juices splattering on it. It heats up and cools down rather quickly. Also, a well made metal grill will last a lot longer than a cheap one.

Additionally, a deck has air flow over, under and through it to dry it out. A hot tub's frame does not have the same ability to dry once wet. If you never get a leak and you have a plastic base, you may be ok.

Just my 2 cents, not trying to be combative.

[Roger]

At least once per week we are replacing an older tub with a new tub. Many if not most of the older wooden tubs are falling apart. Especially if they had a leak and the foam got saturated and held the moisture next to the wood. They literally fall apart. It's not just the cheap ones either. Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, etc... The foam also loses it's insulating value when wet. Comparing the wood in a house to the wood in a hot tub is an invalid comparison. The wood in your house is totally protected from the elements. Comparing your metal grill to a wood deck is absurd also. Your grill has 500 degree juices splattering on it. It heats up and cools down rather quickly. Also, a well made metal grill will last a lot longer than a cheap one.

Additionally, a deck has air flow over, under and through it to dry it out. A hot tub's frame does not have the same ability to dry once wet. If you never get a leak and you have a plastic base, you may be ok.

Just my 2 cents, not trying to be combative.

No one said wood didn't rot. I've disposed of plenty of rotted wood framed tubs. 15-20 years outside will do that. Good thing there's plenty of airflow inside a Maxx cabinet.

I use a Weber Performer.

[Loopcity]

There is a thread on this same page of a guy with a high end hot tub and the wood frame is rotted out. The tub is not even 15 years old. Roger even posted in that thread. Roger's suggestion was to throw the tub out.

[Roger]

Yep, neglected tubs go to s*** very quickly. I have disposed of less than 10 year old tubs with rotted wood in the frame. But a poorly placed, neglected tub will go to S*** no matter what the frame is made of. I would of suggested the same thing if it had a metal frame.

[MileHghSpaGuy]

How do you neglect the frame? Do you recommend customers open the cabinet and seal their wood framing? Come on man. BTW I have yet to ever dispose of a non wood frame spa...no matter if they "neglected" it or put it in a "bad space". Give it a rest Rodger...I try to give every company their due but you some reason hate Maax and it doesnt make sense. I am guessing they are your competitor and thats it. I am done arguing this topic with you as its apparent you have other motives. This my last post...the funny thing is the potential buyer said he liked the jets better and you still tried to take a shot at their jets. Good luck with your d1 or hot springs store I am guessing.

[PreservedSwine]

How do you neglect the frame? Do you recommend customers open the cabinet and seal their wood framing? Come on man. BTW I have yet to ever dispose of a non wood frame spa...no matter if they "neglected" it or put it in a "bad space". Give it a rest Rodger...I try to give every company their due but you some reason hate Maax and it doesnt make sense. I am guessing they are your competitor and thats it. I am done arguing this topic with you as its apparent you have other motives. This my last post...the funny thing is the potential buyer said he liked the jets better and you still tried to take a shot at their jets. Good luck with your d1 or hot springs store I am guessing.

I suspect when you neglect your water chemistry, you quickly develop shaft seal leaks. When you neglect the leaks, the caustic water is trapped inside the cabinet, and will corrode and destroy a steel frame very quickly. I think you're taking his suggestion a bit out of context, the key word is neglect.

[Roger]

Or you let the snow pile up against the side and settle into the bottom where it rots framing material. There are bunches of ways for moisture to infiltrate a poorly sealed cabinet.

Maxx my competition! LOL No Problem milhi, Maxx is competition to Master Spa and Cal Spa. They might care, but I don't like those brands either. The same quality issues.

Like I said they failed in Northern Minnesota. That says enough.

I am the Fleet/Equipment Division Manager for Jamar Company in Duluth Minnesota. Google it.