Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Bob, it's exactly 110, or exactly what his incoming source voltage is. I see your point, BUT.... What's coming in through red and black is PURE 220.... there is no 110. For 110 you MUST have a neutral (or a ground) connected. The ONLY way to have 110 without a neutral is to have a 220 center tapped transformer GENERATE that missing neutral. Next, measure voltage from heater pole to ground, and you'll get exactly the incoming voltage on each heater pole. Note how you have INCLUDED a ground in this measurement (the ground is the same as the neutral) At any rate... we'll have to agree to disagree here (I don't want to side track Scott's thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Bob, it's exactly 110, or exactly what his incoming source voltage is. I see your point, BUT.... What's coming in through red and black is PURE 220.... there is no 110. For 110 you MUST have a neutral (or a ground) connected. The ONLY way to have 110 without a neutral is to have a 220 center tapped transformer GENERATE that missing neutral. Next, measure voltage from heater pole to ground, and you'll get exactly the incoming voltage on each heater pole. Note how you have INCLUDED a ground in this measurement (the ground is the same as the neutral) At any rate... we'll have to agree to disagree here (I don't want to side track Scott's thread) Fair enough...I think we might be arguing semantics- it's hard to tell. I'm mentioning that his meter will read 110v on the neutral terminals on the PCB with the neutral disconnected at the breaker. (measuring between neutral and ground). His meter will also read 220v between the neutral terminals on the PCB and red, if the neutral is disconnected at the breaker. Even though the voltage at that point is only potential voltage and not realized, his meter will read it nonetheless. As soon as his neutral is connected at the breaker, the voltage at the points in question vanishes. This is a point of fact- I think we can agree on one thing about electricity- it follows laws. At any rate... Scott, please check fuse F4- it's hopefully toasted. It's a real pain to replace that fuse, but you can do it with some patience. 1/2 amp slow-blow. It may appear to be unbroken to your eye, but that fuse is different than a traditional fuse. It's filament is wrapped around substrate in the center, you need to meter it out to see if it's broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Bob, it's exactly 110, or exactly what his incoming source voltage is. I see your point, BUT.... What's coming in through red and black is PURE 220.... there is no 110. For 110 you MUST have a neutral (or a ground) connected. The ONLY way to have 110 without a neutral is to have a 220 center tapped transformer GENERATE that missing neutral. Next, measure voltage from heater pole to ground, and you'll get exactly the incoming voltage on each heater pole. Note how you have INCLUDED a ground in this measurement (the ground is the same as the neutral) At any rate... we'll have to agree to disagree here (I don't want to side track Scott's thread) The ground and neutral are NOT the same in this case- he disconnected his Neutral wire at the breaker, remember? This is why the neutrals on the board are simply the other side of the black wire- which is 110v. This is a convertable board- the black wire is line for all 110v equip- including relays and transformer- it's return path is the neutral. The black wire only uses the red wire (and thus 220v) for return if the customer has 220v equip- which is optional on this board. What isn't optional is the relay coil and transformer voltage which is 110v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Bob, it's exactly 110, or exactly what his incoming source voltage is. I see your point, BUT.... What's coming in through red and black is PURE 220.... there is no 110. For 110 you MUST have a neutral (or a ground) connected. The ONLY way to have 110 without a neutral is to have a 220 center tapped transformer GENERATE that missing neutral. Next, measure voltage from heater pole to ground, and you'll get exactly the incoming voltage on each heater pole. Note how you have INCLUDED a ground in this measurement (the ground is the same as the neutral) At any rate... we'll have to agree to disagree here (I don't want to side track Scott's thread) Fair enough...I think we might be arguing semantics- it's hard to tell. I'm mentioning that his meter will read 110v on the neutral terminals on the PCB with the neutral disconnected at the breaker. (measuring between neutral and ground). His meter will also read 220v between the neutral terminals on the PCB and red, if the neutral is disconnected at the breaker. Even though the voltage at that point is only potential voltage and not realized, his meter will read it nonetheless. As soon as his neutral is connected at the breaker, the voltage at the points in question vanishes. This is a point of fact- I think we can agree on one thing about electricity- it follows laws. At any rate... Scott, please check fuse F4- it's hopefully toasted. It's a real pain to replace that fuse, but you can do it with some patience. 1/2 amp slow-blow. It may appear to be unbroken to your eye, but that fuse is different than a traditional fuse. It's filament is wrapped around substrate in the center, you need to meter it out to see if it's broken. OK. I verified that the F4 fuse is still good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 OK. I verified that the F4 fuse is still good. I believe that's the one he's talking about but that doesn't really make sense. F4 is for board protection. If that was blown the entire board would be dead which is clearly not the case. If a fuse is gone it would be one of the load fuses... 3 a or b (check them all just to be safe) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 OK. I verified that the F4 fuse is still good. I believe that's the one he's talking about but that doesn't really make sense. F4 is for board protection. If that was blown the entire board would be dead which is clearly not the case. If a fuse is gone it would be one of the load fuses... 3 a or b (check them all just to be safe) All fuses verified. I think I may have to give up and buy a new board. I'm not sure what else I can check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well you could always rig it back up the way you originally had it and instead of running the board's 110 output to the heater, run it to a 110 (with 220 contacts) relay and switch the heater's 220 on/off that way. A relay is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new board. You do however need to check your local laws and electrical codes to make sure you stay legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well you could always rig it back up the way you originally had it and instead of running the board's 110 output to the heater, run it to a 110 (with 220 contacts) relay and switch the heater's 220 on/off that way. A relay is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new board. You do however need to check your local laws and electrical codes to make sure you stay legal. You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well you could always rig it back up the way you originally had it and instead of running the board's 110 output to the heater, run it to a 110 (with 220 contacts) relay and switch the heater's 220 on/off that way. A relay is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new board. You do however need to check your local laws and electrical codes to make sure you stay legal. You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it. If the board pictured is the board you're using, it won't run without a neutral. It ran for a few moments without a neutral, because you were supplying 110v coil relays with 220 volts, which ruined them. All the relays on that board use 110v coils. Not having a neutral is not dangerous in any shape, way or form. Not being grounded, however, is dangerous. The only reason the pack requires a neutral, to put it simply, is so it will work. Since it's used for both 110v and 220v applications, all the relays coils are 110v. And you can't have 110v without... a neutral. It gets 110 from splitting off one of the 220v lines, which are 110volts each, which is reason you only see 110v on the large buss fuses. If the fuse blows, you'll actually register 220v metering across the fuse, and 110v on each side. (On the 220v fuses only) Conversely, if the fuse is good, you'll see 110v on each side of the fuse, and ZERO volts across it. (On the 220v fuses only) BTW- where did you have the leads when testing the fuses, what were you testing for (ohms or volts), and what were your results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well you could always rig it back up the way you originally had it and instead of running the board's 110 output to the heater, run it to a 110 (with 220 contacts) relay and switch the heater's 220 on/off that way. A relay is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new board. You do however need to check your local laws and electrical codes to make sure you stay legal. You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it. The board won't run without a neutral. It ran for a few moments without a neutral, because you were supplying 110v coil relays with 220 volts, which ruined them. All the relays on that board use 110v coils. BTW- where did you have the leads when testing the fuses, what were you testing for (ohms or volts), and what were your results? This board will indeed run without a neutral. I didn't just run it for a few seconds, I ran it for well over an hour or two. Also when it was configured that way, only 110 volts were at the relays. I'm sure this is not normal, but then again we know something is wrong somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well you could always rig it back up the way you originally had it and instead of running the board's 110 output to the heater, run it to a 110 (with 220 contacts) relay and switch the heater's 220 on/off that way. A relay is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new board. You do however need to check your local laws and electrical codes to make sure you stay legal. You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it. The board won't run without a neutral. It ran for a few moments without a neutral, because you were supplying 110v coil relays with 220 volts, which ruined them. All the relays on that board use 110v coils. BTW- where did you have the leads when testing the fuses, what were you testing for (ohms or volts), and what were your results? This board will indeed run without a neutral. I didn't just run it for a few seconds, I ran it for well over an hour or two. Also when it was configured that way, only 110 volts were at the relays. I'm sure this is not normal, but then again we know something is wrong somewhere. Can you take an actual pic of the board, as well as the breaker? Something isn't adding up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If the board pictured is the board you're using, it won't run without a neutral. The board picture I believe is convertible between 110 and 220.... and with 220 (as I have tried to tell you several times now) does not use or require a neutral. Scott... No... running without a neutral is not dangerous at all. A neutral is only required should you want to run it as a 110 system. There are plenty of devices which operate with no neutral... most electric 220 heaters.... furnaces... dryers... etc. These are purely 220 devices and therefore do not use (or have) a neutral line. Preserved swine is correct however in stating that running without a ground is dangerous (not sure you can do that anyway with a gfci breaker.... dunno.... never tried it) Short of further investigation to find a proper repair, I would rig the board the way it originally was and test run it for a couple of days (without connecting heat or relay). If the board works out fine with no explosions, fires, sparks... etc, then there is always the option to add a simple 110 relay to supply the necessary 220 to the heater. This will save you a few serious bucks on buying a new board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If the board pictured is the board you're using, it won't run without a neutral. The board picture I believe is convertible between 110 and 220.... and with 220 (as I have tried to tell you several times now) does not use or require a neutral. Bob, we both know true 220v requires no neutral. But a convertable board does not run on true 220v. If a board is truly convertable, it must be able to accommodate either 110v, or 220v. It does this by running all on board circuitry on 110. Even when run "220v" all on board circuitry runs 110, and this is why it requires a neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If a board is truly convertable, it must be able to accommodate either 110v, or 220v. It does this by running all on board circuitry on 110. Even when run "220v" all on board circuitry runs 110, and this is why it requires a neutral. My furnace runs on 220/24... but they don't supply a 24 volt line. Instead they include a 220 to 24 volt transformer. Just because the board may or may not natively operate at 110 volts does not for one single second mean it needs a neutral. In fact if you look at the bottom right of that boadr (number 7) you'll see what is quite clearly a small power transformer. Now tell me... what spa manufacturer would in their right mind would force a customer to spend all that extra money on that heavy (and expensive) 4 conductor cable if could be handled with a small and less expensive transformer and a 3 conductor cable?? Not withstanding.... why in the heck would you need such a heavy neutral conductor for the control circuitry? If a spa manufacturer ever told me that their tubs are 220 but i have to run an expensive 4 conductor line with a neutral anyway.... I'd be out the door so fast.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If a board is truly convertable, it must be able to accommodate either 110v, or 220v. It does this by running all on board circuitry on 110. Even when run "220v" all on board circuitry runs 110, and this is why it requires a neutral. If a spa manufacturer ever told me that their tubs are 220 but i have to run an expensive 4 conductor line with a neutral anyway.... I'd be out the door so fast.... Don't waste your time shopping for: Hot Spring Spas Leisure Bay Spas Dimension One Spas Jacuzzi Spas Regency Hydro And virtually every other nationally sold spa in the US. Show me a 110/220v convertable spa sold in the US that doesn't require a 4 wire service when the customer opt's for 220v operation. I have never seen one. You can't use the ground for a neutral in a GFCI protected spa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Show me a 110/220v convertable spa sold in the US that doesn't require a 4 wire service when the customer opt's for 220v operation. I have never seen one. You don't seem to be getting this.... How about ALL of them? On a 220 system a neutral is not required otherwise it wouldn't be a 220 system. It would be a 220/110 system. Scott's board runs without a neutral. But wait! It's magic that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Show me a 110/220v convertable spa sold in the US that doesn't require a 4 wire service when the customer opt's for 220v operation. I have never seen one. You don't seem to be getting this.... How about ALL of them? On a 220 system a neutral is not required otherwise it wouldn't be a 220 system. It would be a 220/110 system. Scott's board runs without a neutral. But wait! It's magic that's all. who want's to buy my magical board? I'll even give you a good deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I saw your board on Spadepot. They want $249 for a new one: http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Circuit-Board-Balboa-2000LE--P6767C226.aspx You should give them a call and see if they'll send you the manuals on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottc0123 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I saw your board on Spadepot. They want $249 for a new one: http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Circuit-Board-Balboa-2000LE--P6767C226.aspx You should give them a call and see if they'll send you the manuals on it. Thanks for all your help Bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Show me a 110/220v convertable spa sold in the US that doesn't require a 4 wire service when the customer opt's for 220v operation. I have never seen one. You don't seem to be getting this.... How about ALL of them? On a 220 system a neutral is not required otherwise it wouldn't be a 220 system. It would be a 220/110 system. Scott's board runs without a neutral. But wait! It's magic that's all. Speaking of not getting it... Do you understand "convertable" means able to be used in both 110v or 220v applications? - maybe that's why we're having a communication problem here? We are talking about convertable systems here, like this gentleman has... Bob, convertable systems are not "true" 220v systems by design. Since they must be able to work on 110v as well as 220, the board still runs 110v, they require a neutral. When convertable systems are wired for 220v, they still require a neutral. Because the board is operating on 110v, and they don't have the ability to make a neutral out of the ether... Simply check with every single manufacturer of spas in the USA, or just call a local spa dealer. This isn't up for debate. Coincidentally, there are very few true modern 220v portable spa systems . Most spas still use a board that runs 110v (thus requiring a neutral), even if the spa is 220v only- simply so they can use the same control box and circuit board across all models, and a neutral is required for the circuit-board to function. We work on dozens of manufcatures, and there's only one that uses a true 220v system. None of the "convertable" systems are able to function without a neutral. It's abundantly clear you lack any experience in this particular arena. I'm going to file you under, "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." I'm betting your entire spa experience boils down to a single spa... Yours. I feel sorry if Scott has been misled by your unwillingness to listen and lack of product knowledge... edit: If this is a 220v, non convertable board- *and it might be* (I'm making the assumption is convertable because the customer ran a neutral) then yes, it will work fine on 220v with no neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Here is a quote from another thread by Mr. Sanders. I hope the original poster reads it before they have more problems. You don't seem to understand that it is not my knowledge and experience that is being talked about. I've already admitted SEVERAL TIMES NOW that I have very little experience when it comes to discussing things directly related to spas. Since this thread is about a spa circuit board issue and that Mr. Sanders has been arguing with an experienced spa technician about a spa circuit board I think full disclosure of his experience level is relevant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sanders Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm not sure if my post was removed or what.... but I'll try again. I spoke to KREVCO pool and spas (in Winnipeg) on this issue. Their claim was that although there are some cheaper tubs which MUST run with a neutral cable regardless of the voltage mode you choose, most will operate as true 220volt systems with no neutral required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm not sure if my post was removed or what.... but I'll try again. I spoke to KREVCO pool and spas (in Winnipeg) on this issue. Their claim was that although there are some cheaper tubs which MUST run with a neutral cable regardless of the voltage mode you choose, most will operate as true 220volt systems with no neutral required. Bob, shoot me a pm, I'd be happy to fill you in, but this is getting silly. It has nothing to do with cost, it has to do with the length of the sine wave @ 60Hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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