scottc0123

Thanks for all your help Bob.

You don't seem to be getting this.... How about ALL of them? On a 220 system a neutral is not required otherwise it wouldn't be a 220 system. It would be a 220/110 system. Scott's board runs without a neutral. But wait! It's magic that's all. who want's to buy my magical board? I'll even give you a good deal

You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it. The board won't run without a neutral. It ran for a few moments without a neutral, because you were supplying 110v coil relays with 220 volts, which ruined them. All the relays on that board use 110v coils. BTW- where did you have the leads when testing the fuses, what were you testing for (ohms or volts), and what were your results? This board will indeed run without a neutral. I didn't just run it for a few seconds, I ran it for well over an hour or two. Also when it was configured that way, only 110 volts were at the relays. I'm sure this is not normal, but then again we know something is wrong somewhere.

You're a smart man Bob and full of good ideas. However, would it be sort of dangerous to run without a neutral? It would still be grounded. Where do you think I could find that type of relay? Another thing I notice is that only 120 volts are going through all of the fuses even though they are rated for 220. I really wish I could find someone who has this same board configured for 220. I don't think I'm missing any jumpers but it sure seems like it.

I believe that's the one he's talking about but that doesn't really make sense. F4 is for board protection. If that was blown the entire board would be dead which is clearly not the case. If a fuse is gone it would be one of the load fuses... 3 a or b (check them all just to be safe) All fuses verified. I think I may have to give up and buy a new board. I'm not sure what else I can check.

I see your point, BUT.... What's coming in through red and black is PURE 220.... there is no 110. For 110 you MUST have a neutral (or a ground) connected. The ONLY way to have 110 without a neutral is to have a 220 center tapped transformer GENERATE that missing neutral. Note how you have INCLUDED a ground in this measurement (the ground is the same as the neutral) At any rate... we'll have to agree to disagree here (I don't want to side track Scott's thread) Fair enough...I think we might be arguing semantics- it's hard to tell. I'm mentioning that his meter will read 110v on the neutral terminals on the PCB with the neutral disconnected at the breaker. (measuring between neutral and ground). His meter will also read 220v between the neutral terminals on the PCB and red, if the neutral is disconnected at the breaker. Even though the voltage at that point is only potential voltage and not realized, his meter will read it nonetheless. As soon as his neutral is connected at the breaker, the voltage at the points in question vanishes. This is a point of fact- I think we can agree on one thing about electricity- it follows laws. At any rate... Scott, please check fuse F4- it's hopefully toasted. It's a real pain to replace that fuse, but you can do it with some patience. 1/2 amp slow-blow. It may appear to be unbroken to your eye, but that fuse is different than a traditional fuse. It's filament is wrapped around substrate in the center, you need to meter it out to see if it's broken. OK. I verified that the F4 fuse is still good.

I agree with you. I think there must be a jumper that I'm missing or maybe a combination of jumpers. I googled and tried to find manuals and diagrams but can't seem to find much. Does anyone out there have a Balboa m7 system running at 220 that could tell me how their board is configured?

I'm not exactly sure what to probe on the relays, but I purposely closed a relay and the pump started working and the relay stayed closed. It would appear that the voltage needed to close the relay is not there. I know the relay's are good because they work when the board is configured for 110 volt mode. blah

You are right. It was setup as 110volts but I've confirmed the pumps and heater made for 220. I disconnected the jumper and redid the mini jumper switches. It no longer trips the breaker with the neutral attached. The heater is now getting 220 volts. However, neither pump work. The relays are not making the normal CLICK noise when I press either pump button. The light on the display stays lit as if the pump is on, but it's not. Thanks for all your replies. I hate to ask, but do you have any other suggestions?

Please look at this image. There is a wire that jumps from #2 to the other #2. In essence it's connecting red to white. If I disconnect this wire, the breaker does not trip with neutral attached, however the pumps also don't turn on.

Well... it's hard to say if it's the board or a component connected to the board at this point. I would disconnect EVERYTHING from the board except the power, re-probe and see if the short is still there. If it is then at least you have narrowed it to the board. If not then start plugging components back in and probing each time until you find the short. OK. Everything was disconnected when I did these tests. It must be something on the board. Could this be cause by a component on the board going bad? Like that transformer or something? Later today I will pull this board out and make sure there are no metal objects behind it that might be shorting it out(doubt there will be).

What are you talking about?? If you disconnect the white at the breaker panel then you're no longer a 220/110 system but rather PURE 220 (unless you're using the ground for power distribution... which would be against code). If you disconnect the neutral at the breaker panel and measure black to white at the hot tub connection panel you SHOULD get 0 volts (an open circuit). Instead he's getting 220. There is 110 volts on the neutral the SHOULD NOT be there. The neutral is the SAME THING as a ground wire only it's white and not bare copper. Easy enough to test though. Probe the white to ground and you should get 0 volts. If you have a short between white and red some where then you will get 110.... which is what I'm betting. This is most likely why the gfi breaker is popping... it's sensing 110 on the neutral. Ding ding ding.. You are correct Bob! I have 110 when probing white to ground. Do you think I will be able to fix this circuit board or is this what happens when they go bad?

It normal and proper to get 110v on the neutral line at the spa, if you've disconnected the neutral at your breaker. It's the other side of a 110v incomplete circuit. That's not a very good way to troubleshoot anything. If everything works except the heater with the neutral disconnected, I'm a little curious. Is this in the USA? Heaters typically run 220v in the states. It shouldn't need a neutral to run. If you're in the states, something may not be configured properly. In the breaker box, do you have the neutral hooked up the the breaker (for a total of 4 wires hooked up the breaker, including the permanently attached pigtail), or do you have the neutral going to the neutral bar? Yes, this is in the USA. The spa neutral wire goes to the breaker, the pig tail goes to the neutral bar.

Thanks for your reply Bob. Those volts appear with the WHITE disconnected at the breaker. That is why I'm thinking the fault must be in the circuit board some how.

I would truly appreciate anyone's feedback on my situation. I bought a used hot tub (status unknown). I got it home and wired it up (220) to the proper outlet and breaker. I did not fuse the ground and neutral. I flip the breaker on and it trips right away. I disconnected all spa components including the heater and it still trips. With all components connected and the neutral disconnected from the spa, the breaker stays on and all functions of the spa work except the heater. When I probe the heater(heat terminal to ground), I only get 110volt. If I probe across both heat terminals, I get 0 volts. With all components connected and the neutral disconnected from the spa, I probe across where the power lines get screwed down into the system. The results are: red to white = 0 volts black to white = 220 volts black to red = 220 volts Based on what I've read, I'm thinking the system circuit board is bad. Does anyone have an suggestions?