Evolution Key West V. Centurion

[arf1410]

Last week ordered the Evolution Centurion from Costco for $5900...figured it was worth the extra $1000 over the Key West. Now the Key is on special for $3999. Any thoughts on if the Centurion is worth the now extra $2000, or should I cancel and re-order the Key West?

[hot_water]

How can anyone but you answer this question? The Centurion has three water pumps compared to one for the Key West. And it has more fluffy features like water fountains. Some people like that stuff... doesn't matter to others.

Personally I wouldn't buy a Key West because of it just having one pump. I don't think it will have enough grunt. But I also like having different pumps servicing different seats, so I don't have to have every seat getting jets if I (or my guest) doesn't want it. The Centurion is getting a little pricey, though. You have to decide how important the pumps are. If you plan to sit in the quiet and enjoy the evening, pumps don't matter. If you are in this for a strong massage, or like the versatility of multiple pumps, then stick with the Centurion. You have to decide how much it's worth to you.

[endorfin]

The Key West has about the same number of hydro jets as the Evo Magnum. I own the Magnum and we are satisfied with the jet pressure - and it has 2 hydro pumps instead of one. Otherwise, they have the same seating layout. Using this as a guide, if you expect the tub to generally be used by one or two people, you may be just fine with the Key West by closing half the jets. In our case, we generally use the lounger and one of the captains chairs at the same time which forces us to run both pumps (since they are different zones). I went with the Magnum because I felt like we needed 2 pumps. And we definitely did the first 3 months of ownership (when it seemed like there was always 3 or 4 of us in the tub at the same time). Over time, usage drops and now it's usually just 1 or 2 of us at a time - and for that, I believe one pump is sufficient.

[walleye]

Keep the Centurion. It will go on sale soon and Costco will refund the difference. You have a lot more tub than the Key West even at $2K difference.

[arf1410]

Keep the Centurion. It will go on sale soon and Costco will refund the difference. You have a lot more tub than the Key West even at $2K difference.

I ordered the Centurion 2 weeks for for $5999 (on sale from $6999). At that time, I thought it was worth the extra $1000, as the Key West was $4999. Now that the Key West is $3999, and the Centurion has not shipped, I was debating on cancelling and switching. Certainly on paper the Centurion is more of a tub, but in day-to-day use, will those differences really be noticed?

[walleye]

arf1410:

If it was worth 1000.00 more for you to order in the first place, there is some value you placed on it. You bought it on sale and I find it almost impossible to imagine you did not know the Key West would go on sale like they all do. The Key West is not near the hot tub and if it is not going to satisfy you then it is not worth 1 cent. Before you buy anything, imagine all the others on sale as they will be. Go ahead and cancel it but I think you will regret it. To get the same features on a name brand you will spend 10K. With the Key West you will be wishing for more....especially on the pump side. Just my opinion.

[spawn]

Well, you asked for opinions, so here's mine.

The Centurion is not worth $2000 more than the Key West. They have the same layout but the Centurion adds some jets and thus requires more pumps to produce adequate flow to those additional jets. Do not expect that the additional jets and pumps will result in more effective hydrotherapy.

Just sitting in hot water is 80% or more of the experience. Many owners like to sit quietly in their tubs with jets off or on low. If quality of hydrotherapy massage is a critical consideration for you find a tub that you can wet test. If, like many, the hot water benefits, outdoor and social aspects are the main reasons you are buying save your $2000 for a nice vacation.

[hot_water]

The Centurion is not worth $2000 more than the Key West. They have the same layout but the Centurion adds some jets and thus requires more pumps to produce adequate flow to those additional jets. Do not expect that the additional jets and pumps will result in more effective hydrotherapy.

I don't quite understand your logic here. The Key West model has one pump and 60 jets. The Centurion has 3 pumps and 110 jets. I don't know eactly how they split the jets up on these models, but nominally that would be ~37 jets per pump on the Centurion compared to 60 jets per pump for the Key West. This is a large difference.

Reality is more complex that this. The actual flow from a pump is always the point where the impedance curve and the pump curve cross; without knowing the specific curves, it is impossible to know for sure how much you would gain. But it's unlikely that a 3 pump Centurion with 110 jets isn't going to have noticeably better jet performance than a single pump Key West model with 60 jets. If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets. And, in this case, I suspect the resulting operating point would occur far off the pump's output peak. Not to mention that turning off that many jets seems like a hassle many people might not like to deal with.

Would be interested to hear from someone that gets a Centurion about how it actually does. I'm sure we'll get an owner here sooner or later.

As for value, the two additional pumps probably represent $1000 (at the price line, not the cost line). Consider that a different controller is required to operate 3 pumps, which likely acounts for maybe $200 more in price. Thre's 50 additional jet housings and jets (several bucks each) as well as the added plumbing , which is a lot of labor as well as more plumbing tubing etc. And they have added some fluff waterfalls which I don't care about, but others may like - and they do add a few bucks to the cost. So I would say that $2000 is a reasonable uptick for the Centurion, based on what goes into it. Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter.

I do agree with your comment on the jets not being more than 20% of the experience for many users, as well as your comment about wet test. Still, if one was interested in getting a spa with more grunt rather than less, it seems fairly certain that the Centurion would be a definite step up.

[arf1410]

My Centurion should be delivered this week, so I should have a preliminary review in two weeks, though as a first time owner, I won't really have much to compare it with. When I first posted this question, my Centurion had not yet shipped, so switching was a possibility. A day or two later it shipped, and though Costco I'm sure would have let me cancel, once it was en-route, just didn't feel like delaying the process a couple more weeks. If I was placing the order again, and had the choice of either 3999 KW or 5999 C, I would likely choose the KW. I guess the analogy I would give is like a bottle of wine. I do have the palate to appreciate a $30 bottle tasting better than a $8 bottle, but not sure I would appreciate the difference between a $50 bottle and a $100 bottle,though I'm sure a true connoisseur would argue all night long that the $100 really is twice as good as the $50 bottle.

[waterbear]

I guess the analogy I would give is like a bottle of wine. I do have the palate to appreciate a $30 bottle tasting better than a $8 bottle, but not sure I would appreciate the difference between a $50 bottle and a $100 bottle,though I'm sure a true connoisseur would argue all night long that the $100 really is twice as good as the $50 bottle.

However, if you drank wine every day you would soon learn to appreciate the difference in the different price points and a spa, unlike a bottle of wine, is something that you will live with for a long period of time. Usually a bottle of wine is gone is gone is a few days.

[Roger]

If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets.

Looks to be about 30-40 jets you can't turn off. Bullet jets.

[hot_water]

If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets.

Looks to be about 30-40 jets you can't turn off. Bullet jets.

If they're the same jets as used on previous models, they rotate to turn off (90% off, anyway). They're not technically bullet jets. An owner can clarify. I thought you said you've been in a Strong. If so, you would know this.

[spawn]

The Centurion is not worth $2000 more than the Key West. They have the same layout but the Centurion adds some jets and thus requires more pumps to produce adequate flow to those additional jets. Do not expect that the additional jets and pumps will result in more effective hydrotherapy.

I don't quite understand your logic here. The Key West model has one pump and 60 jets. The Centurion has 3 pumps and 110 jets. I don't know eactly how they split the jets up on these models, but nominally that would be ~37 jets per pump on the Centurion compared to 60 jets per pump for the Key West. This is a large difference.

Reality is more complex that this. The actual flow from a pump is always the point where the impedance curve and the pump curve cross; without knowing the specific curves, it is impossible to know for sure how much you would gain. But it's unlikely that a 3 pump Centurion with 110 jets isn't going to have noticeably better jet performance than a single pump Key West model with 60 jets. If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets. And, in this case, I suspect the resulting operating point would occur far off the pump's output peak. Not to mention that turning off that many jets seems like a hassle many people might not like to deal with.

Would be interested to hear from someone that gets a Centurion about how it actually does. I'm sure we'll get an owner here sooner or later.

As for value, the two additional pumps probably represent $1000 (at the price line, not the cost line). Consider that a different controller is required to operate 3 pumps, which likely acounts for maybe $200 more in price. Thre's 50 additional jet housings and jets (several bucks each) as well as the added plumbing , which is a lot of labor as well as more plumbing tubing etc. And they have added some fluff waterfalls which I don't care about, but others may like - and they do add a few bucks to the cost. So I would say that $2000 is a reasonable uptick for the Centurion, based on what goes into it. Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter.

I do agree with your comment on the jets not being more than 20% of the experience for many users, as well as your comment about wet test. Still, if one was interested in getting a spa with more grunt rather than less, it seems fairly certain that the Centurion would be a definite step up.

Your point is clear to me, that you believe that more jets and potentially more power available to each jet, will be better and in this case worth the more than 50% additional increase in cost. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

I am not so sure that it will be better – in what way? With the identical layout comfort will be the same, but the Centurion adds more jets. Most of these appear to be the smaller bullet jets added in secondary locations. Personally, I do not believe that the added jets will result in a meaningful difference in hydrotherapy.

Will more power help? Perhaps, I guess it is a question of how much power is enough. The answer probably varies from person to person. Hopefully it will be easy for the user to adjust power to his liking in the various seats – maybe these tubs could benefit from the use of diverter valves.

We agree that 80% of the experience is about sitting in hot water, 20% in the jetting. You believe that spending more than an additional 50% of the cost to try to improve that final 20% of the experience is worth it. I disagree, but that is just my opinion.

[hot_water]

The Centurion is not worth $2000 more than the Key West. They have the same layout but the Centurion adds some jets and thus requires more pumps to produce adequate flow to those additional jets. Do not expect that the additional jets and pumps will result in more effective hydrotherapy.

I don't quite understand your logic here. The Key West model has one pump and 60 jets. The Centurion has 3 pumps and 110 jets. I don't know eactly how they split the jets up on these models, but nominally that would be ~37 jets per pump on the Centurion compared to 60 jets per pump for the Key West. This is a large difference.

Reality is more complex that this. The actual flow from a pump is always the point where the impedance curve and the pump curve cross; without knowing the specific curves, it is impossible to know for sure how much you would gain. But it's unlikely that a 3 pump Centurion with 110 jets isn't going to have noticeably better jet performance than a single pump Key West model with 60 jets. If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets. And, in this case, I suspect the resulting operating point would occur far off the pump's output peak. Not to mention that turning off that many jets seems like a hassle many people might not like to deal with.

Would be interested to hear from someone that gets a Centurion about how it actually does. I'm sure we'll get an owner here sooner or later.

As for value, the two additional pumps probably represent $1000 (at the price line, not the cost line). Consider that a different controller is required to operate 3 pumps, which likely acounts for maybe $200 more in price. Thre's 50 additional jet housings and jets (several bucks each) as well as the added plumbing , which is a lot of labor as well as more plumbing tubing etc. And they have added some fluff waterfalls which I don't care about, but others may like - and they do add a few bucks to the cost. So I would say that $2000 is a reasonable uptick for the Centurion, based on what goes into it. Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter.

I do agree with your comment on the jets not being more than 20% of the experience for many users, as well as your comment about wet test. Still, if one was interested in getting a spa with more grunt rather than less, it seems fairly certain that the Centurion would be a definite step up.

Your point is clear to me, that you believe that more jets and potentially more power available to each jet, will be better and in this case worth the more than 50% additional increase in cost. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

I am not so sure that it will be better – in what way? With the identical layout comfort will be the same, but the Centurion adds more jets. Most of these appear to be the smaller bullet jets added in secondary locations. Personally, I do not believe that the added jets will result in a meaningful difference in hydrotherapy.

Will more power help? Perhaps, I guess it is a question of how much power is enough. The answer probably varies from person to person. Hopefully it will be easy for the user to adjust power to his liking in the various seats – maybe these tubs could benefit from the use of diverter valves.

We agree that 80% of the experience is about sitting in hot water, 20% in the jetting. You believe that spending more than an additional 50% of the cost to try to improve that final 20% of the experience is worth it. I disagree, but that is just my opinion.

I didn't say that at all. What I said was that while I personally would go for more the model with more pumps, for two reasons - power AND increased control versatility (see post #2), this question can only be answered by each individual buyer. Based on my ownership of an 80 jet Strong with two pumps - which has adequate jet strength but nothing more - it's hard to imagine that a single pump could operate 60 jets. And, multiple pumps do give users in the various seating locations control options that they can't get with a single pump spa. I have absolutely NO issue with you or anyone that doesn't think it's a good expenditure. In fact, for many users it is a great decision - it simply depends on your specific needs, wants and how much you care to spend.

The point I was questioning in your post was your conclusion that hydrotherapy wouldn't be more effective, based on your comments regarding the added pumps being needed to, essentially, offset the higher jet count. In the context of jet power, I think it's fair to say that the more expensive spa is very likely to have notably more power. Will this efect "hydrotherapy"? Well, more power and nearly twice the jet count certainly will... whether this meets any particular buyer's needs can only be determined by the buyer. In this regard I agree with you that if one is looking for something specific in terms of jets, then a spa that can be wet-tested is even more desireable than usual.

I also point out that the $2000 uptick is actually a reasonable charge for what you get, but "Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter". So I am not really arguing for the larger one, just analyzing the benefits one might see and the reasonableness and justifiability of the cost increment.

Your comments on bullet jets (Strong doesn't technically use bullets, which typically can't be rotated off... but nevertheless they are single stream jets) are noted. On the other hand I have found that the single stream jets which can direct a relatively energetic blast at a very small area are actually quite useful for targeting individual sore areas. It is one thing to have a few bullets to save money. It is entirely another to provide a large array of those jets, which allow the user a fair amount of versatility (as long as they are the type that can be rotated on and off) and coverage. Personally, I have never bought into the common argument that high jet count is a waste. This is IMO an argument promoted by those that have low jet counts. High jets count means that more of the body is covered, allowing the user to turn off and on jets to hit just about anywhere one needs to hit. Fewer jets - no matter how fancy or how many streams they have, can't achieve the same coverage. I have played with various types of jets in my spa and find that all of them seem to have uses and positions where they shine. Again, to each his own. I think most users would find that swapping different types of jets into different locations can fine tune any spa. Jets are actually cheap enough that it's no big deal to buy a few different styles and try them out. In any case, single stream jets are not all bad, as they are often portrayed.

A final comment on this topic of jets... it is often cited that the simple single stream jets are used because they are cheaper. This doesn't actually ring true. The jet itself definitely costs less, but the cost of putting 80 or 100 the holes in the shell, and installing the plumbing and jet housing - parts and labor - far outweighs the cost of the jet. When you think about the total cost, the guys that have 35 jets have a lower overall cost of manufacture compared to a spa having 80 or 100 jets. Cutting the holes and routing and gluing the plumbing lines is all manual labor, which (especially in the US) is very expensive. Regarding hydrotherapy, I tend to agree with you that specific hydrotherapy needs are best addressed by wet testing. I also tend to think, as you've stated, that most (not all) people are in this for a recreational relaxation, social use, etc. and as such it doesn't really matter all that much as long as the jets generate some decent force.

[Roger]

If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets.

Looks to be about 30-40 jets you can't turn off. Bullet jets.

If they're the same jets as used on previous models, they rotate to turn off (90% off, anyway). They're not technically bullet jets. An owner can clarify. I thought you said you've been in a Strong. If so, you would know this.

Never been in the Key West model. It was a CSXi80 And it had a lot of bullet jets. I would never adjust another mans jets unless they needed replacing.

[hot_water]

If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets.

Looks to be about 30-40 jets you can't turn off. Bullet jets.

If they're the same jets as used on previous models, they rotate to turn off (90% off, anyway). They're not technically bullet jets. An owner can clarify. I thought you said you've been in a Strong. If so, you would know this.

Never been in the Key West model. It was a CSXi80 And it had a lot of bullet jets. I would never adjust another mans jets unless they needed replacing.

I have a CSXi80. There are no bullet jets. They are single stream, all rotate off.

Never adjust another mans jets? Yeah, right. Then how do you know they weren't all turned halfway off and that's why it felt weak, Roger??? Never mind, it makes no difference to me, to you or to anyone else.

[endorfin]

Hotwater, it looks like Costco discontinued the Cxi80. Didn't that have one hydro pump and an air pump controlled by the option button? or does it have 2 hydro pumps?

[spawn]

The Centurion is not worth $2000 more than the Key West. They have the same layout but the Centurion adds some jets and thus requires more pumps to produce adequate flow to those additional jets. Do not expect that the additional jets and pumps will result in more effective hydrotherapy.

I don't quite understand your logic here. The Key West model has one pump and 60 jets. The Centurion has 3 pumps and 110 jets. I don't know eactly how they split the jets up on these models, but nominally that would be ~37 jets per pump on the Centurion compared to 60 jets per pump for the Key West. This is a large difference.

Reality is more complex that this. The actual flow from a pump is always the point where the impedance curve and the pump curve cross; without knowing the specific curves, it is impossible to know for sure how much you would gain. But it's unlikely that a 3 pump Centurion with 110 jets isn't going to have noticeably better jet performance than a single pump Key West model with 60 jets. If you are alone in the tub, you can always turn off all the jets you aren't using to get the full performance of one pump to one seat. However, with the Key West this would mean you would have to manually shut off something like 45 or 50 jets. And, in this case, I suspect the resulting operating point would occur far off the pump's output peak. Not to mention that turning off that many jets seems like a hassle many people might not like to deal with.

Would be interested to hear from someone that gets a Centurion about how it actually does. I'm sure we'll get an owner here sooner or later.

As for value, the two additional pumps probably represent $1000 (at the price line, not the cost line). Consider that a different controller is required to operate 3 pumps, which likely acounts for maybe $200 more in price. Thre's 50 additional jet housings and jets (several bucks each) as well as the added plumbing , which is a lot of labor as well as more plumbing tubing etc. And they have added some fluff waterfalls which I don't care about, but others may like - and they do add a few bucks to the cost. So I would say that $2000 is a reasonable uptick for the Centurion, based on what goes into it. Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter.

I do agree with your comment on the jets not being more than 20% of the experience for many users, as well as your comment about wet test. Still, if one was interested in getting a spa with more grunt rather than less, it seems fairly certain that the Centurion would be a definite step up.

Your point is clear to me, that you believe that more jets and potentially more power available to each jet, will be better and in this case worth the more than 50% additional increase in cost. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

I am not so sure that it will be better – in what way? With the identical layout comfort will be the same, but the Centurion adds more jets. Most of these appear to be the smaller bullet jets added in secondary locations. Personally, I do not believe that the added jets will result in a meaningful difference in hydrotherapy.

Will more power help? Perhaps, I guess it is a question of how much power is enough. The answer probably varies from person to person. Hopefully it will be easy for the user to adjust power to his liking in the various seats – maybe these tubs could benefit from the use of diverter valves.

We agree that 80% of the experience is about sitting in hot water, 20% in the jetting. You believe that spending more than an additional 50% of the cost to try to improve that final 20% of the experience is worth it. I disagree, but that is just my opinion.

I didn't say that at all. What I said was that while I personally would go for more the model with more pumps, for two reasons - power AND increased control versatility (see post #2), this question can only be answered by each individual buyer. Based on my ownership of an 80 jet Strong with two pumps - which has adequate jet strength but nothing more - it's hard to imagine that a single pump could operate 60 jets. And, multiple pumps do give users in the various seating locations control options that they can't get with a single pump spa. I have absolutely NO issue with you or anyone that doesn't think it's a good expenditure. In fact, for many users it is a great decision - it simply depends on your specific needs, wants and how much you care to spend.

The point I was questioning in your post was your conclusion that hydrotherapy wouldn't be more effective, based on your comments regarding the added pumps being needed to, essentially, offset the higher jet count. In the context of jet power, I think it's fair to say that the more expensive spa is very likely to have notably more power. Will this efect "hydrotherapy"? Well, more power and nearly twice the jet count certainly will... whether this meets any particular buyer's needs can only be determined by the buyer. In this regard I agree with you that if one is looking for something specific in terms of jets, then a spa that can be wet-tested is even more desireable than usual.

I also point out that the $2000 uptick is actually a reasonable charge for what you get, but "Whether it is worth it to a given buyer is another matter". So I am not really arguing for the larger one, just analyzing the benefits one might see and the reasonableness and justifiability of the cost increment.

Your comments on bullet jets (Strong doesn't technically use bullets, which typically can't be rotated off... but nevertheless they are single stream jets) are noted. On the other hand I have found that the single stream jets which can direct a relatively energetic blast at a very small area are actually quite useful for targeting individual sore areas. It is one thing to have a few bullets to save money. It is entirely another to provide a large array of those jets, which allow the user a fair amount of versatility (as long as they are the type that can be rotated on and off) and coverage. Personally, I have never bought into the common argument that high jet count is a waste. This is IMO an argument promoted by those that have low jet counts. High jets count means that more of the body is covered, allowing the user to turn off and on jets to hit just about anywhere one needs to hit. Fewer jets - no matter how fancy or how many streams they have, can't achieve the same coverage. I have played with various types of jets in my spa and find that all of them seem to have uses and positions where they shine. Again, to each his own. I think most users would find that swapping different types of jets into different locations can fine tune any spa. Jets are actually cheap enough that it's no big deal to buy a few different styles and try them out. In any case, single stream jets are not all bad, as they are often portrayed.

A final comment on this topic of jets... it is often cited that the simple single stream jets are used because they are cheaper. This doesn't actually ring true. The jet itself definitely costs less, but the cost of putting 80 or 100 the holes in the shell, and installing the plumbing and jet housing - parts and labor - far outweighs the cost of the jet. When you think about the total cost, the guys that have 35 jets have a lower overall cost of manufacture compared to a spa having 80 or 100 jets. Cutting the holes and routing and gluing the plumbing lines is all manual labor, which (especially in the US) is very expensive. Regarding hydrotherapy, I tend to agree with you that specific hydrotherapy needs are best addressed by wet testing. I also tend to think, as you've stated, that most (not all) people are in this for a recreational relaxation, social use, etc. and as such it doesn't really matter all that much as long as the jets generate some decent force.

I think our discussion is good, to share different perspectives. I agree that additional pumps can make it easier to control power compared to the prospect of closing numerous jets, or to move to a seat with no jets running while other seats may be jetted. But in the end each of the seats is a similar back blaster. Sure, maybe a jet or two is added here, or moved there. While there may be benefits in the additional pumps for power or control, I see no benefit in the additional jets – again, just my opinion. A diverter valve could achieve the benefit of power and control but if many users will frequently be in the tub at the same time then multiple pumps would be necessary if lots of power is desired at all seats simultaneously. How about two pumps in a 60 jet tub or one in a thirty jet tub, unless you usually have four people in the tub?

Although I personally would not buy one of these tubs because I have a strong desire for more effective lower body jetting – feet, ankles, calves, thighs and yes, even the butt area after a 100 mile bike ride, if I were forced to chose between the two I would take the Key West and pocket the difference. I would adjust the jetting in the different seats by turning off maybe 2/3 of the jets. This should give adequate power in the open jets. When I used the tub, I would move from seat to seat to target a specific area, probably spending a different amount of time in each seat. Still we are really only talking about hitting different areas of the back (no I haven’t overlooked the lounge – there is even a chance it would fit me) although by moving in either tub one can hit the upper arms. After a long ride I also like to work the hands, wrists and forearms in front of strong jets – I would probably use the jets in the seat that has only the pair of larger jets for this. I doubt that anyone else uses a tub like I do, but I think that many people do not like to have jets going constantly on the same muscles while they are in the tub, unless they are only in for a short duration.

If my hydrotherapy needs or desires were not important, again the Key West could be my choice of the two, providing the same seating comfort, or lack thereof, for a much lower price. Grab a refreshment, in a non-breakable tumbler, and head to the tub.

Bottom line, if we each faced this choice, you would spend the extra $2000 and take the Centurion, I would save the $2000 and take the Key West. In reality, you bought a tub that is similar to the Centurion, I bought a tub that provides what I described.

[hot_water]

Hotwater, it looks like Costco discontinued the Cxi80. Didn't that have one hydro pump and an air pump controlled by the option button? or does it have 2 hydro pumps?

Yes, they did discontinue that model. It had two jet pumps (what you're calling "hydro" pumps) and no air pump. It used the traditional non-power assisted means of drawing air into the jet stream, controlled by (of course) several on-off valves to service the different seats.

The Magnum 90 non-lounger version appears to be very, very similar to the old CSXi80. The main difference is the additional air pump. I imagine it is an improvement. My spa is adequate, but unspectacular in the jet power department. Opening the air controls made a minor difference. My earlier spa (different brand) provided a very significant boost when opening the air control valves, even though it, too, did not use an air pump. If the Magnum has indeed increased the power to the jets, then I would say that it is a very nice spa. I'm not a big fan of loungers, and really enjoy my CSXi80 so for me the Magnum 90 non-lounger version would probably be my first choice in the current lineup. Unfortunately the price has gone up compared to the old CSXi80, which on sale was going for a very cheap $4800. DOn't recall what the sale price is on the Magnum, but I doubt if it's that low... kind of a shame for new buyers, but then again everything seems to be going up. Plastic is, after all, made from oil... and there is a LOT of copper in those motors.

[hot_water]

Bottom line, if we each faced this choice, you would spend the extra $2000 and take the Centurion, I would save the $2000 and take the Key West. In reality, you bought a tub that is similar to the Centurion, I bought a tub that provides what I described.

I think that's the point I made in post #2. Everyone has to decide what they want and how much they are willing to spend to get it. You bought what fits you best, and that's great.

Just as you wrote about how you use your spa, I make use of the large number of jets (80) in mine. If I went to a spa with fewer jets, I would miss the ability to turn on and off specific jets in a given seat. I also find it very annoying to have to turn off jets in unused positions to get decent power, something that I have to do a bit of with my CSXi80, even though it has two pumps. I switch seats often and having to manipulate jets every time I want to switch would drive me batty. I'm there to relax, not to screw with the controls. Much easier to turn pumps on and off. To each his own. That's why manufacturers offer different models.

Diverters seem like a handy solution, but unfortunately when you pass the entire output of a pump through a diverter, there is a significant pressure loss. Most diverters are not large enough to mitigate the loss. And, you suffer with that loss more or less no matter what position the diverter is in. So I am not a fan of the diverter solution.

[spawn]

Bottom line, if we each faced this choice, you would spend the extra $2000 and take the Centurion, I would save the $2000 and take the Key West. In reality, you bought a tub that is similar to the Centurion, I bought a tub that provides what I described.

I think that's the point I made in post #2. Everyone has to decide what they want and how much they are willing to spend to get it. You bought what fits you best, and that's great.

Just as you wrote about how you use your spa, I make use of the large number of jets (80) in mine. If I went to a spa with fewer jets, I would miss the ability to turn on and off specific jets in a given seat. I also find it very annoying to have to turn off jets in unused positions to get decent power, something that I have to do a bit of with my CSXi80, even though it has two pumps. I switch seats often and having to manipulate jets every time I want to switch would drive me batty. I'm there to relax, not to screw with the controls. Much easier to turn pumps on and off. To each his own. That's why manufacturers offer different models.

Diverters seem like a handy solution, but unfortunately when you pass the entire output of a pump through a diverter, there is a significant pressure loss. Most diverters are not large enough to mitigate the loss. And, you suffer with that loss more or less no matter what position the diverter is in. So I am not a fan of the diverter solution.

Considering that your 80 jet tub is underpowered with two pumps, adding 30 jets and one more pump would not to seem to result in much increase in power to the jets which is one of the reasons that I am skeptical that there would be much difference in hydrothearpy value between the two tubs. Either way it is not going to be great. Save yourself two grand with the Key West.

A better way to go would be to reduce the number of jets, rather than adding more and throwing in another pump. Diverters work great in a well engineered tub, not so great in a poorly engineered one. Personally, I never adjust my jets - they are all fully open. My diverter is normally set in the middle position to deliver water to all jets and we use the tub this way 95% of the time. On occasion, if i really want extra power, I will use the diverter for a limited time and then return it to the middle position. Like you, I would not want to fuss with turning jets on and off, or turning different pumps on and off as I move around the tub to different seats.

[hot_water]

Considering that your 80 jet tub is underpowered with two pumps, adding 30 jets and one more pump would not to seem to result in much increase in power to the jets which is one of the reasons that I am skeptical that there would be much difference in hydrothearpy value between the two tubs. Either way it is not going to be great. Save yourself two grand with the Key West.

A better way to go would be to reduce the number of jets, rather than adding more and throwing in another pump. Diverters work great in a well engineered tub, not so great in a poorly engineered one. Personally, I never adjust my jets - they are all fully open. My diverter is normally set in the middle position to deliver water to all jets and we use the tub this way 95% of the time. On occasion, if i really want extra power, I will use the diverter for a limited time and then return it to the middle position. Like you, I would not want to fuss with turning jets on and off, or turning different pumps on and off as I move around the tub to different seats.

Well yes, I tend to agree with you that it won't be a lot better than what I have. Although the powered air system may be an improvement - I really can't say.

In any case, the question on the table was not the Centurion compared to the CSXi80; it was Centurion v. Key West. As discussed, the Centurion has 37 jets per pump compared to 60 per pump for the KW. That's clearly enough to notice. 60 is a LOT of jets to run off of a single pump.

Since I know that the CSX at an avg of 40 jets per pump is not going to win any awards for jet power, the KW with 60 per pump seems likely to be weaker. WIll it be 2/3 of that performance? Can't tell, there is far more to the design than simply jets per pump. But to me, it's going to be a notch lower, even if they've improved the design somewhat. As I see it, the KW model is ideally suited for someone that places little value on powerful jets, or has a limited budget. Both are legitimate reasons to go in that direction, but one must acknowledge that a KW is unlikely to provide very forceful jets.

It's not true that you get what you pay for... but it is almost always true that you DON'T get what you DON'T pay for. In the case, you're not paying for multiple jet pumps with the KW and you're probably getting less grunt and certainly less control versatility. Could be fine though. I find that the Strong is a very nice spa, excellent quality, great CS, and a great cabinet that requires no maintainance, has a lifetime warranty from Strong and seems like it should never need to use that warranty.

Your opinion on diverters is interesting. Loss is loss, and diverters have a lot of it. There is no magic engineering way around it. But yes, for a given number of pumps, jets and seats - a diverter can make sense. But no matter what, it will cost pressure.

Sure, one can reduce the number of jets. I don't know it it would be better or not. The number of jets per pump is a gross indication... not an engineering parameter. The actual design is much more complex than that. The only reason I brought it up in the first place was because the number of jets per pump was pretty widely disparate between the Centurion and the Key West, making it very likely tha the Centurion would have more powerful jet action. Would fewer jets make it better? Would you rather have more jets at less power each or less jets with more power each? Would you rather have the choice of turning some off to bolster the output of others? I know what I would prefer, but that doesn't mean everyone would feel the same.

[endorfin]

Yes, they did discontinue that model. It had two jet pumps (what you're calling "hydro" pumps) and no air pump. It used the traditional non-power assisted means of drawing air into the jet stream, controlled by (of course) several on-off valves to service the different seats.

The Magnum 90 non-lounger version appears to be very, very similar to the old CSXi80. The main difference is the additional air pump. I imagine it is an improvement. My spa is adequate, but unspectacular in the jet power department. Opening the air controls made a minor difference.

So the Magnum has 2 water pumps feeding about 75 jets (I have the lounger model). The air pump actually just feeds some air only jets. However, opening the air controls boosts my jet power significantly. So much so to the point that if I left it wide open on pump speed 2, I can take about 5 minutes tops before I need to turn it down. The neck jets are a different story. They don't use the air draw and therefor are not as powerful. The specifications are very confusing regarding the "vector air" and maybe some of the models actually operate differently than the Magnum. I'm surprised you see little gain with the air valves open.

The best price I've seen on the Magnum is 5,495 (where I grabbed it).

[hot_water]

Yes, they did discontinue that model. It had two jet pumps (what you're calling "hydro" pumps) and no air pump. It used the traditional non-power assisted means of drawing air into the jet stream, controlled by (of course) several on-off valves to service the different seats.

The Magnum 90 non-lounger version appears to be very, very similar to the old CSXi80. The main difference is the additional air pump. I imagine it is an improvement. My spa is adequate, but unspectacular in the jet power department. Opening the air controls made a minor difference.

So the Magnum has 2 water pumps feeding about 75 jets (I have the lounger model). The air pump actually just feeds some air only jets. However, opening the air controls boosts my jet power significantly. So much so to the point that if I left it wide open on pump speed 2, I can take about 5 minutes tops before I need to turn it down. The neck jets are a different story. They don't use the air draw and therefor are not as powerful. The specifications are very confusing regarding the "vector air" and maybe some of the models actually operate differently than the Magnum. I'm surprised you see little gain with the air valves open.

The best price I've seen on the Magnum is 5,495 (where I grabbed it).

So, it sounds like the "vector air pump" is really more like what other spas call the "blower"? My previous spa had a blower. Those things have become kind of unpopular - they don't do much except cool your water down fast.

Yes, with my spa opening the air controls to the jets introduces a bit of air, and a noticeable but disappointing power increase. My previous spa had very effective air controls, similar to what you describe with your Magnum, that would just about push you out of the seat. Not too long ago, I upgraded a handful of the jets in my spa to those that Strong uses on the dealer version - the "Vienna". The air seems to be a little more effective. I think it's because the total flow is a bit higher with the new jets.

$5495 sounds like a good deal for that spa, if, as you say, the jets have more power. One day if I'm not lazy I'll do something about the power on mine... it's not exactly rocket science to upgrade the plumbing design and pumps.... but then again spas are all about being lazy (at least for me) so... maybe not.

[endorfin]

Yes, unless I'm missing something, that's all the air pump is on the Magnum - a blower. And it does cool the water quickly - I'm guessing we are more likely to use it in the summer. But it counts for 15 of the 90 jets (and they are bullet style). So the magnum has 75 jets to two pumps, and 8 of the jets are neck jets that I normally leave off (net 31 each).

Evo recently added a pump to the Key West they call "Turbo boost pump for increased power at the jets". This is more in line with what you were thinking, I believe. And with 60 jets fed by one pump, it was probably necessary.

And then the Centurion says: "Vector Air Injection System: high-performance turbo air pump system for increased water action!" - and they have 19 air jets. I think Costco needs to do a fresh edit to reduce the confusion. So it has 3 water pumps for 90 jets (net 30 each)