2003 Hot Spring Grandee Vs. 2010 Costco Strong

[Roger]

You missed the point. First of all the pumps that came with my unit were GE pumps. According to the Spa Technician that serviced the unit, they are the same pumps that he sees on the major brands that he works on all the time. So, if I had bought an $8000 spa from another spa dealer, a naysayer like yourself, for example, I would have had the pump go out after three years and you rightfully would have told me that the calcium crud that had blocked the motor up was the result of my failure to monitor the water chemistry properly (I admit that I failed to replace the water 3 times a year, and my hardness level since I am on a well is very hard and should have been monitored better). AND, you would not be replacing the pumps since the warranty did not cover my negligence in this case. I now have a spa and I am out only $3000, my initial payment, with 2 new pumps that are working like it is Day 1, plus I now understand the importance of proper water chemistry so I am sure that I'll get the extended life that the pump normally would see. I think it is funny that the people who sell spas on this forum want us to believe that the spas sold through Costco are made with inferior parts and you will not be able to get support when something goes wrong. That's not the case. I understand why you don't like the competition as it forces you to lower your prices. Or, keep your prices where they are and try and spread the word that other products, like the spas Costco sells, are inferior and without any support. That was not my experience. Costco spas are subcontracted out to factories that make spas and use Balboa controllers, GE pumps, PVC pipes and fiberglass frames for their own line and for OEM sales. There is nothing wrong with the spas and most of the components under the hood, according to my Spa Technician who works on ALL brands under the sun, are the same components he sees on other brands. The myth I was trying to dispel pertains to getting into trouble if you buy a spa from a non Spa Dealer. If you do not have a Spa Tech in your area that you can call on in case you run into a problem, then you are probably better off buying from a local Spa Seller because the higher price is basically a built-in insurance policy.

No......your missing the point! First off I am an independent tech. I don't sell any brand. My opinion of any tub sold through Costco is what it is based on my experience. There past has been crud...nothing more. They have fallen apart after only a few years of service and have hardly made the 5-6 year mark most value tubs need to make in order to be, well, a value. The ONLY thing that makes them even close to a value is the return policy so far and there longevity, which needs to make 5-6 years has yet to be seen!! So your speculation based on your experience is doo-doo.

Since it is Christmas I'll just say politely that I will have to agree to disagree with you. To say that my opinion is "doo-doo" typifies your biased mindset and ignores the reality of how OEM products are made. Welcome to doing business in 2011.

Merry Christmas to you also. And if you don't mind I will keep cutting up the big box store spas with my sawzall every 4-5-6 years when some one asked me to. If your research tells you any tub sold through Costco is a "good" value then you must have some holes in your research. Because if you missed the part where every manufacturer that sold through Costco to date has either gone out of business or failed miserable trying to meet the price point Costco shoppers demand. Will this happen to Strong? Who knows and we shall see. From what I have seen of the tubs they are nothing more than the same as a value line from a dealer with out much support, a few more jets a lessor quality equipment set, a terrible record from the sales house and a return policy. And if your "research" didn't come to the same conclusion........you were blinded by the price!!!

[Odegi]

You missed the point. First of all the pumps that came with my unit were GE pumps. According to the Spa Technician that serviced the unit, they are the same pumps that he sees on the major brands that he works on all the time. So, if I had bought an $8000 spa from another spa dealer, a naysayer like yourself, for example, I would have had the pump go out after three years and you rightfully would have told me that the calcium crud that had blocked the motor up was the result of my failure to monitor the water chemistry properly (I admit that I failed to replace the water 3 times a year, and my hardness level since I am on a well is very hard and should have been monitored better). AND, you would not be replacing the pumps since the warranty did not cover my negligence in this case. I now have a spa and I am out only $3000, my initial payment, with 2 new pumps that are working like it is Day 1, plus I now understand the importance of proper water chemistry so I am sure that I'll get the extended life that the pump normally would see. I think it is funny that the people who sell spas on this forum want us to believe that the spas sold through Costco are made with inferior parts and you will not be able to get support when something goes wrong. That's not the case. I understand why you don't like the competition as it forces you to lower your prices. Or, keep your prices where they are and try and spread the word that other products, like the spas Costco sells, are inferior and without any support. That was not my experience. Costco spas are subcontracted out to factories that make spas and use Balboa controllers, GE pumps, PVC pipes and fiberglass frames for their own line and for OEM sales. There is nothing wrong with the spas and most of the components under the hood, according to my Spa Technician who works on ALL brands under the sun, are the same components he sees on other brands. The myth I was trying to dispel pertains to getting into trouble if you buy a spa from a non Spa Dealer. If you do not have a Spa Tech in your area that you can call on in case you run into a problem, then you are probably better off buying from a local Spa Seller because the higher price is basically a built-in insurance policy.

No......your missing the point! First off I am an independent tech. I don't sell any brand. My opinion of any tub sold through Costco is what it is based on my experience. There past has been crud...nothing more. They have fallen apart after only a few years of service and have hardly made the 5-6 year mark most value tubs need to make in order to be, well, a value. The ONLY thing that makes them even close to a value is the return policy so far and there longevity, which needs to make 5-6 years has yet to be seen!! So your speculation based on your experience is doo-doo.

Since it is Christmas I'll just say politely that I will have to agree to disagree with you. To say that my opinion is "doo-doo" typifies your biased mindset and ignores the reality of how OEM products are made. Welcome to doing business in 2011.

Merry Christmas to you also. And if you don't mind I will keep cutting up the big box store spas with my sawzall every 4-5-6 years when some one asked me to. If your research tells you any tub sold through Costco is a "good" value then you must have some holes in your research. Because if you missed the part where every manufacturer that sold through Costco to date has either gone out of business or failed miserable trying to meet the price point Costco shoppers demand. Will this happen to Strong? Who knows and we shall see. From what I have seen of the tubs they are nothing more than the same as a value line from a dealer with out much support, a few more jets a lessor quality equipment set, a terrible record from the sales house and a return policy. And if your "research" didn't come to the same conclusion........you were blinded by the price!!!

Since the holidays are over, I'll reply from the heart.. you really are an idiot.

How can you knock Costco's return policy and support if you read what I was saying? Within two weeks of reporting the problem I had 2 brand new pumps and they paid all labor charges to install them... I cannot imagine what your idea of GOOD support is, if this is "terrible" support. And my research has holes in it??? ...the only hole is the one in your head. My tech said that the GE pumps that he replaced are the exact same ones he has seen on units that sell for two and three times as much. Just to prove you are not a complete idiot, however, he did say that some of the other clamps and circuits were not the best quality, but they were not the source of my problem. If Costco grinds the manufacturers to the point that they cannot stay in business, that is not my problem if Costco continues to support the sale. That is Costco coming up with a heckuva price and I am not "blinded" by the price, but smart enough to know value and not over pay. (for the record, I didn't miss the point about some manufacturers going out of business, I TOLD YOU that mine went out of business)...and I never said ALL spas offered by Costco are great value. I have researched the OEM manufacturers that Costco uses and rejected several based on the reputation and feedback from users. I felt that Infinity Spas that manufactured mine was reputable, I corresponded directly with the factory and exchanged about 10 emails before getting the answers and assurances I needed. If they wanted to put together a unit at a discounted price, knowing that they had 10,000 units pre-sold, it seemed like a good way to get a good spa for the money. My main concern was the heating bills as that seems to be one sure tell-tale sign of proof. If you have lousy insulation, poor equipment and inefficient heater/pump mechanisms, you are going to pay for it heating your bills. I have read about cheap spas costing over $100/month to run... mine comes in around $40/month. My research was extensive and not flawed. Anyone reading our exchanges, anyone can see your comments are pre-determined and ignore what I am stating... another thing... I never wished you a Merry Christmas... you can't even get that right...

[hot_water]

Since the holidays are over, I'll reply from the heart.. you really are an idiot.

Hilarious!

All the positive owner experiences about Strong or Costco haven't convinced Roger... facts be damned. But ok, Roger really doesn't matter, does he? Anyone that believes his blah-blah-blah in preference to real life owner experiences deserves... well, good luck and happy tubbing to them, too.

[PFC5]

I may think Roger pushes the benefits of the higher end dealer spas an awful lot more than what I see as reality (think the 100s of tennis rackets in trade comment for trading in a high end spa vs buying a cheaper one to try as the first spa), but there is no need to call names IMO. It serves no purpose and just ruins threads. People CAN agree to disagree and just leave it at that IMO.

[Roger]

I may think Roger pushes the benefits of the higher end dealer spas an awful lot more than what I see as reality (think the 100s of tennis rackets in trade comment for trading in a high end spa vs buying a cheaper one to try as the first spa), but there is no need to call names IMO. It serves no purpose and just ruins threads. People CAN agree to disagree and just leave it at that IMO.

The best part is that I have gone down this road before with plenty of "happy owners of Costco tubs" 2-3 differnt brands over the course of 6-8 years. And it always ended up the same way. With me still saying that a tub sold through Costco is nothing more than a LOW to possibly middle of the road value tub with a return policy. And if Ode's tech thinks the GE motor is the same as the pumps used in the higher end tubs then maybe he needs to take a class on the difference between a motor and a pump and the connection between the 2 and the hundreds of different pumps, motors, seals and connections between the 2. Please have him take a closer look so you stop making him look stupid. Or better yet let him know we are here to correct his oversight if he would like to join the forum and talk to us.

I'd also like to know what high end dealer tub I have been pushing. I like Nordic, Great Lakes and Emerald. These are value tubs priced between 3500-6000 bucks.

And the service that comes with a tub from a dealer is almost always top notch (pumps, seals and motors in stock) or crappy but Costco's service is almost always a pain for the customer.

[hottubdan]

Service and support do NOT come from Costco. If you get it you are getting it usually from an independent hired by the manufacturer of the tub.

[Roger]

Service and support do NOT come from Costco. If you get it you are getting it usually from an independent hired by the manufacturer of the tub.

And I know how I support these types of tubs!! "good enough of a repair for who it's for" It only needs to last a few more years then I will dispose of it. Pay me up front please and collect from the manufacturer yourself. To many independent have been burned after a Costco tub manufacturer leaves owing them tons of money.

[DK117]

Service and support do NOT come from Costco. If you get it you are getting it usually from an independent hired by the manufacturer of the tub.

And I know how I support these types of tubs!! "good enough of a repair for who it's for" It only needs to last a few more years then I will dispose of it. Pay me up front please and collect from the manufacturer yourself. To many independent have been burned after a Costco tub manufacturer leaves owing them tons of money.

Roger, while we disagree on a few things, but I generally respect your knowledge and integrity. But this post threw me for a loop. Are you telling me that if Costco/Strong calls you for a service call in Minnesota that you will perform a lesser repair than if D1/Hotsprings called you? Please clarify your post. That's a pretty damning statement right there.

DK117

[Roger]

Roger, while we disagree on a few things, but I generally respect your knowledge and integrity. But this post threw me for a loop. Are you telling me that if Costco/Strong calls you for a service call in Minnesota that you will perform a lesser repair than if D1/Hotsprings called you? Please clarify your post. That's a pretty damning statement right there.

DK117

Its easy to fix sub standerd with sub standerd. Look inside the equipment bay of a high end tub, neat clean and everything is packed in tight. D1 and Hot Spring pay a higher rate. Look inside any of the big box tubs it is unorginized, there are extra 45's and 90's scattered around with a crappy glue joints and all ya gota do is close the water flow leaving lines and joints any where and call it good enough. Strong has called, I get paid by customers who I do repair for, not Manufacturers/Box Stores. Call it damning if you'd like but it simply is easier to work on value tubs, but generaly you have to offer a discounted rate.

[DK117]

Roger, while we disagree on a few things, but I generally respect your knowledge and integrity. But this post threw me for a loop. Are you telling me that if Costco/Strong calls you for a service call in Minnesota that you will perform a lesser repair than if D1/Hotsprings called you? Please clarify your post. That's a pretty damning statement right there.

DK117

Its easy to fix sub standerd with sub standerd. Look inside the equipment bay of a high end tub, neat clean and everything is packed in tight. D1 and Hot Spring pay a higher rate. Look inside any of the big box tubs it is unorginized, there are extra 45's and 90's scattered around with a crappy glue joints and all ya gota do is close the water flow leaving lines and joints any where and call it good enough. Strong has called, I get paid by customers who I do repair for, not Manufacturers/Box Stores. Call it damning if you'd like but it simply is easier to work on value tubs, but generaly you have to offer a discounted rate.

I interpreted your first post as purposely short changing value tub repairs. Value tubs die in short order and value manufacturers don't pay their bills. OK, in your opinion and experience, little of which is with Strong. So I think/hope you clarified in the follow up post. You repair Kia's to Kia's standards and BMW's to BMW standards. I hope I'm interpreting that correctly, it sounds a lot better than screwing over value tub repair clients because of your opinion/experience.

DK117

[Roger]

I interpreted your first post as purposely short changing value tub repairs. Value tubs die in short order and value manufacturers don't pay their bills. OK, in your opinion and experience, little of which is with Strong. So I think/hope you clarified in the follow up post. You repair Kia's to Kia's standards and BMW's to BMW standards. I hope I'm interpreting that correctly, it sounds a lot better than screwing over value tub repair clients because of your opinion/experience.

DK117

I don't screw anybody, when I fix a tub I back it for as long as the part allows. When I replace a hot water heater for a customer I warranty my labor for as long as the warranty is on the heater (10 or more years). Because of my plumbing license, which I want to keep, I only do the highest quality work with what I have to work with. And that's the key, what I have to work with. I replace water heaters with a more expensive brand when my bid includes the heater (not available at box stores) and warranty accordingly. But if a customer wants a box store heater I will do those also because it's easy to make the plumbing joints outlast the heater. Our local box store is Menards they sell hot water heaters for 200-400 bucks. My DEALER for water heaters starts at 400 bucks. Double the cost for a longer warranty and a better more effecient heater. Just like hot tubs. Sinks, toilets, boilers, showers, copper pipe and fittings, PVC everything plumbing there is suffecient, better and best. I use the best whenever possible. It cost more but you get what you pay for. When suffecient is all that is in an equipment bay on a tub then suffecient is what I use. Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference. Just like those here who say the tubs available at box stores are just as good as those that cost almost twice as much. If you want to buy your own parts I will install them and warranty my labor, but not the parts.

[DK117]

I interpreted your first post as purposely short changing value tub repairs. Value tubs die in short order and value manufacturers don't pay their bills. OK, in your opinion and experience, little of which is with Strong. So I think/hope you clarified in the follow up post. You repair Kia's to Kia's standards and BMW's to BMW standards. I hope I'm interpreting that correctly, it sounds a lot better than screwing over value tub repair clients because of your opinion/experience.

DK117

I don't screw anybody, when I fix a tub I back it for as long as the part allows. When I replace a hot water heater for a customer I warranty my labor for as long as the warranty is on the heater (10 or more years). Because of my plumbing license, which I want to keep, I only do the highest quality work with what I have to work with. And that's the key, what I have to work with. I replace water heaters with a more expensive brand when my bid includes the heater (not available at box stores) and warranty accordingly. But if a customer wants a box store heater I will do those also because it's easy to make the plumbing joints outlast the heater. Our local box store is Menards they sell hot water heaters for 200-400 bucks. My DEALER for water heaters starts at 400 bucks. Double the cost for a longer warranty and a better more effecient heater. Just like hot tubs. Sinks, toilets, boilers, showers, copper pipe and fittings, PVC everything plumbing there is suffecient, better and best. I use the best whenever possible. It cost more but you get what you pay for. When suffecient is all that is in an equipment bay on a tub then suffecient is what I use. Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference. Just like those here who say the tubs available at box stores are just as good as those that cost almost twice as much. If you want to buy your own parts I will install them and warranty my labor, but not the parts.

Thanks for clarifying, I'm glad my initial read on the first post was mostly in error. And for what it's worth the PVC plumbing analogy resonates with me. I worked my way through college doing irrigation work (installation, repair, and yes digging lots of ditches.)

DK117

[hot_water]

I don't screw anybody...

...there is suffecient, better and best. I use the best whenever possible.

When suffecient is all that is in an equipment bay on a tub then suffecient is what I use. Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference.

So which is it? Do you use the best available, or do you just use "suffecient" (sic)? You've said you do both, but that's not possible. So which is it? If you ever use just "suffecient" (sic), then you cannot be truthful about using "the best whenever possible".

You claim don't screw anybody, but then you freely claim that you mark up the lowest grade parts more because, "yep, most customers don't know the difference". I see no problem in repairing a tub using the original equipment quality parts. But charging a higher markeup because the customer won't know? Hmmm. Sounds like a screwin' to me. You actually had a semi-decent backpedal going there until you offered up that gem.

I'm thinking that you must be a shill for Costco. Did they plant you here to convince potential buyers that the industry is composed of irrational types that they can't trust? That's gotta be it! Shame on you!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I don't screw anybody...

...there is suffecient, better and best. I use the best whenever possible.

When suffecient is all that is in an equipment bay on a tub then suffecient is what I use. Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference.

So which is it? Do you use the best available, or do you just use "suffecient" (sic)? You've said you do both, but that's not possible. So which is it? If you ever use just "suffecient" (sic), then you cannot be truthful about using "the best whenever possible".

You claim don't screw anybody, but then you freely claim that you mark up the lowest grade parts more because, "yep, most customers don't know the difference". I see no problem in repairing a tub using the original equipment quality parts. But charging a higher markeup because the customer won't know? Hmmm. Sounds like a screwin' to me. You actually had a semi-decent backpedal going there until you offered up that gem.

I'm thinking that you must be a shill for Costco. Did they plant you here to convince potential buyers that the industry is composed of irrational types that they can't trust? That's gotta be it! Shame on you!

When you're repairing spas for people part of your job is giving them a professional recommendation on the specifics of the repair, what options are available and what is "worth" doing, etc. One thing you strongly take into consideration is the normal life expectancy of the spa. On a quality made spa you may recommend something be fixed because you know the spa will last a long time while on another spa you may not recommend it because you know the spa may not outlast the fix. It’s kind of like triage for spas.

With some spas you may literally say “I would need to do X and Y to get it going at a cost of Z but I think you may run into more trouble in the next couple years with this and it may not be worth putting the $$ into”. Sometimes you just tell them fix and cost, it partly depends on what they’re asking of you but knowing Roger I’m sure he gives the customer a full diagnostic including using his crystal ball to factor in life expectancy and the “this is what I would do” recommendation.

[DK117]

When you're repairing spas for people part of your job is giving them a professional recommendation on the specifics of the repair, what options are available and what is "worth" doing, etc. One thing you strongly take into consideration is the normal life expectancy of the spa. On a quality made spa you may recommend something be fixed because you know the spa will last a long time while on another spa you may not recommend it because you know the spa may not outlast the fix. It’s kind of like triage for spas.

With some spas you may literally say “I would need to do X and Y to get it going at a cost of Z but I think you may run into more trouble in the next couple years with this and it may not be worth putting the $$ into”. Sometimes you just tell them fix and cost, it partly depends on what they’re asking of you but knowing Roger I’m sure he gives the customer a full diagnostic including using his crystal ball to factor in life expectancy and the “this is what I would do” recommendation.

I want to believe you guys. And I believe you believe you have everyone's best interest in mind. But what if your crystal ball is wrong? None of us know the life expectancy of a Strong. This line of diagnostic based upon opinion (however expert and experienced it might be) seems iffy based upon a relatively new to market product. I know you'll respond with your experience, but your experience is tainted, you generalize all Costco tubs as one in the same. My personal opinion is that this is a dicey line to walk. I'm not the expert, but I'd be pissed if I needed a repair and the tech in his due diligence decided my tub had a life expectancy of 4 more years and gave me a sub standard repair. This is sounding all too much like my old auto mechanic.

DK117

[spatech (the unreal one)]

When you're repairing spas for people part of your job is giving them a professional recommendation on the specifics of the repair, what options are available and what is "worth" doing, etc. One thing you strongly take into consideration is the normal life expectancy of the spa. On a quality made spa you may recommend something be fixed because you know the spa will last a long time while on another spa you may not recommend it because you know the spa may not outlast the fix. It’s kind of like triage for spas.

With some spas you may literally say “I would need to do X and Y to get it going at a cost of Z but I think you may run into more trouble in the next couple years with this and it may not be worth putting the $$ into”. Sometimes you just tell them fix and cost, it partly depends on what they’re asking of you but knowing Roger I’m sure he gives the customer a full diagnostic including using his crystal ball to factor in life expectancy and the “this is what I would do” recommendation.

I want to believe you guys. And I believe you believe you have everyone's best interest in mind. But what if your crystal ball is wrong? None of us know the life expectancy of a Strong. This line of diagnostic based upon opinion (however expert and experienced it might be) seems iffy based upon a relatively new to market product. I know you'll respond with your experience, but your experience is tainted, you generalize all Costco tubs as one in the same. My personal opinion is that this is a dicey line to walk. I'm not the expert, but I'd be pissed if I needed a repair and the tech in his due diligence decided my tub had a life expectancy of 4 more years and gave me a sub standard repair. This is sounding all too much like my old auto mechanic.

DK117

You'll get the repair done if you want it, my only point was that you may get an overall recommendation and part of it may be based upon a general assessment of the spa and its life expectancy. A repair person may say something like "If it were my spa I'd ..." but if you respond with "I understand but I'll take the chance, go ahead and repair it" you'll get the repair.

In reality the work will be the same whether repairing a tear in the Mona Lisa or a rip in a Leroy Neiman photocopy. The repair person just wants to satisfy the customer and get fairly compensated. Some will certainly want to help the costomer make an informed decision by adding their professional assessment but in the end they'll do what the custoemr wants.

[Roger]

You'll get the repair done if you want it, my only point was that you may get an overall recommendation and part of it may be based upon a general assessment of the spa and its life expectancy. A repair person may say something like "If it were my spa I'd ..." but if you respond with "I understand but I'll take the chance, go ahead and repair it" you'll get the repair.

In reality the work will be the same whether repairing a tear in the Mona Lisa or a rip in a Leroy Neiman photocopy. The repair person just wants to satisfy the customer and get fairly compensated. Some will certainly want to help the costomer make an informed decision by adding their professional assessment but in the end they'll do what the custoemr wants.

LOL...this is all to funny. I could say whatever I wanted to a customer and they believe me!!! But, alas......I wouldn't have customers for long or repeat customers like I do now. Generaly speaking I DO treat bargin tub purchasers differently because...yep they are cheap...I mean frugal. PVC, pumps and neatness of repairs to increase speed so as not to charge for 2 hours versus 1.5. Yep it happens I do cheap out on repairs based on my feel for the customer. There I said it OMG now I will burn in hell!!

No....wait.....if they want to find another tech who will do more for less then I can supply a phone book! I have the advantage of this being a second job. I can diognos as good or better than the best. Plus I offer freeze protection and thaw services. I turn down work every week, you know why? Because the job simply is not worth my time. I'll take the good easy ones and bargin tubs are just that, good and easy as long as the CUSTOMER knows he will pay me. I am no ones middle man. And guess what, I have had customers pay me and get short changed 10-15 even 20 bucks per hour from the manufacturer because that's "their tech rate" well its not mine!

[hot_water]

>> "Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference."

Roger, those are your words above. How about you explain why this is not screwing the customer, rather than let spatech change the subject away to some generalized blah-blah about making recommendations.

Do you really do this, yes or no? And in your esteemed judgement, is it screwing the customer, yes or no?

I'm really looking forward to your answer.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

>> "Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference."

Roger, those are your words above. How about you explain why this is not screwing the customer, rather than let spatech change the subject away to some generalized blah-blah about making recommendations.

Do you really do this, yes or no? And in your esteemed judgement, is it screwing the customer, yes or no?

I'm really looking forward to your answer.

LOL, you caught on to my plan I see!

[hot_water]

Roger, I'm still waiting for your answer. I figure you're trying to wordsmith a non-damning response, which I'm sure I will enjoy. But in any case, it really boils down to the yes/no questions.

Let's consider another issue here, too. You say that the Costco tub won't last long. Ok. I have commented in the past that personally I believe that the SHELL is the most important element of the tub. YOU have come back to argue with me and said that you have seen, in your tons of experience, only an insignificant number of fatal shell problems. OK, I accept that this is your experience. I still think the shell is important, but let's go with your position.

Now, the Costco/Strong spa has a decent shell, made of continuous cast acrylic with an acrylobond backing, one of the industry standard manufacturing methods. There has been, to my knowledge, not one single report of a shell problem from Costco/Strong owners. If they had shell quality problems, there would, statistically, be at least a few reports of problems since the units have been in service for more than a year. So while we can't conclude that the shell will last forever, we also have NO evidence or reason to believe that it will NOT be as long-lasting as those that you've seen and report as almost never a problem.

This is important because a seriously poor shell with chronic problems would be a good reason to use your sawzall to cut up a spa. It's not very practical to change out a shell.

The Costco/Strong cabinet is rotationally-molded out of polyethylene. The pump mounting platforms are made of composite decking. On mine, the screws are all stainless steel. So with this cabinet, there is no wood to rot or plain steel to rust. The factory, in addition to the Costco warranty, offers a lifetime replacement warranty on the cabinet of Strong spas.

Again, important because a rotten cabinet is a good reason to scrap a spa. Not really an issue with Strong's, though.

With me so far?

This leaves the pumps, controller,heater, plumbing, jets, lights and various valves. That's all that's in a spa. I won't include the cover because that is an item that gets replaced periodically on any spa.

Now, the pumps in my Strong are Waterway Executive 56 pumps, with AO Smith motors. Not the best, but decent. They can easily be replaced like for like, or a Customer or tech could substitute another one if they wanted an upgrade (as long as it was electrically compatible with the Balboa... which supports 12A max pump). The pump inlet and outlet are common sizes.

The controller is a Balboa. Again, it's a common, generic controller considered to be of good quality. YOU have argued in the past that Balboa provides cheap controllers to the OEMs like Strong, but I and others on this board have called Balboa and been told in no uncertain terms that this isn't true, al thier VS controllers are the same. Moreover, it doesn't make much sense that they would do provide cheaper ones to OEMS as it wouldn't save money, as those familiar with electronics manufacturing are well aware.

The heater is also Balboa. It is their standard heater. It is not their top of the line titanium heater. If a heater replacement is needed, you can replace it like-for-like, or you could install the titanium one. Owner's choice.

There have been no instances of PVC failures reported by any owners here. So unless you have some specific reason to trash the PVC, you have no reason to assume that the quality is sub-par.

BTW, the Strong does include gate valves. Some other manufacturers omit these, making service a bit less convenient.

The layout and service access of the Strong is very good, with access panels on every side. This makes it easy and therefore cheap to repair. As an owner, I can tell you that it is not a mess in there. I wouldn't want it in my living room, but there are not 45s and 90s everywhere as you suggest. Everything is neat and readily accessible. Honestly, your comments on this are just blah-blah-blah.

The clear tubing runs to the jets is not the more expensive reinforced stuff you see in some other brands. But, we haven't seen a single case of failure. It's not the best, and the tubing may well have a shorter lifetime. If it sprung a leak, a tech or owner could certainly replace it like-for like OR replace it with better stuff. No big deal. The lights are standard stuff, and so are the valves. Not the best, to be sure... but not chinese imported junk, and easy to replace right out of the Waterway catalog. The jets are also Waterway. They aren't the fanciest - in fact they are simple jets. But the quality is fine and they can be fixed/replaced/upgraded easily.

My point is that there is NO REASON to assume that the Costco/Strong will have a short lifetime. None! The shell, by your argument, won't be a problem... the cabinet has a lifetime warranty and is not subject to rot or rust. The parts are all readily replaceable with STANDARD STUFF from established hot tub manufacturers, or could be upgraded easily if desired. The thing has access panels on all sides, is a dirt-simple design, and is not foam-filled, so it is easy to repair.

So, the argument that you base your repair recommendations on the expected lifetime of the spa makes, like virtually all of your arguments, no sense. Yet you refer to owner's research as "stupid" and "doo-doo"?!?! The only reason I can see for sawing up a Costco Strong is if the owner decides that they don't really use the spa very much and want it out of their yard. We both know that while some of us continue to enjoy our spas, it often happens that the novelty wears off for many people and they get tired of their toys and the maintenance. When the thing breaks and needs several hundred bucks worth of repairs, they decide to ditch it. This is a decision that is much easier to reach when you are looking at a spa you paid $4800 for rather than one you paid $8-10k for. Which is actually also a good reason NOT to spend $8-10k.

Really... I seldom post here anymore because basically people like you are pointless to reason with. Your arguments are so absurd, baseless and transparent in most cases that I'm sure you sell a lot of Costco spas all by yourself. Those that believe you, well, I would never say that dealer spas aren't the right choice for many buyers - they are. But I will say that anyone that believes YOUR "rationale"... well, I wouldn't be asking that person for the benefit of THEIR judgement on anything!

BTW, I am not a spa expert. I have owned two. I am a mechanical engineer with 32 years of experience. I hold patents in thermal control of electronics, and have worked on aircraft, spacecraft, computers, hydraulics and wide variety of various machines.. Not to try to impress anyone because basically who cares... I don't... only to point out that it is pretty easy for someone that has a background in equipment to see right through your baloney.

There are many others that are genuinely useful, and while some of them share your opinion and obviously want buyers to patronize traditional spa dealers, I give them a lot of credit for at least trying to temper their arguments. Some are better at this than others, but none even approach your standard of BS.

I encourage you to respond, because your posts are traditionally much more effective at making my points than my own posts.

[Roger]

>> "Quite frankly I make a higher mark up on suffecient parts because........yep most customers don't know the difference."

Roger, those are your words above. How about you explain why this is not screwing the customer, rather than let spatech change the subject away to some generalized blah-blah about making recommendations.

Do you really do this, yes or no? And in your esteemed judgement, is it screwing the customer, yes or no?

I'm really looking forward to your answer.

Wow you have a lot of time to type while I am in bed, up at 4AM and off to work my magic for 11 hours today. Your also quite impatient! To answer your question YES. I can buy PVC, Pumps, Fittings and all kinds of stuff cheaper than my customers because of the volume I purchase and because of my hard work negotiating with my vendors so YES I charge more mark up on cheaper material than I do for more expensive high quality material. They are welcome to supply their own if they believe they can get it cheaper. And NO it is not screwing the customer. Because....yes even after an inflated mark up I can still sell it cheaper than they can get it for!!!! Simple.

OK now I will go read your other post...wheeeew hope I can make it through it!!

Oh and if their is a response required I have to go evaluate a tub tonight and there is some beer involved, then work tomorrow so it could be a day or so before I respond if it's that important to you!!

[Roger]

Roger, I'm still waiting for your answer. I figure you're trying to wordsmith a non-damning response, which I'm sure I will enjoy. But in any case, it really boils down to the yes/no questions.

Let's consider another issue here, too. You say that the Costco tub won't last long. Ok. I have commented in the past that personally I believe that the SHELL is the most important element of the tub. YOU have come back to argue with me and said that you have seen, in your tons of experience, only an insignificant number of fatal shell problems. OK, I accept that this is your experience. I still think the shell is important, but let's go with your position.

Now, the Costco/Strong spa has a decent shell, made of continuous cast acrylic with an acrylobond backing, one of the industry standard manufacturing methods. There has been, to my knowledge, not one single report of a shell problem from Costco/Strong owners. If they had shell quality problems, there would, statistically, be at least a few reports of problems since the units have been in service for more than a year. So while we can't conclude that the shell will last forever, we also have NO evidence or reason to believe that it will NOT be as long-lasting as those that you've seen and report as almost never a problem.

This is important because a seriously poor shell with chronic problems would be a good reason to use your sawzall to cut up a spa. It's not very practical to change out a shell.

The Costco/Strong cabinet is rotationally-molded out of polyethylene. The pump mounting platforms are made of composite decking. On mine, the screws are all stainless steel. So with this cabinet, there is no wood to rot or plain steel to rust. The factory, in addition to the Costco warranty, offers a lifetime replacement warranty on the cabinet of Strong spas.

Again, important because a rotten cabinet is a good reason to scrap a spa. Not really an issue with Strong's, though.

With me so far?

This leaves the pumps, controller,heater, plumbing, jets, lights and various valves. That's all that's in a spa. I won't include the cover because that is an item that gets replaced periodically on any spa.

Now, the pumps in my Strong are Waterway Executive 56 pumps, with AO Smith motors. Not the best, but decent. They can easily be replaced like for like, or a Customer or tech could substitute another one if they wanted an upgrade (as long as it was electrically compatible with the Balboa... which supports 12A max pump). The pump inlet and outlet are common sizes.

The controller is a Balboa. Again, it's a common, generic controller considered to be of good quality. YOU have argued in the past that Balboa provides cheap controllers to the OEMs like Strong, but I and others on this board have called Balboa and been told in no uncertain terms that this isn't true, al thier VS controllers are the same. Moreover, it doesn't make much sense that they would do provide cheaper ones to OEMS as it wouldn't save money, as those familiar with electronics manufacturing are well aware.

The heater is also Balboa. It is their standard heater. It is not their top of the line titanium heater. If a heater replacement is needed, you can replace it like-for-like, or you could install the titanium one. Owner's choice.

There have been no instances of PVC failures reported by any owners here. So unless you have some specific reason to trash the PVC, you have no reason to assume that the quality is sub-par.

BTW, the Strong does include gate valves. Some other manufacturers omit these, making service a bit less convenient.

The layout and service access of the Strong is very good, with access panels on every side. This makes it easy and therefore cheap to repair. As an owner, I can tell you that it is not a mess in there. I wouldn't want it in my living room, but there are not 45s and 90s everywhere as you suggest. Everything is neat and readily accessible. Honestly, your comments on this are just blah-blah-blah.

The clear tubing runs to the jets is not the more expensive reinforced stuff you see in some other brands. But, we haven't seen a single case of failure. It's not the best, and the tubing may well have a shorter lifetime. If it sprung a leak, a tech or owner could certainly replace it like-for like OR replace it with better stuff. No big deal. The lights are standard stuff, and so are the valves. Not the best, to be sure... but not chinese imported junk, and easy to replace right out of the Waterway catalog. The jets are also Waterway. They aren't the fanciest - in fact they are simple jets. But the quality is fine and they can be fixed/replaced/upgraded easily.

My point is that there is NO REASON to assume that the Costco/Strong will have a short lifetime. None! The shell, by your argument, won't be a problem... the cabinet has a lifetime warranty and is not subject to rot or rust. The parts are all readily replaceable with STANDARD STUFF from established hot tub manufacturers, or could be upgraded easily if desired. The thing has access panels on all sides, is a dirt-simple design, and is not foam-filled, so it is easy to repair.

So, the argument that you base your repair recommendations on the expected lifetime of the spa makes, like virtually all of your arguments, no sense. Yet you refer to owner's research as "stupid" and "doo-doo"?!?! The only reason I can see for sawing up a Costco Strong is if the owner decides that they don't really use the spa very much and want it out of their yard. We both know that while some of us continue to enjoy our spas, it often happens that the novelty wears off for many people and they get tired of their toys and the maintenance. When the thing breaks and needs several hundred bucks worth of repairs, they decide to ditch it. This is a decision that is much easier to reach when you are looking at a spa you paid $4800 for rather than one you paid $8-10k for. Which is actually also a good reason NOT to spend $8-10k.

Really... I seldom post here anymore because basically people like you are pointless to reason with. Your arguments are so absurd, baseless and transparent in most cases that I'm sure you sell a lot of Costco spas all by yourself. Those that believe you, well, I would never say that dealer spas aren't the right choice for many buyers - they are. But I will say that anyone that believes YOUR "rationale"... well, I wouldn't be asking that person for the benefit of THEIR judgement on anything!

BTW, I am not a spa expert. I have owned two. I am a mechanical engineer with 32 years of experience. I hold patents in thermal control of electronics, and have worked on aircraft, spacecraft, computers, hydraulics and wide variety of various machines.. Not to try to impress anyone because basically who cares... I don't... only to point out that it is pretty easy for someone that has a background in equipment to see right through your baloney.

There are many others that are genuinely useful, and while some of them share your opinion and obviously want buyers to patronize traditional spa dealers, I give them a lot of credit for at least trying to temper their arguments. Some are better at this than others, but none even approach your standard of BS.

I encourage you to respond, because your posts are traditionally much more effective at making my points than my own posts.

OK I have 2 questions for you on this post yes or no answers will do. I did it for you now you can do it for me. Is the hydrotherapy of the Strong spa at 4800 bucks as good as the hydrotherapy on the 7500 dollar Dimension One Nautilis? And second is the fit and finish of all parts of the tub as good on the Strong as it is on the D1. And if you answer no to either one of these questions is it likely that a potential hot tub lover will be less than satisfied with there tubbing experience and decide that the life style is not for them when it may be, but they have experienced mediocre or less and really don't know what true hydrotherapy is and hot tub ownership is like?

Sorry I guess I have 3

[hot_water]

OK I have 2 questions for you on this post yes or no answers will do. I did it for you now you can do it for me. Is the hydrotherapy of the Strong spa at 4800 bucks as good as the hydrotherapy on the 7500 dollar Dimension One Nautilis? And second is the fit and finish of all parts of the tub as good on the Strong as it is on the D1. And if you answer no to either one of these questions is it likely that a potential hot tub lover will be less than satisfied with there tubbing experience and decide that the life style is not for them when it may be, but they have experienced mediocre or less and really don't know what true hydrotherapy is and hot tub ownership is like?

Sorry I guess I have 3

Here are your answers:

>> "Is the hydrotherapy of the Strong spa at 4800 bucks as good as the hydrotherapy on the 7500 dollar Dimension One Nautilis?"

I do not know. I don't believe it helps anyone to comment on things that I have no information on. I looked at the D1 before buying my first tub and it wasn't of any interest to me. I advise everyone to research all potential spa purchases carefully, and that would include D1.

>> "And second is the fit and finish of all parts of the tub as good on the Strong as it is on the D1."

Again, I do not know. See the comment attached to the first answer.

As for your third question...consistent with your posts, it is completely off point. The discussion you and I are having is not about a user selecting a tub that they like. I think everyone should do precisely that. If a D1 is what they like, then that is the correct choice. The rationale for them deciding that they enjoy tubbing would be speculation of the highest order, and serves no purpose I can see. I will answer your inane question, though: Yes, there exists the "potential" that a D1 may be so to a user's liking that they will continue to enjoy the pastime of tubbing. There is also the "potential" that the high cost will contribute to the disillusionment and increase the disappointment level for them. Or they may decide that a quality tub is outside their financial means and take a ski vacation with the money. As usual, your thread of logic leads to absolutely nothing useful to anyone.

The issues I have raised involve your screwing your customers. Your answer was not responsive, although creative. I believe that despite your best effort to get out of the corner you created, you have admitted that you readily charge higher material markups to people with lower grade spas. This despite your intimation, in your earlier post, that you act in the best interest of your customer by recommending only those repairs and the level of parts that are best suited to their spa and best suit their frugal nature. Now, you have no credibility with me in the first place, but I do so enjoy handing you the shovel with which you dig your own hole. I firmly believe that you will write anything to make your point. You should try reading some of it, though. That aside, in my book if I found out that you had done that to me, I would consider myself screwed and you would never get another call from me or anyone I know. I seldom call repair people for anything... but I do feel sorry for the persons that do not have mechanical aptitude, need help, and get someone like you. I owned a business and I always tried to work within the framework the Customer needed to give him the best value I could... not to take advantage because I could, and they wouldn't know the difference. You should be ashamed.

It is also interesting that you had no comments on the issue of exactly what it is about the Strong product that leads you try so fervently to convince people that it will be good for a few years, and probably not make it to 5 or 6. Interesting, but not surprising. You have no reasons. You and I have been down this road before on this and other subjects. Next, we are likely to be treated to your chest-pounding assertion that you've been repairing tubs for a long time and have seen thousands of them, so why should you have to prove anything.

I'll save you the trouble. You don't have to prove anything. Beyond what you've already proven, that is.

[DaveR]

I've been watching the Strong/D1 conversations so I had to ask my nephew on his opinion as his company services about 250-300 tubs weekly and does 1 time repairs maybe another 20 and have had many of the same cutomers for 10+ years. They keep very detailed records. His customer base ranges from people who probably really can't afford a tub, but have one, to people that have olympic sized outdoor pools they keep open all winter, even when it's -20.

The is based on 15 years experience servicing tub & pools in MN.

65-70% of customers that get discount tubs either upgrade or discontinue use at about 3 years. Most of the ones that upgraded did so after being in a friends tub. The rate that people discontinue use of high end brands within 3 years is about 1/2 as often.

The repair costs on (non-lemons) the Strong and others are about on par with high end brands year 1 and 2, then they begin to have higher repair rates. He said every brand has a lemon once in a while but the discount brands have nearly double the lemon rate.

Quite a bit of their new business each year comes from botched repairs by other techs. He felt the discount brands get hit by this more than the major brands.

Regardless of brand there are almost equal number of people that quit using their tub after the kids move out to those that buy their first tub after the kids move out. I thought that was kind of interesting.

Dave

[Roger]

OK I have 2 questions for you on this post yes or no answers will do. I did it for you now you can do it for me. Is the hydrotherapy of the Strong spa at 4800 bucks as good as the hydrotherapy on the 7500 dollar Dimension One Nautilis? And second is the fit and finish of all parts of the tub as good on the Strong as it is on the D1. And if you answer no to either one of these questions is it likely that a potential hot tub lover will be less than satisfied with there tubbing experience and decide that the life style is not for them when it may be, but they have experienced mediocre or less and really don't know what true hydrotherapy is and hot tub ownership is like?

Sorry I guess I have 3

Here are your answers:

>> "Is the hydrotherapy of the Strong spa at 4800 bucks as good as the hydrotherapy on the 7500 dollar Dimension One Nautilis?"

I do not know. I don't believe it helps anyone to comment on things that I have no information on. I looked at the D1 before buying my first tub and it wasn't of any interest to me. I advise everyone to research all potential spa purchases carefully, and that would include D1.

>> "And second is the fit and finish of all parts of the tub as good on the Strong as it is on the D1."

Again, I do not know. See the comment attached to the first answer.

As for your third question...consistent with your posts, it is completely off point. The discussion you and I are having is not about a user selecting a tub that they like. I think everyone should do precisely that. If a D1 is what they like, then that is the correct choice. The rationale for them deciding that they enjoy tubbing would be speculation of the highest order, and serves no purpose I can see. I will answer your inane question, though: Yes, there exists the "potential" that a D1 may be so to a user's liking that they will continue to enjoy the pastime of tubbing. There is also the "potential" that the high cost will contribute to the disillusionment and increase the disappointment level for them. Or they may decide that a quality tub is outside their financial means and take a ski vacation with the money. As usual, your thread of logic leads to absolutely nothing useful to anyone.

The issues I have raised involve your screwing your customers. Your answer was not responsive, although creative. I believe that despite your best effort to get out of the corner you created, you have admitted that you readily charge higher material markups to people with lower grade spas. This despite your intimation, in your earlier post, that you act in the best interest of your customer by recommending only those repairs and the level of parts that are best suited to their spa and best suit their frugal nature. Now, you have no credibility with me in the first place, but I do so enjoy handing you the shovel with which you dig your own hole. I firmly believe that you will write anything to make your point. You should try reading some of it, though. That aside, in my book if I found out that you had done that to me, I would consider myself screwed and you would never get another call from me or anyone I know. I seldom call repair people for anything... but I do feel sorry for the persons that do not have mechanical aptitude, need help, and get someone like you. I owned a business and I always tried to work within the framework the Customer needed to give him the best value I could... not to take advantage because I could, and they wouldn't know the difference. You should be ashamed.

It is also interesting that you had no comments on the issue of exactly what it is about the Strong product that leads you try so fervently to convince people that it will be good for a few years, and probably not make it to 5 or 6. Interesting, but not surprising. You have no reasons. You and I have been down this road before on this and other subjects. Next, we are likely to be treated to your chest-pounding assertion that you've been repairing tubs for a long time and have seen thousands of them, so why should you have to prove anything.

I'll save you the trouble. You don't have to prove anything. Beyond what you've already proven, that is.

If figures!! I flat out answered your question with a straight up answer and you are not cabable of that. Who is side stepping? It serves no purpose for you to say the Strong hydrotherapy experience sucks, is that it? But one thing the Strong does is surround you with hot water. OK cool that's hot tubbing. Maybe for you.

I guess engineers feel swirling hot water is the same no matter what. That is what you said you did for a living right? Drive trains?