Health Question

[thecanuck22]

I am the 'water boy' for our dealership, recently appointed. We started offering a monthly, biweekly or weekly hot tub balance/sanitize.

I just finished doing one new customers tub, honestly the water was clear when i arrived. I checked for pH and it was high, balanced that. Added Borate and balanced that. Added the stain/scale and clarifier. Next was the chlorine...... 1 capful, nada. 2 capfulls nada. 5 capfulls..... I ended up adding an entire bottle, 700g, then on the strip it read between 5 and 10, added some MSP.

my question, the fumes coming from that tub kinda made me noxious afterwards. what are the health issues surrounding what I am doing?

After i have finished that initial visit, it is very easy, but that first one is a killer and i do not want to end up with some weird infection.

Thanks in advance.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I am the 'water boy' for our dealership, recently appointed. We started offering a monthly, biweekly or weekly hot tub balance/sanitize.

I just finished doing one new customers tub, honestly the water was clear when i arrived. I checked for pH and it was high, balanced that. Added Borate and balanced that. Added the stain/scale and clarifier. Next was the chlorine...... 1 capful, nada. 2 capfulls nada. 5 capfulls..... I ended up adding an entire bottle, 700g, then on the strip it read between 5 and 10, added some MSP.

my question, the fumes coming from that tub kinda made me noxious afterwards. what are the health issues surrounding what I am doing?

After i have finished that initial visit, it is very easy, but that first one is a killer and i do not want to end up with some weird infection.

Thanks in advance.

700 grams of chlorine in a hot tub? How many gallons? If it was dichlor in 500 gallons, then the chlorine level would have gone to 205 ppm, the cyanuric acid would have gone to 186 ppm and the pH would have gone very low.

If it was lithium hypochlorite in 500 gallons, the chlorine would have gone to 130 ppm.

You need to get a much better education about chemistry, and a proper test kit, before you add any more chemicals to anyone's hot tub. The health issues for you and the customers are very serious.

What did you add for borates?

What was the chlorine that you used?

How many gallons was the tub?

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634

[thecanuck22]

thank-you for your reply quantum, although you never answered my question.

I assure you I have a VERY SOLID grasp on water chemistry, all pool season i have been at TFP, I have owned my own hot tub and pool for over 6 years now, I am posting here now because the Spa forum over there sucks honestly. I did not create this post to discuss chemistry, i posted it asking about health issues.

I fully realize ALL the ramifications of what i added to this gentlmans tub, but i could also not care any less.

I am asking about health concerns. Putting that much chlorine in a tub and having it not register must mean something pretty nasty is going on in there?

Please elaborate on the very serious health concerns you mentioned.

Thank-you.

[chem geek]

I looked at the Spas and Hot Tubs forum at TFP and didn't see any post from you. I check that forum periodically and answer questions that I can handle.

When spas are new, they are usually wet-tested, but though the spa is then drained, the pipes are not usually blown out so there is water left in them. This allows for bacteria to form biofilms. This is why one should initially do a decontamination procedure which is referred to in Using Chlorine in a Spa that refers to this post from Hillbilly Hot Tub describing the procedure.

In your particular situation, there may have additionally been other things in the spa such as some leftover organic chemicals of some sort. The first fill of a spa usually doesn't last as long, even if you do a decontamination. The chlorine demand will be higher and the water will "go bad" sooner. Basically, the junk in the spa that chlorine can react with can take some time, but once it's gone the spa will be good with the Dichlor-then-bleach method for quite a while (depending on bather load).

As for what you were smelling, I would assume that it might have been chloramines, probably monochloramine, dichloramine and nitrogen trichloride. The latter is the most volatile and irritating even at low concentrations. It usually won't form very much at lower concentrations of chlorine, so with CYA in the water, but at high chlorine concentrations and especially if the pH is lower, it can be formed in larger quantities. I'm not clear on what the chlorine product was that you used -- was it Dichlor or was it lithium hypochlorite?

As for health effects, you don't want to be breathing the chloramines, especially nitrogen trichloride at higher concentrations, for very long. Prolonged exposure is associated with potential damage to the lungs (see this link). At a minimum, you can have eye, nasal and throat symptoms (see this link). There is some controversy over whether it can increase the rate of asthma, especially in children (see this link and this link). Basically, if you are smelling noxious fumes, get out of that area -- the good news is that you can smell them readily. When adding high doses of chlorine, make sure the area is well-ventilated (and, of course, keep the cover off of the spa). Your single bad experience is something you will likely recover from, but I would avoid making this a habit. If you need to do a decontamination procedure, start ventilating the room first, then add the chlorine in a large dose with the pump and jets running as described in the procedure and then leave the room.

Richard

[quantumchromodynamics]

thank-you for your reply quantum, although you never answered my question.

I assure you I have a VERY SOLID grasp on water chemistry, all pool season i have been at TFP, I have owned my own hot tub and pool for over 6 years now, I am posting here now because the Spa forum over there sucks honestly. I did not create this post to discuss chemistry, i posted it asking about health issues.

I fully realize ALL the ramifications of what i added to this gentlmans tub, but i could also not care any less.

I am asking about health concerns. Putting that much chlorine in a tub and having it not register must mean something pretty nasty is going on in there?

Please elaborate on the very serious health concerns you mentioned.

Thank-you.

I really didn't mean to be rude or harsh. As a professional, you need to make sure that you are properly educated and equipped to do your job properly. Adding 1.5 pounds of chlorine to a hot tub is not something a qualified professional would do. You are putting people's health and safety at risk, and you really don't care.

Every year I see stories about people ending up in the Emergency Room from mixing chemicals and creating explosions, and clouds of toxic gas. This happens because they are unqualified to be handling chemicals.

Besides the chloramines that chem geek mentioned, you could also create chlorine gas. Furthermore, nitrogen trichloride can be highly explosive and very dangerous.

It is not likely that you would get any type of infection from what you're doing.

I am especially troubled about this statement that you made:

I fully realize ALL the ramifications of what i added to this gentlmans tub, but i could also not care any less.

That's quite a pathetic attitude for anyone to have. How would you like it if the professionals serving you had the same attitude? I stand by my statement that you should not be handling chemicals until you are better educated and have a proper test kit, not strips.

[thecanuck22]

That's quite a pathetic attitude for anyone to have. How would you like it if the professionals serving you had the same attitude? I stand by my statement that you should not be handling chemicals until you are better educated and have a proper test kit, not strips.

Excuse me? wow your a gem eh?

You have absolutly no clue about the tub owner and their 'troubled past'. No I dont care because they DONT CARE!!!!! I was doing what i was told. end of story. he asked for something and he was getting exactly what he asked for. Being righteous is not something i am allowed sometimes, in case you missed it, i am an EMPLOYEE. If you care to really have the entire long drawn out story, then by all means pm me, i would rather not dwell on the shear number of complete idiots that appear to be breathing our air or sharing their intelligence with others.....

My only concern was MY HEALTH, not some douche bags hot tub....like i said, I FULLY REALIZE ALL THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHAT I ADDED TO THIS GENTLEMANS HOT TUB, BUT COULD ALSO NOT CARE LESS.

I appreciate the reply/links Richard, and I didnt post over their because their seems to be more traffic on the hot tub side here. I also wanted to check this place out.

I will go home now...

[quantumchromodynamics]

You have absolutly no clue about the tub owner and their 'troubled past'. No I dont care because they DONT CARE!!!!! I was doing what i was told. end of story. he asked for something and he was getting exactly what he asked for. Being righteous is not something i am allowed sometimes, in case you missed it, i am an EMPLOYEE. If you care to really have the entire long drawn out story, then by all means pm me, i would rather not dwell on the shear number of complete idiots that appear to be breathing our air or sharing their intelligence with others.....

My only concern was MY HEALTH, not some douche bags hot tub....like i said, I FULLY REALIZE ALL THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHAT I ADDED TO THIS GENTLEMANS HOT TUB, BUT COULD ALSO NOT CARE LESS.

all pool season i have been at TFP

What is the number one bit of advice given at TFP?

Get a good FAS-DPD test kit!

How many times have you seen this advice given? Yet you show up with test strips. If you had a proper test kit, you could have tested for Free and Combined chlorine. Where did you think all of that chlorine was going?

Unless the tub was full of a reducing agent, such as sodium thiosulfate or hydrogen peroxide, the chlorine would not disappear that quickly.

If you show up at a customer's house, you need to do a professional job, no matter what. If you cannot do that, stay home. You are the kind of person who makes many pool and hot tub owners think that most service people are ignorant, apathetic idiots.

he was getting exactly what he asked for.

The customer asked you to add so much chlorine to his tub that it would give off toxic fumes that would make everyone sick? Wow, that's an unusual request. Was he happy with how toxic his hot tub was when you left?

[thecanuck22]

I showed up with test strips? really? you were there? lol, i dont know what your problem is quantum but its your problem not mine.

its funny how you can jump to so many conclusions about the 'kind of person' i am based on the 3 or 4 posts i have, your good.

good luck quantum.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I showed up with test strips? really? you were there?

Read your first post.

then on the strip it read between 5 and 10

[thecanuck22]

then i guess you must be jealous that you dont know how to use a strip? You have been brainwashed to believe that their is only one way to test water accuratley enough to do your job, if in fact this is your job. I would put me against you in the field balancing water for actual people, AND talking to them, all day long, i would be far more efficient and far more profitable, you would be too concerned with your righteous attitude.....

[BigDfromTN]

Wow.

This thread went south in a hurry!!!!

It also makes me glad I do my own water chemistry!

[chem geek]

Yes, this went off topic. As for test strips, there's a thread about this here at TFP where I've got a chart comparing the resolution of the two methods (for residential test strip kits; not those read by a colorimeter) and what they can and cannot test (CH, for example). I'm talking specifically about test strips read visually comparing to a standard.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I ended up adding an entire bottle, 700g, then on the strip it read between 5 and 10

thecanuck22 added over 100 ppm of chlorine and only measured 5 to 10 ppm using test strips. That's a pretty good indication of the reliability of strips.

[hottublady]

his "topic" is hilarous... bad... but hilarous

[Pool Clown]

I am the 'water boy' for our dealership, recently appointed. We started offering a monthly, biweekly or weekly hot tub balance/sanitize.

I just finished doing one new customers tub, honestly the water was clear when i arrived. I checked for pH and it was high, balanced that. Added Borate and balanced that. Added the stain/scale and clarifier. Next was the chlorine...... 1 capful, nada. 2 capfulls nada. 5 capfulls..... I ended up adding an entire bottle, 700g, then on the strip it read between 5 and 10, added some MSP.

my question, the fumes coming from that tub kinda made me noxious afterwards. what are the health issues surrounding what I am doing?

After i have finished that initial visit, it is very easy, but that first one is a killer and i do not want to end up with some weird infection.

Thanks in advance.

Canuck, in your trusting that you have a firm grasp on chemistry, and trusting of your test strip(s) (no chlorine showing), the fumes you smelled must not be Cl, yes?

So the only way to advise you about the smell is to figure out what the smell was. Can you describe the smell?

And, What was the thought process of going from 5 cap fulls, to a whole gallon? Having a grasp on water chemistry, why would you go much past a quart, no matter what the customer told you to do?

Even though the customer told you (i guess) to put more in, you should have told him you won't, because doing that made YOU liable for anything that may happen to him regardless of what he told, or asked you to do.

Perhaps your employer should supply his "water guys" with a 4 in 1 test kit(at least) as a back up, in the event you get skewed readings from the strips.

[waterbear]

The fact that some test strips can bleach out like DPD has been overloooked. If you are dumping in that much chlorine the only reilabie test that is specifically for pools and spas would be OTO but the color would be way off scale! Then again, anyone who is supposed to be 'professioanl' ans has an attitude like the one the OP has is a a jerk and probably has little knowledge of what they are doing.