Spa Shopping

[reeffreak]

Sure they have. You're talking about a $5-15k discretionary purchase in the worst economy in decades. When folks open their wallet, it's a choice between paying down debt, a couple of vacations, a boat, new patio furniture, etc. etc. Some people won't even set foot in a HT showroom because the industry reputation precedes it. We only did it because it was either HT or pool, and I really wasn't in the mood to drop $40k right now on something that you can't rip out and sell on CL. Kept the kids happy.

My house will need some new windows soon. Plenty of showrooms out there that specialize in this work, but I won't step foot in one b/c the risks of being taken are just about 100%. I get the sense that's what just happened with the OP- he gave up. So we saved one from Costco. Woo Hoo- way to go!

Who has accommodated with the same quality? If you think Costco has your wrong. Or your level of quality is lower than most.

Roger, you completely missed the point. If folks have $5-15k to blow on a toy, a hot tub would be nice. Or maybe a motorcycle, or Disney vacation, or a boat or ????. The OP made his point clear: he is about to give up.

So, let's review the basics: To get a sale, you (1) have to get them in the door, and (2) have to keep them there. If you lose on either #1 or #2, it doesn't matter if they went to Costco, the Harley shop or Bass Pro. The HT dealer doesn't eat.

As a customer, I can think of a lot of real nice stuff to get for $5-15k. So does every other customer that walks through the door. Turn 'em off with the shenanigans and they'll move on (if they ever even show up).. It has nothing- repeat- NOTHING to do with what hot tub Costco may or may not sell.

[Roger]

Sure they have. You're talking about a $5-15k discretionary purchase in the worst economy in decades. When folks open their wallet, it's a choice between paying down debt, a couple of vacations, a boat, new patio furniture, etc. etc. Some people won't even set foot in a HT showroom because the industry reputation precedes it. We only did it because it was either HT or pool, and I really wasn't in the mood to drop $40k right now on something that you can't rip out and sell on CL. Kept the kids happy.

My house will need some new windows soon. Plenty of showrooms out there that specialize in this work, but I won't step foot in one b/c the risks of being taken are just about 100%. I get the sense that's what just happened with the OP- he gave up. So we saved one from Costco. Woo Hoo- way to go!

Who has accommodated with the same quality? If you think Costco has your wrong. Or your level of quality is lower than most.

Roger, you completely missed the point. If folks have $5-15k to blow on a toy, a hot tub would be nice. Or maybe a motorcycle, or Disney vacation, or a boat or ????. The OP made his point clear: he is about to give up.

So, let's review the basics: To get a sale, you (1) have to get them in the door, and (2) have to keep them there. If you lose on either #1 or #2, it doesn't matter if they went to Costco, the Harley shop or Bass Pro. The HT dealer doesn't eat.

As a customer, I can think of a lot of real nice stuff to get for $5-15k. So does every other customer that walks through the door. Turn 'em off with the shenanigans and they'll move on (if they ever even show up).. It has nothing- repeat- NOTHING to do with what hot tub Costco may or may not sell.

I did miss your point, sorry. I have a hard time comprehending the bad dealer experiences that I think may be a bit blow out of proportion by some posters, there intimidation may propogate that. In Duluth Minnesota the 3 dealers of high quality post prices on there tubs and are not like used car salesman. I know them all and have seen them work. They are helpfull and not pushy. I have been down to MPLS and most dealers there were the same way, with prices clealy posted. I am well versed at handling used car salesman type people so when I did come across one, and I have, it was no big deal.

But, my point was there is no high quality box store type alternative for purchasing a hot tub. Yet.

[NewB@Spa]

I don't normally weigh in on such passionate debates because everyone has relevant points on each side. I too just bought a HT, in Oct, after the exhaustive online and around town search (yeah and I danced the dance!). What makes the HT search infinately more difficult than auto shopping is the lack of direct correlated competition. If I go look at a Jacuzzi I get one price than when I go across town to the Hot Springs dealer I get different prices - I get that, they are different companies/products (but there is a lot of smoke and mirrors). Where as when you buy a car typically there is more than one dealer of a particular make of car in your area, unless you are truly going high end. The issue with the HT industry is that the avg consumer doesn't know what is "high end" and what isn't (again the smoke and mirrors and very little track record). There is very little consumer advocacy out there (with the notable exception of forums like this). Even Consumer Reports won't tackle the issue! I know I did not buy a high end tub, but in the end I did not buy from Big Box either. I felt uneasy about the curb drop and zero post sale service.

[Mikey_in_NY]

If or when Costco get their HT quality together these dealers will soon learn a very valuable lesson, in that consumers don't want to dance the sales dance any more.

Oooow this is very general. most people will never buy a tub the Costco way. They want more, They want a dealer, and they want a tub they have tryed out and is comfortable because that is the most important part. Believe it or not allot of people do want to dance to a price. Some people enjoy it, probably more enjoy it than don't.

Roger,

First of all I totally respect your opinion and advice - please understand I'm not saying the Costco model is the way HT sales should go, neither am I recommending, or not recommending, anyone buys a HT from them as I don't know enough about Strong quality, other than what I've read on here.

Secondly, Yes - I completely agree that many (most?) people DO want a dealer they can trust, and who is there to help them out with any after-sales issues they may encounter, and any advice they may need. Perhaps my original post was a bit strong in as much as my intention was not to tar all dealers with the same brush, but when I shopped for a HT earlier this year I soon worked out who the "smoke and mirror" dealers were (it was like pulling teeth to get a price out of them), and subsequently kept away from them. In the end I went with a local Sundance dealer who was very matter-of-fact, with a no BS attitude, and I'm glad I did as they have demonstrated excellent after-sales service that I doubt I would have received via the Costco route.

Regardless of all this the original posters question is simple, and still stands, i.e. why can't the potential purchaser walk into a HT dealership and see the 'real' price posted on HT's, instead of playing a frequently convoluted bartering game?

[kaseykent]

As a concerned "dealer" in the hot tub industry I would love to hear feedback on this question: What would be the ultimate experience for buying a spa? Or what would you, as a customer, want to see happen to this industry?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I would really like to see things change for the better.

[bart6453]

As a concerned "dealer" in the hot tub industry I would love to hear feedback on this question: What would be the ultimate experience for buying a spa? Or what would you, as a customer, want to see happen to this industry?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I would really like to see things change for the better.

Honesty.

no BS, no bashing...just show me the goods, remove the theatrics and sell me a tub at a fair price.

The difference between cost and sale price is the value your customer will pay for.

[hrosvit]

As a concerned "dealer" in the hot tub industry I would love to hear feedback on this question: What would be the ultimate experience for buying a spa? Or what would you, as a customer, want to see happen to this industry?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I would really like to see things change for the better.

On more than one occasion, I have seen posters on this board insist that customers want and like the negotiating process. Apparently, I'm abnormal, because I have no desire to engage in psychological warfare with a person who, if it all works out, I will expect to support me for several years. I have absolutely no desire to negotiate for anything - cars, hot tubs, electronics, jewelry. Nothing. I am not Donald Trump trying to buy the Bellagio; I'm just a schmo trying to buy something to make my life a little more enjoyable.

Our culture has come to accept negotiating for cars. We are also now accepting it for other items. I guess maybe we need a poll: do any of you (consumers, not dealers) want to negotiate a price for your hot tub? If I am in the minority, I will apologize and withdraw my objection.

I just ordered a hot tub (a Bullfrog 462). I have been looking for about 6 months, and have been to at least a dozen dealers within 100 miles of my house. The number of dealers who had prices on their tubs: one. I have seen a couple of the service guys on this board say that the majority of the dealers they work with have prices posted; apparently you guys live in spa heaven, because, based on my experience, 8% is nowhere near a majority. I guess I just live in the wrong part of the country.

Here's what I want: a fair deal at a fair price. I don't expect a dealer to starve or give up all his profit. I also don't expect him to put his kid through college on my inexperience. I want them to post a price on their tubs, and if I like the price, I'll buy it. If I don't, I'll go somewhere else. How come three quarters of the dealers around me have their spas on sale ninety percent of the time? Today it's an end-of-the-year-sale. Next month, it will be a pre-Valentines sale. Then an Easter sale, and then a pre-summer sale, and then a summer sale, etc. You know what it makes me think? These aren't sale prices, they're just the regular prices being pimped as sale prices. What if I'm stupid enough to just walk in and pay (gasp!) the regular price? Do I get the "sucker" label?

One of the main reasons I ended up going with the Bullfrog (apart from the fact that I really liked it ) was that the shop owner is a good friend of a good friend of mine. So I feel a little more confident that I won't get screwed and/or abandoned. I did not get that feeling from other places I looked.

The bottom line is, we vote with our dollars. Although I did not buy a Costco tub, I can't say I didn't consider it. If I had not found a dealer I trusted, I might have gone that route. Because that big downside to the Costco experience, the lack of support and service, wasn't looking like such a downside when I considered the people I met at the dealership. This is, theoretically, still a buyer driven industry. It's up to us to show the sellers what we want.

[spawn]

As a concerned "dealer" in the hot tub industry I would love to hear feedback on this question: What would be the ultimate experience for buying a spa? Or what would you, as a customer, want to see happen to this industry?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I would really like to see things change for the better.

Good question Kasey and probably deserving a thread of its own.

They say be careful what you wish for because you just might get it, but here are my thoughts. I am uncomfortable with the idea that five different people may walk into a store and pay five different prices for the exact same thing. Frankly, I am one of the guys who usually does better in these situations than most - thinking of my car buying and similar experience - but I don't enjoy the haggling process. In fact, I dislike it so much that I don't haggle at all. I tell them that I am not good at negotiating so I don't do it and tell them what I will pay and that I understand if they can get more from someone else they should do so. I once drove four hours on New Year's Eve to buy a car from a dealer who decided it would be good for him to sell me a particular car at the price I had offered.

So lo and behold we have a couple of dealers of quality spas in my area that hold pretty tight to their prices. I have noticed that these prices are significantly higher than what spa buyers report in other parts of the country. They do have "constant" sales but the prices are pretty much the same. They offer a better deal at the end of a model year to move in-stock spas (now is a good time to buy). Both companies have multiple outlets, are known for good service and have been in business a long time. I have gone to the different outlets, approached them casually and aggressively and gotten the same pricing.

I understand pricing can vary by locale, but knwoing that others were getting the same spa for much less elsewhere left me a little uncomfortable. I nearly bought a spa from another seller because I truly liked it better, but I also felt it was a much better bang for the buck. At this point the seller I nearly bought from has gone out of business, while the two companies I described above are still operating. I think those companies know what they need to charge to stay in business long term and I have to decide if I want to pay it. I will be buying a spa in the spring but I am now looking at lower priced spas.

[thinkxingu]

Kasey,

This is what I want:

1. Prices on the tubs, so I can quickly find the ones that might suit me and start to ween out the ones that won't.

2. Someone to acknowledge I'm there and offer help, but not hover--it's clear when customers want help or not.

3. I want a salesman who will point out the pros and cons of the models I choose, but not to criticize my choices.

4. I want the salesman to tell me what I could gain by moving up as well as what I'll lose by moving down.

5. I want to know what buying this brand and at this store will get me--the services included, the store's/brand's history, and philosophy.

6. I want the salesman to explain their pricing and what it includes, if I'm not ready to buy, OFFER me brochures, a card, and their pricing information--transparency leads to comfort.

I have bought crazy expensive watches, jewelry, pens, cars, and other luxury items and one quote has always captured my sales/buying experiences:

"All things being equal, people will buy from a friend. All things being not so equal, people will still buy from a friend."

S

PS Of all the luxury items I've shopped for, shopping for tubs has been, by far, the worst.

[kaseykent]

These comments and suggestions have been awesome so far, keep 'em coming. This is so helpful for the dealers to hear what the customer is saying; now, if we can only "listen" and not just hear.

[Roger]

Roger ... what's up bud? You having a bad day? You're losing your edge. You know more about the insides of tubs than anyone here. But by your last 5 posts, you're just another local dealer fanboy. When did this happen? What happened to the independent tech? I've respected your opinions and posts and quite frankly learned a lot, but I'm not understanding your recent posts ... Spa shopping has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the spa manufacture. I think we all need to acknowledge that fact.

DK117

I am trying on a new personality. A lady across the lake from me has a Calspa that sounds like it has a bad pump. She is single and good looking. She asked me if I could come over and look at it. By the way I am single also. Anyway I asked her a few basic questions, like is the tub drained, and I was floored by her answer!! She said why would I need to drain it? me: how long has it not been running? her: about a month. me: well there may be more damage from freezing. her: why? me: well ice does that. her: why? Anyway you get the idea, on and on. Somewhere about here is where I lost it, the words blonde and bimbo might have slipped out, my bad.

I live in Northern Minnesota, real close to the coldest spot in the lower 48 and those Q&A's made me say some things to this lady that totaly blew my chances of a date or even a friendship. So I have decided to soften myself somehow.

By the way I did give her my card and she did call me to come look at her tub. I have heated it inside thawed and drained it for her. So far a pump, heater, and looks like a couple unions blew out and may have saved most of her plumbing. Easy fix but....wow amazing how some people are unprepared.

If it's any consolation I can put my tools in my trailer behind my 4 wheeler and be across the lake on the 14 inches of ice (already) in about 4 minutes. So far she hasn't been home when I have been there. But her dogs have been a big help!!! Lickin my face preventing my cheeks from getting cold.

[reeffreak]

I am trying on a new personality. A lady across the lake from me has a Calspa that sounds like it has a bad pump. She is single and good looking. She asked me if I could come over and look at it. By the way I am single also. Anyway I asked her a few basic questions, like is the tub drained, and I was floored by her answer!! She said why would I need to drain it? me: how long has it not been running? her: about a month. me: well there may be more damage from freezing. her: why? me: well ice does that. her: why? Anyway you get the idea, on and on. Somewhere about here is where I lost it, the words blonde and bimbo might have slipped out, my bad.

I live in Northern Minnesota, real close to the coldest spot in the lower 48 and those Q&A's made me say some things to this lady that totaly blew my chances of a date or even a friendship. So I have decided to soften myself somehow.

By the way I did give her my card and she did call me to come look at her tub. I have heated it inside thawed and drained it for her. So far a pump, heater, and looks like a couple unions blew out and may have saved most of her plumbing. Easy fix but....wow amazing how some people are unprepared.

If it's any consolation I can put my tools in my trailer behind my 4 wheeler and be across the lake on the 14 inches of ice (already) in about 4 minutes. So far she hasn't been home when I have been there. But her dogs have been a big help!!! Lickin my face preventing my cheeks from getting cold.

She is your type though... After all, it is a full foam spa! Sorry it didn't work out... Idiot me: Forgot to pull the backflow on the sprinkler before the first hard freeze a couple of wks ago. After I saw what the ice did to 1/4" thick brass I have a much deeper respect for it.

[sbonder]

These comments and suggestions have been awesome so far, keep 'em coming. This is so helpful for the dealers to hear what the customer is saying; now, if we can only "listen" and not just hear.

I don't like haggling, but can handle it. What I dislike most about the spa industry is not something that dealers can fix, it would be up to the manufacturers. You need stores that handle more than one brand and more than one dealer of each brand in each major city. Not good for dealers, I understand, but great for the consumer. I'm not even suggesting that the competition needs to drive the price down, although it would. I would just love to have a choice between who I want to deal with for a particular spa.

I am still just starting this process (second go around -did this ten years ago as well), but am unhappy to find that one premium spa brand is handled exclusively by a dealer with a Better Business Bureau rating of "F" and comments on websites about ripoffs. No idea of whether the F is warranted or the postings are lies, but if I had another dealer near by that could service the spa I would be much happier.

Perhaps one of your professionals can answer this, do the manufacturers have independent repair guys in each city that are authorized to make warranty repairs? Or are we consumers limited to the dealer we dealt with?

[Roger]

Perhaps one of your professionals can answer this, do the manufacturers have independent repair guys in each city that are authorized to make warranty repairs? Or are we consumers limited to the dealer we dealt with?

I have been asked to do warranty before by several manufacturers. But only when local dealer service wasn't an option. I prefer customer pay for any service so the question would be does the manufacturer provide reimbursment for out of network repair costs to owners of it's brand.

[pkillur]

I just have to get on the record to say that all you complainers are absolutely annoying...If we put prices on every spa we would be making it too easy for our competition to source out our pricing and either beat it or be right in line with it....We are not in business to make our competitions business easier.....Ever try walking into a home depot with a camera? do it and see how friendly they are with you.....It is much harder to price shop a big box store because you have so many products in one store, you cant go around with a pad of paper and write down every price.. We also put the MSRP's on our spa for this reason as well... If we do get prioce shopped, it is going to be the wrong price and our competition's price will not be in line with ours...

Lastly, all you Costco tub owners who love going to your local PROFESSIONAL spa dealer for free water tests and information to teach you how to use your new tub, that no one at costco knows anything about. Let me be the first to tell you, this is going to stop!!!!!! That's right.....soon all professional hot tub companies will be charging customers who do not buy a spa from them or chemicals at the time of the test for water tests.....You expect us to stay in business while not supporting us and want to continue to use our free service??? waste our time as you know nothing about your spa, while I could be losing a customer up front that is looking at spas?? wake up and smell the coffee folks....this is going to change, and I can say in my city we have been working closely with all hot tub professionals to see this through..

You want the world for nothing....well no more

and over the past 3 years all Costco's hot tub company's have gone out of business....who's there to help you now? that's right

so unless you know anything at all about marketing and or a retail industry, quit complaining and suck it up

nuff said

Whoa. Dude, if you were my local dealer I would absolutely not deal with you. I have years of experience in technical sales and engineering sales. No, it's not retail, but it's all about the customer!

I personally know the sales tactics (give and take away, crazy reductions on an inflated price, etc) and know they exist for a reason. And, I don't rip people off, but I certainly don't tell people when they are paying more than someone else did. I don't get so offended about arguments and getting a lower price, but then again I'm experienced with sales, and to me no means next. I think that the whole "it's hard dealing with a sales person" is a very western world mentality. If you go to Asia, the middle east, or Africa and to most extents Europe people barter and argue over prices on ALMOST EVERYTHING!

That being said, it is my belief that I would much rather make 1000 dollar 10 dollars at a time than 1000 dollars once, because those experiences compound themselves in the long run. Am I earning my food selling hot tubs? No. But spending 15 cents on a customer to use a drop kit to sell them a 5 dollar marked up chemical is a pretty freaking phenomenal return on your customer expenditures! I have a friend who runs a blinds / window covering business. He spends about 80 bucks to gain a customer. 80 bucks or 15 cents.... Simple if you ask me.

[UK Arctic Dealer]

I just have to get on the record to say that all you complainers are absolutely annoying...If we put prices on every spa we would be making it too easy for our competition to source out our pricing and either beat it or be right in line with it....We are not in business to make our competitions business easier.....Ever try walking into a home depot with a camera? do it and see how friendly they are with you.....It is much harder to price shop a big box store because you have so many products in one store, you cant go around with a pad of paper and write down every price.. We also put the MSRP's on our spa for this reason as well... If we do get prioce shopped, it is going to be the wrong price and our competition's price will not be in line with ours...

Lastly, all you Costco tub owners who love going to your local PROFESSIONAL spa dealer for free water tests and information to teach you how to use your new tub, that no one at costco knows anything about. Let me be the first to tell you, this is going to stop!!!!!! That's right.....soon all professional hot tub companies will be charging customers who do not buy a spa from them or chemicals at the time of the test for water tests.....You expect us to stay in business while not supporting us and want to continue to use our free service??? waste our time as you know nothing about your spa, while I could be losing a customer up front that is looking at spas?? wake up and smell the coffee folks....this is going to change, and I can say in my city we have been working closely with all hot tub professionals to see this through..

You want the world for nothing....well no more

and over the past 3 years all Costco's hot tub company's have gone out of business....who's there to help you now? that's right

so unless you know anything at all about marketing and or a retail industry, quit complaining and suck it up

nuff said

lol @ the Voice

I wonder how many other dealers would agree how annoying customers are who spend 3 hours shopping at your store, the whole family wet tests, the kids wreck all your displays and the adults drink all your coffee and then buy from somewhere else but then come to you at the first sign of a problem?

Of course the customer always comes first but you have to agree it can be a bit frustrating when it happens.

[Mikey_in_NY]

I just have to get on the record to say that all you complainers are absolutely annoying...If we put prices on every spa we would be making it too easy for our competition to source out our pricing and either beat it or be right in line with it....We are not in business to make our competitions business easier.....Ever try walking into a home depot with a camera? do it and see how friendly they are with you.....It is much harder to price shop a big box store because you have so many products in one store, you cant go around with a pad of paper and write down every price.. We also put the MSRP's on our spa for this reason as well... If we do get prioce shopped, it is going to be the wrong price and our competition's price will not be in line with ours...

Lastly, all you Costco tub owners who love going to your local PROFESSIONAL spa dealer for free water tests and information to teach you how to use your new tub, that no one at costco knows anything about. Let me be the first to tell you, this is going to stop!!!!!! That's right.....soon all professional hot tub companies will be charging customers who do not buy a spa from them or chemicals at the time of the test for water tests.....You expect us to stay in business while not supporting us and want to continue to use our free service??? waste our time as you know nothing about your spa, while I could be losing a customer up front that is looking at spas?? wake up and smell the coffee folks....this is going to change, and I can say in my city we have been working closely with all hot tub professionals to see this through..

You want the world for nothing....well no more

and over the past 3 years all Costco's hot tub company's have gone out of business....who's there to help you now? that's right

so unless you know anything at all about marketing and or a retail industry, quit complaining and suck it up

nuff said

Voice - you have some valid comments regarding Costco buyers wasting dealers time asking for wet tests, but you're way off base with your pricing comments in your first paragraph...

1. When a potential purchaser enters your showroom, sees the MSRP's, and quickly walks out muttering under their breath about how expensive your tubs are, then what does that do for your monthly sales? Don't assume that every customer wants to engage a salesman - some simply prefer to walk around undisturbed looking at prices.

2. Why would anyone want to walk into Home Depot with a notebook or camera when all they need to do is look on homedepot.com? or Lowes.com? or wherever? Home Depot do sell some higher $ items such as washers, fridges, back-up generators, etc, and ALL of these prices are totally transparent via their web site. So how do they remain competitive doing the exact thing that you find "annoying" in a much more competitive market?

I do accept there is a case for some wiggle room on MSRP's for most high $ items, including hot tubs. but not the 30% to 40% I encountered earlier this year from most of the main brands. If posting the real MSRP means a particular dealer is uncompetitive with other dealers then tough - they're gonna have to figure out a way to reduce overheads or go out of business just like in any other market.

Finally, I doubt your comments are shared by most Spa manufacturers