Cloudy Water In My Two Week Old Envoy, What Gives?

[dotdog2]

Hello,

I have been a lurker for a short while but finally joined the board after purchasing a second hand 2005 Envoy. I’ve had it up and running here in Baton Rouge Louisiana for about two weeks. The HotSprings dealer here has been very helpful even though I didn’t buy from them. The tub is in mint condition and identical to the current year model, jet wise. We love the tub! The water has been sparkling clear and I have been checking it with five indicator test strips frequently. Everything looks perfect.

Yesterday we left town and I shocked the tub with almost 2oz. of concentrated chlorine, closed the lid, hit the clean button, and headed out of town. Today when we got back, the tub is cloudy but I can still see the bottom. The water has a white milky tint to it. It was crystal clear yesterday when I shocked it. I tested the water today and the strips say the alk is perfect, the ph is perfect, and the hardness is close to perfect but maybe on the low side. The strips indicated no chlorine or bromine present in the water. The strips are new. The tub has an Ozonator. The AG+ cartridge is brand new, I just bought it two weeks ago along with five brand new HotSprings ceramic filters. The ozonator is bubbling quite well. My wife and I have been using the tub almost daily since we set it up and have been diligent with the MPS. We try to rinse off before we get in the tub when we use it.

Anyone know why the water is cloudy white all of a sudden? There is no abnormal odor and the jets all work just fine. MotoMassage Rocks! We used it tonight anyway.

Additionally, The weather here has been in the low 90's during the day and high 60's at night. I have the tub temperature set at 85 degrees and the temp of the tub will not drop below 96 degrees the following night after having the cover on all day. I have had the max temp set at 90 degrees for several days now and its always at least 96 degrees. The cover is a dark grey and the tub is up on a deck a few feet off the ground. When I am in the tub I do not feel hot water coming from the vent with the temp set so low so I don’t think the heater is running unnecessarily but I don't know. Does this seem normal? Is the sun really keeping the tub so hot while covered? We did run the tub up to 104 the first day we had it and it maintained 104 perfectly for two days.

Thanks in advance for the great advice! This is a great forum. Jim

[shovelhd]

Did you decontaminate it before you used it for the first time? The complete procedure, with the Spa Flush and superchlorination? I wonder if something was brewing inside that finally showed its ugly head.

[Peteyboy]

I would also see if the ozone check valve has possibly broken. Especially if you think you have more bubbles than usual. The bubbles aren't an indicator that the ozone is working. The injector creates the bubbles. Look in the equipment area and find your heater. Two 3/4" hoses come off the heater and a black injector is in line with the heater outlet hose. This injector has a 1/4" hose coming out the top. Follow this hose up until you run into the little check valve. If it's broken that could be the problem, there is only air being introduced to the water, no ozone.

Also you can open the cover and try to smell the ozone. Do this after it has been closed for awhile.

[dotdog2]

I did not decontaminate it before the first use. I just found the chemical section and am trying to get a handle on all of the lingo. Its a lot to be hit with at one time. I found the pool calculator. Its a bit over whelming. I will get it somehow. My tub is 450 Gallons. What should I add to it to decontaminate it? I am a bit confused because I am getting so much conflicting info from here and my LD. Actually the two dealers I have talked to say different things. I have been reading the maintenance procedures by Jason T. Linhart and now have no idea where to turn.

It seems I should be using a whole different group of chemicals than the dealer recommends and should purchase the Taylor K-006 test kit. Should I really be using or needing all the FC since I have an ozonator? I was told by the dealer that I shouldn’t need to use any chlorine except to shock the tub once a week and did not need to maintain a sanitizer level except MPS before each use.

Thanks, Jim

[dotdog2]

I would also see if the ozone check valve has possibly broken. Especially if you think you have more bubbles than usual. The bubbles aren't an indicator that the ozone is working. The injector creates the bubbles. Look in the equipment area and find your heater. Two 3/4" hoses come off the heater and a black injector is in line with the heater outlet hose. This injector has a 1/4" hose coming out the top. Follow this hose up until you run into the little check valve. If it's broken that could be the problem, there is only air being introduced to the water, no ozone.

Also you can open the cover and try to smell the ozone. Do this after it has been closed for awhile.

How do I know the check valve is working or not?

[PaulR]

I did not decontaminate it before the first use. ... What should I add to it to decontaminate it?

Check out this Spa Decontamination procedure.

It seems I should be using a whole different group of chemicals than the dealer recommends and should purchase the Taylor K-006 test kit. Should I really be using or needing all the FC since I have an ozonator? I was told by the dealer that I shouldn’t need to use any chlorine except to shock the tub once a week and did not need to maintain a sanitizer level except MPS before each use.

That would be the K-2006 kit. It's the most thorough one there is.

I don't have an opinion about ozone+MPS versus chlorine; don't know enough.

--paulr

[shovelhd]

You should never let the tub get down to zero sanitizer, ever. If you do, you need to shock it at a minimum, bringing the chlorine or bromine up past 10ppm to kill everything. I also would never rely on a sanitation procedure that relied totally on shock. You need a residual level of sanitizer, all the time. Shocking should be used after unusually high bather loads and as a periodic cleanout in case any nasty bugs have developed a resistance to the sanitizer. You can get some really bad skin infections from going in a tub that is not properly sanitized.

Since you never decontaminated it, there's no time like the present. Get some Spa Flush and a gallon of bleach. Follow Nitro's decon procedure to the letter. I bet you'll be surprised what comes out of there.

[JerimiahR]

The water being a milky white, do you also get a lot of foam/bubbles when the jets run? I often find that new hot tub owners build up quite a bit of soap/laundry detergent in their new spas which can cause this sort of issue. Rinse your bathing suits, don't wash them after each use.

Also, what we recommend to our customers in my market, with the Envoy (using Ozone & AG+) is the following:

Add 2 tsp of DiChlor (chlorine) for each person immediately after soaking. Run the jets (clean cycle) for at least 10 minutes.

Weekly, shock the spa with 2.5 TBS of DiChlor even if you don't use it.

Our experience has been that this gives people a very simple routine process, and keeps the spa nice and clean. It also allows the person to take advantage of the low/no chlorine residual during your soaking experience.

[Trigger]

I dis agree with Shvlhd statement that sanitizer should never go to 0. I dose my tub to 5 ppm after each use, and let it go to zero and soak in chlorine free water. I do have the ozinator running, but don't keep the Dichlor levels up. If I go more than 7-10 days without using the tub, I'll toss some in. But other than that, no problems.

One time I had water issues like Dotdog described, and found I had fat fingered the economy mode on and the filter cycles got messed up. (this was on a tiger river tub)....does that make any sense, or am i mis remebering the problem...would EM effect filtering?

[Peteyboy]

The way HotSpring advises using ozone, silver AG+ and non-chlorine shock is that you use the shock before each use and only use chlorine weekly. This does let the chlorine level go to 0. The ozone eats up chlorine pretty fast. The ozone should keep the water nice until using it.

I still think the ozone check valve may be broken.

Find the heater in the equipment area, the is an injector inline with one of the heater hoses, the injector has a 1/4" hose coming out the top. Follow this hose up until you run into the check valve inline with this hose. If it's broken off that is your problem.

This is worth checking to make sure.

You can decontaminate by adding about 6 tablespoons chlorine and run the jets for 2 cycles, the jets run 2 hours each cycle.

[shovelhd]

The way HotSpring advises using ozone, silver AG+ and non-chlorine shock is that you use the shock before each use and only use chlorine weekly. This does let the chlorine level go to 0. The ozone eats up chlorine pretty fast. The ozone should keep the water nice until using it.

I missed the AG+. I know nothing about it.

[dotdog2]

Did you decontaminate it before you used it for the first time? The complete procedure, with the Spa Flush and superchlorination? I wonder if something was brewing inside that finally showed its ugly head.

Like I said I did not do the procedure but I have ordered the Spaflush and will do the procedure when it gets here next week.

That would be the K-2006 kit. It's the most thorough one there is.

I don't have an opinion about ozone+MPS versus chlorine; don't know enough.

--paulr

I ordered the kit today.

The water being a milky white, do you also get a lot of foam/bubbles when the jets run? I often find that new hot tub owners build up quite a bit of soap/laundry detergent in their new spas which can cause this sort of issue. Rinse your bathing suits, don't wash them after each use.

We get some foam bubbles when the jets run but not much. I don't know how this could be caused by the build up since, like I said in the first post, it was crystal clear the day before when I shocked it with 2oz. super concentrated dichlor and left town. We try to rinse off before we use the tub and we have not been washing our bathing suits.

The way HotSpring advises using ozone, silver AG+ and non-chlorine shock is that you use the shock before each use and only use chlorine weekly. This does let the chlorine level go to 0. The ozone eats up chlorine pretty fast. The ozone should keep the water nice until using it.

I still think the ozone check valve may be broken.

Find the heater in the equipment area, the is an injector inline with one of the heater hoses, the injector has a 1/4" hose coming out the top. Follow this hose up until you run into the check valve inline with this hose. If it's broken off that is your problem.

This is worth checking to make sure.

You can decontaminate by adding about 6 tablespoons chlorine and run the jets for 2 cycles, the jets run 2 hours each cycle.

I added about 4oz.=8tbl’s of the concentrated CL today in two 2oz. doses and the water seems to have cleared up significantly after running for the two tow hour cycles. I have lost faith in the test strips as I no longer think they are accurate and clear plus I have the K-2006 on the way. I popped open the cover panel and took some pics. Please tell me what you think.

Without visual evidence of a failed check valve on the ozonator, how the heck do you know of it is working properly? I know you said smell it but what the heck does Ozone smell like?

Also, no one has answered my question about the heater and the temperature of the tub from my first post. ???

[dotdog2]

Here is the new setup on the deck. There is a lake in the background.

[dotdog2]

Here are the pics of the chemicals I am using.

[dotdog2]

Here are some pics from after running the jets for four hours total with the top open and shocking the hell out of it.

[dotdog2]

Here are the pics of the inspection of the Ozone line under the panel.

This pic I ran through MSPaint to show you guys what the hose does where you cant see it in the pics and where the check valve is.

The yellow hose is supposed to be clear I believe but it is not as you can see and the hose is very flimsy and kinked over in several places in the hose as you can see where it is folded over at the injector fitting and is several other places where you cant see it in the pics. There also appears to be some kind of debris or goop inside the clear hose. I pulled the hose from the ozonator itself and it seemed to be attached to the ozonator by some clear goop inside the hose. I know, I should have taken a pic of it.

Here are the pics of the check valve.

And one more pic of everything.

What do you guys think? Do you notice how the inside of the clear hose in the compartment is a milky white color? It was like that when I got the tub and still is. I was looking at some pics of a new tub like this one the tubes were clear like in this pic. This is not my tub but compare it to the similar clear hoses on the pics of my tub above.

thanks again for all the great help. Jim

[shovelhd]

What do you guys think? Do you notice how the inside of the clear hose in the compartment is a milky white color? It was like that when I got the tub and still is. I was looking at some pics of a new tub like this one the tubes were clear like in this pic. This is not my tub but compare it to the similar clear hoses on the pics of my tub above.

I bought my tub used and my ozone lines looked exactly the same, yellowed and kinked. The decon did not remove all the junk so I replaced the lines and check valves with new tubing. That white junk may be dead but it can't be good. I got the tubing at the hardware store and the check valves from LPS. Both check valves were clogged up solid.

[Peteyboy]

Excellent pics and your set up is very nice.

Your check valve is not broken.

That ozone tube is one they used that has a liner in it. This liner tends to bunch up - I would replace the hose with new vinyl hose. If the hose was very kinked then you wouldn't have the bubbles (unless an air leak).

I would unhook the ozone hose from the ozonator and plug the hose with a finger. You should not get the bubbles. This will tell you if there is an air leak. If you do get bubbles there is a leak somewhere. Keep unhooking the hose down the line and plugging it until you find the leak.

You are using mostly Bioguard chemicals which are very good. The enhanced shock is as good as shocking with chlorine because it has a lot of chlorine in it.

The water looks fine now. Sometimes things just get out of whack. I love test strips - I don't know why people have problems with them - I have been using them for years. Frankly - I don't want testing to be a pain. In my mind if your pretty close your fine.

HotSpring spas tend to stay hot in the summer. It's not unusual to see them acclimate in the 90's when the temp is turned all the way down to 80. You can set it on Summer Timer which will help a little, however the ozone will not be working for 8 hours. I have folded a rag and propped the cover open and inch, this helps a little.

As for the 3/4" hoses - they will always turn a milky color, and the one out of the ozone injector will turn brown - bacteria being killed by the ozone.

Did I miss anything?

[dotdog2]

Thanks for the awesome support guys!!! I really appreciate all your help. Im headed to get the hose now. The tub is very clear now. I will do the decon when the chemicals arrive and give an update.

Anyone know why the pink string is in the cabinet? it seems to run up into the black 3" vent tubes. I dont want to yank the string if it is a biproduct of production. You can see it in some of the pics above. Jim

[Raeven]

Anyone know why the pink string is in the cabinet? it seems to run up into the black 3" vent tubes. I dont want to yank the string if it is a biproduct of production. You can see it in some of the pics above. Jim

LOL, I don't know for sure, but I can take an educated guess... someone probably changed out the interior control panel. They are well known to fail, just as mine did in my 2005 Envoy. I used the very same string when I changed mine out earlier this year.

I'd just leave the string alone. Hopefully you won't need to use it again, but you never know....

Best, Rae

P. S. Why does this forum kick me out almost instantly after I log in? I always have to log in at least 3 times to post anything... really a bummer. :/

[dotdog2]

LOL, I don't know for sure, but I can take an educated guess... someone probably changed out the interior control panel. They are well known to fail, just as mine did in my 2005 Envoy. I used the very same string when I changed mine out earlier this year.

I'd just leave the string alone. Hopefully you won't need to use it again, but you never know....

Best, Rae

do the boards on the SH Envoy really fail that often? Why would the strings indicate a board change?

I changed the hose tonight and checked the check valve. It was fine and working. The bubbles stopped when I blocked off the ozonator end of the hose. All is fine with the new hose and was before I changed it.

On another note, I turned the tub breakers off when I was changing the Ozonator hose. Three hours later when my wife and I got in the tub, the ready light would not come on until I took the temp setting of the tub above 104, at the UT-1 setting above 104! Is this normal if you reset the breaker? I had turned it back down to 90 right after the reset. The tub was way to hot to enjoy for any period of time, it was at least 104 degrees. I am wondering if I may have a temp regulation problem like I was talking about in previous posts. Thanks again. Jim.

[Peteyboy]

That red string is to feed the wires for the stereo if you add one.

They did have problems with the auxiliary control, that one is the phone jack cord that goes into a 3/4" vinyl hose.

The ready light only has about a 5 1/2 degree window. If your spa is 104 and you turn it down to 90 you would think "I am at least up to the set temp - the ready light should stay on", but no, it has the window. It's really just an indicator that you are near your temp.

Turn off the power to the spa and look on the circuit board - there are some small pin jumpers - put one of the little jumpers on JP10 (this will have the spa display actual temp) - a jumper is considered ON if it goes across both pins and OFF if it is only on one pin.

I would still try to smell for the ozone. It smells like a strong fresh rain with a slight burnt wire smell - kinda of hard to describe. Have the cover closed for a couple hours and take a whiff when you open the cover. If I smell it I know it's working.

[dotdog2]

That red string is to feed the wires for the stereo if you add one.

They did have problems with the auxiliary control, that one is the phone jack cord that goes into a 3/4" vinyl hose.

The ready light only has about a 5 1/2 degree window. If your spa is 104 and you turn it down to 90 you would think "I am at least up to the set temp - the ready light should stay on", but no, it has the window. It's really just an indicator that you are near your temp.

Turn off the power to the spa and look on the circuit board - there are some small pin jumpers - put one of the little jumpers on JP10 (this will have the spa display actual temp) - a jumper is considered ON if it goes across both pins and OFF if it is only on one pin.

I would still try to smell for the ozone. It smells like a strong fresh rain with a slight burnt wire smell - kinda of hard to describe. Have the cover closed for a couple hours and take a whiff when you open the cover. If I smell it I know it's working.

Thanks for the info!

All day today I left the cover cracked about 4" with a dry towel and this afternoon the temp is still at 104 and the temp on the panel has been set at 80 since yesterday night. The high today in Baton Rouge was 89 and sunny. What do you guys think is going on here? ...Its too hot to enjoy for more than a few minutes. We like to sit in it for 30min to an hour. Im starting to think something is broken that regulates the temp. I touched the heater and it does not feel hot nor does the circ. vent on the floor of the tub seem to have super hot water coming from it that would indicate the heater was on. Is it possible the heater is staying on for to long when it cycles?

Will the jumper setting you mentioned above only make the ready light come on when the tub is at the set temp? Will it do anything else?

I do smell Ozone. I know it is working now.

[dotdog2]

I just measured the temp a few minutes ago with a cooking thermometer and it is at 96 degrees and the green ready light came on when I raised the temp setting to 93 so your +-5 deg variance seems right. I have had the cover completely off since my last post. I still dont know why the tub was so hot yesterday.

I would still like to know if the jumper setting you mentioned above only make the ready light come on when the tub is exactly at the set temp? Will it do anything else?

Thanks for all your help, Jim

[r5ran]

I just measured the temp a few minutes ago with a cooking thermometer and it is at 96 degrees and the green ready light came on when I raised the temp setting to 93 so your +-5 deg variance seems right. I have had the cover completely off since my last post. I still dont know why the tub was so hot yesterday.

I would still like to know if the jumper setting you mentioned above only make the ready light come on when the tub is exactly at the set temp? Will it do anything else?

Thanks for all your help, Jim

Jim,

I did the jumper 10 change to my Vanguard a few weeks ago, and no, it won't change your ready light at all. Mine comes on exactly +- 2 degrees (a total variance of 4 degrees) from where I have the temp set, (if I have it set at 100, the light comes on at 98 and goes out above 102).

The only thing the jumper change will do is, when you hit the temp button, the set temp will show for about 3 seconds, then when the "set" in the upper left corner goes out, the actual temperature will show for about another 3 seconds. A very handy and nice change and should of come from the factory set that way, IMHO. You can also jumper #7 and the current temp will show all the time. I have not done that, but that is what the gurus on this site say, and I believe them!

Enjoy, Hot Spring makes an excellent tub. Mine has been perfect and very cheap to operate. So far I am very pleased.

Ran