Diary, The Purchasse Of A Costco Tub

[Matt87109]

Has anybody had the opportunity cost discussion when it comes to cheap and expensive tubs?

[Roger]

The question is, when the big box stores prove they can bring a Lexus to the market at a Toyota price, are you going to welcome them?

Here's where your wrong. It simply can't be done and this is part of my problem with big box store purchasers.

And consumers who think it can be done. It's all about how one approaches there purchase. Buy a big box store tub knowing you made comprimises in longevity, fit and finish and support for an inexpensive tub wishing you could afford a top quality tub. Or buy a big box tub thinking your some kind of genious, why hasn't anyone else seen how I can get a hot tub worth 8 grand for under 4 grand. Its just as good as a top of the line tub, why are these dealers charging so much? They are out to screw us consumers. Stores like Costco come off as some kind of hero. Same with Kia automotive. Jump in one and say wow, I got this new car that is just as good as the Honda or Toyota for allot less money, I'm a genious! 5 years later your buying your next new car, while the honda toyota guys keep driving for another 5-10 years.

Rotomold has been around for years. Strong is inovating a new approach for them by cutting corners and finding customers through Costco. Not by designing something that isn't out there. Which isn't inovating at all and has proven to be the downfall of 3-4 manufacturers before them.

[reeffreak]

Has anybody had the opportunity cost discussion when it comes to cheap and expensive tubs?

Not that I've seen. I don't think you can have a meaningful NPV conversation on this forum.

[n1oty]

As regards the foreign hot tubs, the Chinese made stuff in particular (I've worked on some), some of which showed up on Ebay the past couple of years. Every one that I've seen does not comply with UL1563 and is not certified by either UL or ETL, which makes them illegal to install in any state that has incorporated the NEC into law by regulation (See Article 110.3 in its entirety). Many states do. The homeowner and installing electrician run a grave risk in such cases should there be a catastrophic event such as a fire or electrocution. I always have the homeowner sign a waiver prior to working on uncertified tubs whereby they acknowledge that I have informed them that they have an uncertified tub and that its continued use by the customer may be illegal.

John

My assertion is that the imports will eventually get it right. They enter the market with low priced crap. Then they build better and better products, eventually eclipsing that of the onshore mfg's. We'll see the shift from the "crap" phase to the "pretty good stuff" phase one day. Maybe we're seeing it now. It's very predictable, has shuttered dozens of onshore industries, and has gutted our nation's ability to produce.

This is where I think Strong (i.e. Costco Evolution) has done something interesting. They've scrapped the wood frame concept in favor of a rotomold process (read high volume, cheap, minimal labor, sturdy). It's ideas like this, coupled with inexpensive offshore labor and an ultra-efficient big box supply chain that will create a commodity market. I don't know Keys, Infinity, etc. because I'm not a hot tub guy. But when I look at what Costco has on the market today, they're mainly selling Calspa (which I'd regard as a neutral brand on this forum), and Strong (which has been slammed PURELY on guilt by association with Costco's "former" brands, despite the fact that they seem to have been built with components acceptable in this forum in other entry level spas (Balboa VS, Waterway 56 frame pumps, etc.).

I respect the experience and opinions on this board. I think the IRT's will always have spas to work on. But some of the critiques of the current big-box offerings are silly, and the attacks of folks that simply want to share their experiences are juvenile. These are your CUSTOMERS.

The question is, when the big box stores prove they can bring a Lexus to the market at a Toyota price, are you going to welcome them?

And you're telling me there are no technology, efficiency, or style differences between a 20yr old Jac and a new $8k tub made today? That tells me there is no innovation, and makes globalization with the new ideas it brings that much more of a risk.

You make some huge assumptions here that have heretofor proved inaccurate in the marketplace. There are no instances where the cheaper foreign manufacturers have ever gotten it right by making as good or better product for less money. When engineers design any product, they have three parameters that drive their design:

1. Cut costs.

2. Improve quality.

3. Speed up delivery.

The general concensus is that a manufacturer can usually deliver on any two of those three parameters. Back in the 80's and early 90's, this industry was focused on improving quality and speeding up delivery. In the late 90's, Jacuzzi started the ball rolling against the established paradigm by marketing those horrible Echo series tubs through Home Depot. Sure, they cut costs. Sure, they pumped up delivery. Guess what suffered.

The paradigm you wish for could possibly work if consumers were willing to suffer long wait times for product delivery and service. Imagine the cost savings that could be achieved by cutting all overtime during peak spa season and just extending delivery times by a few months or having a customer wait a few weeks for warranty service so that maximum tech productivity could be achieved. However, I know from experience that most consumers will not tolerate such delays. Plus, it is important to note that the whole big-box merchant mindset concentrates on cutting costs and speeding delivery. A huge part of the problem here is that Costco, Home Depot and the rest couldn't care LESS about quality. If the merchant doesn't press for quality improvements, the manufacturer will not feel compelled to address it.

John

[reeffreak]

You make some huge assumptions here that have heretofor proved inaccurate in the marketplace. There are no instances where the cheaper foreign manufacturers have ever gotten it right by making as good or better product for less money.

Thanks- A good laugh is a great way to start the day!

To summarize the thoughts: (1) Costco and the big box stores will never get it right. They have, and always will sell crap. (2) Globalization of the manufaturing and supply chain can never reach this industry. (3) Quality 20 yr old tubs are just as good [and in some ways better] than the latest and greatest out there today.

Sorry OP for the detour. I think #1 above was useful to this thread however.

[Roger]

To summarize the thoughts: (1) Costco and the big box stores will never get it right. They have, and always will sell crap. (2) Globalization of the manufaturing and supply chain can never reach this industry. (3) Quality 20 yr old tubs are just as good [and in some ways better] than the latest and greatest out there today.

Sorry OP for the detour. I think #1 above was useful to this thread however.

Boy your really screwing words around. 1. Costco does a fabulous job, better than any supermarket on pickles. Costco also does a great job on lawn chairs. Matter of fact places like Costco, Home Depot, Menards, all do a great job and I use them for many many things and products. Just not Hot Tubs or electronics. And a few other things.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

To summarize the thoughts: (1) Costco and the big box stores will never get it right. They have, and always will sell crap.

Will they ever get it right? I'm not sure but I know what they have gotten wrong so far by repeating the same formula over and over.

They have prioritized to their suppliers the important aspects of hot tubs this way, 1-price, 2-feaures, 3-quality. Their meeting probably goes something like this “it has to sell for $4999, it has to have this and that for bling and you guys take back anything the customer doesn’t want. Deal?".

They have NOT held the supplier's feet to the fire to build in the quality but instead they've insulated themselves from quality issues with a policy that they'll give people their $ back and charge back the supplier for the spa. Some have mistakenly thought this would force the supplier to build a better spa but its always a supplier hurting for business who first has to meet items 1 and 2 which are pushed VERY hard to the point that they just don’t have the leeway left to handle item #3 which is something that isn’t an issue today but is a “we’ll tackle that when it rears it ugly head later” issue.

When the quality tanks (as has happened with Keys, Infinity, Hydro and just about every previous supplier) Costco simply sends the spas back to the supplier and debits what they owe them. The supplier gets in a big $ hole and goes BK and Costco moves on to the next supplier willing to sell their soul for volume sales.

Costco will get it right when someone at corporate decides that #3 is as important as #1 and #2. Your guess is as good as mine as to when/if that will happen.

[hot_water]

>> "The general concensus is that a manufacturer can usually deliver on any two of those three parameters."

That's not a general consensus... it's not even a moderately held belief. What it is, is wrong. You've just re-stated the old saying, "You can have it good, fast or cheap - pick two". Which is a clever line, but only valid at ONE instant in time.

The fact is that every modern industry has improved significantly and will continue to improve in all three areas, as well as many other far more subtle areas. Modern technology has enabled processes to be improved, automated, and much more tightly integrated with engineering. Engineering tools are better and have shortened design times dramatically over the last 20 years. Improved machine tools and innovative fabrication techniques and materials reduce tooling times and improve accuracy and repeatability. The result is that products are unquestionably better in terms of features, performance and reliability, designed and delivered quicker, AND have a lower life cycle cost (adjusted for the value of the dollar and corrected to account for the vastly improved feature set offered on the new products). It's unrealistic to suggest otherwise.

>> "Will they ever get it right? I'm not sure but I know what they have gotten wrong so far by repeating the same formula over and over."

I don't see that Costco has gotten anything "wrong".

Costco has built their company into a major retailer, with perhaps the best overall reputation for Customer support, precisely by sticking to their formula that works.

The hope is that they will NOT change what they're doing. There is no problem with the approach. If yuo don't like the approach, you are free to shop elsewhere.

>> "They have prioritized to their suppliers the important aspects of hot tubs this way, 1-price, 2-feaures, 3-quality."

News flash. Every product - EVERY product - is designed to meet a price point. If it wasn't, hot tubs would would have hydroformed stainless steel shells, stainless plumbing and mil-spec components. And no one could afford them.

Costco, by the way, doesn't prioritize things as you've said. The priority is, #1 - price, #1 - features, and #1 - quality. In other words, if a supplier doesn't agree to ALL THREE, they don't get the Costco deal.

The only exceptions I know of are TVs and computers. Costco had to back off of the unlimited return policy because too many people were abusing the return policy for computers and TVs, taking advantage of declining prices and higher performance later model products.

>> " “it has to sell for $4999, it has to have this and that for bling and you guys take back anything the customer doesn’t want. Deal?"."

You were there for that meeting? Wow, I guess you must be pretty well connected.

But I do think you might be close, although your paraphrasing makes it sound like a bad thing. Nothing in your scenario is a bad thing.

First, the price. Well, the fact is it's silly to suggest that price isn't of primary importance in any retail operation. If a Costco member went to Costco and didn't see a better price than he could get at a dealer, well, he wouldn't be too happy, would he?

Second, "it has to have this and that". Well, ok. This is bad? Costco is trying to make sure that they offer something that represents lot of bang for the buck. As a member, that's pretty much exactly what I want their buyer to be doing.

Third, "you have to take it back". Hmmm. Ok, in other words, Mr. Supplier, it's not in your best interet to ship junk. It's a great strategy to apply quality pressure to the manufacturer, and it has worked with all sorts of products. It's simply not practical to have Costco put a Quality Assurance team in every plant for every product they sell? So you apply pressure where it hurts - in the wallet.

Finally, "Deal?" Did I miss the part about the Costco buyer holding a gun to the spa manufacturer's head? These are big boys and girls, and if they don't think they can turn a profit with a Costco deal then they shouldn't take the deal.

>> "They have NOT held the supplier's feet to the fire to build in the quality but instead they've insulated themselves from quality issues with a policy that they'll give people their $ back and charge back the supplier for the spa."

Uh, forcing the supplier to take back customer returns is the most severe possible way to hold their feet to the fire on quality. Would you have Costco hire spa quality assurance teams and put them in the manufacturer's facilities to monitor quality processes? Would you have them do this for every product they sell. Do your spa dealers have their own quality people at the Sundance or D1 factories?

Ridiculous. You are not being practical.

>> Some have mistakenly thought this would force the supplier to build a better spa..."

No, you don't understand. No one can "force' a manufacturer to do ANYTHING. The policy simply establishes a CONSEQUENCE for providing a poor product to Costco customers. It's real simple. You provide the sound, good product you've claimed you will provide, and you'll get paid the agreed-to amount. You provide substandard material, you eat it, not the Costco member. That's exactly what they SHOULD be doing. There wil always be SOME level of returns. If the supplier is smart they will find a way to provide a product that has a return rate that works economically. If they fail, IT'S NOT COSTCO'S FAULT.

>> "but its always a supplier hurting for business who first has to meet items 1 and 2 which are pushed VERY hard to the point that they just don’t have the leeway left to handle item #3 which is something that isn’t an issue today but is a “we’ll tackle that when it rears it ugly head later” issue."

Aw, poor babies. How about the spa makers start acting like professional businesses, figure out what their costs are, and learn to control their proceses so that they provide a decent and consistent product at the agreed to price? You seem to be arguing that this is somehow a Costco failing! That makes no sense!

Keys and the others had problems. Costco may have sped up their demise by doing exactly what you claim they didn't do - held their feet to the fire. As far as I can see, If you're in a manufacturing business and don't know how to make a consistently good product, you should go under. Costco can't help that... they are not spa engineers or quality assurance people. But they can, and do, protect their members from getting poor product. This IS what they do, and they do it well.

>> "Costco will get it right when someone at corporate decides that #3 is as important as #1 and #2. Your guess is as good as mine as to when/if that will happen."

I'm sure the people at Costco will value your advice, but they are already doing it right. Costco in general doesn't sell low end stuff. Many of their house brand product are better than ANYTHING available elsewhere. Check out the tuna, for instance (canned for them by Bumblebee, and a much better product than Bumblebee brand)... and it costs MORE than name brand tuna, by the way. You criticize them for the sound business policies that protect their members and have enabled their success. Absurd!

[Roger]

Aw, poor babies. How about the spa makers start acting like professional businesses, figure out what their costs are, and learn to control their proceses so that they provide a decent and consistent product at the agreed to price? You seem to be arguing that this is somehow a Costco failing! That makes no sense!

I hope so to. Maybe then the cost will be where it needs to be that the quality will improve. This should get them out of the hot tub market and back to lawn furniture and tuna. Because they won't be able to find a supplier for 3-4 thousand dollar tubs.

[n1oty]

Aw, poor babies. How about the spa makers start acting like professional businesses, figure out what their costs are, and learn to control their proceses so that they provide a decent and consistent product at the agreed to price? You seem to be arguing that this is somehow a Costco failing! That makes no sense!

Keys and the others had problems. Costco may have sped up their demise by doing exactly what you claim they didn't do - held their feet to the fire. As far as I can see, If you're in a manufacturing business and don't know how to make a consistently good product, you should go under. Costco can't help that... they are not spa engineers or quality assurance people. But they can, and do, protect their members from getting poor product. This IS what they do, and they do it well.

>> "Costco will get it right when someone at corporate decides that #3 is as important as #1 and #2. Your guess is as good as mine as to when/if that will happen."

I'm sure the people at Costco will value your advice, but they are already doing it right. Costco in general doesn't sell low end stuff. Many of their house brand product are better than ANYTHING available elsewhere. Check out the tuna, for instance (canned for them by Bumblebee, and a much better product than Bumblebee brand)... and it costs MORE than name brand tuna, by the way. You criticize them for the sound business policies that protect their members and have enabled their success. Absurd!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is easy for you to say. We all understand that the prior manufacturers were all guilty. It didn't matter whether it was Hydro, Keys, Infinity or the others. They all were to blame. However, it is ludicrous for you to postulate that somehow Costco is blameless. They may not have realized that they had a serious problem when their first tub supplier went BK and left a LOT of people in the lurch and without warranty support. They may have still been clueless when their second tub supplier went BK and screwed a lot of customers. However, we are now at the point where half a dozen or more manufacturers have followed the exact same play book. It is disingenuous at best for Costco to essentially stick their head in the sand, claim not to know what is going on with their various tub manufacturers and pretend that somehow it is not of their doing. I'm sorry, but they are an accessory to the crime, whether they care to admit it or not.

The pro's on this board will undoubtedly recall a few years back when Costco actually had a deal with Hot Springs and marketed the HS Highlife. Admittedly, this was an older HS design that was due to go out to pasture, but it was a solid tub with a solid reputation sold at a reasonable price. It didn't last with Costco though. Costco tried to squeeze HS on price and HS said no. Costco simply moved on to the less reputable side of this business and put their slippers under someone else's bed. Sorry, Costco knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care. They had a decent quality tub from a decent manufacturer and were content to walk away from HS and get in bed with the dogs. Costco knowingly walked away from a quality manufacturer.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

>> "Will they ever get it right? I'm not sure but I know what they have gotten wrong so far by repeating the same formula over and over."

I don't see that Costco has gotten anything "wrong".

Costco has built their company into a major retailer, with perhaps the best overall reputation for Customer support, precisely by sticking to their formula that works.

It works very well in general but it hasn't worked for spas.

>> "They have prioritized to their suppliers the important aspects of hot tubs this way, 1-price, 2-feaures, 3-quality."

News flash. Every product - EVERY product - is designed to meet a price point. If it wasn't, hot tubs would would have hydroformed stainless steel shells, stainless plumbing and mil-spec components. And no one could afford them.

Costco, by the way, doesn't prioritize things as you've said. The priority is, #1 - price, #1 - features, and #1 - quality. In other words, if a supplier doesn't agree to ALL THREE, they don't get the Costco deal.

Exactly, they all should be priority #1 but that has NOT historically been the case with spas that they've sold over most of the last decade. You may not like it but its reality and just because they are great in other things has no bearing on the history they have with spas.

>> " “it has to sell for $4999, it has to have this and that for bling and you guys take back anything the customer doesn’t want. Deal?"."

You were there for that meeting? Wow, I guess you must be pretty well connected.

But I do think you might be close, although your paraphrasing makes it sound like a bad thing. Nothing in your scenario is a bad thing.

You're right, it’s not a bad thing if the spas that are then build are well made. Costco is not in the spa business, they are in the spa retailing business and they have failed time and time again in delivering a good product yet haven't changed their pattern. That is where the fault is.

>> Some have mistakenly thought this would force the supplier to build a better spa..."

No, you don't understand. No one can "force' a manufacturer to do ANYTHING. The policy simply establishes a CONSEQUENCE for providing a poor product to Costco customers. It's real simple. You provide the sound, good product you've claimed you will provide, and you'll get paid the agreed-to amount. You provide substandard material, you eat it, not the Costco member. That's exactly what they SHOULD be doing. There wil always be SOME level of returns. If the supplier is smart they will find a way to provide a product that has a return rate that works economically. If they fail, IT'S NOT COSTCO'S FAULT.

I was responding to something I've seen said countless times; that because of the return policy the suppliers will follow through with a quality product because otherwise they will be doomed. I wish I had $5 for every time someone has made that statement. The reality is that the return policy has NOT policed the supplier into providing a quality product. It’s a good policy to have but it would behoove Costco to have spas that don’t need to be returned as their main line of defense and the return policy as a backup to that.

>> "Costco will get it right when someone at corporate decides that #3 is as important as #1 and #2. Your guess is as good as mine as to when/if that will happen."

I'm sure the people at Costco will value your advice, but they are already doing it right. Costco in general doesn't sell low end stuff. Many of their house brand product are better than ANYTHING available elsewhere. Check out the tuna, for instance (canned for them by Bumblebee, and a much better product than Bumblebee brand)... and it costs MORE than name brand tuna, by the way. You criticize them for the sound business policies that protect their members and have enabled their success. Absurd!

They are doing it right 99% of the time (and LOL, I actually do know that their in house branded tuna is more $). The fact that they do a good job selling pretzels and books has nothing to do with the poor history they’ve had with spas.

[hot_water]

>> "It works very well in general but it hasn't worked for spas."

I think it has. Many others that have tubs that work fine probably think it has. And those that had trouble and returned their spa, well, I haven't heard any cases of anyone that felt Costco didn't support them properly.

>> "Exactly, they all should be priority #1 but that has NOT historically been the case with spas..."

Uh, it has been exactly the case. Costco is not the Quality Assurance department for the manufacturer. Costco provides a guarantee of quality to their Customer by offering a full unlimited warranty. A full unlimited lifetime cash-back refund policy. Hello?!? How can you do better than that? Do you expect Costco to control the design specs and manufacturing proceses on tubs? How about the jillion other things they sell? Unrealistic.

You can't really define quality other than to say it needs to be a product from one of the (overpriced) manufacturers you favor. Costco defines quality by saying, "It needs to satisfy our members".

I like Costco's definition better.

>> "You're right, it’s not a bad thing if the spas that are then build are well made. Costco is not in the spa business, they are in the spa retailing business and they have failed time and time again in delivering a good product yet haven't changed their pattern. That is where the fault is."

What do you suggest they change their pattern to? The problem, if there is one (I remain unconvinced that there aren't a lot of satisfied Costco spa owners out there - I can't be the only one) lies solely with the manufacturer.

>> "They are doing it right 99% of the time (and LOL, I actually do know that their in house branded tuna is more $). The fact that they do a good job selling pretzels and books has nothing to do with the poor history they’ve had with spas"

There is no "99% of the time". The business practice is either right or it's not. There is nothing magical about the spa manufacturers that somehow dictates a different set of rules apply to them.

The problem is NOT with Costco. Industry people don't want to admit this. Every thing you claim that Costco is doing wrong, is in fact exctly what they are doing RIGHT. Their policies protect themselves and their members. And they even protect the suppliers -- if the supplier can deliver the goods they promised, they get a lot of direct sales, and a contract for the following year. There is absolutely nothing - NOTHING - wrong with Costco's policies.

Tha fault lies with the mangement of the Hydro and Keys and the others. I don't see Matsushita Electric (Panasonic) or Sonicare (Philips) going under, and they both sell stuff exclusively made in "Costco Packs". To blame the retailer becasue the supplier provided bad merchandise and the (righteously intolerant) consumer returned it is ludicrous.

You know, if the spa industry wanted to compete, they should price their stuff a little more realistically, give people a bit more value, and maybe lengthen their warranty to the point where it becomes a non-issue.

But this is a diary of one poster's experience. You guys seem to come out of the woodwork to turn every post about a Costco spa into a dissertation on how crappy they are, how they drove the suppliers out of business, how they sell price point spas (which everyone does), etc. Costco must be scaring the heck out of you.

[hot_water]

>> "They may not have realized that they had a serious problem when their first tub supplier went BK and left a LOT of people in the lurch and without warranty support. They may have still been clueless when their second tub supplier went BK and screwed a lot of customers."

Costco didn't screw anyone. All that was necessary was for a Customer to call Costco CS. They arranged warranty support. And they continued to take the tubs back, even though after a certain point it was on their nickel.

Are you arguing that Costco drove the tub makers out of business and caused their NON-Costco customers to be wthout warranty? No, no, no. The manufacturers inked the deal with Costco, no one forced them. Their inability to succeed in business screwed their customers.

I guess you could also blame Toyota for driving GM into bankruptcy.

>> "The pro's on this board will undoubtedly recall a few years back when Costco actually had a deal with Hot Springs and marketed the HS Highlife. Admittedly, this was an older HS design that was due to go out to pasture, but it was a solid tub with a solid reputation sold at a reasonable price. It didn't last with Costco though. Costco tried to squeeze HS on price and HS said no......They had a decent quality tub from a decent manufacturer and were content to walk away from HS and get in bed with the dogs. Costco knowingly walked away from a quality manufacturer."

The non-pros remember it too. That spa was overpriced and underfeatured, like a lot of HS spas. I wasn't there during those discussions, but I wouldn't doubt if Costco tried to get Watkins to be more aggressive on the price just as you surmised. The thing wasn't moving. Cutting the price is a sound and proven way to help that little reality. And what's wrong, exactly, with that? Are you suggeting that Costco should continue to market a product that was overpriced and not selling well? That doesn't sound like a good strategy to me. On the other hand, Watkins didn't want to accomodate the request, and that is fine, too. It happens every day in business. Costco is in the value business. They aren't inclined to sell items that don't represent a strong value proposition. You may have your opinion on that tub, but as I recall it was selling for between $5k and $6k and had a very limited feature set. Again, you may like the Watkins product but Costco members, who vote with their wallet, didn't - at least not at that price.

[reeffreak]

Hot water- Reading through your posts I found myself in agreement with every single point. Clearly you get it- and I think you'd agree that there is huge potential here. I've written elsewhere that most businesses spend 90% of their time studying why consumers buy their product. The most successful businesses spend 90% of their time studying why consumers DON'T buy their product. Taking this approach, there are valuable lessons to be learned by studying the big box shopper. The sentiment on this board is that Costco is strictly a price play. The value equation of the typical shopper is much, much more complex, and there are simple strategies that mfg's and dealers alike could adopt that would level the playing field.

Running a FUD campaign on this forum against proven business models that challenge the institution will ALWAYS be a loser. If this forum is representative of overall industry sentiment (and that's a big assumption-), the opportunities for whatever mfg / distribution network that chooses to step up to the plate are endless here.

Thanks again for your posts. I enjoyed them.

[hot_water]

>> "Thanks again for your posts. I enjoyed them."

It's nice to note your support. Thank you. I'm not in the spa industry, I don't work for Costco... and I don't even (currently) own costco stock. It's just that the FUD arguments and pseudo logic on these threads does kind of insult one's intelligence, doesn't it? Having said my peace I'll crawl back under my rock for a while. You, Matt, and some of the others do a great job of calling these guys out on this stuff.

I do apologize to Matt for contributing to the hijacking of his thread. He's trying to present an unbiased, factual account of his experience, which is more valuable than all this incessant nonsense... I suspect 99% of my comments were well-understood and required no verbalization to the many readers that never post.

[n1oty]

>> "Thanks again for your posts. I enjoyed them."

It's nice to note your support. Thank you. I'm not in the spa industry, I don't work for Costco... and I don't even (currently) own costco stock. It's just that the FUD arguments and pseudo logic on these threads does kind of insult one's intelligence, doesn't it? Having said my peace I'll crawl back under my rock for a while. You, Matt, and some of the others do a great job of calling these guys out on this stuff.

I do apologize to Matt for contributing to the hijacking of his thread. He's trying to present an unbiased, factual account of his experience, which is more valuable than all this incessant nonsense... I suspect 99% of my comments were well-understood and required no verbalization to the many readers that never post.

I love the logic of this post . You are not in the hot tub industry and don't work for Costco, yet you posit that the information you, Matt and Reef post is unbiased and factual, and that all the information advanced by the pro's here (including independent's with no axe to grind) is "incessant nonsense". So be it. Now I truly understand why I have become so busy with repair work even though the economy has tanked. At least I'll give Matt credit for one thing. This diary can be a useful tool, provided he is willing to keep it up for at least 5 or 6 years and provides regular updates.

Oh, first up today is a Costco sold hot tub whose frame came apart, settled and cracked all the manifolds and some plumbing. At $135 for the first half hour and $95 an hour thereafter, this will be a very nice day.

John

[Roger]

Somehow the fact that most of us who think Costco does a TERRIBLE job with choosing hot tubs to sell to its members is lost in all this babble about how they are going to be the savior of this economy. The point is missed when anyone thinks that us "resident pro's" are against big box retailers. I shop at them all the time!! There are allot of things that are just fine even though the part number is just slightly different than the one sold down the street for a little more money. Why this hate mentality towards those of us who see the differences in tubs and electronics at the box stores somehow fosters into a throbbing sence that we hate the stores is behond me. Regular joes may not see the difference and that is fine for us who benifit from the difference. But those who make the comparision to a higher quality product are the only ones who loose, not today or this month but in the next few years they may or may not come to realize the differences. And understand why they sell them for less money.

But just so accurate information is out there those of us in the know have the differences in hand. And those consumers who want the information can always rely on getting it here. Retailers who demand lower prices from manufacturers WILL get lesser quality. Plain and simple American economics.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

>> "The pro's on this board will undoubtedly recall a few years back when Costco actually had a deal with Hot Springs and marketed the HS Highlife. Admittedly, this was an older HS design that was due to go out to pasture, but it was a solid tub with a solid reputation sold at a reasonable price. It didn't last with Costco though. Costco tried to squeeze HS on price and HS said no......They had a decent quality tub from a decent manufacturer and were content to walk away from HS and get in bed with the dogs. Costco knowingly walked away from a quality manufacturer."

The non-pros remember it too. That spa was overpriced and underfeatured, like a lot of HS spas. I wasn't there during those discussions, but I wouldn't doubt if Costco tried to get Watkins to be more aggressive on the price just as you surmised. The thing wasn't moving. Cutting the price is a sound and proven way to help that little reality. And what's wrong, exactly, with that? Are you suggeting that Costco should continue to market a product that was overpriced and not selling well? That doesn't sound like a good strategy to me. On the other hand, Watkins didn't want to accomodate the request, and that is fine, too. It happens every day in business. Costco is in the value business. They aren't inclined to sell items that don't represent a strong value proposition. You may have your opinion on that tub, but as I recall it was selling for between $5k and $6k and had a very limited feature set. Again, you may like the Watkins product but Costco members, who vote with their wallet, didn't - at least not at that price.

At last, from your own keyboard no less. That is a perfect example of why you don't get it but I didn't think you'd show it so definitively. The Hot Spring wasn't for you or most Costco spa shoppers because all you guys care about is price and features. You're too shortsighted to realize that quality doesn't just fall in line with the other two.

That HS offering may not haev been as shiny or cheap as the one you bought but I'd estimate that 95+% of them will be in operation at year 10 while 50+% of the Costco offerings like Keys, Infinity, Hydro ... (Strong to be determined but if we're taking bets ...) are in landfills, given away as junk or returned to Costco. In 10 or 12 years go to the home of one of those Hot Spring owners and tell him the spa working in his back yard was overpriced and under featured. Then go next door and tell his neighbor that the Costco spa he bought the same year was a better deal and he'll probably look at you and tell you he got rid of it for 4 years earlier to the dump or to someone he saw on Craiglist looking for a freebie old spa. Value isn't just about price, many other things like Quality, up-time and longevity play a key role in the definition.

-Watkins could have given it more features but the price would have gone up and that wouldn't have worked for Costco.

-It could have skimped on quality and met the price point and features but Watkins won't sell its soul for extra sales because it doesn't need Costco sales to bail them out.

-Costco shoppers just care about price and bling.

In some way I wonder if the return policy is at the heart of Costco's history of selling poor quality spas. The customers don't worry so much if its junk because they can return it so they only care about price and bling. Costco doesn't worry so much because they just charge back and move on to another supplier. The suppliers (Infinity, Keys.. and now Strong and even Cal) are hurting for business and sell their souls for current sales so they cringe but accept the Costco demands.

[hot_water]

At last, from your own keyboard no less. That is a perfect example of why you don't get it but I didn't think you'd show it so definitively. The Hot Spring wasn't for you or most Costco spa shoppers because all you guys care about is price and features. You're too shortsighted to realize that quality doesn't just fall in line with the other two.

That HS offering may not haev been as shiny or cheap as the one you bought but I'd estimate that 95+% of them will be in operation at year 10 while 50+% of the Costco offerings like Keys, Infinity, Hydro ... (Strong to be determined but if we're taking bets ...) are in landfills, given away as junk or returned to Costco. In 10 or 12 years go to the home of one of those Hot Spring owners and tell him the spa working in his back yard was overpriced and under featured. Then go next door and tell his neighbor that the Costco spa he bought the same year was a better deal and he'll probably look at you and tell you he got rid of it for 4 years earlier to the dump or to someone he saw on Craiglist looking for a freebie old spa. Value isn't just about price, many other things like Quality, up-time and longevity play a key role in the definition.

-Watkins could have given it more features but the price would have gone up and that wouldn't have worked for Costco.

-It could have skimped on quality and met the price point and features but Watkins won't sell its soul for extra sales because it doesn't need Costco sales to bail them out.

-Costco shoppers just care about price and bling.

In some way I wonder if the return policy is at the heart of Costco's history of selling poor quality spas. The customers don't worry so much if its junk because they can return it so they only care about price and bling. Costco doesn't worry so much because they just charge back and move on to another supplier. The suppliers (Infinity, Keys.. and now Strong and even Cal) are hurting for business and sell their souls for current sales so they cringe but accept the Costco demands.

There is so much about your post that indicates a lack of understanding that I'm afraid , even as verbose as I am, I can't take the time to respond. And besides, it really doesn't matter, anyway. I don't think you want to hear it.

Here's the only additional point I want to make. You guys criticize Costco and offer the quality arguments and the energy useage and longevity and all that. Fine. The bottom line is, lots of people choose Costco. It may come as a surprise, but we are not idiots.

Those of us that choose to engage you in discussion are telling you EXACTLY WHY we're not buying your Hotsprings and Sundances and D1s. We are telling you that the value proposition of these high end tubs isn't good enough. We are telling you that your quality arguments are nebulous and unverifiable. We are telling you that we don't trust the quality of these products at all, and hence, highly value the Costco return policy.

Your response is that we don't care about quality, we don't have your experience, and we're wrong.

It's America. You can hold that opinion all day long. You can post and refute and argue and spin, all you like. In the end, someone else is going to get the money.

I would think it far more productive for you to encourage the manufacturers to increase their value proposition, innovate a bit more, provide less risk to the consumer, and in general.... compete.

But you let me know how you do with your strategy of telling the consumer he is wrong.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

There is so much about your post that indicates a lack of understanding that I'm afraid , even as verbose as I am, I can't take the time to respond. And besides, it really doesn't matter, anyway. I don't think you want to hear it.

I guess we're even there because I scratch my head at some of your comments as well.

Here's the only additional point I want to make. You guys criticize Costco and offer the quality arguments and the energy useage and longevity and all that. Fine. The bottom line is, lots of people choose Costco. It may come as a surprise, but we are not idiots.

I never thought u were an idiot. The reality is smart people don't always make smart choices.

Those of us that choose to engage you in discussion are telling you EXACTLY WHY we're not buying your Hotsprings and Sundances and D1s. We are telling you that the value proposition of these high end tubs isn't good enough. We are telling you that your quality arguments are nebulous and unverifiable. We are telling you that we don't trust the quality of these products at all, and hence, highly value the Costco return policy.

And plenty of people that choose to engage you are telling you EXACTLY what you're missing in your deision making. We are telling you that your quality arguments aren't based on the history of Costco's spa offereings. We're not pulling this out of our ...

Your response is that we don't care about quality, we don't have your experience, and we're wrong.

No, we're telling you that you're being blinded by the price and bling. In reality it is difficult for consumers to really get a good feel for what is good and bad in this indsutry in just a few weeks of researching. Thats why some of us come here to pass on what we have experienced.

It's America. You can hold that opinion all day long. You can post and refute and argue and spin, all you like. In the end, someone else is going to get the money.

I would think it far more productive for you to encourage the manufacturers to increase their value proposition, innovate a bit more, provide less risk to the consumer, and in general.... compete.

Many of the manufacturers out there are making a great product with great value built in already.

But you let me know how you do with your strategy of telling the consumer he is wrong.

I'm not exactly known for telling everyone they are wrong but I don't hesitate to give my opinion either. If I worried about the fact that someone won't like my post I might as well not log in.

[Roger]

There is so much about your post that indicates a lack of understanding that I'm afraid , even as verbose as I am, I can't take the time to respond. And besides, it really doesn't matter, anyway. I don't think you want to hear it.

Here's the only additional point I want to make. You guys criticize Costco and offer the quality arguments and the energy useage and longevity and all that. Fine. The bottom line is, lots of people choose Costco. It may come as a surprise, but we are not idiots.

Those of us that choose to engage you in discussion are telling you EXACTLY WHY we're not buying your Hotsprings and Sundances and D1s. We are telling you that the value proposition of these high end tubs isn't good enough. We are telling you that your quality arguments are nebulous and unverifiable. We are telling you that we don't trust the quality of these products at all, and hence, highly value the Costco return policy.

Your response is that we don't care about quality, we don't have your experience, and we're wrong.

It's America. You can hold that opinion all day long. You can post and refute and argue and spin, all you like. In the end, someone else is going to get the money.

I would think it far more productive for you to encourage the manufacturers to increase their value proposition, innovate a bit more, provide less risk to the consumer, and in general.... compete.

But you let me know how you do with your strategy of telling the consumer he is wrong.

Somehow we are suppose to think the 3-4 happy Costco spa customers that have a tub more than a year old, are smarter than the 3-4 hundred unhappy ones?

It's to bad we can't encourage the manufacturers to stop lowering there quality and selling bulk to places like Costco. It may acualy help the spa industy as less people don't get that bad taste in there mouth from buying a POS from Costco and the like. That's what would be productive to the industry.

[sandi]

It's to bad we can't encourage the manufacturers to stop lowering there quality and selling bulk to places like Costco. It may acualy help the spa industy as less people don't get that bad taste in there mouth from buying a POS from Costco and the like. That's what would be productive to the industry.

It's too bad that this thread has deteriorated into the same old ongoing battle. Someone let me know when the discussion gets back to its original topic. In the meantime, is there a way to stop getting email notification of replies???

Sandi

[n1oty]

>>>It's America. You can hold that opinion all day long. You can post and refute and argue and spin, all you like. In the end, someone else is going to get the money.

<<<<<<

Yes, I will.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

It's too bad that this thread has deteriorated into the same old ongoing battle. Someone let me know when the discussion gets back to its original topic. In the meantime, is there a way to stop getting email notification of replies???

Sandi

Aint that the truth.

Try going to "My Controls" and then choosing "e-mail settings" and it should allow you to disable the notifications. I didn't even know you could get alerted to post responses like that.

(Roger will probably post the same instructions momentarily; he's always a step late.)

[Roger]

I In the meantime, is there a way to stop getting email notification of replies???

Sandi

Control Panel, Options, Email Settings. Uncheck the box that says "Enable e-mail notification by default and use the drop down to choose "No Email Notification"

(The boondocks of Northern Minnesota have a tendency to have a slower ISP)