Is It Really Possible To Have A Non-toxic Spa?

[nochem]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and new to spas. I am shopping for a spa but prior to purchasing I am trying to figure out the world of spa sanitizers. Here is the problem, I am what many call "chemically sensitive" I have allergies to most chemicals...have been that way for years. It's a real pain in the neck.

Chlorine gives me dry itchy skin. And the smell gives me a headache. Have heard about Rain Forest Blue.....but after reading the data sheet on it that doesn't look all that safe either; looks like a fungicide they spray on crops(copper sulfate pentahydrate). I am highly allergic to pesticides......can't even spray my own backyard for spiders without it triggering a migraine. Not sure Rain Forest Blue would have the same effect but I am suspicious.

Then there are the ozone makers....well they appear to only do part of the job....and I read that Ozone isn't good for your lungs, really rips up the cells(thats really great)....so you need to install a switch and have it off when your in the spa. Looks like there are some extra powerful ozone maker out there from startup companies....but it's hard to know what to believe on the website claims.

Then I heard about UV...but the companies that sell the units don't seem like they have been around for long....then their is the light bulb replacement which I am sure isn't all that cheap. Also, how do you install them in the spa.

Can someone out there help??? There has gotta be a solution. If not I guess I will just pass on the whole spa purchase idea.

Thanks much!

[The Pup]

You will still need a sanitizer.

I am currently using a 3-step bromine system with a dual-cartridge Spa Frog (bromine and mineral) and a UV Ozinator (I use bromine because my work may require me to travel at any time). With this current system, I am able to maintain a proper sanitizer level (at 0.5-to-1.0 ppm) with low bromine demand. I also use only very small amounts of MPS to shock the spa after each use or at least weekly (usually 1 oz every other use and usually not more than 2 oz per week depending on the bromine readings) and 1 hour of filtering every 12 hours at 100F (the ozinator runs during the spa's filtration cycle).

I am also noticing very little to no bromine odor and my wife, who has very sensitive skin, has had no issues. However, I do not know if this system will work for you...I am told that some folks may have reactions to MPS and even small amounts of bromine. We use the spa about five times per week for 30-to-50 minutes on average.

The cost has been very reasonable to me...on average, I am replacing one Spa Frog bromine cartridge every 2-to-3 months (cartridge set on 3) and the mineral cartridge every 4 months as directed. I buy all of my spa chemicals in bulk including the Spa Frog refills online at about $6 per cartridge. I buy 38% MPS in a 25 lbs container which will last for many years...same with water balancing chemicals too. I just keep refilling the smaller marketed-for-Spa-use containers with the much cheaper bulk chemicals which do the exact same thing. This method has saved me a great deal of money over the 30+ years I have been at it.

[Nitro]

If maintained properly, Chlorine will not smell bad or cause dry itchy skin. I bet your bad experience with chlorine comes from public pools. There is a big difference between a public pool, and a private spa, when it comes to the water quality. Chlorine probably causes the LEAST sensitivity issues. Usually, it's when too much (or too little) chlorine is used and/or the pH is out of range. Also, the high preasure jets can cause dry itchy skin, because it removes a layer of dead skin. That's actually a good thing, and should go away after continued use.

Bromine seems to cause more sensitivity than Chlorine. And once you start Bromine you can't switch to anything else, unless you change your water. There's also another method called Nature2, that uses Silver Ions and MPS. But MPS has been known to cause sensitivity in some people. Therefore, I highly recommend you try using Chlorine first. I'll bet you'll be amazed by the results. If you want more info on how to do it correctly, check out my Maintenance Guide below.

[chem geek]

If you are sensitive to both chlorine and bromine, then Baqua/biguanide/PHMB is an option for you. Since you replace the water regularly in a spa anyway, the problems normally associated with Baqua are less likely to occur or can be handled by a Spa Flush product once a year. Baqua isn't cheap, but it is an effective sanitizer and is less likely to cause sensitivities. It uses hydrogen peroxide as its oxidizer, but that can be added after the soak to minimize your exposure to it.

Even a chlorine system might work for you if you add the chlorine after the soak so that when you first get in you have only 1 ppm FC, but if you are very sensitive that might not work. As for bromine, it's harder to have the level be low during the soak as its designed for a more consistent level (at least with the 3-step floating feeder system).

Richard

[Nitro]

I forgot to mention Biguanide. It acts like an antibiotic. However, I would only use that as a last resort. Over time (a few years) the tub could harbor bacteria that becomes immune to it, and will form White/Pink slimmy stuff. Also, if you have city water with chlorine, the water could turn into a brown goo. I don't mean to scare you, because if used correctly, you should have no problems for a few years. But as I said, it should be a last resort.

[nochem]

If maintained properly, Chlorine will not smell bad or cause dry itchy skin. I bet your bad experience with chlorine comes from public pools. There is a big difference between a public pool, and a private spa, when it comes to the water quality. Chlorine probably causes the LEAST sensitivity issues. Usually, it's when too much (or too little) chlorine is used and/or the pH is out of range. Also, the high preasure jets can cause dry itchy skin, because it removes a layer of dead skin. That's actually a good thing, and should go away after continued use.

Bromine seems to cause more sensitivity than Chlorine. And once you start Bromine you can't switch to anything else, unless you change your water. There's also another method called Nature2, that uses Silver Ions and MPS. But MPS has been known to cause sensitivity in some people. Therefore, I highly recommend you try using Chlorine first. I'll bet you'll be amazed by the results. If you want more info on how to do it correctly, check out my Maintenance Guide below.

Thanks....What is MPS?

[nochem]

If you are sensitive to both chlorine and bromine, then Baqua/biguanide/PHMB is an option for you. Since you replace the water regularly in a spa anyway, the problems normally associated with Baqua are less likely to occur or can be handled by a Spa Flush product once a year. Baqua isn't cheap, but it is an effective sanitizer and is less likely to cause sensitivities. It uses hydrogen peroxide as its oxidizer, but that can be added after the soak to minimize your exposure to it.

Even a chlorine system might work for you if you add the chlorine after the soak so that when you first get in you have only 1 ppm FC, but if you are very sensitive that might not work. As for bromine, it's harder to have the level be low during the soak as its designed for a more consistent level (at least with the 3-step floating feeder system).

Richard

I was concerned about Bagua since the active ingredient is a pesticide:Polyhexamethylene biguanidine. And since I am allergic to pesticides I was skeptical. Thoughts?

What's you thought on Hydrogen Peroxide?

[Nitro]

Thanks....What is MPS?

MPS is Potassium Monopersulfate (or Non-Chlorine Shock). It's considered an oxidizer, because it oxidizes organic waste. However, it does not kill bugs, so it's not a sanitizer. Chlorine is a sanitizer and oxidizer because it kill bugs and oxidizes waste.

IMPORTANT! You need both, a sanitizer and oxidizer in your tub. Keep that in mind when reading about so called "Chemical Free" methods. Ask what is used as the sanitizer. Nine times out of ten, you'll find out it's Chlorine.

[nochem]

Thanks....What is MPS?

MPS is Potassium Monopersulfate (or Non-Chlorine Shock). It's considered an oxidizer, because it oxidizes organic waste. However, it does not kill bugs, so it's not a sanitizer. Chlorine is a sanitizer and oxidizer because it kill bugs and oxidizes waste.

IMPORTANT! You need both, a sanitizer and oxidizer in your tub. Keep that in mind when reading about so called "Chemical Free" methods. Ask what is used as the sanitizer. Nine times out of ten, you'll find out it's Chlorine.

So will an Ozone generator take care of one of these? What do you think about Hydrogen Peroxide?

[Nitro]

So will an Ozone generator take care of one of these? What do you think about Hydrogen Peroxide?

An Ozone generator is an Oxidizer. Hydrogen Peroxide is also an Oxidizer. I believe Hydrogen Peroxide is a sanitizer also, but only at HIGH levels, TOO high to be safe for soaking.

You really only have four choices. Chlorine, Nature2, Bromine and Biguanide.

If I were you I would do this:

1. Try Chlorine first for a month or two.

2. If you're not happy with Chlorine, try Nature2.

3. If you are sensitive to both these methods, then switch to Biguanide.

If you really are sensitive to Chlorine I doubt Bromine will be any better, so I woudn't bother with it.

QUESTION: How do you know you're sensitive to Chlorine?

[nochem]

So will an Ozone generator take care of one of these? What do you think about Hydrogen Peroxide?

An Ozone generator is an Oxidizer. Hydrogen Peroxide is also an Oxidizer. I believe Hydrogen Peroxide is a sanitizer also, but only at HIGH levels, TOO high to be safe for soaking.

You really only have four choices. Chlorine, Nature2, Bromine and Biguanide.

If I were you I would do this:

1. Try Chlorine first for a month or two.

2. If you're not happy with Chlorine, try Nature2.

3. If you are sensitive to both these methods, then switch to Biguanide.

If you really are sensitive to Chlorine I doubt Bromine will be any better, so I woudn't bother with it.

QUESTION: How do you know you're sensitive to Chlorine?

I wet tested a spa yesterday in the store. The rep set it up with minimum chorine. I still smelled the stuff. Didn't have a problem with headaches, etc. But today my skin feels pretty dry and slightly itchy. Thoughts?

[The Pup]

Using Nitro's Chlorine "system" is indeed worth trying. If done properly, you will save money and have an extremely low smell and skin irritant answer to maintaining your spa's sanitizer levels.

I have used the same approach in the past for many years with no issues or concerns.

Edit: If your skin is truly sensitive to Chlorine (as applied in the below referenced method), then perhaps even a mildly chlorinated spa is not compatible with your condition.

Reference:

Nitro's Approach To Water Maintenance

A guide to Water Balance and Sanitation using Chlorine

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634

[Nitro]

I wet tested a spa yesterday in the store. The rep set it up with minimum chorine. I still smelled the stuff. Didn't have a problem with headaches, etc. But today my skin feels pretty dry and slightly itchy. Thoughts?

Minimum Chlorine is NOT always good, and may cause the smell to be worse. If you use the correct amount of Chlorine, it has a fresh clean smell, not a strong Chlorine odor. I get complements from my guests a lot about my spa water. They are surprised when I tell them I use regular old bleach (i.e. Chlorine).

As I said dry itchy skin could be caused from the jets exfoliating your skin. I remember having a little dry itchy skin when I first started tubbing, but it went away after a few times. Borates will help condition the water making it feel silky and less drying to the skin. Also, there are moisturizers you can I add to the water, although I've never used any.

My point is that dry itchy skin can (and more times than not) be caused by something other than the Chlorine. People just assume it's the Chlorine (Chemicals). The choice is yours, but I just don't want you to get turned off of Chlorine, when it could (and probably is) something else. With that said, you could have an issue with Jets in general, in which case a hot tub might not be for you. Maybe you can try one out a few more times, and see if the problem persists.

[chem geek]

I was concerned about Bagua since the active ingredient is a pesticide:Polyhexamethylene biguanidine. And since I am allergic to pesticides I was skeptical. Thoughts?

So will an Ozone generator take care of one of these? What do you think about Hydrogen Peroxide?

By definition, it will take a "pesticide" to kill bacteria and prevent algae growth. You simply cannot be allergic to ALL pesticides since they all operate by very different mechanisms. Copper ions are a pesticide, for example, and I doubt that you are allergic to it, but it doesn't kill bacteria very quickly.

MPS is potassium monopersulfate, aka non-chlorine shock. By itself, it is an oxidizer. When used in conjunction with Nature2 (silver and copper metal ions) it becomes a sanitizer suitable for hot tubs at high temperatures. However, as Nitro noted, it can be irritating to some people.

I personally think your best bet is to use Nature2 combined with chlorine using the Dichlor-then-bleach method, perhaps with a somewhat higher CYA level of around 50 ppm and then only soak with a starting FC of 1 ppm and add chlorine after the soak. You most likely won't even smell the chlorine in this situation, especially if you open up (uncover) the spa for 10 minutes prior to your soak. If that doesn't work for you, you could try the MPS method and if that doesn't work, then Baqua (not sure if that's compatible with N2 -- might have to remove the N2 in that case).

As noted in other posts, neither ozone nor hydrogen peroxide will kill pathogens in the bulk spa water.

Of course, it's just a spectrum of risk and if you are more concerned about your sensitive reaction than about hot tub itch, you could use one of the sanitizer-free methods and take your chances. Personally, I think if you at least have N2 that you are at a lower risk (though there have been a small number of reports of rash/itch with N2 alone and insufficient chlorine, but far fewer than without N2).

Richard

[Nitro]

Chem geek and I pretty much agree here. The only difference is, I would try just the Dichlor/Bleach method first to see if you really are sensitive to Chlorine (I'm not convinced you are, based on only one soak). But if it turns out you are, you can easily add N2 sticks to your tub, and let the Chlorine level drop. No need to change the water or anything. Just my opinion.

All this talk about Sanitizers, but don't forget your Water Balance. If your water isn't properly balanced, it can also cause skin irritation. Again, check out my Maintenance Guide. It has info you'll need, regardless of what method you use.

Good luck, and keep is updated.

[Dnepr Dave]

I am sensitive to odors and I use Nitro's dichlor/bleach method in my tub. My spa has an ozonator, all I smell is ozone in the first few seconds after I first open the cover. After that, there is no smell at all.

Dave

[The Pup]

There you have it.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Then there are the ozone makers....well they appear to only do part of the job....and I read that Ozone isn't good for your lungs, really rips up the cells(thats really great)....so you need to install a switch and have it off when your in the spa. Looks like there are some extra powerful ozone maker out there from startup companies....but it's hard to know what to believe on the website claims.

It is true that ozone is bad to breathe, but the new spas shut the ozone off as soon as you hit any of the topside buttons and leaves it off for about 20 or more minutes after you are done using the spa.

With a good ozone, nature 2 and clean people using the spa, you can keep your chlorine resdual very low, specially if used with non-chlorine shock (MPS) which is known as the low chlorine recipe. Be careful though, because some people are sensitive to MPS also.....Do you think you could tolerate one of the salt systems that produces chlorine or bromine? Maybe being the pure form of the product would be less irritating. We have several customers with the gensis system, there is no smell, unless the tub need to be shocked.

Good luck in your search, take your time, the information can be overwhellming and don't fall for the "All Natural" gimicks, read the fine print.

[gunner12]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and new to spas. I am shopping for a spa but prior to purchasing I am trying to figure out the world of spa sanitizers. Here is the problem, I am what many call "chemically sensitive" I have allergies to most chemicals...have been that way for years. It's a real pain in the neck.

Chlorine gives me dry itchy skin. And the smell gives me a headache. Have heard about Rain Forest Blue.....but after reading the data sheet on it that doesn't look all that safe either; looks like a fungicide they spray on crops(copper sulfate pentahydrate). I am highly allergic to pesticides......can't even spray my own backyard for spiders without it triggering a migraine. Not sure Rain Forest Blue would have the same effect but I am suspicious.

Then there are the ozone makers....well they appear to only do part of the job....and I read that Ozone isn't good for your lungs, really rips up the cells(thats really great)....so you need to install a switch and have it off when your in the spa. Looks like there are some extra powerful ozone maker out there from startup companies....but it's hard to know what to believe on the website claims.

Then I heard about UV...but the companies that sell the units don't seem like they have been around for long....then their is the light bulb replacement which I am sure isn't all that cheap. Also, how do you install them in the spa.

Can someone out there help??? There has gotta be a solution. If not I guess I will just pass on the whole spa purchase idea.

Thanks much!

Try looking at Aquafinesse, they only use salts and you only have to add a trace of chlorine each week. My wife and I have been using it for 18 months. Look at their web site.

[Private Shrink]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and new to spas. I am shopping for a spa but prior to purchasing I am trying to figure out the world of spa sanitizers. Here is the problem, I am what many call "chemically sensitive" I have allergies to most chemicals...have been that way for years. It's a real pain in the neck.

Chlorine gives me dry itchy skin. And the smell gives me a headache. Have heard about Rain Forest Blue.....but after reading the data sheet on it that doesn't look all that safe either; looks like a fungicide they spray on crops(copper sulfate pentahydrate). I am highly allergic to pesticides......can't even spray my own backyard for spiders without it triggering a migraine. Not sure Rain Forest Blue would have the same effect but I am suspicious.

Then there are the ozone makers....well they appear to only do part of the job....and I read that Ozone isn't good for your lungs, really rips up the cells(thats really great)....so you need to install a switch and have it off when your in the spa. Looks like there are some extra powerful ozone maker out there from startup companies....but it's hard to know what to believe on the website claims.

Then I heard about UV...but the companies that sell the units don't seem like they have been around for long....then their is the light bulb replacement which I am sure isn't all that cheap. Also, how do you install them in the spa.

Can someone out there help??? There has gotta be a solution. If not I guess I will just pass on the whole spa purchase idea.

Thanks much!

Try looking at Aquafinesse, they only use salts and you only have to add a trace of chlorine each week. My wife and I have been using it for 18 months. Look at their web site.

BaquaSpa is always criticized by the experts here, and I may someday agree with them. However, we started 3 years ago with BaquaSpa for the exact reasons you gave at the beginning, and we've been absolutely pleased. No smell, no irritation, sparking clean water. We do shower before use and don't use bathing suits, so that probably helps a great deal. And our tub is indoors, so lots of outdoor crap doesn't get in. I will be overjoyed if I never have to switch (drat that pink slime/white mold if it ever comes).

[Nitro]

PS,

I'd be willing to bet if you soaked in my tub, you wouldn't even know I'm using Chlorine. I'd also be willing to bet I spend less time (and a lot less money) maintaining my tub than you.

The biggest reason people get turned off from Chlorine is because they don't use enough. If your tub is well disinfected, you won't notice ANY chlorine smell.

To be honest, I find it silly (sad really) that all these people are looking for an alternative to Chlorine (maybe Bromine). Chlorine is the safest, cheapest and easist to use sanitizer there is, PERIOD! The ONLY reason to use bromine is if you leave the tub alone for long periods. Even then I believe a SWCG is the way to go.

IMHO Chlorine is King.

But what do I know.

[bart6453]

PS,

I'd be willing to bet if you soaked in my tub, you wouldn't even know I'm using Chlorine. I'd also be willing to bet I spend less time (and a lot less money) maintaining my tub than you.

The biggest reason people get turned off from Chlorine is because they don't use enough. If your tub is well disinfected, you won't notice ANY chlorine smell.

To be honest, I find it silly (sad really) that all these people are looking for an alternative to Chlorine (maybe Bromine). Chlorine is the safest, cheapest and easist to use sanitizer there is, PERIOD! The ONLY reason to use bromine is if you leave the tub alone for long periods. Even then I believe a SWCG is the way to go.

IMHO Chlorine is King.

But what do I know.

I agree with nitro...works great, price is right, and isn't rocket science.

[Private Shrink]

PS,

I'd be willing to bet if you soaked in my tub, you wouldn't even know I'm using Chlorine. I'd also be willing to bet I spend less time (and a lot less money) maintaining my tub than you.

The biggest reason people get turned off from Chlorine is because they don't use enough. If your tub is well disinfected, you won't notice ANY chlorine smell.

To be honest, I find it silly (sad really) that all these people are looking for an alternative to Chlorine (maybe Bromine). Chlorine is the safest, cheapest and easist to use sanitizer there is, PERIOD! The ONLY reason to use bromine is if you leave the tub alone for long periods. Even then I believe a SWCG is the way to go.

IMHO Chlorine is King.

But what do I know.

I have no reason not to believe your first point, that I might not know that you are using Chlorine if I soaked in your tub. I'll also concede that you probably spend less money than I do. But less time...I doubt it. I put in a few minutes once a week. It's so quick and easy that I sometimes feel guilty, LOL. That's why I'm willing to spend a little extra money. And I have perfect water with no odor or side effects. I am not putting down Chlorine, simply saying that done properly, BaquaSpa is laughably easy.

[Nitro]

I have no reason not to believe your first point, that I might not know that you are using Chlorine if I soaked in your tub. I'll also concede that you probably spend less money than I do. But less time...I doubt it. I put in a few minutes once a week. It's so quick and easy that I sometimes feel guilty, LOL. That's why I'm willing to spend a little extra money. And I have perfect water with no odor or side effects. I am not putting down Chlorine, simply saying that done properly, BaquaSpa is laughably easy.

If I were to add up the total amount of time per week I maintain my tub water, it would be about 5 mins. I bring a bottle of Chlorine to the tub when I soak. Then I squirt in the right amount after I get out, and cover it up. I'm at the point where I only check the FC/pH once a week. It doesn't get much easier than that. On my next water change I'll be trying out a SWCG. That should be interesting.

I'm glad BaquaSpa is working out for you (for now), but to consider it much easier to use than Chlorine is a mistake. It really isn't.

Happy tubbing.

[Private Shrink]

I have no reason not to believe your first point, that I might not know that you are using Chlorine if I soaked in your tub. I'll also concede that you probably spend less money than I do. But less time...I doubt it. I put in a few minutes once a week. It's so quick and easy that I sometimes feel guilty, LOL. That's why I'm willing to spend a little extra money. And I have perfect water with no odor or side effects. I am not putting down Chlorine, simply saying that done properly, BaquaSpa is laughably easy.

If I were to add up the total amount of time per week I maintain my tub water, it would be about 5 mins. I bring a bottle of Chlorine to the tub when I soak. Then I squirt in the right amount after I get out, and cover it up. I'm at the point where I only check the FC/pH once a week. It doesn't get much easier than that. On my next water change I'll be trying out a SWCG. That should be interesting.

I'm glad BaquaSpa is working out for you (for now), but to consider it much easier to use than Chlorine is a mistake. It really isn't.

Happy tubbing.

I appreciate your experience and reassurance, especially since I may someday be forced to switch from BaquaSpa. I seem to recall from several years ago that Bromine systems are discouraged for indoor use (I may just be imagining that), so I could end up with Chlorine, and I hope it's as successful as yours has been. Of course, until then....