Is It Really Possible To Have A Non-toxic Spa?

[bart6453]

I have no reason not to believe your first point, that I might not know that you are using Chlorine if I soaked in your tub. I'll also concede that you probably spend less money than I do. But less time...I doubt it. I put in a few minutes once a week. It's so quick and easy that I sometimes feel guilty, LOL. That's why I'm willing to spend a little extra money. And I have perfect water with no odor or side effects. I am not putting down Chlorine, simply saying that done properly, BaquaSpa is laughably easy.

If I were to add up the total amount of time per week I maintain my tub water, it would be about 5 mins. I bring a bottle of Chlorine to the tub when I soak. Then I squirt in the right amount after I get out, and cover it up. I'm at the point where I only check the FC/pH once a week. It doesn't get much easier than that. On my next water change I'll be trying out a SWCG. That should be interesting.

I'm glad BaquaSpa is working out for you (for now), but to consider it much easier to use than Chlorine is a mistake. It really isn't.

Happy tubbing.

Using Nitro's & chem geek's advice....I too have gotten my maintenance down to a science...I know my chlorine usage when unused, and when used.....so.....Wednesday I add chlorine, Sunday I check and add. If I soak, I add chlorine......seriously easy.

If spa stores where to show people how easy chlorine is when you know what you are doing, there would be much, much more happy customers out there.

Hmmm...that brings me to another thought.

WHY DON'T SPA STORES BETTER EDUCATE US?????

WHY DOES A SPA OWNER OF 6 MONTHS (BEING ME) HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WATER BALANCE AND SANITATION NEEDS THAN A "PROFESSIONAL".

Ok....rant is over.

[Nitro]

I appreciate your experience and reassurance, especially since I may someday be forced to switch from BaquaSpa. I seem to recall from several years ago that Bromine systems are discouraged for indoor use (I may just be imagining that), so I could end up with Chlorine, and I hope it's as successful as yours has been. Of course, until then....

Maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones, and won't get any funky Pink/White/Mold/Slime stuff.

[chem geek]

Using a product such as Spa System Flush at least once a year during a drain/refill can help prevent the white water mold in a Baqua spa. Just replacing the water helps, but the strong oxidizing product removes any mold that might be getting started as a biofilm in pipes.

[steve_a]

First of all I wish I would have found this site before we ever had our hot tub delivered. Alas, I didn't, so now we are learning more as we go. Thanks for all the information and advise. With that said...

MPS is potassium monopersulfate, aka non-chlorine shock. By itself, it is an oxidizer. When used in conjunction with Nature2 (silver and copper metal ions) it becomes a sanitizer suitable for hot tubs at high temperatures. However, as Nitro noted, it can be irritating to some people.

I personally think your best bet is to use Nature2 combined with chlorine using the Dichlor-then-bleach method, perhaps with a somewhat higher CYA level of around 50 ppm and then only soak with a starting FC of 1 ppm and add chlorine after the soak. You most likely won't even smell the chlorine in this situation, especially if you open up (uncover) the spa for 10 minutes prior to your soak. If that doesn't work for you, you could try the MPS method and if that doesn't work, then Baqua (not sure if that's compatible with N2 -- might have to remove the N2 in that case).

The ThermoClear system is the same as the Nature2, and in none of the literature for any of them can I find any numbers. I ordered some MPS test strips so that I can get familiar with what is in the tub. Learning what I have, I doubt I'll use these for very long. First of all, where should my FC level be using the mineral system? I've been having trouble getting the chlorine to stay put. We haven't used it for about 36 hours and the FC was zero per the strips. I added 2 TBSP at 7 and 4 hours later it was reading about 8ppm. That's the highest we've seen it so I think I'm getting somewhere. According to the Nature 2 "low chlorine recipe" it says to add one TBSP per 250 gal of MPS 20 minutes before a soak, and again after you soak - but no accounting for how many people or how long. And nowhere does it say anything about how much Dichlor to add, how often, or to what level - Also, what is the "MPS" level that should be maintained?

According to Nitro's Water Balance forum (should be writing a book !!) he talks about starting with Dichlor and then switching to liquid bleach. How does that fit in using the mineral cartridge or should I even bother with that?

Thanks !!

[chem geek]

Nature2 should be looked at as insurance or a sanitation aid, but it is not a full sanitizer by itself and is not an oxidizer of bather waste at all. To get rid of bather waste (ammonia/urea in sweat/urine), the rough rule of thumb is that it takes 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) for every person-hour of soaking.

The amount of MPS in the Nature2 manual is roughly equivalent to around 4 ppm FC of chlorine. Note that the maintenance amount is specified to be able to pass the EPA tests to kill bacteria quickly enough, but that is not necessarily enough to oxidize bather waste as noted above.

Regardless of the approach that you use, you want to make sure you measure a residual of sanitizer before your next soak. If it's too low or zero, then you need to add more. If it's too high to the point that you can't stand it during soaking, then lower the amount. Generally, you will add oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) after your soak.

[steve_a]

Nature2 should be looked at as insurance or a sanitation aid, but it is not a full sanitizer by itself and is not an oxidizer of bather waste at all. To get rid of bather waste (ammonia/urea in sweat/urine), the rough rule of thumb is that it takes 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) for every person-hour of soaking.

The amount of MPS in the Nature2 manual is roughly equivalent to around 4 ppm FC of chlorine. Note that the maintenance amount is specified to be able to pass the EPA tests to kill bacteria quickly enough, but that is not necessarily enough to oxidize bather waste as noted above.

Regardless of the approach that you use, you want to make sure you measure a residual of sanitizer before your next soak. If it's too low or zero, then you need to add more. If it's too high to the point that you can't stand it during soaking, then lower the amount. Generally, you will add oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) after your soak.

I think I'm starting to figure this out some. The whole idea behind the MPS is that it is the "low/no"chlorine alternative. Per the Nature 2 literature, "Note: As an alternative to MPS, an EPA registered source of dichlor1 may be substituted: 1 tablespoon dichlor1 = approximately 3 tablespoons MPS." I make the assumption that the Nature 2 all by itself provides a level of sanitation adequate if the tub is not used. However, as you add bather load, you need either the MPS to oxidize the bather waste and allow the silver to do its job, supplemented every few days with dichlor (or bleach) to truly sanitze OR add dichlor (or bleach) instead of the MPS which will sanitize AND oxidize bather waste. And all (per the Nature 2 literature) with about 1/3 of the amount of MPS required, therefore reducing your sanitizing chemical load. IF I test and maintain the tub every day and since my family is having no issue with chlorine, would it be safe to say that I could eliminate the Nature 2 cartridge entirely?

As complicated as all this seems, it is starting to get much simpler and less overwhelming as it was just two weeks ago. Thanks all.

[chem geek]

Yes, the whole idea behind MPS is the low/no chlorine approach, at least for N2. In my calculations, 1 tablespoon of Dichlor is equivalent to 2 tablespoons of MPS, but they may be referring to MPS with a different density. It is roughly 3:1 on a weight basis (2.7:1 actually) which is where I think they get their number, but I have MPS with a density that is higher than that of Dichlor (where Dichlor density is close to that of water).

It is not exactly true that N2 by itself is an adequate level of sanitation if the tub is not used. It's not bad, but it doesn't kill bacteria as quickly by itself as chlorine. So heartier pathogens could survive with N2 vs. not survive with N2+chlorine (or chlorine alone), but this risk is small when new pathogens aren't being introduced in larger quantities as during soaking.

You are correct that if you test and maintain the tub every day and have no issues with chlorine, then you would not need the N2 cartridge nor would you need MPS either. However, you have to be diligent about maintaining chlorine levels and never let it get to zero (or near-zero < 1 ppm) ever. N2 give you that insurance if you don't think you can properly maintain sanitizer levels.

[steve_a]

You are correct that if you test and maintain the tub every day and have no issues with chlorine, then you would not need the N2 cartridge nor would you need MPS either. However, you have to be diligent about maintaining chlorine levels and never let it get to zero (or near-zero < 1 ppm) ever. N2 give you that insurance if you don't think you can properly maintain sanitizer levels.

Another quick response - sweet. I'm sure you'll get tired of hearing from me, but I like to be confident about things and I think I can summarize alot of what I am learning.

• First, using the mineral cartridge is a good safety plan, plain and simple.
• Second, (assuming a fresh startup) Start out with using Dichlor, as for every 10ppm of FC it adds, it contributes 9ppm of CYA. Once the CYA level gets up to around 50ppm, then switch to....
• Unscented 6% bleach, 5 fluid oz per bather per hour (or 3-1/2 tsp of dichlor or 7 tsp of MPS).
• However, if my CH is still low, I can get away with using Cal-Hypo, as for every 10ppm of FC it adds, it contributes 7ppm of CH. This requires close attention to the pH as Cal-Hypo will increase that, possibly requiring use of pH Down. Once the CH is over 250ppm, then switch to....
• Unscented 6% bleach, 5 fluid oz per bather per hour (or 3-1/2 tsp of dichlor or 7 tsp of MPS).

All with the added caveat of test early and test often so that the water does not get ahead of me.

[chem geek]

You've almost got this perfect. The only thing I'd say is that a safer CYA target is 30 ppm, though 50 ppm may be OK but I would not go any higher than that. Normally, we say 30 ppm CYA is the target (I started out with 20 ppm conservatively, but think 30 ppm is more reasonable given typical FC swings in the spa for bather load).

As for the pH rise, this will occur from bleach in the same way as from Cal-Hypo. This can be reduced by having the TA lower (see Nitro's guide to water maintenance linked to in his posts) and by using 50 ppm Borates in the water which I'd recommend anyway.

You've got it! Now enjoy your spa as that's the whole point anyway! Once you've got the routine, it's very easy.

[vincent]

Hi all I read these posts with great interest. I have owed a spa for a few months, started with brominating concentrate and shocking with spa lite from spaguard and 3 weeks later, dumped the water too much chlorine.

advised to go to bromine tablets in floater, shock with mps, 2 months later itch started, neally scratched my testicles off they were so itchy. dumped water went to chlorine...no better still itchy. i week later dumped water again and went to N2 stick and ozone machine and lithium hypo, its been a month with this setup and still slight itch arms, back and legs.

I am looking into hydrogen peroxide, there is nothing about HP and spas of any detail in this forum. Spa Poppits sell this system.

My local chem guy will sell me HP 50% in 5 litre bottles and he has written a direction sheet, basically you put in 90 mls 50%HP 20 mins before each spa....thats it.

I have read all lots of these posts with interest.

All I want to do is have a spa without all these hassles.

"you can use bromine after Chlorine but you cant use chlorine after bromine".!!! why.

can i use HP after chlorine , if not WHY not.

the negative comments from some are quite vague, "you probably got smell and itch from public pool"

and a lot of the times these answers don`t actually answer the question asked.

Why dosent the N2 stick work with bromine????

maybe you guys will know, cause our local shop is promoting sales and thats all.

[chem geek]

"you can use bromine after Chlorine but you cant use chlorine after bromine".!!! why.

can i use HP after chlorine , if not WHY not.

:

Why dosent the N2 stick work with bromine????

maybe you guys will know, cause our local shop is promoting sales and thats all.

Vincent,

If you empty the water, then you can use chlorine after bromine. If you don't, then once you put bromine or bromide into the water, then any chlorine that is added will simply convert bromide to bromine -- that is, you can't get it to be a chlorine spa because the chlorine just becomes a shock or reactivator of bromide to bromine. Once a bromine spa (or pool) then always a bromine spa (or pool) until you change the water.

Hydrogen Peroxide will dechlorinate the water so you could use it after chlorine without changing the water, but the initial hydrogen peroxide you add will get used up removing the chlorine -- after that, it will remain. However, hydrogen peroxide is not a fast-acting disinfectant at the levels that don't cause irritation in spa water. It is only an oxidizer and is typically used in Baqua/biguanide/PHMB spas.

I don't know why technically bromine won't work with N2 which is metal sticks of silver and copper, but perhaps the sticks are designed to release metal ions at a certain rate with chlorine and that they do not do this with bromine. There are other metal ion systems that are compatible with bromine such as Spa Frog.

I'll let others comment on how to avoid itch/rash, but would ask you to take a look at this link to determine if your rash is a chemical sensitivity or if it is bacterial in nature (i.e. hot tub itch).

Richard

[vincent]

"you can use bromine after Chlorine but you cant use chlorine after bromine".!!! why.

can i use HP after chlorine , if not WHY not.

:

Why dosent the N2 stick work with bromine????

maybe you guys will know, cause our local shop is promoting sales and thats all.

Vincent,

If you empty the water, then you can use chlorine after bromine. If you don't, then once you put bromine or bromide into the water, then any chlorine that is added will simply convert bromide to bromine -- that is, you can't get it to be a chlorine spa because the chlorine just becomes a shock or reactivator of bromide to bromine. Once a bromine spa (or pool) then always a bromine spa (or pool) until you change the water.

Hydrogen Peroxide will dechlorinate the water so you could use it after chlorine without changing the water, but the initial hydrogen peroxide you add will get used up removing the chlorine -- after that, it will remain. However, hydrogen peroxide is not a fast-acting disinfectant at the levels that don't cause irritation in spa water. It is only an oxidizer and is typically used in Baqua/biguanide/PHMB spas.

I don't know why technically bromine won't work with N2 which is metal sticks of silver and copper, but perhaps the sticks are designed to release metal ions at a certain rate with chlorine and that they do not do this with bromine. There are other metal ion systems that are compatible with bromine such as Spa Frog.

I'll let others comment on how to avoid itch/rash, but would ask you to take a look at this link to determine if your rash is a chemical sensitivity or if it is bacterial in nature (i.e. hot tub itch).

Richard

Thanks richard for the link and your reply,

I read the link. not really suffering rash just itch now, could have called it a rash a month ago.

We spend aprox 1 hour in spa most evenings.

usually start to itch about 3 - 5 hours after exiting spar, and not every night. Have noticed dry skin on and about legs, back and arms. get over it by next day, sometimes made worst when area gets hot like laying on sheet in bed, the shoulder will start to itch and the nipples are sensitive to bromine now.

Maybe we have absorbed to much of either.

because the spa is relatively new to us as is the itch we are still getting in.

We do not shower after, we tried this and it didn`t help.

I did try the moisturiser and that helped the other itch...haha.

I live in small country town population 15000 so experteze is just not there.

thats why i`m googleing.

I do have another interesting question.

concerning the ozone thingy. sometimes it makes bubbles and sometimes it doesn`t, I know where it is cause i installed it and the flow from the pipe did not ever create bubbles until i fitted the ozone.

When I was running the bromine system it bubbled all the time when the pump was running but with the chlorine its eratic. Its seems to coinside with high chlorine readings or MPS application.

just another of a thousand questions..

cheers

[chem geek]

As far as ozone production being erratic and dependent on chlorine or MPS level, that doesn't make sense so I don't have an answer for you there.

It does sound like you're itch is not bacterial so that's good. It's either a chemical sensitivity or just a sensitivity to hot water. If you are sensitive to chlorine, bromine and MPS (seems unlikely for all three, but it's possible), then you could try Baquacil. If you still itch from that, then it's more likely to be a sensitivity to the temperature -- you could try soaking in 90F instead of 104F just as a test. Also, if you don't find yourself having any itch problem when swimming in chlorinated pools, then it's most likely to be a temperature issue (if the itch/rash were on your back, then it could be the force from the jets, but that doesn't seem to be your situation).