Ecosmarte Systems?

[joneve]

We are in the final planning stages of our new pool & spa. My wife has seen a no chemicals system called Ecosmarte. Does anyone know or have one. What do you think?? We are totally undecided between chlorine, salt of this 'no chemicals' system. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[IDW]

We are in the final planning stages of our new pool & spa. My wife has seen a no chemicals system called Ecosmarte. Does anyone know or have one. What do you think?? We are totally undecided between chlorine, salt of this 'no chemicals' system. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

If you live in Canada it is illegal to say your product replaces bromine or chlorine, it can only assist it.You must use chloine or bromine.

Salt water pools and chlorine are the same thing. Salt is sodium cloride

[jeff grotte]

We are in the final planning stages of our new pool & spa. My wife has seen a no chemicals system called Ecosmarte. Does anyone know or have one. What do you think?? We are totally undecided between chlorine, salt of this 'no chemicals' system. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

If you live in Canada it is illegal to say your product replaces bromine or chlorine, it can only assist it.You must use chloine or bromine.

Salt water pools and chlorine are the same thing. Salt is sodium cloride

Funny thing about Canada

Government Health Program and they premote only Chlorine

They must never heard about world war II and the use of Chlorine.

the interesting fact that i have learned thru the grape vine is that since ECOsmarte has been baned from selling thier pool syetem in Canada thier sales have increased many many times.

Note Canadians drive accross the border to get product

The interesting law they have is that the poolguy must tell the home owner they must use chlorine but thier is no law to force the consumer to us chlorine. Kind of unfair for the Canadian poolguy.

Some day someone up thier will get some guts and sue the canadian government for endangering the Citizens of thier wonderfull land..

[Pathfinder]

Since when were Eco smarte products banned for use in Canada. I havent heard of this and I get marketing faxes from them all of the time. They also had a booth at the 07 Canadian pool & spa expo. Did you mean Eco One?? Up here its not a chlorine or nothing type thing. I dont know who you talk to... but there is no law about chlorine only.

[waterbear]

I believe that in Canada copper products, including ionizers, can only be sold as algaecides (which they are) and not primary sanitizers (which they are not because the kill times are too slow). Copper ions are copper ions, how they get into the water really does not matter. You can put them in with a $2000 electronic ionizer that also makes claims about 'hydroxl ions', 'theoretical atomic oxygen', and other such pseudscience or with a $15 dollar bottle of copper sulfate based algaecide (and the algaecide is chelated so it is less likely to stain as quickly!)

In the US there are only THREE (count em!) EPA approved primary sanitizers, chlorine, bromine, and biguanide.

EVERYTHING ELSE is supplimental if you want sanitized water. Some, like ozone and UV, have some merit in certain applications, some are worthless and just drain your wallet.

Don't fall for the dog and pony show that constantly redirects your attention away from what is being claimed by screaming how chlorine is bad, salt is bad, etc. so they don't have to answer the outrageous claims they make about their product, which don't stand up under scrutiny.

And I don't think ANYONE has ever heard about WWII and chlorine since it was in WWI that chlorine gas was used as a chemical warfare agent! It was being used for water sanitation and manufacturing in WWII.

(btw, it's their, not thier)

[ParagonPool&Supply]

and chlorine wasn't even an effective chemical agent in warfare...the chlorine ended up only being used as an irritant and would quickly be blown away due to wind...it is often mistaken for mustard gas...

don't believe the hype with all the chlorine free sanitizers...they end up costing multiples more and usually require small use of chlorine...so you're not really eradicating you chlorine use...if you feel uncomfortable about handling chlorine or bromine, you can install a saltwater system which uses sodium chloride to make hypochlorous acid which actually does the sanitizing and you'll never have to handle chlorine or bromine sticks but reap all the benefits and have softer water while you're at it...just make sure you seal you deck, etc.

[A Believer]

Just thought I'd add my small voice to the Ecosmarte debate. I'm a new pool owner in Canada and I was considering the Ecosmarte system for some time. I had read through these and other forums where so many pool junkies and other naysayers were damning the product... and a couple had actual merit. Enough to concern me. So I called them up and spoke with a very helpful person who insisted the Ecosmarte system could be installed essentially into any current chlorine or salt based system without any hassles and un-installed just as simply if I wasn't happy. My biggest drawback was that being in Canada I wanted to be sure their 60 day money-back guarantee would be enough time to get it ordered, shipped, installed, and run within that window. The EcoSmarte agent promptly replied to my email with a brochure, the manual, and a written extension on their guarantee basically giving me the whole season to try it. He also gave me detailed instructions for how to order, how to run for the first day/week/month, a contact phone number to get technical info and a hotline for once my pool was in operation.

I figured I should see if the customer service (phone number) was as expedient and valuable as the sales agent. I called, and after going through some finer details like pool size, geographic location, pool type, etc the service tech was able to give me some really helpful tips for start up and tell me about the system in depth. I promptly ordered an Ecosmarte system and awaited delivery. My pool installers had given me the 'green light' to order it and within 5 minutes they had the electrodes added to the return line and the electronic control box screwed into the wall above it. No prob! SO FAR SO GOOD! My pool installer was anxious to see this in action...I think he secretly wanted to see it fail, because he had tried to sell me a Zodiac Salt water system.

I had several hurdles to overcome before I got my pool into the conditions needed to "GO LIVE" with the Ecosmarte system. I needed Phosphates removed, calcium added, chlorine at zero, pH at 6.8, etc. This took about 3 or 4 calls to tech support and every call was invaluable to me. (Example. They told me to go to the nursery to buy 20 lbs of aluminum sulfate to remove phosphates. That saved me about $75 right there as opposed to getting something from the Pool store.) Once my pool was ready to GO I flipped the IONIZE switch on to activate the copper electrodes. That was on June 21st. I ran it on copper for about 24 hours over the course of 3 days before I got it to the .7ppm level they required. Then I switched it to oxidize. They claimed that once a week you would need to switch it to IONIZE and the other 5 days you would run it on OXIDIZE. Here it is, August 20th (2 months later) and I haven't had to even add copper yet! It's been running on OXIDIZE the entire summer! My copper levels haven't fallen, and my pH has stayed consistently at 6.8. (Yes, I called tech support to see if there was something wrong but it has been determined that I just have a very stable environment around my pool). I've had two or three big pool parties, but mostly its just my family of 4 swimming throughout the day.

Still, I remembered the very valid arguments made here about sanitization. Sure copper kills the algae, but what about the bacteria? You can't see the bacteria!

While Ecosmarte agents deny that I should be concerned about slow kill speed of copper on bacteria, I respectfully considered some of the comments already made here and I have been compensating by adding non-chlorine shock (peroxysulfate I think it is) to my pool a couple times per month. Not much, just under 2 cups each time. That might not be enough for you chemistry gurus but I have to tell you, I am totally satisfied with the quality of my water and my pool installers are amazed too. After all, the non-chlorine shock was only $59.95 for the tub and that's all I've had to spend on it all season!

So. Season one almost done. I say that's long enough to determine that their claims have merit insofar as our pool is concerned. There is no question my circumstance is a 'best case scenario'. I've heard some horror stories too. Heck, maybe next season you'll hear mine. All I can say is, for me... I wouldn't have it any other way, and everyone who has swam (swum?) in my pool has commented on how awesome it is to swim in bottled water.

Cheers,

A Believer

[AquaTechPool]

pH at 6.8???? do you have a heater on this pool????

Just thought I'd add my small voice to the Ecosmarte debate. I'm a new pool owner in Canada and I was considering the Ecosmarte system for some time. I had read through these and other forums where so many pool junkies and other naysayers were damning the product... and a couple had actual merit. Enough to concern me. So I called them up and spoke with a very helpful person who insisted the Ecosmarte system could be installed essentially into any current chlorine or salt based system without any hassles and un-installed just as simply if I wasn't happy. My biggest drawback was that being in Canada I wanted to be sure their 60 day money-back guarantee would be enough time to get it ordered, shipped, installed, and run within that window. The EcoSmarte agent promptly replied to my email with a brochure, the manual, and a written extension on their guarantee basically giving me the whole season to try it. He also gave me detailed instructions for how to order, how to run for the first day/week/month, a contact phone number to get technical info and a hotline for once my pool was in operation.

I figured I should see if the customer service (phone number) was as expedient and valuable as the sales agent. I called, and after going through some finer details like pool size, geographic location, pool type, etc the service tech was able to give me some really helpful tips for start up and tell me about the system in depth. I promptly ordered an Ecosmarte system and awaited delivery. My pool installers had given me the 'green light' to order it and within 5 minutes they had the electrodes added to the return line and the electronic control box screwed into the wall above it. No prob! SO FAR SO GOOD! My pool installer was anxious to see this in action...I think he secretly wanted to see it fail, because he had tried to sell me a Zodiac Salt water system.

I had several hurdles to overcome before I got my pool into the conditions needed to "GO LIVE" with the Ecosmarte system. I needed Phosphates removed, calcium added, chlorine at zero, pH at 6.8, etc. This took about 3 or 4 calls to tech support and every call was invaluable to me. (Example. They told me to go to the nursery to buy 20 lbs of aluminum sulfate to remove phosphates. That saved me about $75 right there as opposed to getting something from the Pool store.) Once my pool was ready to GO I flipped the IONIZE switch on to activate the copper electrodes. That was on June 21st. I ran it on copper for about 24 hours over the course of 3 days before I got it to the .7ppm level they required. Then I switched it to oxidize. They claimed that once a week you would need to switch it to IONIZE and the other 5 days you would run it on OXIDIZE. Here it is, August 20th (2 months later) and I haven't had to even add copper yet! It's been running on OXIDIZE the entire summer! My copper levels haven't fallen, and my pH has stayed consistently at 6.8. (Yes, I called tech support to see if there was something wrong but it has been determined that I just have a very stable environment around my pool). I've had two or three big pool parties, but mostly its just my family of 4 swimming throughout the day.

Still, I remembered the very valid arguments made here about sanitization. Sure copper kills the algae, but what about the bacteria? You can't see the bacteria!

While Ecosmarte agents deny that I should be concerned about slow kill speed of copper on bacteria, I respectfully considered some of the comments already made here and I have been compensating by adding non-chlorine shock (peroxysulfate I think it is) to my pool a couple times per month. Not much, just under 2 cups each time. That might not be enough for you chemistry gurus but I have to tell you, I am totally satisfied with the quality of my water and my pool installers are amazed too. After all, the non-chlorine shock was only $59.95 for the tub and that's all I've had to spend on it all season!

So. Season one almost done. I say that's long enough to determine that their claims have merit insofar as our pool is concerned. There is no question my circumstance is a 'best case scenario'. I've heard some horror stories too. Heck, maybe next season you'll hear mine. All I can say is, for me... I wouldn't have it any other way, and everyone who has swam (swum?) in my pool has commented on how awesome it is to swim in bottled water.

Cheers,

A Believer

[chem geek]

The pH has to be kept low in an EcoSmarte system due to the high levels of copper that would otherwise stain at higher pH. Because the oxidizer levels are typically lower in an EcoSmarte pool (some people don't use any sanitizer at all and the oxidizer is an ozonator that is presumably AFTER the heater), the rate of corrosion might not be that high at a pH of 6.8, but that's speculation on my part.

[AquaTechPool]

that may be fine for the purposes of the sanitzation or the operation of the ecosmarte system, however, what about the discomfort of the pool water and more importantly, the damage done to the exchanger of the pool heater (where one is installed). I repair pool heaters for a living, and the damage to an exchanger can be seen on the exchanger when a pool is maintained at 6.8. It corrodes the exchanger causing it to leak. And a replacement exchanger is not a cheap repair.

Additionally, 7.4 is the usual pH mainly because that is the pH that is most comfortable for swimmers eyes.

FYI, I have never heard of the ecosmarte system, I am just wondering how the company explains their obvious deviation from the norm?

Paul

[chem geek]

Paul,

They are going after the "don't want to use chlorine or other chemicals" market. You are right that the lower pH will be harsher on the eyes, but I suppose people treat this similarly to swimming in a pond or lake that doesn't have a pH near 7.5. They market their system as if you are swimming in pure drinking water. It is most definitely not as sanitary, but mostly does not prevent person-to-person transmission of disease (the copper definitely prevents algae growth and to some extent helps prevent runaway pathogen growth -- though silver would be better for this latter purpose).

As for copper heat exchangers, it's not clear to me that a pH of 6.8 or 7.0 is going to corrode them that quickly since there is no strong chlorine oxidizer in the water. It is the combination of low pH and an oxidizer that accelerates corrosion. It's true that there is dissolved oxygen in the water, but I just don't know if the pH is low enough BY ITSELF to cause corrosion without any chlorine. It's certainly a greater risk unless you have cupro-nickel or titanium in your heat exchanger.

The system is not EPA approved unless they say you must also use at least 1 ppm FC of chlorine. In practice, people ignore this part and their website touts 100% chlorine free (see here). I would agree with you that if chlorine is used in the system along with the lower pH, that the risk of corrosion of copper heat exchangers is greatly increased.

There is a long discussion about EcoSmarte at Trouble Free Pool here. I do mention about the voiding of heater warranties with the low pH, but my comments above are about the practical side of it given no chlorine in the water.

Richard

[AquaTechPool]

thanks for the reply. i have not myself heard of nor seen this system in my neck of the woods. I am a warranty station for Hay pool products in so. california and have replaced many a heat exchangers. 90% of the time they fail due to chemical damage. I can see the damage on the exchanger itself and unfortunately have to tell the customer it is not covered. While all of the pools I deal with have chlorine in some form or another, high sanitizer levels can also be factor in the failure of the exchanger. Additionally, if i go to a service all and find any discoloration on the exchanger and then test the water and find a pH of 6.8, by the manufacturers guidelines, it will void warranty. While it may not also damage the echanger immediately, it certainly will cause it to fail, IMO sooner rather than later. So I would be weary of any product that recommends keeping my chemistry outside the generally accepted ranges.

Paul

[Erskin]

Just thought I'd add my small voice to the Ecosmarte debate. I'm a new pool owner in Canada and I was considering the Ecosmarte system for some time. I had read through these and other forums where so many pool junkies and other naysayers were damning the product... and a couple had actual merit. Enough to concern me. So I called them up and spoke with a very helpful person who insisted the Ecosmarte system could be installed essentially into any current chlorine or salt based system without any hassles and un-installed just as simply if I wasn't happy. My biggest drawback was that being in Canada I wanted to be sure their 60 day money-back guarantee would be enough time to get it ordered, shipped, installed, and run within that window. The EcoSmarte agent promptly replied to my email with a brochure, the manual, and a written extension on their guarantee basically giving me the whole season to try it. He also gave me detailed instructions for how to order, how to run for the first day/week/month, a contact phone number to get technical info and a hotline for once my pool was in operation.

I figured I should see if the customer service (phone number) was as expedient and valuable as the sales agent. I called, and after going through some finer details like pool size, geographic location, pool type, etc the service tech was able to give me some really helpful tips for start up and tell me about the system in depth. I promptly ordered an Ecosmarte system and awaited delivery. My pool installers had given me the 'green light' to order it and within 5 minutes they had the electrodes added to the return line and the electronic control box screwed into the wall above it. No prob! SO FAR SO GOOD! My pool installer was anxious to see this in action...I think he secretly wanted to see it fail, because he had tried to sell me a Zodiac Salt water system.

I had several hurdles to overcome before I got my pool into the conditions needed to "GO LIVE" with the Ecosmarte system. I needed Phosphates removed, calcium added, chlorine at zero, pH at 6.8, etc. This took about 3 or 4 calls to tech support and every call was invaluable to me. (Example. They told me to go to the nursery to buy 20 lbs of aluminum sulfate to remove phosphates. That saved me about $75 right there as opposed to getting something from the Pool store.) Once my pool was ready to GO I flipped the IONIZE switch on to activate the copper electrodes. That was on June 21st. I ran it on copper for about 24 hours over the course of 3 days before I got it to the .7ppm level they required. Then I switched it to oxidize. They claimed that once a week you would need to switch it to IONIZE and the other 5 days you would run it on OXIDIZE. Here it is, August 20th (2 months later) and I haven't had to even add copper yet! It's been running on OXIDIZE the entire summer! My copper levels haven't fallen, and my pH has stayed consistently at 6.8. (Yes, I called tech support to see if there was something wrong but it has been determined that I just have a very stable environment around my pool). I've had two or three big pool parties, but mostly its just my family of 4 swimming throughout the day.

Still, I remembered the very valid arguments made here about sanitization. Sure copper kills the algae, but what about the bacteria? You can't see the bacteria!

While Ecosmarte agents deny that I should be concerned about slow kill speed of copper on bacteria, I respectfully considered some of the comments already made here and I have been compensating by adding non-chlorine shock (peroxysulfate I think it is) to my pool a couple times per month. Not much, just under 2 cups each time. That might not be enough for you chemistry gurus but I have to tell you, I am totally satisfied with the quality of my water and my pool installers are amazed too. After all, the non-chlorine shock was only $59.95 for the tub and that's all I've had to spend on it all season!

So. Season one almost done. I say that's long enough to determine that their claims have merit insofar as our pool is concerned. There is no question my circumstance is a 'best case scenario'. I've heard some horror stories too. Heck, maybe next season you'll hear mine. All I can say is, for me... I wouldn't have it any other way, and everyone who has swam (swum?) in my pool has commented on how awesome it is to swim in bottled water.

Cheers,

A Believer

The ecosmarte system can be run at a higher PH. You will usallly have to ionize more often.