Rainforest Blue Versus Soft Soak

[hamburger]

In need of a little help here guys and gals. I presently use soft soak and I'm happy with it's performance. The down side is all the other solutions I have to use along with it to stabalize the water. Someone suggested I try Rainforest Blue instead this season. They claim, after they setup the tub for the season, all they add is a bi-weekly shock and that's it. Does this sound right ?? I haven't started our hot tub yet but, will do so in a couple weeks. Thanks in advance........

[waterbear]

Rainforest Blue is a copper based system. It still requires a resdiual santizer level in the pool for safe water. By itself is will NOT sanitize your water (but it will help prevent algae....many algaecides are copper based). New research indicates that copper and copper/silver based systems should be used with normal and NOT reduced santizer levels. The Austrailian governement has recently passed legislation to this effect, in fact.

The downside to copper based products is that they can cause staining of the spa and also of hair and nails (Green!). Rainforest Blue recommeds about .9-1 ppm copper in the water, which can definately cause staining if you let your pH go too high!

[jinveninato]

WaterBear,

You are in error about the Rainforest Blue and CleanWater Blue Systems. No residual sanitizer is required. I've been using it for a year and have found the Cleanwater Blue System far superior to chlorine Systems which I used for the year previous to starting Cleanwater Blue.

I've never had green nails or hair.

The instructions are clear, concise, and easy to do! A bi-weekly check is all that's needed.

KIT INCLUDES:

Cleanwater Blue Bactericide/Algicide, 8 oz. - an advanced alternative spa purifier.

Cleanwater Prep, 8 oz. - prepares your spa by sequestering excess calcium.

Cleanwater Purge, 8 oz. - stain & scale control, compatible with Cleanwater Blue™.

Oxy Spa, 2 lbs. non-chlorine monopersulfate (MPS) for regular shocking.

ZorbO - Earth-friendly oil scum absorber.

Alkalinity Increaser (pH Buffer), 1 1/2 lbs. - for raising low pH and Total Alkalinity of spa water. Prevents equipment corrosion.

pH Decrease, 1 lb. - lowers excessive pH & Total Alkalinity to control scale formation on equipment & heater element.

Sea Klear Natural Clarifier, 16 oz. - for keeping your water sparkling clear.

Copper 3-way Test Strips - for testing copper ion level, plus pH & TA. Enough for about a year's testing.

Dichlor Granular, 1 lb. - for startup and occasional shocking as needed.

Measuring Cups - for accurate dosages, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Quick-Start Instruction Guide -easy step-by-step instructions to get you started, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Just want to set things right...I use the Clearwater Blue system...have used it for a year and am VERY happy with it.

[waterbear]

WaterBear,

You are in error about the Rainforest Blue and CleanWater Blue Systems. No residual sanitizer is required. I've been using it for a year and have found the Cleanwater Blue System far superior to chlorine Systems which I used for the year previous to starting Cleanwater Blue.

I've never had green nails or hair.

The instructions are clear, concise, and easy to do! A bi-weekly check is all that's needed.

KIT INCLUDES:

Cleanwater Blue Bactericide/Algicide, 8 oz. - an advanced alternative spa purifier.

Cleanwater Prep, 8 oz. - prepares your spa by sequestering excess calcium.

Cleanwater Purge, 8 oz. - stain & scale control, compatible with Cleanwater Blue™.

Oxy Spa, 2 lbs. non-chlorine monopersulfate (MPS) for regular shocking.

ZorbO - Earth-friendly oil scum absorber.

Alkalinity Increaser (pH Buffer), 1 1/2 lbs. - for raising low pH and Total Alkalinity of spa water. Prevents equipment corrosion.

pH Decrease, 1 lb. - lowers excessive pH & Total Alkalinity to control scale formation on equipment & heater element.

Sea Klear Natural Clarifier, 16 oz. - for keeping your water sparkling clear.

Copper 3-way Test Strips - for testing copper ion level, plus pH & TA. Enough for about a year's testing.

Dichlor Granular, 1 lb. - for startup and occasional shocking as needed.

Measuring Cups - for accurate dosages, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Quick-Start Instruction Guide -easy step-by-step instructions to get you started, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Just want to set things right...I use the Clearwater Blue system...have used it for a year and am VERY happy with it.

No I am NOT IN ERROR!!!!!!!! The kit you have contains dichlor which is a form of stabilized chlorine fo, as you put it' startup and occasional shocking'. Be aware that copper WILL keep your water algae free but not necessisarily free of pathogens. Copper has a very slow kill time compared to chlorine. It is interesting that Australia passed legislation last year requiring NORMAL and not reduced chlorine levels for copper based systems in light of recent research on kill times for water borne pathogens. My info does NOT come from the manaufacturer's hype and nyberbole but from my knowlegde of water chemistry! Cleanwateblue is simply a chelated copper product. Chelated copper''s been used in fish culture for a long time now, but then again, an aquiculture tank is not meant to be a sterile system as is a hot tub. The product might have an EPA registration number but be aware that the ONLY 3 EPA approved sanitizers for pools and hot tubs are chlorine, bromine and biguanide. Metal or 'mineral' based products are apprived either as auxillery products or as algaecides, NOT primary sanitizers to be used alone.Uusually a minimun .5 ppm free chlorine residual is required (and this really is too low!)

BTW, it is interesting how they say on their website that it is compatible with both chlorine and bromine. Your dichlor for 'occasional shocking' (which should be maintaining a FC of at LEAST .5 ppm but in reality should be at least 2 ppm if you really want a santizied tub) is the residual chlorine that you are adding. You will not grow algae with the amount of copper in the water but you will have bactieria!

Bottom line, Copper can cause stains. If you haven't had them yet it meand you either have not seen the staining or you have been lucky....just give it time.

In the 'old days' they put copper in the pool in the hopes of staining the plaster an even blue-green. This stain was very effective a preventing algae growth. (Any "Old time pool guys" out there remember this?)

[jinveninato]

Hi Again,

I didn't want to cause any bad feelings for those folks who are happy with Chlorine, etc., products I just wanted to set the record straight that I've been using the system for a year. Cleanwater Blue is a safe, easy to use, reliable system that also reasonably priced.

I'd like to supply the following websites to help understand the Cleanwater Blue system:

EPA certification: Shows product is certified for purification use for drinking water. MSDS sheet also available here.

http://www.earthsciencelabs.com/earthtec/technical.htm

The instruction sheet:

http://www.spadepot.com/docs/Cleanwater-Blue.pdf

Gotta run.......work, work, work!

[quizkid22]

I'm not a water genius nor do I claim to be. I'm still very new to this but I can say a few things I'm sure of.

Cleanwater Blue did not work at all for me. I follwed the instructions to the letter, and I'm very *** about things. Several weeks into using the products my water was cloudy as heck and just didn't seem right.

Secondly, I'm not saying the guy is a God, but the advice Waterbear gave to me was accurate as heck. I followed his instructions to the letter he gave to me, my water is clear, clean, no strong chlorine smell, in balance and all using supplies I buy form the grocery store.

I'm into my 5th month using his advice. 6 months since I've had this tub. If I was to make an educated opinion, I would say to listen to waterbear.

That's just my two cents, I'm glad it's working for you, it didn't for me.

[waterbear]

Hi Again,

I didn't want to cause any bad feelings for those folks who are happy with Chlorine, etc., products I just wanted to set the record straight that I've been using the system for a year. Cleanwater Blue is a safe, easy to use, reliable system that also reasonably priced.

I'd like to supply the following websites to help understand the Cleanwater Blue system:

EPA certification: Shows product is certified for purification use for drinking water. MSDS sheet also available here.

http://www.earthsciencelabs.com/earthtec/technical.htm

The instruction sheet:

http://www.spadepot.com/docs/Cleanwater-Blue.pdf

Gotta run.......work, work, work!

This is exactly my point. A drinking water sanitizer is NOT the same a one for a pool or spa. Drinking water is sanitized in a holding tank--a closed system with a long contact time so a slow kill time is not an issue.. A pool or spa is an open system with contaminants being introduced constanly (leaves and pollen falling in; a bird flying overhead that scores a direct hit; The dog going for a dip; sweat, urine and feces introduced by EACH bather that enters the water--no matter how clean they are or think they are!--you get the point.This requires a residual sanitizer IN the water that will act fast. There are only 3 such EPA approved ones--chlorine, bromine, and biguanide.

It is interesting that the instruction sheet says that chlroine or bromine is optional but recommends that it be used and that at the very bottom it says:

"NOTE: This Guide information is reliable to the best of our knowledge. The suggestions contained herein are

the opinion of D. Williams & Co. Determine for yourself if these products are suitable for your objectives and

applications. D. Williams & Co. makes no guarantee of satisfactory results from reliance on this Guide, and

disclaims any liability for any resulting loss or damage. This information is not intended to supersede or conflict

with federal, state, or local statutes or regulations."

It is also interesting that the company call the product an algicide/bactericide and NOT a sanitizer It is wll known that copper is an effective algicide (just look at the number of copper based algicides on the market!) and that it does exhibit some bacteriostatic properties given enough contact time (it is, after all, a poisonous metal!). It is NOT viricidal. According to the MSDS the main ingredient in it is copper sulfate. There is most likely a chelating agent also since chelated copper is much easer to dose and tends to be more "time release" and less toxic than unchelated copper (Just ask anyone who has ever used copper in a fish tank to kill parasites--invertebrates are very sensitive to copper and many fish parasites are invertebrates.).

I find the most telling thing in the instructions is the recommendation of shocking with dichlor if the spa has periods of non used, if the water is cloudy of if there is a high bather load! Chlorine free system my A**!

[waterbear]

I'm not a water genius nor do I claim to be. I'm still very new to this but I can say a few things I'm sure of.

Cleanwater Blue did not work at all for me. I follwed the instructions to the letter, and I'm very *** about things. Several weeks into using the products my water was cloudy as heck and just didn't seem right.

Secondly, I'm not saying the guy is a God, but the advice Waterbear gave to me was accurate as heck. I followed his instructions to the letter he gave to me, my water is clear, clean, no strong chlorine smell, in balance and all using supplies I buy form the grocery store.

I'm into my 5th month using his advice. 6 months since I've had this tub. If I was to make an educated opinion, I would say to listen to waterbear.

That's just my two cents, I'm glad it's working for you, it didn't for me.

Really glad to hear your spa is working out for you now! I guess I do give good advice once in a while!

[glfahlc]

I'm not a water genius nor do I claim to be. I'm still very new to this but I can say a few things I'm sure of.

Cleanwater Blue did not work at all for me. I follwed the instructions to the letter, and I'm very *** about things. Several weeks into using the products my water was cloudy as heck and just didn't seem right.

Secondly, I'm not saying the guy is a God, but the advice Waterbear gave to me was accurate as heck. I followed his instructions to the letter he gave to me, my water is clear, clean, no strong chlorine smell, in balance and all using supplies I buy form the grocery store.

I'm into my 5th month using his advice. 6 months since I've had this tub. If I was to make an educated opinion, I would say to listen to waterbear.

That's just my two cents, I'm glad it's working for you, it didn't for me.

what exactly are these products that you can get from the grocer to sanitize your tub.

[waterbear]

what exactly are these products that you can get from the grocer to sanitize your tub.

Here they are (and they are exactly the same products you get at the pool/spa supply store!

For sanitation it is liquid chlorine (for those of you using bromine this is your oxidizer or shock) AKA sodium hypochlorite AKA plain, unscented laundry bleach--either regular or ultra strength.

Total Alkalinity increaser aka sodium bicarbonate aka sodium hydrogen carbonate aka baking soda

pH increaser aka sodium carbonate aka washing soda ( in the laundry aise) BUT this will also raise your total alkalinity so a better choice for raising pH without having an impact on total alkalinity is:

Sodiium Tetraborate aka borax (the 20 mule team stuff) which is sold by some pool and spa products companies as a 'water enchancer' for a lot of money. When added to a 30-50 ppm concentration it acts as an algaestat, pH buffer, and helps reduce sanitizer demand (YES, it really works--I use it in my pool and my spa!) It is, IMHO, the best choice for raising pH without sending your other water parameters out of whack!

If you water is very soft you might need calcium hardness increaser--here is a little secret. Most of it is made by Dow Chemical and repackaged! Dow sells it as Dowflake and in pellet form and it is often available in hardware stores as a road de icer! It is EXACTLY the same stuff sold for much more money in the pool and supply stores! Just calcium chloride! The Dow website had a page that listed this as the product (along with their pellet form of calcium chloride) that is recommeded for pool and spa use!

You still need to get pH decreaser (dry acid AKA sodium bisulfate) from the supply store or your neighborhood, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. and if you are using bromine you still need the sodium bromide and possibly bromine tablets if you are doing a 3-step bromine system. If you are using chlorine you might possibly need a small amount of cyanuric acid (stablizer) or you might want to initially chlorinate with dichlor (which contains stabilzier) until a small amount builds up in the water on each refill. This can help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight but too much will prevent the chlorine from being an effective sanitizer! (IMHO, I would NOT let the CYA go above about 20-30 ppm.)

The only other product you might need is a metal sequesterant if your fill water tests positive for metals or if your have very hard water.

You DO NOT NEED algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, or phospahte removers if you are maintaining your water. These products can cover up problems for a while but do not cure them so if you have a regular need for them then you are not properly caring for your water.

Finally there is one product that is an absolute MUST HAVE: A good drop based test kit used weekly. Strips just don't have the precision needed for making water balance adjustments (but are fine for a quick check on a daily basis to see if you need to drag out the test kit). When I say a good drop based kit I mean a kit such as the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine systems and a K-2106 for bromine systems. Many people seem to think that about $60 is too much to spend on a test kit but when you consider the thousands of dollars your spa cost it really isn't and a good kit will make your testing easy and your water care even easier. If you don't believe me just do one chlorine or bromine test with the FAS-DPD test included in the kits above and see if it isn't easier than the standard DPD tests included in most other kits (if you are testing chlorine or bromine with OTO then you have a cheapie kit!) Also you will find that you can read the results and there is no gussing what color on the comparator or test strip it really is!

[glfahlc]

Here they are (and they are exactly the same products you get at the pool/spa supply store!

For sanitation it is liquid chlorine (for those of you using bromine this is your oxidizer or shock) AKA sodium hypochlorite AKA plain, unscented laundry bleach--either regular or ultra strength.

Total Alkalinity increaser aka sodium bicarbonate aka sodium hydrogen carbonate aka baking soda

pH increaser aka sodium carbonate aka washing soda ( in the laundry aise) BUT this will also raise your total alkalinity so a better choice for raising pH without having an impact on total alkalinity is:

Sodiium Tetraborate aka borax (the 20 mule team stuff) which is sold by some pool and spa products companies as a 'water enchancer' for a lot of money. When added to a 30-50 ppm concentration it acts as an algaestat, pH buffer, and helps reduce sanitizer demand (YES, it really works--I use it in my pool and my spa!) It is, IMHO, the best choice for raising pH without sending your other water parameters out of whack!

If you water is very soft you might need calcium hardness increaser--here is a little secret. Most of it is made by Dow Chemical and repackaged! Dow sells it as Dowflake and in pellet form and it is often available in hardware stores as a road de icer! It is EXACTLY the same stuff sold for much more money in the pool and supply stores! Just calcium chloride! The Dow website had a page that listed this as the product (along with their pellet form of calcium chloride) that is recommeded for pool and spa use!

You still need to get pH decreaser (dry acid AKA sodium bisulfate) from the supply store or your neighborhood, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. and if you are using bromine you still need the sodium bromide and possibly bromine tablets if you are doing a 3-step bromine system. If you are using chlorine you might possibly need a small amount of cyanuric acid (stablizer) or you might want to initially chlorinate with dichlor (which contains stabilzier) until a small amount builds up in the water on each refill. This can help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight but too much will prevent the chlorine from being an effective sanitizer! (IMHO, I would NOT let the CYA go above about 20-30 ppm.)

The only other product you might need is a metal sequesterant if your fill water tests positive for metals or if your have very hard water.

You DO NOT NEED algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, or phospahte removers if you are maintaining your water. These products can cover up problems for a while but do not cure them so if you have a regular need for them then you are not properly caring for your water.

Finally there is one product that is an absolute MUST HAVE: A good drop based test kit used weekly. Strips just don't have the precision needed for making water balance adjustments (but are fine for a quick check on a daily basis to see if you need to drag out the test kit). When I say a good drop based kit I mean a kit such as the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine systems and a K-2106 for bromine systems. Many people seem to think that about $60 is too much to spend on a test kit but when you consider the thousands of dollars your spa cost it really isn't and a good kit will make your testing easy and your water care even easier. If you don't believe me just do one chlorine or bromine test with the FAS-DPD test included in the kits above and see if it isn't easier than the standard DPD tests included in most other kits (if you are testing chlorine or bromine with OTO then you have a cheapie kit!) Also you will find that you can read the results and there is no gussing what color on the comparator or test strip it really is!

thanks for the list bear.... now my follow-up to your list is this; would using these store bought chems be better for someone that has chemical allergies or might it be easier some other way...

[waterbear]

thanks for the list bear.... now my follow-up to your list is this; would using these store bought chems be better for someone that has chemical allergies or might it be easier some other way...

no difference between them except for the price you pay and where you buy them!

[drewskie]

Here they are (and they are exactly the same products you get at the pool/spa supply store!

For sanitation it is liquid chlorine (for those of you using bromine this is your oxidizer or shock) AKA sodium hypochlorite AKA plain, unscented laundry bleach--either regular or ultra strength.

Total Alkalinity increaser aka sodium bicarbonate aka sodium hydrogen carbonate aka baking soda

pH increaser aka sodium carbonate aka washing soda ( in the laundry aise) BUT this will also raise your total alkalinity so a better choice for raising pH without having an impact on total alkalinity is:

Sodiium Tetraborate aka borax (the 20 mule team stuff) which is sold by some pool and spa products companies as a 'water enchancer' for a lot of money. When added to a 30-50 ppm concentration it acts as an algaestat, pH buffer, and helps reduce sanitizer demand (YES, it really works--I use it in my pool and my spa!) It is, IMHO, the best choice for raising pH without sending your other water parameters out of whack!

If you water is very soft you might need calcium hardness increaser--here is a little secret. Most of it is made by Dow Chemical and repackaged! Dow sells it as Dowflake and in pellet form and it is often available in hardware stores as a road de icer! It is EXACTLY the same stuff sold for much more money in the pool and supply stores! Just calcium chloride! The Dow website had a page that listed this as the product (along with their pellet form of calcium chloride) that is recommeded for pool and spa use!

You still need to get pH decreaser (dry acid AKA sodium bisulfate) from the supply store or your neighborhood, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. and if you are using bromine you still need the sodium bromide and possibly bromine tablets if you are doing a 3-step bromine system. If you are using chlorine you might possibly need a small amount of cyanuric acid (stablizer) or you might want to initially chlorinate with dichlor (which contains stabilzier) until a small amount builds up in the water on each refill. This can help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight but too much will prevent the chlorine from being an effective sanitizer! (IMHO, I would NOT let the CYA go above about 20-30 ppm.)

The only other product you might need is a metal sequesterant if your fill water tests positive for metals or if your have very hard water.

You DO NOT NEED algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, or phospahte removers if you are maintaining your water. These products can cover up problems for a while but do not cure them so if you have a regular need for them then you are not properly caring for your water.

Finally there is one product that is an absolute MUST HAVE: A good drop based test kit used weekly. Strips just don't have the precision needed for making water balance adjustments (but are fine for a quick check on a daily basis to see if you need to drag out the test kit). When I say a good drop based kit I mean a kit such as the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine systems and a K-2106 for bromine systems. Many people seem to think that about $60 is too much to spend on a test kit but when you consider the thousands of dollars your spa cost it really isn't and a good kit will make your testing easy and your water care even easier. If you don't believe me just do one chlorine or bromine test with the FAS-DPD test included in the kits above and see if it isn't easier than the standard DPD tests included in most other kits (if you are testing chlorine or bromine with OTO then you have a cheapie kit!) Also you will find that you can read the results and there is no gussing what color on the comparator or test strip it really is!

thanks for the list bear.... now my follow-up to your list is this; would using these store bought chems be better for someone that has chemical allergies or might it be easier some other way...

Bump for sure...need this too.

[Moonbeam]

what exactly are these products that you can get from the grocer to sanitize your tub.

Here they are (and they are exactly the same products you get at the pool/spa supply store!

For sanitation it is liquid chlorine (for those of you using bromine this is your oxidizer or shock) AKA sodium hypochlorite AKA plain, unscented laundry bleach--either regular or ultra strength.

Total Alkalinity increaser aka sodium bicarbonate aka sodium hydrogen carbonate aka baking soda

pH increaser aka sodium carbonate aka washing soda ( in the laundry aise) BUT this will also raise your total alkalinity so a better choice for raising pH without having an impact on total alkalinity is:

Sodiium Tetraborate aka borax (the 20 mule team stuff) which is sold by some pool and spa products companies as a 'water enchancer' for a lot of money. When added to a 30-50 ppm concentration it acts as an algaestat, pH buffer, and helps reduce sanitizer demand (YES, it really works--I use it in my pool and my spa!) It is, IMHO, the best choice for raising pH without sending your other water parameters out of whack!

If you water is very soft you might need calcium hardness increaser--here is a little secret. Most of it is made by Dow Chemical and repackaged! Dow sells it as Dowflake and in pellet form and it is often available in hardware stores as a road de icer! It is EXACTLY the same stuff sold for much more money in the pool and supply stores! Just calcium chloride! The Dow website had a page that listed this as the product (along with their pellet form of calcium chloride) that is recommeded for pool and spa use!

You still need to get pH decreaser (dry acid AKA sodium bisulfate) from the supply store or your neighborhood, Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. and if you are using bromine you still need the sodium bromide and possibly bromine tablets if you are doing a 3-step bromine system. If you are using chlorine you might possibly need a small amount of cyanuric acid (stablizer) or you might want to initially chlorinate with dichlor (which contains stabilzier) until a small amount builds up in the water on each refill. This can help prevent the chlorine from burning off in sunlight but too much will prevent the chlorine from being an effective sanitizer! (IMHO, I would NOT let the CYA go above about 20-30 ppm.)

The only other product you might need is a metal sequesterant if your fill water tests positive for metals or if your have very hard water.

You DO NOT NEED algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, enzymes, or phospahte removers if you are maintaining your water. These products can cover up problems for a while but do not cure them so if you have a regular need for them then you are not properly caring for your water.

Finally there is one product that is an absolute MUST HAVE: A good drop based test kit used weekly. Strips just don't have the precision needed for making water balance adjustments (but are fine for a quick check on a daily basis to see if you need to drag out the test kit). When I say a good drop based kit I mean a kit such as the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine systems and a K-2106 for bromine systems. Many people seem to think that about $60 is too much to spend on a test kit but when you consider the thousands of dollars your spa cost it really isn't and a good kit will make your testing easy and your water care even easier. If you don't believe me just do one chlorine or bromine test with the FAS-DPD test included in the kits above and see if it isn't easier than the standard DPD tests included in most other kits (if you are testing chlorine or bromine with OTO then you have a cheapie kit!) Also you will find that you can read the results and there is no gussing what color on the comparator or test strip it really is!

I'm new to posting so hopefully... I am posting the right way?

I have read through your list and will hopefully digest (figuratively speaking!) it better with the help of my husband though in the mean time I wanted to ask about the product Ozone Accelerator by King Neptune (we live in Australia) friends have just bought it and it sounds like it might be just another expensive form of bleach so I thought to ask if anyone has heard of this or uses it? (As I think the active ingredient is hydrogen peroxide)

My husband and I have been buying Lithium Chloride (bought it in bulk) which has been working for us so far (2 years)... is Bleach better than this? Our spa holds nearly 2000 litres and my husband and I go in once a day approx. using about 3 teaspoons of this after each use. The only thing I'm not sure about is that Lithium Chloride is more for cold water - I think?

The other reason we have been using this product is that you cannot smell the chlorine so much as normal chlorine. Also it isn't expensive especially as we bought it in bulk 10 kilos - I think?) So far it has lasted us 2 years+

[chem geek]

I'm new to posting so hopefully... I am posting the right way?

I have read through your list and will hopefully digest (figuratively speaking!) it better with the help of my husband though in the mean time I wanted to ask about the product Ozone Accelerator by King Neptune (we live in Australia) friends have just bought it and it sounds like it might be just another expensive form of bleach so I thought to ask if anyone has heard of this or uses it? (As I think the active ingredient is hydrogen peroxide)

My husband and I have been buying Lithium Chloride (bought it in bulk) which has been working for us so far (2 years)... is Bleach better than this? Our spa holds nearly 2000 litres and my husband and I go in once a day approx. using about 3 teaspoons of this after each use. The only thing I'm not sure about is that Lithium Chloride is more for cold water - I think?

The other reason we have been using this product is that you cannot smell the chlorine so much as normal chlorine. Also it isn't expensive especially as we bought it in bulk 10 kilos - I think?) So far it has lasted us 2 years+

King Neptune Ozone Accelerator is hydrogen peroxide as listed here. Note that hydrogen peroxide is NOT compatible with chlorine, bromine, or most non-chlorine oxidizers (e.g. potassium monopersulfate, MPS). This is because hydrogen peroxide is not only an oxidizer, but also a reducing agent with respect to these other oxidizers. Hydrogen peroxide can, in fact, be used to dechlorinate a spa. So you most definitely do not want to use Ozone Accelerator if you plan to continue to use chlorine (or bromine or copper/silver/MPS).

I believe you mean Lithium Hypochlorite, not Lithium Chloride, right? Lithium Hypochlorite is very expensive, but essentially the same as using bleach which is Sodium Hypochlorite. So it's up to you whether the convenience of adding a more concentrated powder is worth being over 5 times more expensive to get the same Free Chlorine level (as described in this post). It sounds like you are buying in bulk so the extra cost isn't a big deal.

If you are only using lithium hypochlorite without first using some Dichlor after a fresh refill (or otherwise adding Cyanuric Acid, CYA, to the water), then you are over-chlorinating your spa. Without any CYA, the chlorine from a hypochlorite source will be too strong. The only reason you might have noticed more of a smell with another source of chlorine is that you used more of it in terms of the Free Chlorine (FC) level than you thought so were then able to smell it. You should probably use Dichlor for around 1 week before switching to Lithium Hypochlorite or bleach. Your swimsuits will last longer, the chlorine will also last longer, and you'll be able to use the proper amount without smelling it.

If you don't have an ozonator, then a rough rule-of-thumb for how much oxidizer is needed to get rid of bather waste after a soak is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104F) tub needs around 3-1/2 teaspoons (17 grams or ml) of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach, 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS, or 5-1/2 teaspoons (26 grams) of Lithium Hypochlorite. The real rule, however, is to use whatever amount of oxidizer after a soak that is needed to still measure at least a 1-2 ppm FC residual before the next soak. Your 3 teaspoons would be enough to handle around a half-hour of one person soaking (if there were no ozonator). With two of you soaking, then unless it's a quick 15 minute soak, you are probably not using enough oxidizer. Do you measure an FC reading before your next soak? Do you have an ozonator?

Richard

[Moonbeam]

I'm new to posting so hopefully... I am posting the right way?

I have read through your list and will hopefully digest (figuratively speaking!) it better with the help of my husband though in the mean time I wanted to ask about the product Ozone Accelerator by King Neptune (we live in Australia) friends have just bought it and it sounds like it might be just another expensive form of bleach so I thought to ask if anyone has heard of this or uses it? (As I think the active ingredient is hydrogen peroxide)

My husband and I have been buying Lithium Chloride (bought it in bulk) which has been working for us so far (2 years)... is Bleach better than this? Our spa holds nearly 2000 litres and my husband and I go in once a day approx. using about 3 teaspoons of this after each use. The only thing I'm not sure about is that Lithium Chloride is more for cold water - I think?

The other reason we have been using this product is that you cannot smell the chlorine so much as normal chlorine. Also it isn't expensive especially as we bought it in bulk 10 kilos - I think?) So far it has lasted us 2 years+

King Neptune Ozone Accelerator is hydrogen peroxide as listed here. Note that hydrogen peroxide is NOT compatible with chlorine, bromine, or most non-chlorine oxidizers (e.g. potassium monopersulfate, MPS). This is because hydrogen peroxide is not only an oxidizer, but also a reducing agent with respect to these other oxidizers. Hydrogen peroxide can, in fact, be used to dechlorinate a spa. So you most definitely do not want to use Ozone Accelerator if you plan to continue to use chlorine (or bromine or copper/silver/MPS).

I believe you mean Lithium Hypochlorite, not Lithium Chloride, right? Lithium Hypochlorite is very expensive, but essentially the same as using bleach which is Sodium Hypochlorite. So it's up to you whether the convenience of adding a more concentrated powder is worth being over 5 times more expensive to get the same Free Chlorine level (as described in this post). It sounds like you are buying in bulk so the extra cost isn't a big deal.

If you are only using lithium hypochlorite without first using some Dichlor after a fresh refill (or otherwise adding Cyanuric Acid, CYA, to the water), then you are over-chlorinating your spa. Without any CYA, the chlorine from a hypochlorite source will be too strong. The only reason you might have noticed more of a smell with another source of chlorine is that you used more of it in terms of the Free Chlorine (FC) level than you thought so were then able to smell it. You should probably use Dichlor for around 1 week before switching to Lithium Hypochlorite or bleach. Your swimsuits will last longer, the chlorine will also last longer, and you'll be able to use the proper amount without smelling it.

If you don't have an ozonator, then a rough rule-of-thumb for how much oxidizer is needed to get rid of bather waste after a soak is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104F) tub needs around 3-1/2 teaspoons (17 grams or ml) of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach, 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS, or 5-1/2 teaspoons (26 grams) of Lithium Hypochlorite. The real rule, however, is to use whatever amount of oxidizer after a soak that is needed to still measure at least a 1-2 ppm FC residual before the next soak. Your 3 teaspoons would be enough to handle around a half-hour of one person soaking (if there were no ozonator). With two of you soaking, then unless it's a quick 15 minute soak, you are probably not using enough oxidizer. Do you measure an FC reading before your next soak? Do you have an ozonator?

Richard

Yes we have an ozonator in our Miami III (Holds 1900 LITRES) spa - with a continuous circulation pump (http://www.signaturespaswa.com.au/signature_range.html) we have only been using (http://www.cookespoolsandspas.com.au/chemicals.htm) the Ospa Lithium Chlorine

Lithium hypochlorite (NOT Lithium Chloride!!! lol)

I was only asking about the King Neptune Ozone Accelerator as friends were about to use it and said that it was good? I wanted to do my homework if we decided to switch from the Lithium Chlorine (Great so far.... 10 kg at $340 AU$ - is this good compared to household bleach that I think? Waterbear was suggesting along with other things to maintain alk & PH...?) which contains chlorine stabiliser (Cyanuric Acid).

So if we 2 of us are in the spa for 30 min with an ozonator - is 3 teaspoons enough if the temperature is around 36 degrees and comes down to around 31 degrees through the night...?

We don't test the water enough we have a dropper test kit but it doesn't test the chlorine level with drops just a little tablet which we have run out of... We have a 10 month baby and sometimes have him in the spa with us - so I want to make sure I am more diligent and have the correct sanitizer amount and not too much to hurt him/us either...

When I see or smell that perhaps the water has been too hot for too long and has used all the chlorine much quicker than usual I put some household white vinegar (acid) in and wait about 6 hrs to put some more Lithium chlorine later to shock it if it starts to look a bit cloudy... mostly we do not have problems only if we don't go in the spa every night and then forget to put teaspoons in anyway... don't need to do this if the temp was around 30 degrees over that time...

We use the vinegar every now an again to bring down the PH so that the sanitizer remains a good level...

I still haven't understood the amounts above re using normal bleach and until I do I won't switch to the cheaper option - if it is cheaper than the Ospa Lithium Chlorine with Cyanuric Acid oxidiser. What do you think?

Thank you Richard for your reply I appreciate it and still haven't got my hubby to read through it with me so I understand, but will do as soon as I can. I will have to check re ounces and %'s etc as I use mls and grams and will need to convert... my math is atrocious

Natasha

[chem geek]

Natasha,

So without an ozonator, every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104F) tub needs around 3-1/2 teaspoons (17 grams or 17 ml) of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces (150 ml) of 6% bleach, 7 teaspoons (45 grams or 35 ml) of 43% MPS, or 5-1/2 teaspoons (26 grams) of Lithium Hypochlorite. However, with your ozonator, you probably need less than these amounts, perhaps around half as much. So your 3 teaspoons of lithium hypochlorite, if in 350 gallons (1325 liters), is probably good for about one person-hour of soaking, so two people for 30 minutes. How long do you two soak?

Another way to look at it is that your 3 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite is equivalent to 2-3/4 fluid ounces (80 ml) of 6% chlorine bleach. Does that help?

As for pricing, 10 kilograms of lithium hypochlorite would give 2642 ppm FC total (660 days of 4 ppm FC per day) at $340 AU$ so that's about 13 cents AU per 1 ppm FC. Chlorine bleach in Australia such as here does appear to come in different strengths. If you can get 1 liter of it for less than $6, then the bleach is less expensive and I can pretty much assure you that chlorine bleach isn't even close to being that expensive.

Don't forget that whether you are using lithium hypochlorite or bleach, you want to start off after a fresh refill by adding some Cyanuric Acid to the water, either directly with pure CYA or more conveniently by using Dichlor for about 1-2 weeks.

Richard

[Moonbeam]

Natasha,

So without an ozonator, every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104F) tub needs around 3-1/2 teaspoons (17 grams or 17 ml) of Dichlor, 5 fluid ounces (150 ml) of 6% bleach, 7 teaspoons (45 grams or 35 ml) of 43% MPS, or 5-1/2 teaspoons (26 grams) of Lithium Hypochlorite. However, with your ozonator, you probably need less than these amounts, perhaps around half as much. So your 3 teaspoons of lithium hypochlorite, if in 350 gallons (1325 liters), is probably good for about one person-hour of soaking, so two people for 30 minutes. How long do you two soak?

Another way to look at it is that your 3 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite is equivalent to 2-3/4 fluid ounces (80 ml) of 6% chlorine bleach. Does that help?

As for pricing, 10 kilograms of lithium hypochlorite would give 2642 ppm FC total (660 days of 4 ppm FC per day) at $340 AU$ so that's about 13 cents AU per 1 ppm FC. Chlorine bleach in Australia such as here does appear to come in different strengths. If you can get 1 liter of it for less than $6, then the bleach is less expensive and I can pretty much assure you that chlorine bleach isn't even close to being that expensive.

Don't forget that whether you are using lithium hypochlorite or bleach, you want to start off after a fresh refill by adding some Cyanuric Acid to the water, either directly with pure CYA or more conveniently by using Dichlor for about 1-2 weeks.

Richard

We soak for max 1 hr each or 30 minutes.

I will find out the strength of a good chlorine bleach that I could get in bulk and then would you be able to tell me the approx amount to put in for two adults in the ozonated spa once a day for 1hr each? If we just use bleach do we just test it with the dropper kit? and add vinegar or carb soda depending on PH, acid & alk levels?

Cyanuric Acid is already in the Lithium Chlorine we use at the moment - I don't know how much - I'll have a look on the container tomorrow...

When you mentioned above: that you start out after a fresh refill with Cyanuric acid, how much would you put in to a 1900 litre spa? Is Cyanuric acid like vinegar? Do you have to add more Cyanuric acid later and would you start a fresh spa refill every 3 months? and change the filters how often?

And what is Dichlor (Is it the same as the Ospa Lithium Chlorine that we are using at the moment? or would we just finish the Lithium Chlorine and then begin using the cheaper option - chlorine bleach! - sorry I am a bit confused - my husband does not understand either...

Health wise, is bleach better or the same as the Lithium Chlorine and Cyanuric acid that we are using now?

Also when mentioned above: (Lithium Hypochlorite is equivalent to 2-3/4 fluid ounces (80 ml) of 6% chlorine bleach. Does that help?)

We do not know what you mean? Sorry...

(Hopefully my questions are not silly...)

We really appreciate all your help in this, let me know if my question's are becoming to much of a hassle!

Natasha

[chem geek]

No hassle at all. When I said "your 3 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite is equivalent to 2-3/4 fluid ounces (80 ml) of 6% chlorine bleach", that means that if 3 teaspoons of your lithium chlorine product is working for you as the right amount, then if you switch to using 6% chlorine bleach you would use 80 ml of that bleach instead.

Please do give me the full ingredients and percentages of your lithium chlorine. I've never heard of a lithium hypochlorite product also containing cyanuric acid. Yes, if you give me the strength of the chlorine bleach you can get, then we can figure out how much you need though really it comes down to your testing to see that you retain a residual Free Chlorine (FC) by the next soak. If your FC is too low, then you add more bleach after each soak; if the FC is too high, then you add less. The Pool Calculator can be used to calculate dosage amounts.

Cyanuric Acid is not like vinegar. It isn't just an acid, but is also called "stabilizer" or "conditioner" and it moderates chlorine's strength. In 1900 liters, you would add 57 grams (about 62 ml volume) of pure CYA to get to 30 ppm. Or you could use Dichlor as your source of chlorine instead. Dichlor is also known as chlorinating granules (usually), especially for spas. There are many different brands. You would cumulatively add around 113 grams (about 110 ml volume) of Dichlor as your chlorine source for a week or two (however long it takes to use that amount of Dichlor) and would then switch to bleach after that.

There is no health difference between lithium hypochlorite vs. bleach (sodium hypochlorite), though the Cyanuric Acid will moderate chlorine's strength and that's healthier since it should produce fewer disinfection by-products (especially nitrogen trichloride) and be less harsh on skin, swimsuits, hair and equipment. If you've already got a bunch of lithium hypochlorite, you can certainly continue to use it (depending on what else is in it, which you're going to tell me), but adding some CYA will help moderate its strength.

[Moonbeam]

No hassle at all. When I said "your 3 teaspoons of Lithium Hypochlorite is equivalent to 2-3/4 fluid ounces (80 ml) of 6% chlorine bleach", that means that if 3 teaspoons of your lithium chlorine product is working for you as the right amount, then if you switch to using 6% chlorine bleach you would use 80 ml of that bleach instead.

Please do give me the full ingredients and percentages of your . I've never heard of a lithium hypochlorite product also containing cyanuric acid. Yes, if you give me the strength of the chlorine bleach you can get, then we can figure out how much you need though really it comes down to your testing to see that you retain a residual Free Chlorine (FC) by the next soak. If your FC is too low, then you add more bleach after each soak; if the FC is too high, then you add less. The Pool Calculator can be used to calculate dosage amounts.

Cyanuric Acid is not like vinegar. It isn't just an acid, but is also called "stabilizer" or "conditioner" and it moderates chlorine's strength. In 1900 liters, you would add 57 grams (about 62 ml volume) of pure CYA to get to 30 ppm. Or you could use Dichlor as your source of chlorine instead. Dichlor is also known as chlorinating granules (usually), especially for spas. There are many different brands. You would cumulatively add around 113 grams (about 110 ml volume) of Dichlor as your chlorine source for a week or two (however long it takes to use that amount of Dichlor) and would then switch to bleach after that.

There is no health difference between lithium hypochlorite vs. bleach (sodium hypochlorite), though the Cyanuric Acid will moderate chlorine's strength and that's healthier since it should produce fewer disinfection by-products (especially nitrogen trichloride) and be less harsh on skin, swimsuits, hair and equipment. If you've already got a bunch of lithium hypochlorite, you can certainly continue to use it (depending on what else is in it, which you're going to tell me), but adding some CYA will help moderate its strength.

Thanks alot!

Re: 3 teaspoons working for us - I think we have been under chlorinating, more so when we have stayed in longer... even so the water is clear!

If you know that there is no or very little chlorine in the spa, if we added 1/2 teaspoon to the water how long should we wait to get in the spa, so that it is better for our health? (I'd rather put in chlorine than get a bug from not having any in there...)

I'll get the percentages re lithium chlorine ALGICIDE (http://services.apvma.gov.au/PubcrisWebClient/details.do?view=general&pcode=57945) (350g/kg of Cl)

and Cyanuric Acid tomorrow (it doesn't say on the container it just says that it contains Cyanuric Acid) - it's a public holiday today.

The container says Required levels:

Spa Pool (under 40 degrees C)

Level of stabiliser - Do not use stabiliser

Total Alkal - 60 - 200 mg/L

Min Free Chlorine - Below 26 C = 2 Above 26 C = 4

Ph Optimum - 7.2 to 7.8

(Do not exceed a concentration of 50mg/L of isocyanurate)

Natasha

[chem geek]

According to the list of constituents here, the Lithium Pool Chlorine product contains ONLY Lithium Hypochlorite, 35% by weight (which is pretty standard for lithium hypochlorite). It does NOT contain Cyanuric Acid.

The "isocyanurate" is the same as cyanuric acid, but the container says not to use stabilizer which is basically wrong. You want SOME CYA in the water or else the chlorine will be too strong. So you can either buy a small amount of pure CYA (aka stabilizer or conditioner or isocyanurate) or you can get some Dichlor (aka chlorinating granules or sodium dichloroisocyanurate or dichloro-s-triazinetrione or Troclosene) that you would use for a week or two (cumulatively adding around 33 ppm FC which would also result in 30 ppm CYA).

Instead of getting to zero chlorine, it would be far better to just add more after your soak so that you still measure 1-2 ppm FC before your next soak. If you do measure zero chlorine, just add a small amount as you indicate -- you can get in within a few minutes of mixing. Most people add chlorine after their soak since they don't want a lot of chlorine during their soak. Usually around 1 ppm FC won't be noticeable during the soak as it will combine with the ammonia from your sweat to form monochloramine and then when you add more chlorine after the soak then that chlorine will take care of the rest of your sweat and urine, mostly urea and more ammonia. The safest thing to do is to never let the chlorine get to zero, at least not for very long. When the chlorine is very close to zero, bacteria can grow and that is what makes the tub unsafe (getting hot tub itch, etc.). Ozone will not kill anything in the bulk spa water that doesn't get circulated and bacteria that grow can attach to spa surfaces to form biofilms, but chlorine will kill such bacteria before they can reproduce and form biofilms.

[tagyerit]

I have learned more in the last 15 mins then I could imagine.

Thanks to ALL

According to the list of constituents here, the Lithium Pool Chlorine product contains ONLY Lithium Hypochlorite, 35% by weight (which is pretty standard for lithium hypochlorite). It does NOT contain Cyanuric Acid.

The "isocyanurate" is the same as cyanuric acid, but the container says not to use stabilizer which is basically wrong. You want SOME CYA in the water or else the chlorine will be too strong. So you can either buy a small amount of pure CYA (aka stabilizer or conditioner or isocyanurate) or you can get some Dichlor (aka chlorinating granules or sodium dichloroisocyanurate or dichloro-s-triazinetrione or Troclosene) that you would use for a week or two (cumulatively adding around 33 ppm FC which would also result in 30 ppm CYA).

Instead of getting to zero chlorine, it would be far better to just add more after your soak so that you still measure 1-2 ppm FC before your next soak. If you do measure zero chlorine, just add a small amount as you indicate -- you can get in within a few minutes of mixing. Most people add chlorine after their soak since they don't want a lot of chlorine during their soak. Usually around 1 ppm FC won't be noticeable during the soak as it will combine with the ammonia from your sweat to form monochloramine and then when you add more chlorine after the soak then that chlorine will take care of the rest of your sweat and urine, mostly urea and more ammonia. The safest thing to do is to never let the chlorine get to zero, at least not for very long. When the chlorine is very close to zero, bacteria can grow and that is what makes the tub unsafe (getting hot tub itch, etc.). Ozone will not kill anything in the bulk spa water that doesn't get circulated and bacteria that grow can attach to spa surfaces to form biofilms, but chlorine will kill such bacteria before they can reproduce and form biofilms.

[culchie]

I'm hoping Waterbear or someone who has used his "grocery store bought items" to balance their spa can answer what doses of each to use. Both to start up a new spa, and to maintain it. Thanks.

[chem geek]

You are posting to an old thread from 2010. As for what chemicals you can use for maintaining your spa, read the stickies at the top of this forum: Dichlor/bleach Method In a Nutshell for chlorine and Bromine for Beginners for bromine.

As for grocery store equivalents, bleach is chlorine, but you need to add Cyanuric Acid (CYA) to the spa water after a refill so that's easy to do by starting off using Dichlor for a short time to build up CYA and then switch to using bleach. pH Up is identical to Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda (careful: NOT the laundry detergent) while Alkalinity Up is identical to Arm & Hammer Baking Soda. Calcium or Hardness Increaser is the same as Peladow or Dowflake.