What Is Important Is Spa Shopping To Consumers

[Jim_The_Jim]

Shopping list for your hot tub search.

1/ Look for hot tubs that are easier to repair. As the hot tub ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the hot tub should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the hot tub. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple concessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane hot tub, the heat is dissipated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam, in a fully foamed hot tub, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for hot tubs with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of hot tubs use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay through the nose" for it.

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for hot tubs with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper hot tubs will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good. The safest is to use steel boxes. If you put a 50 amp or a 60 amp sub panel in your home, you would never pass code if the panel was made of plastic for fire reasons. Steel is by far best container for electrical panels and control boxes. Aluminum is OK but not as safe as steel. (We have always used steel, and in 10 years we have had three boxes with electrical arcing. You could not even see the evidence of it until the box was opened. Then you saw all the black and melted parts. This can happen in any control box. You do not want any power junctions exposed outside of a metal housing. This stops the possibilities of fire.)

6/ Look for hot tubs that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the hot tub is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the hot tub has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on hot tub pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These hot tubs have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the hot tub should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the hot tub that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the hot tub. For instance, our least expensive hot tubs have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end hot tubs have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump hot tub with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the hot tub as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any hot tub that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid hot tubs that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a hot tub by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The hot tubs they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable hot tub. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about hot tubs and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy hot tubs that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conforming. The largest manufacturer of portable hot tubs does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any hot tub company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertising. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the hot tub company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertising. The hot tub industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because hot tub shoppers do not know anything about hot tubs. All of the advertising on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

[mepat]

Wow - what great information. Thank you very much. Our spa is still 'new' and working great. Will keep your comments in the old memory bank.

[Roger]

Wow - what great information. Thank you very much. Our spa is still 'new' and working great. Will keep your comments in the old memory bank.

There are several good points in there, but there is also a sales pitch in there to steer towards his brand. There are alot of things missing, and some bad points also. If any consumers want to know the bad points, or whats missing contact me in private message.

[Jim_The_Jim]

There are several good points in there, but there is also a sales pitch in there to steer towards his brand. There are alot of things missing, and some bad points also. If any consumers want to know the bad points, or whats missing contact me in private message.

The only "bad points" are that you don't understand how to read, and you don't understand about how spas should be made and you don't understand today's market.

Most qualified engineers understand it perfectly, because each point is totally verifiable from outside sources, like engineering books and engineers, and the ANSI and UL standards.

Here is another point I should make. The spa industry is down at least 100 dealers and guessing maybe up to 200 from what it was in 2000. This is because of the poor economy, the internet spa stores and places like Costco and Walmart. The "big box stores" are selling cheap short life spas. When you get rid of the stores and the huge overhead of those stores with sales people and brick and mortar, taxes, on floor space, lighting, electricity, rent etc, you can offer a heck of a lot more product for less money. We go even farther, in that we pay very litttle for advertising, less than 10% of what we were paying for our old retail store. All you need is a good reputation for taking care of your customers and super good products that sell at bargain prices and products with minimal warranty concerns.

There are many people who purchased spas in the last five years from a local dealer, and the dealer no longer exists. If they had purchased from us, they would still have service on their spas, actually the best service possible in the industry. Plus when the spas go out of warranty we offer on site repairs and huge discounts 25%-40% average off what service people charge for the parts to anyone who purchased from us for life.

It is almost ridiculous to purchase a spa from a local store that does not have a huge internet market. We are selling products in the UK and now in The Netherlands, Hawaii and all over the Continental US. We still don't like going to Canada, because of the hassel, so Canadians are driviing across the border to pick up their spas or they are paying a Canadian shipper to bring it to them. This is because there are no spas of this quality even made any more anywhere.

At one time I was worried that the big companies would buy one of our spas and try to copy it, but then I realized that they cannot afford to build spas like this and keep the prices as low as we have them. As a matter of fact, no other company is buying the higher quality equipment, like the "Ultimate Pumps" any more because they can't afford to put them in their spas. So, Waterway discontiuned making them. Now, we have to assemble them here in Colorado, and we are going to be using the newest technology in our standard spas; the new wisper pumps with two speeds. Low speed is 1.2 to 1.4 amps FLA and high speed of 3, 4, 5, and 6 HP.

When my customers tell their friends that it is just stupid to buy any other spa, they are not kidding.

Go over to our forum and ask them. You might get a "wake up call" on spa buying.

This post is about sales of spas.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm not going to wast time responding to severl statements you made as "fact". It is well known on this forum to take Jim with a grain of salt. Dang, Jim, you have way too much time on your hands. And, besides, consumers are smarter than you think, evidently.

The intelligence of a consumer has nothing to do with knowlege about hot tubs and the spa industry. The spa industry still takes full advantage of consumer ignornace on the topic of hot tubs.

I am just doing my little part to educate them, with the truth.

[Roger]

I am just doing my little part to educate them, with the truth.

Educating and shoving your opinion down there throats is 2 different things.

Bad point number 1 Full Foam works great for supporting and insulating a Hot Tub. Combined with an inexpensive and effiecient, quiet running circulation pump, it makes a good choice.

[hottub.pool_boy]

Here's some really good questions to ask :

How long has your company been selling spas?

How long has your company been selling your present brand of spa?

Do you sell more than one manufacturer and if so, why?

Do you own the property/ building you’re operating from?

Do you deliver the spas yourself, or sub-contractor?

Do you service the spas yourself, or does an independent, perform the service?

Do I call you when I have a question on the operation of the spa or another Company?

Is there any trip charge for service work performed during the warranty?

Are the years of service you advertise combined among employees or actual time your company has been operating in the spa business?

Is the owner of the company a spa/ hot tub expert?

[Kreg]

Seems like a lot of regulars in this forum resent Jim a great deal. As a newbie, I don't know why. Maybe he sells more spas then they do. Maybe he is as unethical as they make him appear to be. Regardless, Jim's post has very good points in it. If consumers shopped around with that knowledge, they would probably make a quality hot tub purchase.

[Chas]

Is there any trip charge for service work performed during the warranty?

Only if the customer is a jerk. We give a lot of grace to supportive customers and have a policy of no trip charge anywhere. If the customer is a jerk (unreasonable), we have a trip charge in the contract for them.

Wow. Interesting answer. Very interesting. I don't suppose that there is any way to determine what criterion are used to determine which of your loyal customers are going to be determined to be jerks?

Is the owner of the company a spa/ hot tub expert?

I am the number one expert in the country and in the world according to many thousands of people, but not according to Chas, who is owned by Hot Spring.

While I am duly flattered that I occupy so much of your thinking that I somehow find myself mentioned here, I would love to know what you base your statement that you are the 'number one expert in the country.' Hmm. I can't gauge which is more interesting: this statement or the statement above. You are very entertaining Jim.

Oh, by the way, item #3 states that spas which utilize the hot tub water to remove heat from the equipment (motors, et. al) are more efficient.

This is true, but there is a downside to this: there is no practical way to regulate the water temperature while the jets are on.

Provided the outside temperature is mild, and the water-to-air temperature differential is sufficiently small (maybe < 40 degrees), the hot tub water will continue to rise while the jets are on, since the heat from the equipment is bled off into the water.

A spa which is "efficient" in this manner would require some mechanism to cool the water down if the water temperature were to exceed the desired (i.e. dialed in) water temperature. I've experienced this in my hot tub: it has risen 4-5 degrees above my "dialed in" temperature on some occasions.

I'm surprised Jim didn't take this chance to tell you about his DAIT level 4 system. It is a fan with some temp sensors which blows the hot air out of the cabinet. It is not ETL listed. There is no proof of its effectiveness other than Jim and his posting, but it is an interesting way to deal with one obvious shortcoming of the TP insulation scheme.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Hello BigD,

A spa shopper here. What is the brand & model of your spa? I am looking at some full-foamed as well as a thermopane style units, and as suspected, each camp defends it insulation concept with almost religious fervor.

Thanks!

Altazi

The DAIT control system is designed to take care of all conditions, I has thermosensors by the motors and this controls the heat in the cabinet and stops any possible temperature problems.

We have the only thermally controlled conditions for the equipment that takes into account all conditions of weather and temperatures inside and out. It is near perfect after 7 years of development and testing.

The customers certainly like it, it cuts the cost to operate to about 1/3 the cost of an average full foam spa in winter.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Seems like a lot of regulars in this forum resent Jim a great deal. As a newbie, I don't know why. Maybe he sells more spas then they do. Maybe he is as unethical as they make him appear to be. Regardless, Jim's post has very good points in it. If consumers shopped around with that knowledge, they would probably make a quality hot tub purchase.

It is because I am outspoken on spa design and discuss things according to science and engineering.

Sales people hate me.

[Roger]

it cuts the cost to operate to about 1/3 the cost of an average full foam spa in winter.

Can you please show us some stats regarding this claim. A Hot Spring with a small circulation pump that uses as much power as a 75 watt light bulb and your spa uses 1/3 less. I would like to see this happen. How much power does that 48 frame you have use versus the small circ pump HS uses and then we can try and figure out heater usage. Explain it to us so we can see that you are simply speculating and you actualy have no idea.

And you still haven't speculated of the cover deal and ARC....sigh...side step....shuffle, shuffle

I'm surprised Jim didn't take this chance to tell you about his DAIT level 4 system. It is a fan with some temp sensors which blows the hot air out of the cabinet. It is not ETL listed. There is no proof of its effectiveness other than Jim and his posting, but it is an interesting way to deal with one obvious shortcoming of the TP insulation scheme.

This is only one of the shortcomings he has dealt with. The other obvious one to me is the 20 hours a day there is no motor running to create the heat for the insulation. He has dealt with that by supplying a 48 fram pump and motor that will run continuesly. Not as effiecient as the circ pump most FF manufacturers use but it could cut down on heater use, but it's expensive to operate for all those hours, and it's only speculation on his part how much it costs or saves. Plus he'll say you get the cleanest water there is. Even if you only need 4 hours of filtration, you get 24.

[tumbleweed]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[BigD]

Hello BigD,

A spa shopper here. What is the brand & model of your spa? I am looking at some full-foamed as well as a thermopane style units, and as suspected, each camp defends it insulation concept with almost religious fervor.

Thanks!

Altazi

Hi,

I purchased a 2006 Caldera Niagra. I only noticed the problem in late May/early June, when the outside air temperature was 60+ degrees F. When it was colder out, I did not notice the problem at all. I attributed this to the air-to-water temperature differential being substantially higher such that the water cooled off at least as rapidly as the components could heat the water.

When I started looking at hot tubs, I read the whole "fully foamed vs whatever style" arguments. After reading the arguments, I eventually came back to my senses and realized that design difference is inconsequential compared to the comfort I experienced when using the hot tub.

If you want my advice, wet test as many hot tubs as you can. Narrow your selection down to 2 or 3 tubs. When you're done with that and still cannot find a clear winner, look at stuff like insulation to help you pick. In other words, if I sat in a hot tub and found it to be the most comfortable and relaxing of all the hot tubs I tried, I wouldn't care (within reason) how it was insulated.

Regards,

BigD

[Autoplay]

Hi,

I purchased a 2006 Caldera Niagra. I only noticed the problem in late May/early June, when the outside air temperature was 60+ degrees F. When it was colder out, I did not notice the problem at all. I attributed this to the air-to-water temperature differential being substantially higher such that the water cooled off at least as rapidly as the components could heat the water.

When I started looking at hot tubs, I read the whole "fully foamed vs whatever style" arguments. After reading the arguments, I eventually came back to my senses and realized that design difference is inconsequential compared to the comfort I experienced when using the hot tub.

If you want my advice, wet test as many hot tubs as you can. Narrow your selection down to 2 or 3 tubs. When you're done with that and still cannot find a clear winner, look at stuff like insulation to help you pick. In other words, if I sat in a hot tub and found it to be the most comfortable and relaxing of all the hot tubs I tried, I wouldn't care (within reason) how it was insulated.

Regards,

BigD

Get ready BigD! Now that you confessed to owning a Caldera spa,Conjuna will eagerly be blasting you shortly. Expect him to call you stupid,and an idiot,among other choice adjectives.

Only a truly smart person with "x" amount of degrees etc own CaVeN spas! Pass it on!!!

It is because I am outspoken on spa design and discuss things according to science and engineering.

Sales people hate me.

I'm not a salesperson. And,I don't hate you Conjuna....but I dislike you. It's mutual correct?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Once Again, so I don't have to keep typing.

Hot Spring is not a real spa. It has low horsepower, and has bad filtering in order to keep electric use down.

The other Spa in the Test is a REAL SPA, with twin 4 HP 56 frame pumps as far as I know.

[For some reason this keeps being asked over and over by "full foam spa people". Since I have to spend so much time explaining this over and over, I thought that I would bring it over here. This is concernng the test results of the Alberta Research Council. http://xxx.xxxxxxx/AlbertaResearchCouncil.html

OK, I am sorry Jim that it wasn't clear. I will try and make it clearer.

So if the ARC test showed very very small savings to the top brand over the second place brand, and there was a 1" difference in the cover thickness. And I will assume you agree that 80 percent of the heat loss is from the cover area. The 1 inch in extra cover thickness equates to an extra r-factor over the entire 7x7 or 8x8 area on the cover of R 4.5 more then the cover used on the second place tub.

If the test was done with equal r-factor in the cover area of both first and second place which brand would of come out on top?

I was playing music for about 6 hours yesterday and last night. I was on this forum between sessions. I should have read your post better. I did not realize that you are STILL on this cover thing, that is so darn important to you. : :-/ [smiley=grin.gif]

You are still not understanding, and I think you have some mental block about it. After, how many years of me explaining it to you.

If the Arctic spa was run according to my instructions, the differerence in the electric consumption would be a lot less energy in the Arctic and the difference would be greater, in the "cold test".

You also forget that the Arctic spa as I recall has twin 56 Frame 4 HP water pumps. They run about 12 AMPs on high and about 4 amps on low. So, how is it possible for that spa using that much power on low speed to come in on top.

If they had switched to 24 hour filtering, then the heater would have never come on and the heat from the pump would have gone into the water and petty much taken care of any loss out the top. The warm air generated would have stopped 100% of the heat loss from the sides of the vessel.

In my tests putting a full size 5 HP 16.4 AMP high, and 4.8 FLA on low and running it 24 hours per day on low reduces the cost of running the spa by 20% in winter, mean temp 20 degrees F.

One more time. If you can stop the wasteful use of the electric heater (take the heater watts out) , while filtering like crazy, with extremely clean water, and put the heat into the water and into the room of the spa cabinet, you stop all the heat losses out of the sides of the vessel, filter extremely well, and put the heat back into the spa water that is escaping out the top. It is similar to putting the spa vessel underneath in a hot room of 113 to 119 degrees F and that is hotter than a tropical paradise. The sides of the vessel is much bigger than the surface.

The Hot Spring uses a worhtless tiny pump and low horse power to compensate for a poor design. They put on three way diverter valves to con their customers into belieiving the spa acutally has therapy.

When you realize that the Arctic is a REAL spa wiht a real shell and with real jet pumps, and it still beat out the weak Hot Spring, you can get off the jag of the cover. One inch of cover with better foam is not going to make that much difference!!!

A thermal blanket does make a hell of a lot more difference. It is close to adding another 2.5 inches of foam to the existing cover, and if the cover is saturated, it makes the cover almost like new in terms of comparing it with a cover with no blanket.

Now, if you use our methods of insulation, with foam on the shell, Thermal foil, Foam, Thermal foil, thermal foil foam board, thermal foil, and wood on the outside of the cabinet you can reduce the heat from teh circulation pump to 1.3 amps and keep it warm and toasty. So that it is running with 40,000 gallons of filtering and no heater use for 95% of the time you are doing it according to thermodynamic engineering to a much higher degree than has ever been done before. It costs about 400% more to build an insulation system like this, but it is worth it. We build real value into our products. However they are not for ignorant consumers, who do not know anything about science. I actually try to not sell to people who don't have the ability to understand what they are buying. I will spend up to 5 hours on the phone discussing every detail as long as the person is willing to listen and keeps asking questions. It is what I do.

The cheaper spas using full foam, basically it takes one guy with a foam gun to stuff it with foam. It is pretty cheap. We realize that it is cheap, and we do sell some full foam spas that are also cheap to sell, about $2600 to $3200 retail. These are the FreeFlow spas. They are a much better value than most any of the mass merchant spas, better equipment and better electronics.

Now, when a company takes an ABS acrylic shell puts in minimal underpowered equipment, no second suctions, oor filtering, and stuffs it with foam to keep it from falling apart, that is not a real spa, It is a kiddy toy, in my opinion. Anybody who buys one is really not informed at all. They are selling that crap for over 10,000. That just tells me one thing, my work to educate is not over.

I plan on expanding the HTSCI, Hot Tub and Spa Consumer Institute, and to do side by side testing, just like I proposed in the http://xxx.xxxxxxx/SPA_CHALLENGE.html. That will put an end to this, because I will publish the exacting data, and all the parameters. I may even put the same brand and thikness of cover on each spa, just for your sake.

One more thing. In a full foam spa there is a huge cubic feet of space that cannot be insulated, in the equipment are. It is a cold box in Colorado winter and sucks heat out of the equipment. So, your 80% is not correct. Most spas like Sundance are very poor in Colorado winters compared to an Arctic and even worse when you compare to a Haven Vista, SE, Paramont, or Super Custom Spa.

There have been side by side tests done with Arctic and Sundance side by side in full winter. 10 degrees average temp, and 7 degrees average temp. They chose Sundance because the differerece is drastic at those temperatures and Sundance is your typical real spa wiht real horse power..

[grahamtasia]

The person who started this thread, should of called it, heres another weak attempt at bashing Watkins! By asking each consumer what is important to them is truly, the only way to intelligently find out what each consumer finds important. For a salesperson to have a "canned" speach of what they think is important, is an ignorant way to approach a customer. That type of approach, is outdated and unappreciated.

[Jim_The_Jim]

The person who started this thread, should of called it, heres another weak attempt at bashing Watkins! By asking each consumer what is important to them is truly, the only way to intelligently find out what each consumer finds important. For a salesperson to have a "canned" speach of what they think is important, is an ignorant way to approach a customer. That type of approach, is outdated and unappreciated.

The fellow who started this thread has a consience, and believes in following the "Golden Rule".

If it is too difficult for you to respond to any of those points of fact, then that is the norm with sales people.

They always bash me for speaking the truth.

What part of common sense is missing from your "picture".

Watkins need to be pushed until they make safe products and they lower the prices to reflect the cheap quality.

[Stevie]

Well... outdated and unappreciated basically sums up Jim's existence now doesn't it...

[Jim_The_Jim]

There are several good points in there, but there is also a sales pitch in there to steer towards his brand. There are alot of things missing, and some bad points also. If any consumers want to know the bad points, or whats missing contact me in private message.

What are your bad points? You are a coward to post them for open discussion?

[Roger]

What are your bad points? You are a coward to post them for open discussion?

3/ Look for hot tubs that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed hot tub is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient hot tub. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated hot tub has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

Bad point number 1. You state that a fully insulated as you call it tub will be more energy effiecient than a full foam tub. This is simply not true as it has been shown over and over again that both methods of insulating a tub work great and either is a good choice. The reason you are against the one style is because you say it is a bad choice, your opinion. My list of things to look for would not have this kind of blanket statement as both methods of insulation work good.

Also, give us a bit more insight on how the air for your blower gets in the cabinet, by vacuum as you call it.

I await your side step and shuffle.

[BigD]

Jim,

What kind of foam do you apply to your hot tubs? How much foam, in terms of total thickness, do you apply? What kind of thermal foil do you use?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

What kind of foam do you apply to your hot tubs? How much foam, in terms of total thickness, do you apply? What kind of thermal foil do you use?

On the high end spas SE and SC (DAIT level 4) we have five layers of air chambers and a total of R-31 on the exterior walls. The floor is R-11 because the bottom has 5 inches of foam. There are three layers of thermal foils. One is foil foam foil and is the most expensive of the thermal wrap "space" blanket style of insulation. Then we use a layer of wooden frames with thermal foil insulation boards with R-6 conductive and R-14 with air space. Then we have a second layer of thermal foil with bubble syle and the foil facing inside and white on the outside. Then we have wood R-5 on the final layer. The shell is sealed to the frame to stop all cold air infusion. The only place where air can enter is by the bottom near the jet pumps for cooling.

It is the most obvious disign, once you understand how it works.

It is the most insulated cabinet in the spa industry.

On our regular models Vista and Paramount (DAIT level 3) we use three layers of air chamber with foam on the shell, the wooden frames and themal foil foam boards the the thermal foil on the next layer, then wood R-5. This is the second most insulated cabinet in the industry.

Both of these insulation methods are far superior to full foam. The entire equipment area is fully insulated and fully thermally controlled by the DAIT system.

Roger has no idea what we are doing.

With full foam the equipment is always in danger of freezing and it is always loosing heat because you cannot insulate a small box with pumps without causing damage to the pump motors.

[Roger]

The only place where air can enter is by the bottom near the jet pumps for cooling.

Thats what I thought completly unsealed from the outside world. Just a big ole vented nothing.

I have given you a couple better more logical choices on how to do this without just drilling random holes to vent your cabinet. What a stupid idea. Use gravity dampers Jim, they close and seal the space from the wind just blowing in willy nilly. You have a fan for cooling in summer, and most of your models use and air blower for bubbles, if you use gravity dampers you can duct any incoming air right across your pump motor for cooling of the motor or warming of the air for injection. And you can also grab air from a specific area, way up high where the hottest air is, to get a better cooling affect in summer. Holes, even drilled in the bottom of the cabinet is a cheap barnyard style of venting an insulation system like yours. get your head outa your behind and take some advice from this guy you call an idiot. The effect on my moter is unbeilievable for cooling in summer. The warm air is evacuated so fast in winter for air injection that it is barely noticable, so there are still bugs. But the gravity dampers are an off the shelf Grainger item and when installed on a sealed cabinet they are a proffesional looking fit. Unlike holes drilled.

Oh wait. I don't have a clue...sorry.

[Trigger]

Why would anyone buy one of Jim's crap tubs? They are just 2nd rate junk tubs that a fruit loop modifies in a old barnyard without any concern for saftey?

No saftey certification. (But Jim has lied about it in the past). Now he just ignores it.

There is no support. You can spin it anyway you want, but you're on your own with this donkey's tubs.

The man lies.

What else of concern is there to know? Bad design. Unsafe tub, no service and a lying dingleberry steering the ship?