Sometimes I Miss These Things

[Jim_The_Jim]

Chas stated: A

"A spa with NO suction fittings is a safer design than having suction fittings. The ETL, UL, and ANSI all understand that - you seem to be the only person who does not."

Jim's response;

Here is the exact quote from the ANSI safety standard.

Quoted:

"8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote. "

It clearly says that the suction area needs to be two separate places in the spa, as a minimum and they need to be on a separate plane if they are closer than 3 feet apart. The reasons are easy to understand if you look at the human body. You do not want two parts of your body to be sucked onto both fittings at the same time if the suction faces were to be broken at the same time. This is a very well thought out safety rule that takes into account all possiblities.

Your Hot Spring spas violate this rule and you are telling people that having no suction fittings is safer? What sort of person would say crap like that? Perhaps it is a person who has dedicated his life to being the pupet of a company that he relies on for income??? Just maybe??? Just maybe he has never really thought about all this before? (one more benefit of the doubt given to you.)

Again the standard and what you said below is not in your spas. You stated that the standard is for dual suctions and they both have to have equal draw and have the abiltiy to both take the full flow of the jet pumps. (That is exactly what we do in our Haven Spas. and every other spa company I have found does the same thing except for Hot Spring.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chas stated: B

"Also - saying "all the suction is in one area" is like saying that all the drains in your house are in one area."

Jim's response:

Why is it that sales people always compare things that are unrelated and expect stupid consumers to believe it has any comparison. They are always going "We have the Mercedes of hot tubs" of some such crap. Now, he wants us to compare the sewer in your home to a live powered suction on a hto tub. That is really a bad thing to do.

While you are at it why not compare it to something that is a better comparison. How many electricians do you know will install a 30 to 60 amp sub panel in a house that is made out of plastic? How many will install open connectors inside of a house with flamables around it? That is exactly what you company did that started the fires. You said it was a poor connector, but it was a poor connector that was not contained in a box that would stop the fire.

How many forms of "protection" can you try? All of them are bogus and are verifiably bogus by outside sources.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chas stated: C

"And finally - will you PLEASE go help your 'friend' Mel understand that if his filters are clogged, his suction fitting will be pulling in VERY strongly and should be watched closely. And if you have modified his spa by installing larger pumps than the ones ETL tested, you may have to help him out with some extra suction fittings - yes, two per pump is the minimum, but there is also a provision stating that ONE of those fittings needs to be capable of matching the full water flow of the pump by itself."

Jim's Response:

Man you do not even know when you are contradicting yourself. You know that for years your company put regular filters on spas a couple of 30 Sq ft. According to the filter manufacturers the maximum recommended is 45 Gallons per minute on 60 sq ft. That is to give a safety factor or percentage of built in safety to stop fires in the pumps as the burn out. If the 'rule of thumb" is one gallon per minute per sqare foot on a pressure fitler and 25% less on a suction, then when your company put in 80 Gallon per minute pumps on two 30 sq ft filters, they were risking fires again.

Do you remember that back when I first started in this industry I was at the counter of the spa store, when a Hot Spring owner brought in two fiters that were sucked so hard they looked like "hour glasses". I turned to the owner of the store and said: "What on earth could cause this?" He told me that Hot Spring blocks the suction with filters and they have no second suction.

Now you are telling me that my spas with dual suction are not good enough but you spa with a single suction is good enough, and you are the expert on safety above and beyond the ANSI and UL?

Did you read about that child recently who was sucked into a single filter suction on an older spa with the missing grate? His mother had the presence of mind to turn off the power as soon as she heard her child screaming and she saved his life. Is that the legacy you want to leave?

Have you ever put you hand over a blocked suction and felt the force of it? A full grown weight lifter can be killed by that, becasue with all his might there is no way to pull off.

Here is a Master Spa that does it according to UL and ANSI standards.

Notice the filter housing and five UL safety suctons, six suctions total. This is common with all UL and ETL listed spas except for Hot Spring.

Chas seems to want the world to believe his fantasy that having a single filter housing is ANSI conforming.

It is not.

[hottubdan]

Jim,

Um, Chas also sells Caldera spas which meet the standards as you moronically, continuosly quote.

By the way, do you know the history of Watkins Mfg? Do you know they started in a garage with the same design and were the 1st (or 2nd) to be UL listed...long before they were the marketing giant they are accused of being today.

[tumbleweed]

Chas stated: A

"A spa with NO suction fittings is a safer design than having suction fittings. The ETL, UL, and ANSI all understand that - you seem to be the only person who does not."

Jim's response;

Here is the exact quote from the ANSI safety standard.

Quoted:

"8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote. "

It clearly says that the suction area needs to be two separate places in the spa, as a minimum and they need to be on a separate plane if they are closer than 3 feet apart. The reasons are easy to understand if you look at the human body. You do not want two parts of your body to be sucked onto both fittings at the same time if the suction faces were to be broken at the same time. This is a very well thought out safety rule that takes into account all possiblities.

Your Hot Spring spas violate this rule and you are telling people that having no suction fittings is safer? What sort of person would say crap like that? Perhaps it is a person who has dedicated his life to being the pupet of a company that he relies on for income??? Just maybe??? Just maybe he has never really thought about all this before? (one more benefit of the doubt given to you.)

Again the standard and what you said below is not in your spas. You stated that the standard is for dual suctions and they both have to have equal draw and have the abiltiy to both take the full flow of the jet pumps. (That is exactly what we do in our Haven Spas. and every other spa company I have found does the same thing except for Hot Spring.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chas stated: B

"Also - saying "all the suction is in one area" is like saying that all the drains in your house are in one area."

Jim's response:

Why is it that sales people always compare things that are unrelated and expect stupid consumers to believe it has any comparison. They are always going "We have the Mercedes of hot tubs" of some such crap. Now, he wants us to compare the sewer in your home to a live powered suction on a hto tub. That is really a bad thing to do.

While you are at it why not compare it to something that is a better comparison. How many electricians do you know will install a 30 to 60 amp sub panel in a house that is made out of plastic? How many will install open connectors inside of a house with flamables around it? That is exactly what you company did that started the fires. You said it was a poor connector, but it was a poor connector that was not contained in a box that would stop the fire.

How many forms of "protection" can you try? All of them are bogus and are verifiably bogus by outside sources.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chas stated: C

"And finally - will you PLEASE go help your 'friend' Mel understand that if his filters are clogged, his suction fitting will be pulling in VERY strongly and should be watched closely. And if you have modified his spa by installing larger pumps than the ones ETL tested, you may have to help him out with some extra suction fittings - yes, two per pump is the minimum, but there is also a provision stating that ONE of those fittings needs to be capable of matching the full water flow of the pump by itself."

Jim's Response:

Man you do not even know when you are contradicting yourself. You know that for years your company put regular filters on spas a couple of 30 Sq ft. According to the filter manufacturers the maximum recommended is 45 Gallons per minute on 60 sq ft. That is to give a safety factor or percentage of built in safety to stop fires in the pumps as the burn out. If the 'rule of thumb" is one gallon per minute per sqare foot on a pressure fitler and 25% less on a suction, then when your company put in 80 Gallon per minute pumps on two 30 sq ft filters, they were risking fires again.

Do you remember that back when I first started in this industry I was at the counter of the spa store, when a Hot Spring owner brought in two fiters that were sucked so hard they looked like "hour glasses". I turned to the owner of the store and said: "What on earth could cause this?" He told me that Hot Spring blocks the suction with filters and they have no second suction.

Now you are telling me that my spas with dual suction are not good enough but you spa with a single suction is good enough, and you are the expert on safety above and beyond the ANSI and UL?

Did you read about that child recently who was sucked into a single filter suction on an older spa with the missing grate? His mother had the presence of mind to turn off the power as soon as she heard her child screaming and she saved his life. Is that the legacy you want to leave?

Have you ever put you hand over a blocked suction and felt the force of it? A full grown weight lifter can be killed by that, becasue with all his might there is no way to pull off.

Here is a Master Spa that does it according to UL and ANSI standards.

Notice the filter housing and five UL safety suctons, six suctions total. This is common with all UL and ETL listed spas except for Hot Spring.

Chas seems to want the world to believe his fantasy that having a single filter housing is ANSI conforming.

It is not.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/general.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/as.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Stevie]

No Jim...sometimes you miss A LOT!

Put the wine glass down and kindly step back from your computer....

[Jim_The_Jim]

No Jim...sometimes you miss A LOT!

Put the wine glass down and kindly step back from your computer....

With most all the people posting on this forum being spa sales people, and with all the evidence I have put here, each time you answer, consumers are still reading all of this and very few would ever post on this mess.

I cannot understand why any representative from any other spa company would be so ignorant as to defend Hot Spring. Since, Hot Spring is screwing you as well as all the other brands of hot tubs by creating a standard that others are forced to follow but they don't follow it. You should be on the bandwagon of helping me to rid the world of this injustice against you. That is really stupid for you to be opposed to my education on Hot Spring.

In case you have not been keeping up with current events, I don't slam your products to much any more, because of all the improvements you have made, that include brands that used to be so bad that I considered them to be trash.

When was the last time I said anything bad about your spas? Was it five years ago, six, three?? You think about it. The only super bad company is Hot Spring with this blatent disregard for safety rules.

When you get these guys going they start making ridiculous statements, like Chas just did.

He just told the world that everybody but Hot Spring has to have dual suctions.

Did you miss that?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

Um, Chas also sells Caldera spas which meet the standards as you moronically, continuosly quote.

By the way, do you know the history of Watkins Mfg? Do you know they started in a garage with the same design and were the 1st (or 2nd) to be UL listed...long before they were the marketing giant they are accused of being today.

I know more about them than you do. I pretty much know the entire history of the company.

Back when they first got the UL there were no ANSI standards.

They sat on the "board" that made these standards and because of it they make every other spa company have to build spas different than they do. It is a marketing ploy and is not even good hydraulic engineering.

And why would anybody come to the rescue of Hot Spring on something that direcly violates the ANSI standards.

Here is something you might want to read again:

http://www.spashopperguide.com/cgi-bin/for...fig.pl/read/121

I just went on Cal Spas site and found a random model, and by golly it is ANSI conforming.

Three suctons and two filters. That is five areas of suction inlet all separated nicely.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

I cannot find a single brand of spa that violates the ANSI except for Hot Spring.

Here is a Hot Spring spa with a single area of suction inlet at the filter housing.

The Cal Spa has two filters and three suction fittings.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Here is a Great Lakes Spa. I don't want anybody to feel left out.

Notice the UL safety suctions in the foot well and the filter housing.

It sure looks like an ANSI UL conforming spa.

This spa does not follow the dual safety suction rule of the ANSI

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

[Trigger]

I dunno.

Why would anyone buy a 2nd quality hot tub modified by a donkey, in a barnyard that can't provide service? Jim's own customers report that

When one of the plastic dishes or tubs or whatever the kids are playing with get sucked over one of the intakes, the affected pump starts making all kinds of hurtful noises and the plastic toy gets crushed and is impossible to remove without turning off the pump (or whole spa if it is in the filter cycle)?

That's what happens with a haven Spa. Anyone who has a child would be well advised to keep them far away from this man and his homemade tubs.

The above condition, reported by a Haven customer a few days ago, is exactly the situation ANSI is trying to avoid. Jim's only response is "I made the tub right accourding to specs" when infact the tub has no certifiacations, and creates a deadly sitation.

That's a fact.

[Stevie]

I dunno.

Why would anyone buy a 2nd quality hot tub modified by a donkey, in a barnyard that can't provide service? Jim's own customers report that

When one of the plastic dishes or tubs or whatever the kids are playing with get sucked over one of the intakes, the affected pump starts making all kinds of hurtful noises and the plastic toy gets crushed and is impossible to remove without turning off the pump (or whole spa if it is in the filter cycle)?

That's what happens with a haven Spa. Anyone who has a child would be well advised to keep them far away from this man and his homemade tubs.

The above condition, reported by a Haven customer a few days ago, is exactly the situation ANSI is trying to avoid. Jim's only response is "I made the tub right accourding to specs" when infact the tub has no certifiacations, and creates a deadly sitation.

That's a fact.

EXACTLY!!!!

[wesj53]

I AM NOT A DEALER SO I HAVE NO BIASES. Just a newbie who has been looking for a spa and have thoroughly researched as many models and mfg as possible here in Chicago. While I think Jim the Jim needs to control his emotions a bit better in these dialogues, I agree with him that it seems to this layman that Hot Springs is in the wrong by not having any suction outlets. All others we have seen have them and based on my understanding ot how the pumps and filters work, they should have them. Plus, I personally think Hot Springs are overpriced based on the number of jets they offer vs. other mfgs like Artesian. I think HS is riding on their name and does not provide the best value for a consumers money. Just my thoughts.

[Stevie]

I AM NOT A DEALER SO I HAVE NO BIASES. Just a newbie who has been looking for a spa and have thoroughly researched as many models and mfg as possible here in Chicago. While I think Jim the Jim needs to control his emotions a bit better in these dialogues, I agree with him that it seems to this layman that Hot Springs is in the wrong by not having any suction outlets. All others we have seen have them and based on my understanding ot how the pumps and filters work, they should have them. Plus, I personally think Hot Springs are overpriced based on the number of jets they offer vs. other mfgs like Artesian. I think HS is riding on their name and does not provide the best value for a consumers money. Just my thoughts.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion and not every spa is obvioulsy right for everyone. Some of the best values in my opinion are spas that are NOT listed in the top 5 by most. I have tested many spas and there are many that will out perform a HS though I don't doubt they are a decent product.

[Dr. Spa]

It's time for some factual information here! The following is a DIRECT quote from ANSI/NSPI-2. This is the AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PUBLIC SPAS it's also in ANSI/NSPI-3, AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PERMANENTLY INSTALLED RESIDENTIAL SPAS. sorry folks, at the moment I can't the standard for portable spas (ANSI/NSPI-6). There's a preface to the standards that states the following. THIS IS COPY and PASTED from the document (I'm probably now in trouble for copyright infringement ).....;

"The use of American National Standards is completely voluntary; their existence does not in any respect preclude

anyone, whether he has approved this standard or not, from manufacturing, marketing, purchasing or using

products, processes or procedures not conforming to the standards."

The document then continues with a "Forward"..........

"The objective of this standard is to provide recommended minimum guidelines for the design, equipment, installation, and use

of public spas. It is also intended to assist local jurisdictions and other regulatory bodies, where necessary, in the development

and promulgation of criteria for public spas."

I personally like the following.......;

"Special thanks to the following whose contributions and dedication made this standard possible:

Steve Macey, Watkins Manufacturing"

The following is from ANSI/NSPI-2, I also know it is in ANSI/NSPI-6...

ARTICLE 1.1.1

The provisions of this specification are not

intended to prevent the use of other designs

provided that any variation from the

specifications in this standard provide the

required quality, strength, durability and

safety for the intended use and are approved

by the authority having jurisdiction.

Nonfollish comments welcome .............. you owe me now Chas

[East TX Spa]

Terminator

[Chas]

[/b]Nonfoolish comments welcome .............. you owe me now Chas

What are you talking about? I already owed you before this great post!

Thanks.

[Chas]

I personally think Hot Springs are overpriced based on the number of jets they offer

This is Amercia, and you have the right to be wrong. Kidding!

But it is easy to count jets and say that HS doesn't have very many. Take the Vista: there are two jets called the "Soothing Seven." That is actually 14 nozzle in two housings, but of course if WE called it that the competition would scream. Then there is the Dual Moto Massage: it covers your entire back, but it is called one jet. To do the same with regular jets would take at least a dozen small jets or half a dozen larger jets.

Also, keep in mind that HS gives you plenty of variety: you can run the small jets regular or extra spinny by popping in a spin nozzle. They are also very mellow yet effective with the face plate and no nozzle at all. Same goes for the Larger Hydromassage jets: you can run them straight, open or spinner.

No, that doesn't add to the number of jets, but it is very nice to have that much variety and adjustability, and is often overlooked in a quick glance at the 'specs' page of a brochure or web site page. They must be makin' some folks happy, they continue to gain market share - even in a slow year.

Blatant link to HotSpring

[wesj53]

This is Amercia, and you have the right to be wrong. Kidding!

But it is easy to count jets and say that HS doesn't have very many. Take the Vista: there are two jets called the "Soothing Seven." That is actually 14 nozzle in two housings, but of course if WE called it that the competition would scream. Then there is the Dual Moto Massage: it covers your entire back, but it is called one jet. To do the same with regular jets would take at least a dozen small jets or half a dozen larger jets.

Also, keep in mind that HS gives you plenty of variety: you can run the small jets regular or extra spinny by popping in a spin nozzle. They are also very mellow yet effective with the face plate and no nozzle at all. Same goes for the Larger Hydromassage jets: you can run them straight, open or spinner.

No, that doesn't add to the number of jets, but it is very nice to have that much variety and adjustability, and is often overlooked in a quick glance at the 'specs' page of a brochure or web site page. They must be makin' some folks happy, they continue to gain market share - even in a slow year.

Blatant link to HotSpring

Thanks Chas for that info and clarification. I credited you in another post for your fairmindedness even though you are a HS dealer. With that link though, you are beginning to resemble Jim the Jim however!

My wife and I did wet test the HS Grandee and it was nice, but we immediately (same dealer showroom) went into an Artesian and liked it better. I guess different strokes for different folks. One thing I would like to ask is whether the little circulation pumps found in most units burn out regularly or do they wear out quicker in a totally insulated unit faster due to heat build up in their chamber vs. a fully foamed vented product?

[hottubdan]

I know more about them than you do. I pretty much know the entire history of the company.

Back when they first got the UL there were no ANSI standards.

They sat on the "board" that made these standards and because of it they make every other spa company have to build spas different than they do. It is a marketing ploy and is not even good hydraulic engineering.

And why would anybody come to the rescue of Hot Spring on something that direcly violates the ANSI standards.

Here is something you might want to read again:

http://www.spashopperguide.com/cgi-bin/for...fig.pl/read/121

I just went on Cal Spas site and found a random model, and by golly it is ANSI conforming.

Three suctons and two filters. That is five areas of suction inlet all separated nicely.

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

I cannot find a single brand of spa that violates the ANSI except for Hot Spring.

Here is a Hot Spring spa with a single area of suction inlet at the filter housing.

The Cal Spa has two filters and three suction fittings.

I went to your site and read your fiction and laughed. I also clicked onto CPSC and TruHeat Corp. Announce Recall of Spa Heaters from your site. Notice the recall was for TruHeat heaters and were do to faulty wiring in the heater. Had nothing or little to do with the spa. Had nothing to do with UL.

Oh well...your lies don't fly.

[Tyler]

While I think Jim the Jim needs to control his emotions a bit better in these dialogues, I agree with him that it seems to this layman that Hot Springs is in the wrong by not having any suction outlets. All others we have seen have them and based on my understanding ot how the pumps and filters work, they should have them.

I think it's a great idea to have the suction outlets out of the spa area. It seems like a much safer alternative. I'm not sure why you would want the outlets in the spa which could snatch up kids toys, beer bottles, and body parts.

Please explain why this it's a bad idea (and out of compliance) to place the suction outlets in the filter area away from harms way. I don't get it.

[Chas]

"With that link though, you are beginning to resemble Jim the Jim however!"

I'll be sure to watch myself in future. Thanks for the heads up!

"My wife and I did wet test the HS Grandee and it was nice, but we immediately (same dealer showroom) went into an Artesian and liked it better. I guess different strokes for different folks."

Keep in mind that the best spa in the world is the one that ends up in YOUR yard. You'll love either one!

"One thing I would like to ask is whether the little circulation pumps found in most units burn out regularly or do they wear out quicker in a totally insulated unit faster due to heat build up in their chamber vs. a fully foamed vented product?"

The TP units I used to sell were Coleman, back when. They didn't have the small circ pump at the time, and they put the equipment in an insulated/vented box, not in the hot air environment. TP spas have changed, and ironically Coleman has gone to FF.

But the life on most of these little circ pumps is around 7 years, give or take. They are not as sensitive to the temp because they are not vented, have one moving part, and are 'water cooled.' I know that sounds strange since the water going through them is warm to us, but the constant flow of 102 degree water helps them to maintain a stable temp and so the heat is not as much of an issue. The jet pumps are a different story! A Laing Circ pump is about $150 for the part after the warranty, and anyone handy with a screwdriver can put one in if you want to save a service call.

[Jim_The_Jim]

It's time for some factual information here! The following is a DIRECT quote from ANSI/NSPI-2. This is the AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PUBLIC SPAS it's also in ANSI/NSPI-3, AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PERMANENTLY INSTALLED RESIDENTIAL SPAS. sorry folks, at the moment I can't the standard for portable spas (ANSI/NSPI-6). There's a preface to the standards that states the following. THIS IS COPY and PASTED from the document (I'm probably now in trouble for copyright infringement ).....;

"The use of American National Standards is completely voluntary; their existence does not in any respect preclude

anyone, whether he has approved this standard or not, from manufacturing, marketing, purchasing or using

products, processes or procedures not conforming to the standards."

The document then continues with a "Forward"..........

"The objective of this standard is to provide recommended minimum guidelines for the design, equipment, installation, and use

of public spas. It is also intended to assist local jurisdictions and other regulatory bodies, where necessary, in the development

and promulgation of criteria for public spas."

I personally like the following.......;

"Special thanks to the following whose contributions and dedication made this standard possible:

Steve Macey, Watkins Manufacturing"

The following is from ANSI/NSPI-2, I also know it is in ANSI/NSPI-6...

ARTICLE 1.1.1

The provisions of this specification are not

intended to prevent the use of other designs

provided that any variation from the

specifications in this standard provide the

required quality, strength, durability and

safety for the intended use and are approved

by the authority having jurisdiction.

Nonfollish comments welcome .............. you owe me now Chas

Dr Spa. Find another brand of spa that is UL listed and or ETL listed that has a single filter housing and nothing more.

I think that we are going to have this go to the public and to the media soon.

[Jim_The_Jim]

It's time for some factual information here! The following is a DIRECT quote from ANSI/NSPI-2. This is the AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PUBLIC SPAS it's also in ANSI/NSPI-3, AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARD FOR PERMANENTLY INSTALLED RESIDENTIAL SPAS. sorry folks, at the moment I can't the standard for portable spas (ANSI/NSPI-6). There's a preface to the standards that states the following. THIS IS COPY and PASTED from the document (I'm probably now in trouble for copyright infringement ).....;

"The use of American National Standards is completely voluntary; their existence does not in any respect preclude

anyone, whether he has approved this standard or not, from manufacturing, marketing, purchasing or using

products, processes or procedures not conforming to the standards."

The document then continues with a "Forward"..........

"The objective of this standard is to provide recommended minimum guidelines for the design, equipment, installation, and use

of public spas. It is also intended to assist local jurisdictions and other regulatory bodies, where necessary, in the development

and promulgation of criteria for public spas."

I personally like the following.......;

"Special thanks to the following whose contributions and dedication made this standard possible:

Steve Macey, Watkins Manufacturing"

The following is from ANSI/NSPI-2, I also know it is in ANSI/NSPI-6...

ARTICLE 1.1.1

The provisions of this specification are not

intended to prevent the use of other designs

provided that any variation from the

specifications in this standard provide the

required quality, strength, durability and

safety for the intended use and are approved

by the authority having jurisdiction.

Nonfollish comments welcome .............. you owe me now Chas

You just made my point. I don't know if you know how to read and understand. Watkins made these standards and if you want a UL listing on the spas they have to follow these ANSI standards exactly.

It says right on the tag UL 1563 and ANSI.

So they made standards for everybody else to follow. Can you imagine what would happen if everybody started making spas any way thay saw fit like Watkins? It would result in a lot of deaths. Even if Watkins spas are safe or not, it doesn't matter. They do not follow the ANSI and they indeed lost their UL listing after 2003 investigation by UL.

UL is pretty regular about pulling their listing on a product that catches fire for not following the safety rules.

[tumbleweed]

You just made my point. I don't know if you know how to read and understand. Watkins made these standards and if you want a UL listing on the spas they have to follow these ANSI standards exactly.

It says right on the tag UL 1563 and ANSI.

So they made standards for everybody else to follow. Can you imagine what would happen if everybody started making spas any way thay saw fit like Watkins? It would result in a lot of deaths. Even if Watkins spas are safe or not, it doesn't matter. They do not follow the ANSI and they indeed lost their UL listing after 2003 investigation by UL.

UL is pretty regular about pulling their listing on a product that catches fire for not following the safety rules.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/general.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/as.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Chas]

Can you imagine what would happen if everybody started making spas any way thay saw fit like Watkins? It would result in a lot of deaths.

Sorry, but this "thinking" is flawed. First, there have been no deaths in Portable spa products due to any kind of suction entrapment issues. The only suction issue I have ever heard of which related to a portable spa happened in one of your spas, and was one of your customers reporting exactly how strong the suction was at the suction fitting when the filter apparently got dirty or stopped up. It was on one of the spas which you customized by adding more powerful pumps than were tested and approved by ETL - yet you did not increase the number or size of the suction fittings in the poor man's tub. He may very well have an issue someday God forbid, and you will not be able to blame anyone at ETL, Watkins, or even Phoenix when it happens.

I know this will take some clear thinking, so try to follow: Jim claims that HotSpring tubs are not in compliance with the UL/ANSI standard, yet they have an ETL listing which demonstrates compliance with that standard. Even new models which have only been introduced in the past few years have this certification, so we can rule out any kind of 'grandfather clause' or other way of getting around any safety issue real or imagined. The Watkins design clearly meets or exceeds the standards set forth by ETL, UL, and ANSI. Jim seems to be the only one who doesn't get this.

Yet at the same time he is touting this supposed non-compliance on the part of HotSpring tubs, he is selling spas which are NOT ETL listed, and in fact his own customers are posting serious concerns on his web board about the safety of a tub which he admits has been equipped with up-sized pumps, thereby voiding the ETL listing on that unit.

Forgive me, but I find this duplicitous, disingenuous and bordering on psychotic. If ever there was a person who needs to set his own house in order before publicly embarrassing himself touting imagined problems with others, it is this person.

Even if Watkins spas are safe or not, it doesn't matter. Of COURSE it matters. They are not just safe in my opinion, they are safe as documented by ETL testing and certification. This is exactly what this company exists to do, and they have been doing it for a long time. They have spoken, on the record so to speak, history has proved that there have been no incidents or incidences of problems, and to even a casual observer they have found a way to simultaneously exceed the ANSI standard AND add additional filtration for ease of ownership.

They do not follow the ANSI and they indeed lost their UL listing after 2003 investigation by UL.This claim has been offered multiple times without one shred of supporting documentation. There isn't even a page on a web site other than Jim's which supports it. Not one person other than this man seems to think that anything happened other than a manufacturer moving from one testing lab to another. And a simple check of Mapping software will show an ETL lab nearby the factory, and you can go to these various web sites and track a slow migration of testing of parts, subsystems, whole spas and accessories from UL to ETL over a period of years. As new tubs were introduced - in fact whole new lines of tubs such as Solana Spas - testing was moved to the ETL labs for ease, cost savings, and quicker testing and certification processes. So to claim that a listing was 'lost' is an error - to claim credit for causing this imagined event is ludicrous, and if this person had any significance at all in the industry, he would have been sued.

I think any of you who have bothered to read these rants have it figured out: Watkins has designed a different way of doing things. There are companies who put suction fittings in the bather areas, and then there is a company who puts filters on every suction fitting - and segregates those filters away from the bather area. These companies, or at least the ones who have pursued ETL listing, not only comply with the ANSI standard - some of them exceed the suggestions for safety.

I know of one company who does NOT, and it is ironic that the person who makes the largest number of specious posts about it happens to be the proud 'designer' of those very tubs.

I am going to ask a favor -- if you are tired of these rants, tired of this one person hijacking every thread, tired of the constant flow of childish ranting about a subject which has no basis in fact, tired of the name-calling, elementary schoolyard banter and uninformed posting along with constant posturing, please send note to the moderator. I have, and they don't seem to care. But if more of us do the same, perhaps we can get this cleaned up.

The folks who provide this forum have said this, "If you have questions, complaints or suggestions regarding this policy, please redirect your comments to webmaster@bigfishpublications.com"

[Dr. Spa]

I think any of you who have bothered to read these rants have it figured out: Watkins has designed a different way of doing things. There are companies who put suction fittings in the bather areas, and then there is a company who puts filters on every suction fitting - and segregates those filters away from the bather area. These companies, or at least the ones who have pursued ETL listing, not only comply with the ANSI standard - some of them exceed the suggestions for safety.

I know of one company who does NOT, and it is ironic that the person who makes the largest number of specious posts about it happens to be the proud 'designer' of those very tubs.

I am going to ask a favor -- if you are tired of these rants, tired of this one person hijacking every thread, tired of the constant flow of childish ranting about a subject which has no basis in fact, tired of the name-calling, elementary schoolyard banter and uninformed posting along with constant posturing, please send note to the moderator. I have, and they don't seem to care. But if more of us do the same, perhaps we can get this cleaned up.

The folks who provide this forum have said this, "If you have questions, complaints or suggestions regarding this policy, please redirect your comments to webmaster@bigfishpublications.com"

[Trigger]

Jim writes:

Did you read about that child recently who was sucked into a single filter suction on an older spa with the missing grate? His mother had the presence of mind to turn off the power as soon as she heard her child screaming and she saved his life. Is that the legacy you want to leave?

You should also let folks know that the above incident was not with a Hotsprings spa. Your writting style gives the impression that the above incident involved Chas, or a product chas sells. Actually, could you provide a referecne for the above story? I have a suspiscion the tub in question was probably a modified, or custom built unit....kinda like what you do; Sell "one offs" and ":Super Custom" cut rate tubs to unsuspecting folks. Once again Jim, your tub has no saftey certifications.

Meanwhile, back in the land of Nod, Jim's Customers report this about Haven spas....

When one of the plastic dishes or tubs or whatever the kids are playing with get sucked over one of the intakes, the affected pump starts making all kinds of hurtful noises and the plastic toy gets crushed and is impossible to remove without turning off the pump (or whole spa if it is in the filter cycle).