Electric Hook Up Quote

[John Quincy]

Just received quote to hook up hot tub from an electrician. I was hoping to use the existing panel and wiring left by the previous homeowner. The electrician says it all needs to be replaced:

1) Remove existing 70 amp outdoor panel

2) Remove existing wires feeding outdoor panel

3) Install new outdoor 60 amp GFCI panel

4) Install new 6/3 AWG wire to outdoor panel

5) Instal new 12 foot flexibile conduit and fittings with 6/3 wire

The total cost will be $630.

He is saying that the current set up appears to be rigged up and is not suitable for running a hot tub.

My questions:

1) Is this $630 quote fair?

2) Based on the posted pictures, can anyone tell if my current set up is inadequate/unsafe to run a hot tub with specs:

240VAC 3-Wire (2Hots, 1 Ground)

Circuit breaker •50A* Dual-pole GFCI (Hard Wired Only)

Wired Gauge • #6 AWG Copper Only

Thanks.

[Nightop]

I don't know anything about electical codes and what is required however:

If your current one does not have the GFIC you will need that.

As for the rest of it I don't know. For running the electical from our breaker box to another breaker box with GFIC and from there to the hot tub cost us $850 plus permits. So, the $630 looks pretty good to me.

[mikesnowman]

I am not an electrician, but my first question is why are the wires not good? Couldn't they use them? I bought a 50 amp panel and gfi breaker from Menards for $80. I do not think having oversize wire is bad??? You just do not want to overload smaller diameter wire. I would get a second opinion.

[late1]

I am not an electrician, but my first question is why are the wires not good? Couldn't they use them? I bought a 50 amp panel and gfi breaker from Menards for $80. I do not think having oversize wire is bad??? You just do not want to overload smaller diameter wire. I would get a second opinion.

I was thinking the same thing... Why change the #6 copper to the main panel?

You didn't say how many wires there is currently.... black, white, green and bare copper?

And is the ground wire also #6?

My electrician said he had to have 4 wires all #6

[John Quincy]

Thank you for your replies.

From other posts and your replies, it appears that the quote is reasonable. I am now mainly concerned with whether everything is 100% necessary. Does everything need to be junked? I want a safe, adequate system not a pristine, perfect one.

My house has had several previous owners and the last one replaced the air conditioner. It is possible that the hook up is for an a/c unit not a spa although the patio near the box has stains on the concrete that look spa-like.

Can anyone tell from the additional pictures attached below if the existing wiring is 6/3 wire and if the panel cannot be used for a spa:

Panel Guts:

Wiring CloseUp:

Breaker Found Inside Panel:

Master Panel:

As far as explanations go, the electrician is unwilling to go beyond saying that current system is an amauter job and needs to be totally replaced. This is probably do to his frustration with trying to explain electronics to a total novice. It just goes against my nature to spend $630 for something without a little more background (not a lot, just a couple minute explanation would probably satisfy me).

I have called a guy on my soccer team who acted as my home inspector before I met him. He did a great job on the inspection and was able to recommend an electrician so I am planning on getting a second opinion/quote.

The first quote was from the only electrician in the yellow pages who answered his phone (maybe not a good sign). I have no idea if the second guy is a real electrician (license, bonded, training) or more of an all around handiman.

[fdegree]

I am not an electrician either. So, my input could be way off. But, I am under the impression that oversized wires can increase the resistance. Therefore, increasing the amperage that the breaker has to handle. Especially if the length of wire is rather long.

So, the proper size wire should be selected based upon the hot tub load and length of wire. Also, all of this could have an impact on the breaker size/amp rating.

It never hurts to get a second opinion. If there are discrepancies between them, a third opinion may become necessary.

[wireman]

Oversizing wire does not increase amperage. It decreases voltage drop. It's a good thing

You will have to find markings on the wires to determine size. #6 NM is good for 55 amps of non-continuous load. IE: Hot tub. The enclosure on the outside is 3R rated. Good for outside intallation. The ground wire is at least #10 which is rated up to 60 amps as the grounding electrode conductor.

I cannot see the penetration on the top of the outside panel. As long as it is a watertight rated connection it is fine.

One serious problem is the ground is not landed under any bus bonding the outside box. This needs to be remedied.

Depending on some local interpretations of article 680 of the NEC you can use the existing wire and outside panel to feed a 50amp hot tub.

You will need to put a GFCI in the main panel or in the outside panel. And the same with a breaker.

I would look at having a real electrician do the install but not get it inspected unless they are sure there are no problems with local codes or a equipotential bonding grid.

DO NOT higher a handiman to do this install. Handimen should do nothing more than replace a fan or light and do not do electrical work every day. A electrician doing sidework would be suitable if illegal. Same as a electrical contractor not pulling a permit.

If the wire is not #6 NM and the wire does not meet the local interpretation of 680 do not worry about re-using the outside panel or breaker. Breaker $20, Can $20. The GFCI and the wire are the expensive parts. Re-using stuff on a full pull the wire, re-install will probably just slow the EC down.

[fdegree]

Thanks Wireman. So, my input is incorrect. The increase in wire size does not increase amperage, instead it causes a loss of voltage.

Will the drop in voltage cause an increase in amperage at the load?

I realize this is getting off topic, sorry John Quincy...I would like to straighten out my false impressions.

[wireman]

Actually it doesn't drop voltage it decreases voltage drop. On short runs it makes no difference. On a longer run you can lose voltage so you upsize your wire.

[John Quincy]

Fdegree thanks for clarifying things.

Wireman you raised and made good points:

1) On the plus side, the current electrician will absolutely refuse to work with the current set up because he is not satisfied with it. When I could possibly be electrocuted or catch my house on fire by faulty work, it is reassuring that he will accept nothing less than 101%. My conversation with him have convinced me that he knows exactly what needs to be done and his quote shows that he fully intends to do it.

On the minus side, if he would have spent a couple minutes patiently going over the quote, I would not even be here seeking advice. It is this part that is off-putting and makes me think that something is up. Since the current set up gives the general appearance of simply needing a few parts, a brief explanation does not seem too much to ask.

It may be an Oklahoma, California thing. I was recently transferred from California to a small town in Oklahoma and things are definitely different here. In California, it seemed like you needed to question everything to keep from getting eaten alive. My experiences here have been totally different. People here are almost honest to a fault, even car repair men. It is not typical of me to accept a $630 quote for a total redo (when it appear that the current set up just needs a few parts) without anything but a one sentence explanation and it not appear typical for him to offer one.

2) I have spent some time crawling through my attic looking for the wire but have been unable confirm where or which one it is. The attic is somewhat cramped, full of insulation and has just a narrow walkway at the far end of the house.

3) The current panel is definitely watertight and under the eaves of the house. It gives me the impression that it was professionally installed. The whole thing is so tight that I cannot gain access to the wire from this point without substantial work.

4) My guess is, when the appliance that was originally connected to this box was removed, that the ground may have been disconnected along with the breaker. Nothing appears rigged up, just disconnected.

5) The electrician also told me the system would need the GFCI. The GFCI and the connection to the hot tub seem to be a couple hundred dollar job not $630.

6) Whatever I decide to do, it will be done with a qualified electrician.

I appreciate you taking the time to look at this.

My next step will be to make sure the guy my home inspector recommended is a qualified electrician and get a second quote. I do not know whether it would be best to tell him the whole situation or just have him do a totally independent quote. Since this communication thing seems to just generate distrust on both sides maybe I need to stick with getting a simple quote. Lord help me if the next guy gives a totally opposite quote saying everything is basically fine. Does one just go on gut feel at that point?

[wireman]

Read my response again hot tub brother! I'm a real electrician giving you real advice. If the wire is #6 NM is it good for 55 amps of hot tub load. Period. If it is #8 it is good for 40amps. I would only get it inspected if the local inspectors do not enforce the copper to the panel rule or the equipotential grounding, see Arcticle 680 NEC or they have an exception for them.

[wireman]

And definetly check a few other contractors. You might not get a bid on this but a reputable contractor is worth it. On this job I personally wouldn't show up and bid it. I would time and material it over the phone with a rough guestimate.

[John Quincy]

Wireman

After re-reading your post, I am getting the sense that the 1st EC is probably a good choice. He is a reputable contractor that will do work that will pass inspections.

Since the current system is not grounded properly and does not include the GFCI, the only major component up for debate is the wire. If everything else but the wire needs replacing, chances are that it too is an issue.

In any case, I will make another attempt to determine the exact AWG tomorrow. I will also quickly check with at least one other local electrician to be prudent.

I am willing to pay a little extra money to get something done right especially when it comes to things that could get me killed.

Things like hot tubs usually come with a few unexpected costs and this is a relatively small one. It will be more than repaid when I can finally climb into my tub for a 100 plus degree soak. My current house was built during the master shower (no bathtub) era so I have been climbing the walls for the year since I moved in.

Thank you for using your expertise as an electrician to assist me.

[wireman]

No problem. I like to share! : ) Sharpens my skills to think about things that aren't straight forward.

[John Quincy]

ALL ISSUES RESOLVED!

With the help of my daughter using a broom stick to pound on the ceiling, I was finally able to squeeze over the a/c conduit and under the rafters to locate the wire in question. It turns out the the wire is wrong spec AWG 8/3 not the correct AWG 6/3. From everything I have gathered (credit is due to Wireman), the 1st EC is doing me a great service by refusing to do anything but quality work for a fair price.

I also talked to my neighbor and the prior owners did use the outlet for a hot tub so I am assuming whoever installed the original electric equipment did so incorrectly. I did meet the original owner once and he did not strike me as a do it your selfer so he probably got it installed. In fact, he was a doctor that laid out quite a bit to remodel the house so I am assuming that he did not do it on the cheap.

This whole exercise has reinforced some valuable lessons for big ticket items purchases:

1) Do not assume anything.

2) Get the facts/specs BEFORE PURCHASE

3) Make sure that the work will meet or exceed the specs.

4) Inspect the work after completion to make sure that it was done correctly.

5) Go with an experienced professional that is accountable for their work.

Wire_Specs

On a lighter note, Snowman (it snowed today):

Wireman you are the best. Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

[wireman]

Course if your hot tub only required 40 amps like mine did you could use that #8. Good luck and give that EC a call so he can come get you hooked up. I'd just junk everything except maybe the breaker in the panel.

Chad

[mikesnowman]

I run a 50 amp through 8-3. Electrician said no problem. I am just thinking that the electrical contractor that bid you is trying to soak you for something you may not need,. What does your tub require? My Sundance needs 60 to run everything or 50 and the heater will not run unless you only run one pump. To date we have not had any sinificant cooling issues, and I have not regretted the 50.

From what I see you should be able to use what you have and just buy a set of breakers, one gfi and one not and a whip. But that depends on your tub. Of course it is only money and if it brings you peace of mind, go with the EC.

[wireman]

You have to understand that #8 is not just #8.. What he has is #8 NM-B. You have to rate the amperage off the 60 degree column in Table 310.16. It is only good for 40 amps. Let say you have #8 THHN in conduit with less than 3 current carrying conductors. It's good for 55 amps. Of course the NFPA grossly oversizes the current carrying conductors for our safety but I always install to National Electric Code when it comes to safety.

[B0Darc]

My electrical hookup was my biggest P.O> about getting my hottub. I did get a perfect installation but the price was... well maximum $$. Before I begin I have to say I have never had it trip the breaker. The problem is that my shady salesperson was saying the average hookup cost was $300... mine was $1,400 (*choke*). I thought it would be a quick and easy job and I even looked into doing it myself... my future son-in-law *wink* is an electrician. I contacted the HomeStore and asked who they used for installs of their line of Spas (Keyes).

Where the spa breaker box ended up being installed was about 8 feet from my main breaker box, but unfortunately the house is mega wired with plenty of 220 so there was no availability to add one more circuit and they had to run #6 all the way from the farthest corner of the house where the electrical service comes in from the street. My spa has 4 pumps and they recommend 50/50 220V. When you are figuring the price of your installation realize the wire alone is about $3/foot... I required 150 feet.

It took two guys 5 hours to complete (!?) but it is righteous. Realize also that the guy you are getting to do yours will be warrantying any previous shoddy work ("amateurish"?) so anybody worth their salt will charge you what it cost to not only install your electrical service but guarantee the installation. Believe me, I tried and get the price down, but they sold me on the fact that it needed to be done right. I have been to friends houses where the breaker trips regularly. This is NOT something to save a hundred bucks on! If it cannot get enough volts it draws more amps and that = heat (motors/pumps) The electrical hook up and a suitable base to install the spa are truly the hidden costs of ownership.

[late1]

... mine was $1,400 (*choke*). ...

I don' feel so bad now.

I paid $1500 and had the exact same problems.

Needed a subpanel installed, an 80' run across the basement, transitioning outside, under a sidewalk, under the Gazebo, up into a new GFI panel and looping into the tub. ( I also had him add a spare conduit so I can run internet, DirecTV and the security cameras)

Took the one guy 2 1/2 days with me helping.