John Quincy

No, I am not using MPS. Although I did buy some today, none has been added to the tub. Once I got rid of the elevated CCs with Chlorine shock and had determined the appropriate daily chlorine dose, it was my plan to experiment with preventing CCs via MPS. This was before I read your reply to lilRed where you stated that MPS was not needed in conjunction with an ozonator. If MPS and ozone generators are both oxygenates that deplete FC, why would only one, MPS, cause CC test conflicts? It will be interesting to unplug it and see how it effects my tests. We are in the middle of a snow storm so the experiment will probably have to wait for a day or two. One of the selling points to ozonators is the ability to keep the water clean with less chemicals. This seems to be the opposite case. I will most likely have to significantly up chlorine doses because the ozone is apparently depleting them so rapidly. Is there an advantage to using bromides with ozonators? Does ozone deplete bromides? If not, one probably could use less and still have clean water. It sure is strange that the water appears crystal clear with no chlorine smell with elevated CCs and no detectible FC after 24 hours. I guess one could have worse problems with a spa than clear water.

In my prior post, I neglected to mention that my tub is brand new and I just installed an ozonator on Tuesday before starting it up. From reading some of your prior posts, I can probably conclude that it was installed correctly because it appears that the ozone is depleting the chlorine and giving me false positives for CCs. Is this possible? A good test would probably be to unplug the ozonator and retest for a few days. Since there is not a detectible chlorine smell at 2 ppm cc, something is up. My apologies for neglecting to mention the ozonator but I was not even sure if it was working or the effects that it would have on my chemistry until reading some of your earlier posts today.

350 gallon spa Received Taylor TF-100 yesterday and tested this morning (approx 9 hours after last adding dichlor): PH 7.5 FC 7.5 CC 2.0 CYA 30-35 T/A 120 CH 120 Everything looks good except for CCs at 2ppm. I am also wondering how CYA could already be at 30-35 ppm after only 10.5 tsp of dichlor. Below is a log of dichlor added to date (in tsp): 12/18-->2.0 12/19-->3.0 12/20-->2.5 12/21-->3.0 ttl----->10.5 12/22-->3.0 oz bleach to shock Spa Usage: Have used every night. 1st night with wife and two kids, after that just myself and daughter (rest of family caught cold). We all have showered before getting into the spa. Every night before getting into spa, I have been testing. The testing has shown no or little chlorine. So I have added 1 to 1/2 tsp of dichlor 30 minutes before entering. After getting out, I have added additional dichlor to reach 2 1/2 to 3 total tsp per day. To date a total of 10.5 tsp has been added. I know that the normal dose should be 2 tsp but have been adding 3 tsp because the test strips do not detect chloring 24 hours after adding. Due to this morning's test of 2 PPM CC and 35 PPM CYA, I have switched to bleach and have added 3 ounces of 6% bleach to shock. Since the test indicated 7.5 PPM FC, I am estimating that the bleach will raise FC to 11.5. As I was basing all my chlorine sanitizer targets on 20 PPM CYA, what should my need targets be for daily chlorine and shock @ 30 to 35 PPM CYA? Today, I am buying an electronic siphon to drain filter well and will wash filter by hose and in dishwasher (no dry cycle) and clean the cover. Should I be concerned about the 2 PPM CC? Am I missing something or overdoing anything?

Thanks for clarifying that pre-bodily submersion CC levels determine when to shock and the great summary. All other sources keep bombarding me with using time not actual water quality levels. There are so many conflicting sources that it is hard to keep ones moorings. Many methods may lead to the same overall result but not if you follow them all at the same time. At the pool supply store, the managers thought it was odd that one would want to use MPS on a non-bromide pool. Instead of MPS, she was suggesting another stabilized chlorine product in addition to dichlor (I think it was a more concetrated form of dichlor). From your reply, this seems more like a matter of what she prefers. If it will not hurt to use it in a chlorinated spa (from all the posts, it seems like it is fine), I would like to try an oxidizer when necessary: 1) It usually is a good idea to use a multi pronged strategy to deal with waste/pests especially if it is fairly benign. 2) Oxidizing agents should clear from the spa more quickly than chlorine shock allowing one to use the spa sooner. 3) As oxidation is one of our bodies main infection fighting methods, it probably works pretty well in the spa. You hit the nail on the head when you said desire to add things to the mix needs to be tempered with "if it ain't broke do not fix it." In any case, I doubt that there will never be a time when the CC levels do not get broke (via me neglecting to add chlorine) and oxidizing is a benign alternative to chlorine. Dupont literature is full of many helpful suggestions (e.g. Do not mix Dupont Spa Care products with those of any other manufacturers." IN BOLD PRINT). While I am on the subject of "if it aint broke don't fix it", the chemical store also suggested that I add scale preventor on start up and weekly. I guess I should have waited for the TF100 and done a calcium hardness plus ph test first. Beside seeing large deposits on the sides of my tub, what test results would determine if I need a scale preventer?

New Spa Owner 350 gallons Going with Chlorine (Dichlor 1st week and a half or so then bleach depending on CYA levels) (have ordered TS-100 but am using strips until it arrives). Thanks ChemGeek for the suggestions. My next challenge is which Shock to use. Is it enough to simply bring chlorine levels to 10 ppm fc every 5 or six days (maybe more depending on tests) or do oxidizers offer any significant advantages? My small town has a couple stores that carry: Potassium Perymonosulfate - The local pool store is pushing this as shock for bromide users. Is this the same thing as Potassium Monopersulfate? Is there any reason why this cannot be used in a chlorine spa as a shock. Dupont's Oxone - Dupont's web site states that this is Potassium Perymonosulfate aka Potassium Monopersulfate. See my questions above regarding this shock. Should I just keep things simple and just shock with chlorine to 10 ppm fc or are there any significant advantages to using oxidizers?

The pvc pipe with 2X6's is a good suggestion especially if one does not have a pallet jack handy. Fortunately, I was prepared with the plywood so the truck driver was happy to wheel it into my back yard. He said the biggest mistake people make is not having any plywood and then wanting him to wheel tubs across turf. The mfg was right about it taking four (grown men) people to lay the tub down. It was not a strain at all. My tub is 350 gallons, packed weight 690 pounds, empty weight 550 pounds (most of the weight such as pumps was already ground side down). Mission accomplished: My biggest problem was getting my chain link fence re-attached. There was no way I could stretch the fence enough to re-attached the brackets that hold the fence to the post by hand (think two grown men pulling using a shovel handle). The tool used to do this by fence pros was quite expensive ($48). I was finally able to do it quite easily using some spare rope and my wife's '91 Camry Wagon: Close up shot: Long action shot: Next up, the electrician then pool supply store for chemicals. Thank you again for the advice.

The driver with Allied Van lines had a lot of experience moving tubs. He was very helpful and got a hefty tip for all his assistance getting the tub through the backyard and onto our patio. With a buddy and myself relaying plywood in front of him and keeping the tub steady, we got it in place with just a little bit of effort in no time flat. The next step will be laying the tub down long ways. I just spoke with the manufacturer and they said that most of the weight is already on the pallet as all the heavy equipment is packed pallet side down. They said four people should be fine for laying it down. I plan on having six people just in case. Thanks for the suggestion about bracing. I will probably have the extra two people brace it to make sure the ground end does not slide when we are tilting the tub to the ground. The electrician is coming tomorrow to replace the whole current hook up from the prior owner. The current wiring is 8/3 and the specs call for 6/3 for my tub. The electrician is where I am taking the biggest unexpected hit. The previous owner did not install things according to my mfg specs or in a way that can pass inspections. The electrician has quoted $630 to scrap and replace everything to standard, which appears to be a pretty good deal. With a little luck, my family may be in the tub for an early Christmas in the next few days.

The K-2106 tests for Bromine, not Chlorine (the FAS-DPD tests use different titrating reagents for chlorine than for bromine). The K-2006C is the same as the K-2006 except that there is a larger quantity of reagents so you get more tests. First of all, I would start by looking at the kits directly from Taylor for a baseline retail price for the K-2006 and K-2006C. Then the best price for the K-2006 can be found on the web at Swimming Pool Supply Company here. Finally, you can get the very similar TF100 test kit from tftestkits.com here and though it appears to be more expensive, it actually has 36% more volume of reagents so is comparable in price (for what you get) to the Taylor kit from Swimming Pool Supply Company. The TF100 is a little different than the K-2006 and this is described in this post. Basically, you don't get the acid/base demand tests that aren't very useful anyway (they don't usually have enough resolution) and you get a CYA test that measures down to 20 ppm instead of 30 ppm. The pH test has a broader range, but I like my K-2006 better for that (I have both), but others prefer the TF100. The TF100 also has a quick OTO chlorine test which is useful for daily rough measurements after you get a hang of how much chlorine to add in a regular routine. The TF100 is probably your best bet for the spa, but the Swimming Pool Supply Company K-2006 Taylor kit would be fine as well. Any other K-2006 test kits are more expensive for the same thing. Richard Thanks for the excellent summary of choices. The TF100 does seem like a better choice: 36% more reagent volume, more granularity on the CYA test and a quick OTO chorine test. It is my understanding that reagents have about a one year shelf life. Is this true? Approximately how long will the TF100 reagents last if I am testing on a routine basis?

Just spoke with the Allied Vanline driver and my new tub will be delivered tomorrow (Monday) morning at 8 am. Scenario: The packed weight of the tub is 690 pounds. It is packed on a standard pallet upright (it will be tall and as wide as the pallet). There are some slight inclines, particularly the drive, and slight tilts. It snowed yesterday (Saturday) but I shoveld and it has almosted completely cleared the cement and driveway. The snow on the grass is a couple inches and crunchy. The driver said he would be willing to try wheeling it into my backyard on a pallet jack provided I supply two pieces of plywood to put on the ground to keep the jack from sinking in the turf. We will do a plywood relay until we reach the cement patio. Here are pictures of the obstacle course into my pack yard: First obstacle, the gate (It is 42 inches so I am assuming that I will have to dismantle the fence. It looks like it will involve a few nut and bolt plus knocking the top cross bar off): Second obstacle, the terrace (tip to myself: empty bird batch before water freezes next time) : Questions: Should I just use a moving service to get it from the curb to my backyard (plywood and tipping the driver will probably cost a bit)? If not, is two people enough (I do not know if the driver is alone) just to wheel it into my backyard? I can probably get one or two guys from work to come over in the morning. After we get it into the backyard, I need to get it off the pallet and lay it down. I plan on doing this later when I can rustle up a crew of friends. At 690 pounds shipping weight/520 pounds spa empty weight, how many guys do I need (4, 5, less or more)? Your suggestions would be most appreciated.

Is the much cheaper,Taylor Complete FAS-DPD Test Kit K-2006 & K-2106, fine for tesing my soon to be arriving spa? After much research last night on this board and others, I have decided to go with chlorine based sanitation. Here are my choices: Complete (Chlorine $68.83): Taylor Complete FAS-DPD Test Kit K-2006 & K-2106 Service Complete $122.06: Taylor Service Complete FAS-DPD Kit K-2006C

ALL ISSUES RESOLVED! With the help of my daughter using a broom stick to pound on the ceiling, I was finally able to squeeze over the a/c conduit and under the rafters to locate the wire in question. It turns out the the wire is wrong spec AWG 8/3 not the correct AWG 6/3. From everything I have gathered (credit is due to Wireman), the 1st EC is doing me a great service by refusing to do anything but quality work for a fair price. I also talked to my neighbor and the prior owners did use the outlet for a hot tub so I am assuming whoever installed the original electric equipment did so incorrectly. I did meet the original owner once and he did not strike me as a do it your selfer so he probably got it installed. In fact, he was a doctor that laid out quite a bit to remodel the house so I am assuming that he did not do it on the cheap. This whole exercise has reinforced some valuable lessons for big ticket items purchases: 1) Do not assume anything. 2) Get the facts/specs BEFORE PURCHASE 3) Make sure that the work will meet or exceed the specs. 4) Inspect the work after completion to make sure that it was done correctly. 5) Go with an experienced professional that is accountable for their work. Wire_Specs On a lighter note, Snowman (it snowed today): Wireman you are the best. Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Wireman After re-reading your post, I am getting the sense that the 1st EC is probably a good choice. He is a reputable contractor that will do work that will pass inspections. Since the current system is not grounded properly and does not include the GFCI, the only major component up for debate is the wire. If everything else but the wire needs replacing, chances are that it too is an issue. In any case, I will make another attempt to determine the exact AWG tomorrow. I will also quickly check with at least one other local electrician to be prudent. I am willing to pay a little extra money to get something done right especially when it comes to things that could get me killed. Things like hot tubs usually come with a few unexpected costs and this is a relatively small one. It will be more than repaid when I can finally climb into my tub for a 100 plus degree soak. My current house was built during the master shower (no bathtub) era so I have been climbing the walls for the year since I moved in. Thank you for using your expertise as an electrician to assist me.

Fdegree thanks for clarifying things. Wireman you raised and made good points: 1) On the plus side, the current electrician will absolutely refuse to work with the current set up because he is not satisfied with it. When I could possibly be electrocuted or catch my house on fire by faulty work, it is reassuring that he will accept nothing less than 101%. My conversation with him have convinced me that he knows exactly what needs to be done and his quote shows that he fully intends to do it. On the minus side, if he would have spent a couple minutes patiently going over the quote, I would not even be here seeking advice. It is this part that is off-putting and makes me think that something is up. Since the current set up gives the general appearance of simply needing a few parts, a brief explanation does not seem too much to ask. It may be an Oklahoma, California thing. I was recently transferred from California to a small town in Oklahoma and things are definitely different here. In California, it seemed like you needed to question everything to keep from getting eaten alive. My experiences here have been totally different. People here are almost honest to a fault, even car repair men. It is not typical of me to accept a $630 quote for a total redo (when it appear that the current set up just needs a few parts) without anything but a one sentence explanation and it not appear typical for him to offer one. 2) I have spent some time crawling through my attic looking for the wire but have been unable confirm where or which one it is. The attic is somewhat cramped, full of insulation and has just a narrow walkway at the far end of the house. 3) The current panel is definitely watertight and under the eaves of the house. It gives me the impression that it was professionally installed. The whole thing is so tight that I cannot gain access to the wire from this point without substantial work. 4) My guess is, when the appliance that was originally connected to this box was removed, that the ground may have been disconnected along with the breaker. Nothing appears rigged up, just disconnected. 5) The electrician also told me the system would need the GFCI. The GFCI and the connection to the hot tub seem to be a couple hundred dollar job not $630. 6) Whatever I decide to do, it will be done with a qualified electrician. I appreciate you taking the time to look at this. My next step will be to make sure the guy my home inspector recommended is a qualified electrician and get a second quote. I do not know whether it would be best to tell him the whole situation or just have him do a totally independent quote. Since this communication thing seems to just generate distrust on both sides maybe I need to stick with getting a simple quote. Lord help me if the next guy gives a totally opposite quote saying everything is basically fine. Does one just go on gut feel at that point?

Thank you for your replies. From other posts and your replies, it appears that the quote is reasonable. I am now mainly concerned with whether everything is 100% necessary. Does everything need to be junked? I want a safe, adequate system not a pristine, perfect one. My house has had several previous owners and the last one replaced the air conditioner. It is possible that the hook up is for an a/c unit not a spa although the patio near the box has stains on the concrete that look spa-like. Can anyone tell from the additional pictures attached below if the existing wiring is 6/3 wire and if the panel cannot be used for a spa: Panel Guts: Wiring CloseUp: Breaker Found Inside Panel: Master Panel: As far as explanations go, the electrician is unwilling to go beyond saying that current system is an amauter job and needs to be totally replaced. This is probably do to his frustration with trying to explain electronics to a total novice. It just goes against my nature to spend $630 for something without a little more background (not a lot, just a couple minute explanation would probably satisfy me). I have called a guy on my soccer team who acted as my home inspector before I met him. He did a great job on the inspection and was able to recommend an electrician so I am planning on getting a second opinion/quote. The first quote was from the only electrician in the yellow pages who answered his phone (maybe not a good sign). I have no idea if the second guy is a real electrician (license, bonded, training) or more of an all around handiman.

Just received quote to hook up hot tub from an electrician. I was hoping to use the existing panel and wiring left by the previous homeowner. The electrician says it all needs to be replaced: 1) Remove existing 70 amp outdoor panel 2) Remove existing wires feeding outdoor panel 3) Install new outdoor 60 amp GFCI panel 4) Install new 6/3 AWG wire to outdoor panel 5) Instal new 12 foot flexibile conduit and fittings with 6/3 wire The total cost will be $630. He is saying that the current set up appears to be rigged up and is not suitable for running a hot tub. My questions: 1) Is this $630 quote fair? 2) Based on the posted pictures, can anyone tell if my current set up is inadequate/unsafe to run a hot tub with specs: 240VAC 3-Wire (2Hots, 1 Ground) Circuit breaker •50A* Dual-pole GFCI (Hard Wired Only) Wired Gauge • #6 AWG Copper Only Thanks.