Filtration -- Marquis V. Hot Springs

[IL Parrothead]

Having trouble falling asleep and just noticed something.

Hot Springs Tri-X filters have 325 sq. ft. of filtration area.

I know Marquis (and others -- Caldera's larger spas come to mind) only have 100 sq. ft.

Any noticeable difference in filtration -- from those of you who might have sold both?

[ivieisme]

there is a good post on this site about 100% bypass vs. regular filtration. It is about 15-20 posts ago, originated by goldengirl w/a question mark icon.....maybe it will help.

[104 Degrees]

Having trouble falling asleep and just noticed something.

Hot Springs Tri-X filters have 325 sq. ft. of filtration area.

I know Marquis (and others -- Caldera's larger spas come to mind) only have 100 sq. ft.

Any noticeable difference in filtration -- from those of you who might have sold both?

Same people are here that are there.I belive Hot springs filters the best. its all the time filtering.

[IL Parrothead]

Yeah, I've read all the stuff about 100% non-bypass filtration. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when water gets to the filter, HS uses 325 sq. ft. versus the other tubs all using about 100 sq. ft. What are the arguments pro/con there? Just curious.

[104 Degrees]

Yeah, I've read all the stuff about 100% non-bypass filtration. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when water gets to the filter, HS uses 325 sq. ft. versus the other tubs all using about 100 sq. ft. What are the arguments pro/con there? Just curious.

I would think 325 is more the 100.

[thestallion]

Yeah, I've read all the stuff about 100% non-bypass filtration. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when water gets to the filter, HS uses 325 sq. ft. versus the other tubs all using about 100 sq. ft. What are the arguments pro/con there? Just curious.

I would think 325 is more the 100.

the circ pump only use one filter that depending on your spa is I believe 30 to 70 sq ft and this is what you are doing the majority of your filtering with in fact unless the jets are turned on this is what all the filtering is done with, it works and works well but it is "a bit" misleading in that many people think the spa is using all of the filters at once when it is filtering and it is not true but again Hot Springs will do a great job of keeping your water clean.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I'm talking about when water gets to the filter, HS uses 325 sq. ft. versus the other tubs all using about 100 sq. ft.

If it is a one jet pump Hot Springs spa it will have 3 filters, a two jet pump version will have 5 filters (two filters per jet pump and one for the circ pump).

When in one of the large spas with the jet pumps turned on the water in drawn through all 5 filters so yes, it will be 325 sq ft in that case. When the jet pumps are off the circ pump draws water through one of the filters.

[thestallion]

I'm talking about when water gets to the filter, HS uses 325 sq. ft. versus the other tubs all using about 100 sq. ft.

If it is a one jet pump Hot Springs spa it will have 3 filters, a two jet pump version will have 5 filters (two filters per jet pump and one for the circ pump).

When in one of the large spas with the jet pumps turned on the water in drawn through all 5 filters so yes, it will be 325 sq ft in that case. When the jet pumps are off the circ pump draws water through one of the filters.

Yes exactly as I said but please it is one filter being used when you are running the circ pump which is the primary source of filtering, nothing wrong with this in any way but it is slightly misleading as most people assume all the filters are used at the same time. when the spa is filtering and it is not the case.

[104 Degrees]

Yes exactly as I said but please it is one filter being used when you are running the circ pump which is the primary source of filtering, nothing wrong with this in any way but it is slightly misleading as most people assume all the filters are used at the same time. when the spa is filtering and it is not the case.

Is hot springs the only one that has 100% no bypass???? do all the other spa makers run there circ pump with a filter???

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Yes exactly as I said but please it is one filter being used when you are running the circ pump which is the primary source of filtering, nothing wrong with this in any way but it is slightly misleading as most people assume all the filters are used at the same time. when the spa is filtering and it is not the case.

The circ pump is on 24/7 so if we assume about 5 GPM then that's 7200 gallons filtered through the circ pump filter throughout the day.

If you use the spa on any given day and for argument sake you run the pumps for 20 minutes then you've filtered 4800 gallons (or so, assuming 120 GPM) through the four jet pump filters at a time when the spa obviously needs it most since its being used (that amount obviously varies depending on the total time the pumps are on).

If you hit the clean cycle while exiting the spa an additional 1200 gallons is filtered though the jet pump (automatically runs 10 minutes).

On a day when the spa isn't used the circ pump does all the filtering. On a day when it is used a good % of the filtering is performed by the jet pumps and their filters.

Parrot,

In the end, either the Marquis or the Hot Spring filtering method will work just fine.

[thestallion]

Yes exactly as I said but please it is one filter being used when you are running the circ pump which is the primary source of filtering, nothing wrong with this in any way but it is slightly misleading as most people assume all the filters are used at the same time. when the spa is filtering and it is not the case.

The circ pump is on 24/7 so if we assume about 5 GPM then that's 7200 gallons filtered through the circ pump filter throughout the day.

If you use the spa on any given day and for argument sake you run the pumps for 20 minutes then you've filtered 4800 gallons (or so) through the four jet pump filters at a time when the spa obviously needs it most since its being used (that amount obviously varies depending on the total time the pumps are on).

If you hit the clean cycle while exiting the spa an additional 1200 gallons is filtered though the jet pump (automatically runs 10 minutes).

On a day when the spa isn't used the circ pump does all the filtering. On a day when it is used a good % of the filtering is performed by the jet pumps and their filters.

Parrot,

In the end, either the Marquis or the Hot Spring filtering method will work just fine.

I completely agree with you both work fine.

[thestallion]

Tech and others would you not agree that more important the filtering the water no matter if your in or out of the spa is sanitizing the water, the filtering plays a key role but in the end it won't matter if you do not keep your water in balance and properly sanitized.

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

Having trouble falling asleep and just noticed something.

Hot Springs Tri-X filters have 325 sq. ft. of filtration area.

I know Marquis (and others -- Caldera's larger spas come to mind) only have 100 sq. ft.

Any noticeable difference in filtration -- from those of you who might have sold both?

If you primarily have only a few people regularly using the tub, go in 'clean' (no soaps, perfumes, skin creams), and take good care of your filters, then the tri-x filters are great.

I have many customers who are not good about cleaning their filters and have lots of traffic in the tub...for these people tri-x filters are terrible. They filter a very fine particle, so naturally if there is a lot of material to filter out then they are going to clog up fast. Also I would not reccomend using Biguanide products with the Tri-x. And once they clog-up they are very difficult to get clean and usable again.

I had one customer where I had to cut out his Tri-X filters with a sawzall because they had sort of imploded on themselves. The middle of them had sucked in so that they were hour-glass shaped and they all had about 2" of 'fur' encapsulating them. It was the second most disgusting thing that I have come across only exceeded by another tub that had yellow water and smelled like urine! This guy had complained about a 'rattling' noise when the jets were on. Well, perhaps the noise was coming from the pot-smoking pipe that had somehow found its way into the pump housing. Good stuff.

[Chas]

the circ pump only uses one filter that depending on your spa is I believe 30 to 70 sq ft and this is what you are doing the majority of your filtering with in fact unless the jets are turned on this is what all the filtering is done with, it works and works well but it is "a bit" misleading in that many people think the spa is using all of the filters at once when it is filtering and it is not true but again Hot Springs will do a great job of keeping your water clean.

I read this the day you posted it, and I thought about replying, but let it go. But it has been in the back of my mind since, and I thought I'd give it a go.

First, I'm sorry if some person led you astray in this regard. To my knowledge, HotSpring dealers would never try to mislead customers about our filtration system: it is what it is, and we are very proud of it. There is one filter dedicated to the small circ pump - which runs constantly. That gives extra filtration. But when you kick on the jets - and I have lifted the filter lid and shown this to just about every customer I have had for as long as I can remember - the jet pumps draw through all the remaining filters. The water really gets moving, the skimmer weir drops to allow the water to keep flowing, the rubber duckies come floating over from the far corners of the spa - it's something I want all my customers to see and fully understand. I know the factory trains this way.

You are very close on the numbers: just over 30 square foot each for the regular filters and 60 on the Tri-X filters. The HP models come with the Tri-X and all models can be retrofit.

As to your statement that you find this somehow misleading - again, I'm sorry if somebody told you something which isn't true, but if you drew this conclusion by yourself, then I think you should be a little easy on accusing Watkins dealers. I go into great detail about the filtration system both here on the board and in my store - so that people can understand the concept of no-bypass filtration, and that gives full explanation that one filter is for the small pump. I can't tell you how many times I have posted the little schematic diagram showing exactly how the filters are hooked up, and Chris from East Texas has put up his funny version many many times as well.

BTW - the main filtration is when the jets are running and all filters are working. That is when the tub is in use, and is exactly when you need filtration. You don't really need to pay for all the energy to run that kind of filtration while the tub sits idle. So, during those times, the small pump keeps water moving, heats as needed, and does some filtering to boot. Win win.

Thank you for the chance to clears things up.

[thestallion]

the circ pump only uses one filter that depending on your spa is I believe 30 to 70 sq ft and this is what you are doing the majority of your filtering with in fact unless the jets are turned on this is what all the filtering is done with, it works and works well but it is "a bit" misleading in that many people think the spa is using all of the filters at once when it is filtering and it is not true but again Hot Springs will do a great job of keeping your water clean.

I read this the day you posted it, and I thought about replying, but let it go. But it has been in the back of my mind since, and I thought I'd give it a go.

First, I'm sorry if some person led you astray in this regard. To my knowledge, HotSpring dealers would never try to mislead customers about our filtration system: it is what it is, and we are very proud of it. There is one filter dedicated to the small circ pump - which runs constantly. That gives extra filtration. But when you kick on the jets - and I have lifted the filter lid and shown this to just about every customer I have had for as long as I can remember - the jet pumps draw through all the remaining filters. The water really gets moving, the skimmer weir drops to allow the water to keep flowing, the rubber duckies come floating over from the far corners of the spa - it's something I want all my customers to see and fully understand. I know the factory trains this way.

You are very close on the numbers: just over 30 square foot each for the regular filters and 60 on the Tri-X filters. The HP models come with the Tri-X and all models can be retrofit.

As to your statement that you find this somehow misleading - again, I'm sorry if somebody told you something which isn't true, but if you drew this conclusion by yourself, then I think you should be a little easy on accusing Watkins dealers. I go into great detail about the filtration system both here on the board and in my store - so that people can understand the concept of no-bypass filtration, and that gives full explanation that one filter is for the small pump. I can't tell you how many times I have posted the little schematic diagram showing exactly how the filters are hooked up, and Chris from East Texas has put up his funny version many many times as well.

BTW - the main filtration is when the jets are running and all filters are working. That is when the tub is in use, and is exactly when you need filtration. You don't really need to pay for all the energy to run that kind of filtration while the tub sits idle. So, during those times, the small pump keeps water moving, heats as needed, and does some filtering to boot. Win win.

Thank you for the chance to clears things up.

first I genuinely appreciate your desire to clearly state how the filtering works but the one key Hot Springs people seem to have a difficult time with, is that when you/they tell a consumer that the spa has 5 filters and that the spa filters 24 hours a day the consumer rightly and fairly assumes that this great that they have 5 filters always cleaning the spas water where other spas have only one or perhaps two. The average consumer does not understand that UNLESS the main jets are turned on those other four filters are not doing a thing and in your wonderfully detailed explanation you do exactly the very same thing, Chris in his funny drawings does the same thing I think you both are more than smart enough to know that most people assume all the filters are working at once when they hear the spa filters 24 hours a day and also how can you with say that the circ pump is not the main way the spa filters ? In the average backyard it is, not everyone turns thier spa on daily it might only be a couple of times a week for many. The filtering on the Hot Springs is one way to filter a spa but certainly not the only way. I think the simple truth about clean water in today's spas; is that when the spas owners is consistent with their water care routine no matter the spa they will have clean water. It is true some company's certainly do a better job in making it easier for the spa owner and that some spas might take a little more effort than others but most of today's spas will do a adequate job of keeping the water clean. You can post all the drawings you want but people will look at them and have very little true understanding of the how the system works. Perhaps you are one of the very few who hammer home the point to people that unless the spa jets are running these other 4 filters are doing exactly NOTHING.

Just to add I think you are a gentleman and fair with your postings, provided Hot Springs is always cast in a most favorable light. Again if you go back and read my posts in this thread I was very clear there is nothing wrong in Hot Springs filtering. All I said and I stand behind it is that the average consumer hears five filters and 24 hours of filtering and they rightfully assume all the filters are working 24 hours a day. I am sure there are long time Hot Springs owners who may read this and still not be clear of what we are talking about.

[JohnInSJ]

I guess I am not most people. I bought a HS/TR spa with a circ pump and had no trouble understanding how it worked.

If the average consumer hasn't figured out by now that they need to read the information that isn't 20 point BOLD at the top of any ad to understand what they might be buying, then they really are going to find themselves being unhappy with their assumptions.

[thestallion]

I guess I am not most people. I bought a HS/TR spa with a circ pump and had no trouble understanding how it worked.

If the average consumer hasn't figured out by now that they need to read the information that isn't 20 point BOLD at the top of any ad to understand what they might be buying, then they really are going to find themselves being unhappy with their assumptions.

John,

The average spa owner unlike yourself is not found on this board. Most people have a hard time remembering what the brand of thier spa is after a very short time. I will give you an example wet testing is almost universally recommended on a board like this, yet less than 10% of people who buy a spa actually do. To be fair with people the average person who buys anything does know all the inner workings of what they are buying but when a salesperson lists the benefits of a product and talks about things like in this case 5 filters and 24 hour filtering the majority of people assume all filters are in use all the time. If you sat in our store you would have a much greater appreciation of this when people come in and can't understand why one of the filters is always dirtier than the others. This is just how the filtering works its not bad in again any way. I am not even saying the salesman are doing anything wrong. I am simply saying people hear 5 and 24 and that's what they think is always working.

[Chas]

While I appreciate your reply, and honor your opinion, I guess it would be fair to say that I have had experience with far more HotSpring dealers, and with far more HotSpring customers than you. I am trying to base my comments on that experience, and put it in a light which a shopper is most likely to hear and understand.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree: I don't know of any way to find out if people are all getting the same idea you did or not. I would like to - if people are being misled I know I would be the first to want to clarify it, and the factory would jump in line in a flash.

I will say this - I think HotSpring dealers do a great job of showing three, four or five filters and pointing out that one is in use all the time. We are trained that way from the factory - the brochures and web site do their best to make it clear, and the fact that only one other major maker uses a no bypass arrangement is a big deal to us. We point it out all the time, and in doing so we are making it as clear as we can that one filter runs on the circ pump at all times.

I could almost make a living just on this one point: if I had five bucks for every time I open the filter lid and the shopper asks, "wow, why so many filters?"

That is the open door to explaining why HotSpring filtering system is different, and in my opinion, better. And that is exactly when I point to the one filter which is running right now - I always pause for effect as it sinks in that the spa is filtering silently as we stand there without hearing a sound - and then I point out the other filters. At that point I start adding in jet pumps as the water flow begins to go crazy.

I really thing that somewhere along the line you got the wrong idea about this and you are thinking that everyone else has too. It is one thing to say that you got a wrong idea about a feature on a product, and quite another to offer the opinion that somebody is trying to willfully mislead the consumers.

One more thing - the simple fact of the matter is this: on a HotSpring spa, let's use the Grandee for example, there is over 300 square feet of filtering area. It's there. It works. It works exactly the way it should work, and it does it well. So the fact that one filter runs around the clock as extra filtration, and then the remaining filters kick in exactly when you need them the most is an added benefit in my opinon, not some version of bait and switch.

[East TX Spa]

In all of the years I have been selling HotSpring Spas, I have not had A SINGLE customer ask if water is being drawn through all five filters all of the time. The only two times I have ever seen it even mentioned were on spa forums BY spa salesmen that sell other brands.

When customers come to my store, I make it very simple for them to understand: All of the water in a HotSpring Spa is filtered before it ever goes into the pump. Period. There are no by-pass valves anywhere in the spa that allow debris to BYPASS the filters. I show them that when the spa is sitting there silently filtering the water, debris is still being captured by one of the filters and it will tend to get dirtier than the others. It is very simple for people to understand. No deception necessary.

I've asked the same question over and over and over and no one ever answers:

Is it better to filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing or is it better to NOT filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing.

It is the most simple question in the world, I would think.

Terminator

[Chas]

I've asked the same question over and over and over and no one ever answers:

Is it better to filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing or is it better to NOT filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing.

Terminator

I would be happy to anwer that question! Sorry you had to ask more than once...

[thestallion]

While I appreciate your reply, and honor your opinion, I guess it would be fair to say that I have had experience with far more HotSpring dealers, and with far more HotSpring customers than you. I am trying to base my comments on that experience, and put it in a light which a shopper is most likely to hear and understand.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree: I don't know of any way to find out if people are all getting the same idea you did or not. I would like to - if people are being misled I know I would be the first to want to clarify it, and the factory would jump in line in a flash.

I will say this - I think HotSpring dealers do a great job of showing three, four or five filters and pointing out that one is in use all the time. We are trained that way from the factory - the brochures and web site do their best to make it clear, and the fact that only one other major maker uses a no bypass arrangement is a big deal to us. We point it out all the time, and in doing so we are making it as clear as we can that one filter runs on the circ pump at all times.

I could almost make a living just on this one point: if I had five bucks for every time I open the filter lid and the shopper asks, "wow, why so many filters?"

That is the open door to explaining why HotSpring filtering system is different, and in my opinion, better. And that is exactly when I point to the one filter which is running right now - I always pause for effect as it sinks in that the spa is filtering silently as we stand there without hearing a sound - and then I point out the other filters. At that point I start adding in jet pumps as the water flow begins to go crazy.

I really thing that somewhere along the line you got the wrong idea about this and you are thinking that everyone else has too. It is one thing to say that you got a wrong idea about a feature on a product, and quite another to offer the opinion that somebody is trying to willfully mislead the consumers.

One more thing - the simple fact of the matter is this: on a HotSpring spa, let's use the Grandee for example, there is over 300 square feet of filtering area. It's there. It works. It works exactly the way it should work, and it does it well. So the fact that one filter runs around the clock as extra filtration, and then the remaining filters kick in exactly when you need them the most is an added benefit in my opinon, not some version of bait and switch.

lol..interesting interesting. Diamante spas has 240 sq of filtering and they are running more water though those filters in an average day than does Hot Springs, I would not say that makes them better or even equal. I would say that numbers that are larger or more are not always better or the only way. Chas you bring up an interesting point. About Hot Springs and only one other maker to offer the no by pass. It is a fair question to ask that if it was dramatically better than most other spas and gave Hot Springs such a huge edge other makers would do something similar, I think what it really points to is that other makers feel the trade offs do not offer enough value in their opinion to make the change.

[ivieisme]

When my Hot Springs dealer showed me the filters, he showed me that the one main filter that works 24 hours is the first to get dirty. Undo the latch, if it floats it is clean, if not it is dirty. No need to check all of them. I thought it was pretty simple. He was very matter-of-fact that ONE is the 24 hour one.

[thestallion]

In all of the years I have been selling HotSpring Spas, I have not had A SINGLE customer ask if water is being drawn through all five filters all of the time. The only two times I have ever seen it even mentioned were on spa forums BY spa salesmen that sell other brands.

When customers come to my store, I make it very simple for them to understand: All of the water in a HotSpring Spa is filtered before it ever goes into the pump. Period. There are no by-pass valves anywhere in the spa that allow debris to BYPASS the filters. I show them that when the spa is sitting there silently filtering the water, debris is still being captured by one of the filters and it will tend to get dirtier than the others. It is very simple for people to understand. No deception necessary.

I've asked the same question over and over and over and no one ever answers:

Is it better to filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing or is it better to NOT filter all of the water BEFORE it enters the spas pumps, heaters, and plumbing.

It is the most simple question in the world, I would think.

Terminator

I suppose that points out that most people assume it to be so. I find very very hard to believe that Hot Springs sales people really never think that their customers think that all the filters are working when they are hearing 24 hour of filtering time. To be very honest about it for me it is a little self serving to not even acknowledge this might be the case.

I will answer your question. In a very broad and general way yes you could say it would better. how much so 5 % maybe 10% enough to make a real world difference ? I am not so sure. Is the trade off of not having the main plumbing on the spa filtered with-out the jets being turned on something to consider ? All I am saying is that Hot Springs filtering works just fine. The question of this poster of this thread was 325 vs 100 sq ft of filtering and I pointed out that the circ which runs 1440 minutes in a day is only between 30 and 70 ft of filtering and if you run the jets each and everyday jets for 30 minutes you still have 1410 minutes of which the other filters are not doing anything and again since you mention questions that are not answered I will ask again how does someone like Chas say that the circ pump is not the main way the spa filters ? Now if you take what a swimming pool does in comparison both (325 or 100) in terms of sq ft are more than enough. Hers is the bottom line for me. Hot Springs do a great job of filtering but there are trade-offs with their system that other makers do not have to make and the same goes for advantages for the Hot Springs. In todays world of spas just about everyone will keep your water clean. You mention a question that you ask and have not had answered I have asked this and it also is never responded to. And that is do you feel it is more important to keep your water care routine consistent and regular making sure your water is in balance and properly sanitized and if so no matter your spas filtering method you will have safe and clean water.

[Chas]

Chas you bring up an interesting point. About Hot Springs and only one other maker to offer the no by pass. It is a fair question to ask that if it was dramatically better than most other spas and gave Hot Springs such a huge edge other makers would do something similar, I think what it really points to is that other makers feel the trade offs do not offer enough value in their opinion to make the change.

That is a huge assumption. I think it would be just as fair to assume that they don't have the engineering skill to make it work well, or that they have to hang huge pumps to get decent jet action, or that they want to be different, or that they don't have the cash flow needed to get the better prices on some of the hardware needed to make it work just right, or that they have always done it that way and don't want to change because it might make them look like they agree with a competitor who is eating their lunch, or that any of a dozen other reasons could and most likely are true.

I would have to assume that those other manufacturers are happy with the choices they have made in this regard - they must be or they would change. But since the largest number of tubs sold on the planet are made by HotSpring, I would say that there are millions of other people who made the choice for this filtration system. So it is a simple fact: in terms of simple numbers of spas, 'Most spas' are no-bypass systems.

As far as simply changing to a no bypass system, it would take engineering expertise which most small spa makers simply don't have. You can't just move the suction over to a filter, you have to have the entire system designed to get the optimum water flow from filter to jets. HotSpring has done that for over thirty years now.

Is it dramatically better? I don't think so. Is it better? I do think so.

[thestallion]

When my Hot Springs dealer showed me the filters, he showed me that the one main filter that works 24 hours is the first to get dirty. Undo the latch, if it floats it is clean, if not it is dirty. No need to check all of them. I thought it was pretty simple. He was very matter-of-fact that ONE is the 24 hour one.

Now thats not true..... its not the main way the spa filters just ask Chas.....OK I am picking on Chas in hopefully harmless way. Thats great what he showed you good for him. We get customers in who do not understand this and wonder why only one filter seems to be dirty.