First "real" Electric Bill

[Vermonter]

Anyone have any ideas?

Yup... Unless you put a kW meter on the spa and record how many kW it uses over a period of time, all you're doing is guessing at how much power it's actually using. A difference in power consumption between this year and last year only indicates, well, a difference in power consumption for your entire house.

There are many things besides a spa that can increase your power consumption..... Some other appliance that's malfunctioning (like the extra fridge in the garage), a new TV that has a high power stand-by mode, a new computer that's left on all the time, a well pump with a leak, colder ambient temperature (the average temp is a poor indication of expected power use), or any other of probably 100+ things.

It's easy to blame the spa, but all the things I've mentioned above have been discovered to be the real power hogs over the years, and eventually reported on various message boards.

While this may be true, in my case, I haven't added anything but the spa in the last year... and the power consumption for every month over the last year is almost exactly the same: 750 kwh/ month. Doesn't go down in the summer, or up in the winter, it's pretty steady (I don't use A/C or electric heat, or even a drier for that matter, so there's not much to change season to season, except perhaps lighting, and I use CF's in all my fixtures)... so I'm pretty darn sure the increase to 1790 kwh is entirely the hot tub.

So, can I just add some foam panel insulation to it?

Thanks,

Tony

[Roger]

While this may be true, in my case, I haven't added anything but the spa in the last year... and the power consumption for every month over the last year is almost exactly the same: 750 kwh/ month. Doesn't go down in the summer, or up in the winter, it's pretty steady (I don't use A/C or electric heat, or even a drier for that matter, so there's not much to change season to season, except perhaps lighting, and I use CF's in all my fixtures)... so I'm pretty darn sure the increase to 1790 kwh is entirely the hot tub.

So, can I just add some foam panel insulation to it?

Thanks,

Tony

Your still only speculating on your tubs energy usage. But if you think adding insulation will help lower it, and it will. But will the savings be much, or worth the trouble? Depends on the spa and it's current insulation skeem. By all means do it, just be carefull to allow proper ventalation. Air infiltration is the key, you need it to cool motors when they reach there operation max temp. But you don't need it when you are trying for effieciency when the motors are below there max operating temp. It's difficult to accomplish just by adding insulation. Sure on a poorly insulated tub, insulated like those sold at box stores, it will help and you'll still have ventalation. But on a tub that has maybe a better insulation skeem your improvements may only garner you a few pennys. Any additional insulation will help. But big motors and a big tub is going to cost alot no matter what.

[TinyBubbles]

____________________________________________________________________________

Can I ask you what type of tub you have. I own a Sundance and it seems to use much more electricity (10 Kwh/day in summer and 18.5 in winter)

Thanks for sharing the real world cost of owning a " premium " spa .

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Your use is normal and don't let a dealer tell you otherwise as you have your bill as proof.

I assume I own what some people label as a "premium" spa, it's an Artesian. Our first power bill with the spa was $35 less than the previous year. The second bill was 60 cents higher than the previous year. The 3rd bill which we received Friday is $6 higher than the previous year, and we've had record breaking cold temps.

[Tom]

Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...

LOL. However, let's check the stats....

The available data suggests that Arctic can not only hold its own but outperform other methods of insulation. Please see the Thermal Performance Test of Spas conducted by the Alberta Research Council and look at the test data for -12C .

[soakerman]

Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...

LOL. However, let's check the stats....

The available data suggests that Arctic can not only hold its own but outperform other methods of insulation. Please see the Thermal Performance Test of Spas conducted by the Alberta Research Council and look at the test data for -12C .

The last Arctic display I saw had the heater disconnected and the salesman elluded to the spa being so efficient that it actually would put power back in the grid:) I couldn't stop laughing, I must admit the display was a good one though.

=======

I thought this was kind of funny, and published it in our dealer newsletter. To my surprise, I later got this email from a dealer. --Tom

A customer who purchased an Arctic Fox Prestige gave me a copy of his December electrical bill.... The bill shows he used less energy in December 2006 then December 2005. He did nothing else to his house. He then said, “It must put energy back into the grid, so how many spas should I purchase to not have a bill at all?”

I also have a complete year of bills from my parents house. 8 months show less energy than the year before. 4 show an increase. At least 10 others have written referral letters stating electrical use of $10 - $15 per month. Again let me know if you want copies.

Michael Swartz

Owner

Heavenly Times Hot Tubs & Billiards

[SmilinBare]

I installed my 400-gallon Arctic tub outdoors on a brick patio in the final days of December 2005 and set it to maintain 104F 24/7. Household electric bill increased an average of 345KWH for each of the months of January, February and March of '06 and '07. At the current cost of $0.15 oer KWH, that's an increase of $52.00 per month for the three winter months. Worth it!!!

[TinyBubbles]

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Hi soaker, I was wondering where you got those statistics? What country do you live in? All the sites I've found dealing with hot tubs and their energy efficiency quote this statistic: An average sized energy efficient hot tub consumes 5-7 kWh per day, while a poorly insulated, inefficient hot tub may use 12-18 kWh per day.

If you take the high end 7 kwh per day for an energy efficient tub for 31 days, that would be 217 kwh per month, which is quite a bit less than your "standard" estimate of 575. If you take the high end of the poorly insulated, inefficent tub of 18 kwh per day for 31 days, that is 558 which is much closer to your "standard". Either way, your "standard" seems too high. In addition, there is clearly not a "standard", since the energy efficient and inefficient spas consume very different amounts of power.

These numbers seem right on the money from my personal experience. Here, our price per kwh is 2 cents. Use their figure of 217 kwh per month and this is only $4.34. It explains why I've seen little or no increase on my powerbill since installing my tub. This month, my power bill was up $6.00 compared to this month last year, but I've added the tub, did a refill during this time and we've had record breaking low temperatures. You just can't argue with those numbers. In addition, you can look at smilin's post which states an increase of only 345 kwh per month. It might be that your spa uses 575 kwh per month, but that doesn't make that a standard.

[conrad]

I posted this in another thread, just wanted to share it with this thread as well.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I bought a Maxxus 3 months ago. Installed in late October, have been very happy with my choice. First full month of electric service was 550 kilowatt hours, or 18.3 kilowatt hours per day. Here is some more info:

* Location west of Boston-MA, rather cold climate is a good "worst case"

* Average daily temperature ranged from 26 to 55 F. Average temp for Nov was 39.7F

* Temperature setting of hot tub is 104F

* 60 AMP hookup

* Always Standard Mode (uses most energy)

* Soak 3 to 4 times per week

* Local electric rate is 9.7 cents per KWHr, translates to $53 dollars per month directly related to hot tub

This is what I expected since the dealer told me in advance electric costs would run between 30 and 60 dollars per month depending on outdoor temperature, tub settings, etc. I don't have my December bill yet, but I expect Kilowatt hours will increase since Dec was a colder month compared to Nov. I will post more info when available.

By the way, there is an economy mode to lower costs, but the tradeoff is a cooler tub. I tried the economy mode, but the tub would not hold the 104 set temperature, and gradually fell to 96F over two days during October. The Maxxus manual states clearly: Standard mode is required to maintain higher temperatures in colder climates.

The cost is less than what I pay for telephone or cable TV, and the experience is definitely worth it!

[Tom]

The last Arctic display I saw had the heater disconnected and the salesman alluded to the spa being so efficient that it actually would put power back in the grid:) I couldn't stop laughing...

You mean you didn't believe him? Well, darn.

[birdman]

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Hi soaker, I was wondering where you got those statistics? What country do you live in? All the sites I've found dealing with hot tubs and their energy efficiency quote this statistic: An average sized energy efficient hot tub consumes 5-7 kWh per day, while a poorly insulated, inefficient hot tub may use 12-18 kWh per day.

If you take the high end 7 kwh per day for an energy efficient tub for 31 days, that would be 217 kwh per month, which is quite a bit less than your "standard" estimate of 575. If you take the high end of the poorly insulated, inefficent tub of 18 kwh per day for 31 days, that is 558 which is much closer to your "standard". Either way, your "standard" seems too high. In addition, there is clearly not a "standard", since the energy efficient and inefficient spas consume very different amounts of power.

These numbers seem right on the money from my personal experience. Here, our price per kwh is 2 cents. Use their figure of 217 kwh per month and this is only $4.34. It explains why I've seen little or no increase on my powerbill since installing my tub. This month, my power bill was up $6.00 compared to this month last year, but I've added the tub, did a refill during this time and we've had record breaking low temperatures. You just can't argue with those numbers. In addition, you can look at smilin's post which states an increase of only 345 kwh per month. It might be that your spa uses 575 kwh per month, but that doesn't make that a standard.

Tiny, where do you live - 2 cents a kwh? I live in KY, we're a little over 6 cents (I think we are the 4th cheapest state). 2 cents is unreal though.

[TinyBubbles]

North Georgia. We are with a local coop and our rates start at 4 cents in the winter and then go to 2 cents. Technically, it's 4.something and 2.something, so I'm rounding.

[soakerman]

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Hi soaker, I was wondering where you got those statistics? What country do you live in? All the sites I've found dealing with hot tubs and their energy efficiency quote this statistic: An average sized energy efficient hot tub consumes 5-7 kWh per day, while a poorly insulated, inefficient hot tub may use 12-18 kWh per day.

If you take the high end 7 kwh per day for an energy efficient tub for 31 days, that would be 217 kwh per month, which is quite a bit less than your "standard" estimate of 575. If you take the high end of the poorly insulated, inefficent tub of 18 kwh per day for 31 days, that is 558 which is much closer to your "standard". Either way, your "standard" seems too high. In addition, there is clearly not a "standard", since the energy efficient and inefficient spas consume very different amounts of power.

These numbers seem right on the money from my personal experience. Here, our price per kwh is 2 cents. Use their figure of 217 kwh per month and this is only $4.34. It explains why I've seen little or no increase on my powerbill since installing my tub. This month, my power bill was up $6.00 compared to this month last year, but I've added the tub, did a refill during this time and we've had record breaking low temperatures. You just can't argue with those numbers. In addition, you can look at smilin's post which states an increase of only 345 kwh per month. It might be that your spa uses 575 kwh per month, but that doesn't make that a standard.

Tiny, where do you live - 2 cents a kwh? I live in KY, we're a little over 6 cents (I think we are the 4th cheapest state). 2 cents is unreal though.

Call your local power company and they have stats for air conditioners and spas.

[blake]

ha-we pay around 11.5 to 12.5 cents per KWH in Houston, TX. Better hope your state does not deregulate like Texas did sold on the idea that consumers can save a bunch of money by choosing their electric provider-what a joke!

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Hi soaker, I was wondering where you got those statistics? What country do you live in? All the sites I've found dealing with hot tubs and their energy efficiency quote this statistic: An average sized energy efficient hot tub consumes 5-7 kWh per day, while a poorly insulated, inefficient hot tub may use 12-18 kWh per day.

If you take the high end 7 kwh per day for an energy efficient tub for 31 days, that would be 217 kwh per month, which is quite a bit less than your "standard" estimate of 575. If you take the high end of the poorly insulated, inefficent tub of 18 kwh per day for 31 days, that is 558 which is much closer to your "standard". Either way, your "standard" seems too high. In addition, there is clearly not a "standard", since the energy efficient and inefficient spas consume very different amounts of power.

These numbers seem right on the money from my personal experience. Here, our price per kwh is 2 cents. Use their figure of 217 kwh per month and this is only $4.34. It explains why I've seen little or no increase on my powerbill since installing my tub. This month, my power bill was up $6.00 compared to this month last year, but I've added the tub, did a refill during this time and we've had record breaking low temperatures. You just can't argue with those numbers. In addition, you can look at smilin's post which states an increase of only 345 kwh per month. It might be that your spa uses 575 kwh per month, but that doesn't make that a standard.

Tiny, where do you live - 2 cents a kwh? I live in KY, we're a little over 6 cents (I think we are the 4th cheapest state). 2 cents is unreal though.

The kwh usage of my tub puts a lot of my electricity used in the top tier of .34 per kwh so it really adds up. My tub seems to use about 9 kwh/day in mild climate.

[KOKO]

Here is the mystery; if the tub dropped 9 degrees in 24 hours you would think the 5.5kw heater would run 2 hours out of 24 to maintain 80 degrees. Why I'm I seeing the kwh usage at 22 and not at 13kwh? I'm thinking the heater is going on and off and isn't as efficient as if it stayed on an hour at a time hence the 22kwh to maintain the water temperature at 80 degrees.

Got-Soaked

No mystery at all. It's all part of Newtons Law of cooling.. The greater the temperature difference the faster the exchange of heat.

Assuming you heat your spa to 100 degrees, and it cools to 91 degrees 24 hours later before you turn back on the heat... The system will need to run for less time to bring the temp back up to 100, than it would if it was continually kept at 100 degrees....

hmmmmmmm, maybe the savings isn't all that small, eh Roger?

Dr. Spa,

You are supporting my argument that the Master Spa LSX1050 is an energy pig. Losing 9 degrees in 24 hours and monthly KW usage between 1000 - 2000 kW is crazy. Either Master Spa doesn’t sell many LSX1050 or owners of them don't mind spending $100 - $250 a month heating their hot tub. I can't speak for others but I rather take this company to court, pay a few thousand $$ up front and cut my losses and buy a D1, Marquis or Hot Springs. This way the next 10 years of owning a high efficiency tub will pay for itself along with lawyer fees it cost to take Master Spa East to court. Right now every time a get my electric bill I go bonkers.

[Water Boy]

Yes, but I am in California where the temperatures are pretty mild. Where do you live and what is your usage. My brother-in-law, who has a Dimensions One and lives in my area, has a much lower bill than mine.

If it were a thermal pane I'd advice you to properly insulate it but since its full foam I know it is insulated well already but your Sundance really should be costing you about the same as your BIL's D1 (assuming similar use). I wonder if you have an issue. The real answer is to put a meter on the spa to see what power it is directly drawing but unless your dealer has that set up its not so simple. I'd start by talking to the service people at the dealer.

That is a false statement. If it is a properly built thermopane spa, such as a Arctic Spa, it isnt necessary to add any extra insulation as it is already properly insulated. Btw, Arctic spas doesnt refer to there method of insulatin as thermopane, even though all people on these boards refer to them as that.

[Water Boy]

and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...no offense to people in the special olympics but im sure they wouldnt hold their own in the real olympics

Again a completely false statement that is uncalled for. Arctic Spas are just as energy efficient if not more energy efficient that other spas, including full foam spas. The link that Tom posted proves that in writing.

[conrad]

2nd Electric Bill Arrived for Month of December

Hot Tub is Sundance Maxxus

* Location west of Boston-MA, rather cold climate is a good "worst case"

* Average temp was 39.7F for Nov, 27.8F for Dec (So December was about 30% colder than November)

* Temperature setting of hot tub is 104F

* 60 AMP hookup

* Always Standard Mode (uses most energy)

* Soak 3 to 4 times per week

* Local electric rate is 9.7 cents per KWHr

* Monthly electricity use: 550 KWHr in Nov, 757 KWHr in Dec

* Monthly electricity cost: $53 in Nov, $73 in Dec

* Increase of 38% in December bill attributed to 30% decrease of average monthly temperature

So am I crying?... no way! I love the hot tub and wouldn't let it go even if the cost was $100 per month. I agree the only true way to know the EXACT cost of hot tub energy cost is through submetering. In fact, you can pick up 100 amp submeters on Ebay for about $90, piece o' cake to hook up. However I have not changed one electrical item in my entire house for the last 15 months except the addition of my hot tub in October and so the use of last years KWHr provides me with a reasonable estimate of cost.

Just for fun, I will order a submeter and collect data for the forum! As a scientist, I hypothesize there is a strong correlation between average daily temperature and average daily KWHrs. Also willing to bet the hot tub will use between $50 and $70 for months Jan and Feb so long as the monthly average temperature for those months doesn't go below 27F.

Anyway, I'll follow up with Jan and Feb data as well as submeter data once I have something to share.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

As a scientist, I hypothesize there is a strong correlation between average daily temperature and average daily KWHrs.

Usage tendencies (how often and for how long), insulating ability and outside temperature are all very key (as well as temp spa kept at when not is use, amount of filtering time, even HP of the pumps, etc. certainly are involved as well).

It'll be great to see what you find. Too bad one of your neighbors doesn't have one of Soakeman's type spas so you could test that as well for comparative purposes.

[Roger]

As a scientist, I hypothesize there is a strong correlation between average daily temperature and average daily KWHrs.

Usage tendencies (how often and for how long), insulating ability and outside temperature are all very key (as well as temp spa kept at when not is use, amount of filtering time, even HP of the pumps, etc. certainly are involved as well).

It'll be great to see what you find. Too bad one of your neighbors doesn't have one of Soakeman's type spas so you could test that as well for comparative purposes.

That Maxxus is a big spa with alot of big power which is big pumps. I think your right in the ball park. In Florida it would be 30-40 bucks a month for a huge powerfull tub.

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

2nd Electric Bill Arrived for Month of December

Hot Tub is Sundance Maxxus

* Location west of Boston-MA, rather cold climate is a good "worst case"

* Average temp was 39.7F for Nov, 27.8F for Dec (So December was about 30% colder than November)

* Temperature setting of hot tub is 104F

* 60 AMP hookup

* Always Standard Mode (uses most energy)

* Soak 3 to 4 times per week

* Local electric rate is 9.7 cents per KWHr

* Monthly electricity use: 550 KWHr in Nov, 757 KWHr in Dec

* Monthly electricity cost: $53 in Nov, $73 in Dec

* Increase of 38% in December bill attributed to 30% decrease of average monthly temperature

So am I crying?... no way! I love the hot tub and wouldn't let it go even if the cost was $100 per month. I agree the only true way to know the EXACT cost of hot tub energy cost is through submetering. In fact, you can pick up 100 amp submeters on Ebay for about $90, piece o' cake to hook up. However I have not changed one electrical item in my entire house for the last 15 months except the addition of my hot tub in October and so the use of last years KWHr provides me with a reasonable estimate of cost.

Just for fun, I will order a submeter and collect data for the forum! As a scientist, I hypothesize there is a strong correlation between average daily temperature and average daily KWHrs. Also willing to bet the hot tub will use between $50 and $70 for months Jan and Feb so long as the monthly average temperature for those months doesn't go below 27F.

Anyway, I'll follow up with Jan and Feb data as well as submeter data once I have something to share.

Thanks for the clear information. My additional KWhr usage for December was 555 but the average temperature in the San Francisco Bay area is much warmer than 27 degrees, probably more like 50 degrees. Also, my brother-in-laws D1 tub in the same city as mine only used 270 KWhr more in December than before he got the hot tub. The service man read my amps and the tub is pulling normally so I wonder if it is the insulation. One question, although I have the temperature set for 102 degrees, it heats to that and then immediately (within a half hour) drops down to 101 where it stays until it drops below there before it heats up. Does your temperature read what you set it at or usually a degree below?

[Roger]

Thanks for the clear information. My additional KWhr usage for December was 555 but the average temperature in the San Francisco Bay area is much warmer than 27 degrees, probably more like 50 degrees. Also, my brother-in-laws D1 tub in the same city as mine only used 270 KWhr more in December than before he got the hot tub. The service man read my amps and the tub is pulling normally so I wonder if it is the insulation. One question, although I have the temperature set for 102 degrees, it heats to that and then immediately (within a half hour) drops down to 101 where it stays until it drops below there before it heats up. Does your temperature read what you set it at or usually a degree below?

Sometimes there is more than a degree variance if you put in a seperate floating thermometor you may find there are 2-3 degrees difference.

[Chas]

Again a completely false statement that is uncalled for. Arctic Spas are just as energy efficient if not more energy efficient that other spas, including full foam spas.

I know you joined us recently, and I want to help you with something which took me a while to learn myself:

As a salesperson for a particular brand, it tends to go better if you sort of ease into the info you are offering, and consider that the things you hold true and non-negotiable can sometimes be proven to be just well-meaning opinions which have valid opposing opinions.

For example - Artic spas install a thick layer of foam, which is easily as thick as 6" is some places. The fact that they put that insulation on the inside of the cabinet, not on the back of the shell, is what sets them apart. But to most folks who know about insulaion, R values and the like, 4" is the fringe of the break-even or 'point of diminishing returns.' Which means that one would be safe in calling an Arctic spa a 'full foam' spa because it really does have a very thick layer of insulating foam, which provides just about the same R value as a product made by a manufacturer who calls their tubs 'full foam.' Putting more than 4" of foam is generally done to help sell the tubs, or help support them, or make them stronger in shipping, or all of the above, but it doesn't really add significantly to the heat-retaining ability of a tub. And it is not needed in spas which sell on their own merits as Arctic does, or tubs with fiberglass backing on the shell, ship on pallets, or whatever.

Here, lets look at some photos:

Arctic Heatlock System

This is vastly different that most ThermalPaine systems which put a very small layer of foam on the inside of the cabinet - may or may not add foam to the floor, and which do not do anything to keep out drafts and heat loss - especially as the tub ages.

Those spas tend to count on the air in the airspace getting hot from equipment and that hot air forms a layer of insulation of it's own. However, that blows away if the cabinet opens up when it ages, or if the bottom is not well sealed there can be gaps between the tub and the slab or deck which allow a breeze to remove this hot air insulation layer.

I think you'll find that these topics have been absolutely ground to dust on this forum - and have been done so by some very well-educated folks who brought a lot more than opinions to the discussion.

I say all this to welcome you to the fray, and give you some insight which I wish I had been able to acquire as easily as you just did.

[Tom]

and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...

Again a completely false statement that is uncalled for.

I took it as a joke, offered in the form of satire, and a funny one at that.

Thank you for clarifying that Arctic is not really "thermopane"; I think people largely realize that, but still lump us with TP for convenience. Our ultimate goal, of course, is to have it recognized that there are three types of insulation method: full foam, thermopane, and Arctic-style perimeter insulation.

[Roger]

and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...

Again a completely false statement that is uncalled for.

I took it as a joke, offered in the form of satire, and a funny one at that.

Thank you for clarifying that Arctic is not really "thermopane"; I think people largely realize that, but still lump us with TP for convenience. Our ultimate goal, of course, is to have it recognized that there are three types of insulation method: full foam, thermopane, and Arctic-style perimeter insulation.

Shall we get into the discussion regarding using pumps for heat is well, using pumps for heat and pumps draw electricity also and they only run for filtering 2-4 hours a day which leaves 20-22 hours in the day that they are not creating heat......ahhhhhh never mind...LOL Oh and how a heater heats about 300-400 times more effieciently that a pump motor, but a pump motor turns a pump a billion times better that a heater? hehehehehe