waterbear

double post, thread locked.

@Newton100 You are posting in a 10 year old thread. Please start a new thread with your question and you will recieve a much better chance of getting a reply.

Which Taylor test kit did you get? The K-2006 and K-2106 are the recommended ones since the FAS-DPD sanitizer test is far superor and easier to read to DPD based testing. As far as the TA test, it is a color change from green to red in the Taylor kits so if you are having trouble with it have someone else read it. pH and CH measurements are based on other color chagnes so you should not have problems. no, alkalinity is way too high and strips only measure total hardness, not calcium harness. Total hardness is a useless reading. Also, strips do not have the resolution to effectively balance water. The range is often too wide for even a "ballpark" guess as to the actual levels. Your hardness test and sanitizer test both bleached out because of high sanitizer and MPS. If you have the taylor K-2006 or K-2106m you would be able to get an accurate reading. IF you are using MPS (why? it's not normally needed!) then you need to also get the Taylor K-2941 or K02042 MPS interference remover add on kit for accurate readings. MPS will test as chlorine or bromine. Yes, if you want good pH stability. Read these to help you understand the effect of high TA on pH. The second one will explain what is going on and will also show you the ONLY way to lower TA and keep it low. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/

start a new thread with your question. It will have a much better chance of getting answered. As you said this is a 6 year old thread and basically dead.

I hose them off and then soak them in 1 cup of automatic dishwasher detergent powder (cheaper house brand is fine) to every 5 gallons of water in a container large enough to submerge the filter (I use a trash can) for an hour to overnight then hose off again. I also have a spare filter so I can swap out the dirty one and soak it and pop the clean one in so the spa is back in use. Same info applies to pool cartridge filters. Unicel has good info on cleaning filters on their website

Please post a new full set of test results done with your Taylor K-2006 so I can have a look at what's going on and let me know what chemicals you have added within 3 days of the test and how much. I think that it mught just be normal chlroine loss and rising pH from your high TA but lets get you soaking. It is, after all, a hot tub and not a chemistry set!

If I remember correctly your original test was done by your dealer and they use strips. Strips are not accurate and don't have the same resolution as your Taylor kit so the margain of error is much greater. . TA 50 - 70, pH around 7.6 or lower, pH will rise naturally due to outgassing of CO2 and stabilize around 7.7 - 7.8, don't lower it until it climbs to l8.0 and don't go below about 7.6 for the best pH stability. You could also just buy boric acid from an online supplier such as Amazon, DudaDiesel, Maxtite, The Chemistry Store, etc. Boric acid will have a slight pH lowering effect when added but the pH will quickly stabilize at the same levels as Gentle Spa. Also get some borate test strips. I have found that the LaMotte and the Industial Test Systems Poolcheck borate test strips easier to read than the strips from Hach, Taylor, and Aquachek. You will most likely need to order the strips from an online retailer. I get mine from Amazon. 1.5 Tablespoons of boric acid will raise borate by by 10 ppm in 100 gallons. You want to shoot for 50 ppm. You will lose borate by splashout so when the level drops to 30 ppm raise it back to 50. check the borate level monthly. I agree, keep it at 3 to 5 ppm. If you are doing that you really don't need the N2 as long as you watch your CYA levels and switch to bleach as soon as they hit about 30 ppm so you don't overstabilze with the dichlor, which adds 9 ppm CYA for ever 10 ppm FC added. inert fillers. Cal Hypo is very reactive and the stronger ones used commercially can spontaneously ignite and have been responsible for warehouse fires at one the manufacturing plants for cal hypo in the past. Cal hypo does not add CYA but does add 7 ppm CH for every 10 ppm FC added. You can use it but when your CH hits around 400 ppm switch to bleach. If you are lucky you will reach the 400 ppm at the same time you are due for your 3 month water change so it will be a non issue for you. (You ARE changing the water every 3 months, aren't you?) NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO This can create a yo yo effect with pH rising and falling. It's not how it's done! READ THIS!!!!!!: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ AND STUDY THIS!!!!!!!: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ They will explain the relationship between pH and TA and how to correctly adjust them!!!! Adding backing soda to increase TA should not cause This is why you want to do an acid demand test before adding acid to drop pH (or determining how much acid to add to drop pH to 7.0 before aerating when lowering TA.

Post a full set of test results ( total bromine, pH, total alkalinity, and calcium hardness) and how they were done (strips, liquid reagents, store testing (and whether they used liquid reagents, strips, or strips or discs read in a machine) and we will have a much better idea of what's going on. In the meantime read these. They might give you some insight into why you are having problems. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ and be sure to read this one. It explains the relationship between total alkalinity and pH and how to adjust them properly https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ It seems that you are just chemicals in the water and don't understand why pH rises in a tub. Also, am moving your post to a more appropriate section of the forum.

Depends. Are you using chlorine, bromine, silver/MPS (Nature 2 or other "mineral stick" , biguinide/peroxide (soft soak, BaquaSpa) or a different "sanitizer"? Post a full set of test results and also a list of chemicals that you have added and we can take it from there.

Be aware that a saltwater system is usually a chlorine system. The chlorine is generated by electrolysis of the salt. If sodium bromide is used instead of sodium chloride then it becomes a bromine system. Chlorine is not a sensitizer, bromine can be. However, the usual culprit for those with 'sensitive skin' is MPS or non chlorine shock so that should be avoided. As far as less work, you won't have to worry about daily dosing of sanitizer or weekly shocking but the chemistry is the same. The water still needs to be tested and balanced and pH control is a bit more of an issue. You still have to maintain your calcium hardness, total alkalinity, and cyanuric acid if you are using chlorine. Cyanuric acid is a chlorine stabilizer. It is not used with bromine.

How are you testing your water? Are your bromine granules pure sodium bromide or are they a mixture of dichlor and sodium bromide? Read this: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/

Don't use the water wheel. It's only applicable to Plaster pools, not acrylic shell spas. pH is fine, don't worry about lowering it until it hits 8.0 TA is high, you were perfect at 60 ppm. Because of the extra aeration in spas pH will rise faster if the TA is higher or the pH is brought low. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ CH is fine, you want it high enough to help prevent foaming (sift water will foam more readily that hard). Anywhere between 130 to 200 ppm is a good range. If you are going to use N2 with MPS then follow the N2 instructions. If you are going to use plain chlorine (dichlor/bleach) then dump the N2. end color is blue, not purple. that is an intermediate color. Keep adding drops until the last drop produces no further color change and then don't count that last drop. These videos from Taylor might help: https://www.taylortechnologies.com/tv/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd Most pool/spa stores don't have a lot of knowledge and much of what they know is wrong, Sadly it's common in the industry. Also, the main reason a pool/spa store will test your water for free is to sell you chemicals, many of which that you don't need. Their bottom line is selling chemicals, the more they sell the better their bottom line. Accurate testing is NOT what they want. Even those that use some type of colorimeter or strip reader will have the software set up in such a way as to maximize chemical sales. I used to work in the retail end of the industry and have seen this firsthand. Most pool/spa store employees have little or no training and what they do receive is often from product manufacturers, who also want to maximize product sales. I have even dealt with CPOs (Certified Pool Operators), who have to sturdy and take a test to get that certification so they can maintain pools and spas at commercial facilities such as hotels, water parks, community pools, etc.) that could not properly test a pool at a facility where I used to work. They were unable to read the comparator and were confusing the chlorine and bromine scales, which are different. There is another forum on the internet that I contribute to that calsl what has happened to you as being "pool stored". It's common which is why I recommend testing your own water with a good test kit and not strips.

yes

Trust your K-2006. How is the store testing? If they are using strips that would explain the discrepancy in test results. If you want to verify your test kit Taylor does sell standard solutions that you can test to determine if your testing method and/or reagents are good. Many men have problems differentiating shades of red. This is a main reason why the FAS-DPD chlorine test in the K-2006 is much better than the DPD test found in most other test kits (including Taylor's) and the vast majority of test strips. The FAS-DPD also will not bleach out and read low when the sanitizer is high, which could explain why the strips are reading about half of what the FAS-DPD test is showing. (BTW, dichlor is a form of stabilized chlorine, it will add 9 PPM of CYA for every 10 ppm chlorine added so once you have about 30 ppm CYA in the water you should switch to bleach (sodium hypochlorite), which will not raise CYA. pH often reads low on strips but no one ever talks about it. I've seen the same thing many times. Strips also don't have a resolution to provide useful results for many tests and pH is one of them. You can get into the tub as long as your FC is below 10 ppm. with 30 ppm CYA. The resolution on your Taylor kit is +/- 10 ppm with a 25 ml sample. Strips can't test for calcium hardness, only total hardness,which usually gives a higher number since it is a combination of calcium and magnesium hardness. This explains the different readings. The Taylor test is testing only calcium hardness. Also, if you look at the resolution of test strips the best ones will have a resolution of +/- 40 ppm while the majority have a resolution of +/- 100 ppm or worse! Do you mean non chlorine shock (MPS)? Be aware that it will test as combined chlorine, as will residual ozone in the water. It is usually not needed unless you have persistent combined chlorine over 1 ppm and running the tub with the cover off and exposed to sunlight for abut an hour will often take care of it, making the use of MPS unnecessary. You mention the N2 stick. Why are you using it if you are running your FC at normal levels. It's not doing anything for you at all. If you were using it wiith MPS only that's a different story since the combination of silver, hot water, and MPS IS a fast acting residual sanitizer (that still requires the use of chlorine for shocking). Taylor sell an add on for the K-2006 to remove the interference from MPS and ozone, btw. pH in spas will rise usually rise on it's own as CO2 gases off from the aeration from the jets. By my calculations your CH is right on the money, fill water starts at 100, CH increaser added to raise it about 25 ppm should put you right at 120-130 PPM.

You are in the right category. My expertise is water chemistry, not hardware but @RDspaguy and @CanadianSpaTech should be able to provide some insight.

Just to clarify, a Biodesign pool is not the same as a 'natural' pool. Biodesign pools are liner pools with a resin shell that have beach entries and are built to look like a pond. It is a construction technique that uses no concrete but can have a custom design like a concrete pool. It is not a 'natural pool, which is a pool that uses no chemicals but relies on an ecosystem of plants, anerorbic and aerobic bacteria, and gravel to 'filter' the water, much like a natural pond. The water is not sanitized and can contain harmful organisms such as Naegleria fowleri, also known as the 'brain eating amoeba'.

Is there a broken pin in the cable connector plug itself? Sometimes if a line is not used the pin in the sicket is broken off on purpose.

Chlorine tabs are trichlor and extremely acidic. They are not recommended for use in spas for this reason because of the small volume of water compared to pools which means pH is less stable than in a pool. They can and will cause ph to crash to dangerously low levels which can cause pump seals, o-rings, and other rubber and plastic parts to become damaged. The black junk you are seeing is probably from very low pH dissolving something in the workings of your spa. Trichlor goes in acidic and has an acidic reaction when it sanitizes. TA must be in the 100 to 150 ppm range when using it in a pool. On the other hand, liquid chlorine is pH neutral on use. (goes in alkaline and had an acidic reaction when it sanitizes). Also, continued use of trichlor WILL cause overstabilization, much like dichlor. Trichlor add 6 ppm Cyanuric acid (stabilizer) for every 10 ppm of chlorine added. Dchlor is even worse, adding 9 ppm Cyanuric acid for every 10 ppm chlorine. Please post a full set of test results (FC, CC or TC, pH, TA, CH, and CYA) and how they were obtained (strips, liquid reagent test kit, strip reader or colorimeter and whether they were home tests or dealer tests and if possible, the brand (Taylor Technologies, LaMotte, Hach, AquaChek, etc.) so we can get a better idea of what's going on. This tells us nothing about the condition of your water. Test result numbers do. For example, the chlorine level necessary for sanitation depends on the current cyanuric acid (stabilizer) level in the water.

Read these to understand why your pH is rising and how to stop it. You should not have to add alkalinity increaser (baking soda) weekly! Your alkalinity should be in the 50 to 70 ppm range. If you want to save some money IF you need alkalinity increaser in the future it's nothing more than baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, sodium hydrogen carbonate--different names for the same chemical (same stuff you can buy at the grocery store for a LOT less money). https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ As far as calcium hardness, you want it around 130 ppm or higher to help prevent foaming (very soft water will foam). If your calcium hardness is lower than this then you should add hardness increaser. If you calcium hardness is above about 400 ppm you need to keep close tabs on pH and make sure it does not rise above 8.0 to help prevent scale deposits in the tub. Ideally, keep the pH around 7.6 and the TA around 50-70 ppm for the best pH stability. Hot tubs will have a rising pH because of the aeration from the jets that cause CO2 go gas off. This loss of CO2 is the main cause of pH rise in hot tubs and spas and the higher the TA the faster the pH rise. Likewise, the lower the pH the faster the pH rise. The links I posted above explain why. Read them. The Frog@ease system uses a proprietary chlorine source they call SmartChlor that WILL test as total chlorine. This is normal for this system. The addition of dichlor is not recommeded by the manufacturer of this system and they also recommend using THEIR test strips becuse of their non standard chlorine source.

"House brand" bleaches from major grocery store chains or big box store such as Walmart are often cheaper than brand names and don't have all the additives for laundry enhancement (that might or might not help in whitening clothes).

You can use borax but it will raise the pH so you will also need to add acid with it which complicates the process. I used to use borax decahydrate from from the grocery store and muriatic acid but using boric acid is much easier since you don't really need to compensate for the pH as long as your starting pH is not below about 7.4. Only drawback it it's a bit more expensive than borax and acid but it's still WAY less expensive than the commercial products (which are basically a mixture of boric acid and borax pentahydrate to create a pH neutral product. The pH lowering effect from boric acid is negligible but the pH rise from straight borax, either pentahydrate or decahydrate is quite a bit. The only difference between the pentahydrate and decahydrate forms of borax is one had 5 water molecues attaches andt the other 10 so the pentahydrate needs less by weight to achieve the same level of borate in the water. The first commercial borate products such as Proteam Supreme and BIoguard Optimizer for pools and spas was just the pentadydrate form and required the addition of acid. Newer formulation (Supreme Plus, Optimizer Plus) are pH neutral because they contain both the pentahydrate form of borax and boric acid. If you still want to use borax let me know and I will calculate dosing.

which you neglected to say. In that case you are not doing 3 step bromine. You are using a silver/bromine system and I would recommend following the instructions for the Frog or stop using the mineral cartridge and use 3 step bromine (my suggestion). I am not a fan of mineral cartridges since the low sanitizer levels that are often recommended can lead to water problems. You have answered your own initial question. Your fill water has a high pH and, depending how much you are adding, will raise the pH. My suggestion is to lower the pH after adding fill water and keep your TA around 60 ppm and add 50 ppm borate to create a secondary boric acid/borate buffer system (get some LaMotte borate test strips or Industrial Test Systems Poolcheck Borate test strips for testing borate. Stay away from Hach, Taylor, and AquaCheck, their color changes are very difficult to read and very close together.) Don't lower your pH below 7.6 and don't worry about lowering it until it climbs above 8.0. Sweet spot for pH when using borate is 7.8 to 7.9. Borate is compatible with mineral cartridges. There are commercial borate products such as Proteam Gentle Spa, Phoenix Serena Spa Borate Plus, Proteam Supreme Plus (for pools but can be used in spas) , or Bioguard Optimizer Plus (for pools but can be used in spas) , or you can use granular boric acid from online retailers as Amazon, DudaDielel, or the Chemistry Store. You want to maintain a 30 t0 50 ppm range. It is lost by splash out so you will need to test and add more when you add new fill water. One advantage to using boric acid is that when you add more to compensate for the fill water it will slightly lower the pH,. You still might need to add some acid to get the pH in line. 4 oz. of boric acid per 100 gallons will get you to 50 ppm (3.8's oz by weight or 4.1 oz by volume if you want to get exact but it's not necessary, 4 oz either way is close enough. That's half a cup.) 1.5 tablespoons per 100 gallons will raise the borate level approx. 10 ppm for when you need to bump it up after refilling the splash out. If you are losing water from evaporation you should not need to add more since it's not lost by evaporation. As I said early, you want to maintain the borate level between 30-50 ppm so you don't need to add more until it drops to 30 ppm then add enough to bring it back to around 50 ppm. If you decide to use a commercial borate product for pool or spas follow the directions.

This uses FAS-DPD which is the preferred method of testing sanitizer and not subject to bleachout. I would look to your fill water at the culprit.

Yes but I would not r recommend it. You could use both MPS and chlorine at the same time if you wanted to. MPS is a known sensitizer and will add sulfate to your water. it is also more expensive. IMHO, the only reasons to use MPS is with a chlorine tub or indoor pool that has persistent CC over 1 ppm or with a sliver nitrate cartridge such as Nature2 in a hot tub (silver ions and MPS become an EPA sanitizer in hot water). There is no known advantage to using MPS to activate bromine.

which kit? test it. it might be the culprit. This can caused the pH to rise more rapidly. When you add fill water do you add any other chemicals to the tub or shock the the tub? If you are testing bromine with DPD (comparator with shades of red) and not FAS-DPD (drop counting testing with color change from red to colorless) or OTO (comparator with shades of yellow) it is possible that your test is bleaching out because of high sanitizer and reading much lower than it actually is. High sanitizer will cause pH to read high when it's actually low because the high sanitizer converts the phenol red pH indicator into bromophenol red (which has the same color changes but for a much lower pH range(. This is why I asked which Taylor kit you are using since they sell kits with all 3 methods of testing sanitizer.