arnspa

Brackneyc, I see that none of the replies above address your concern about electric usage. We have a large Masterspa, 1300 gals with a timer that turns things off for many hours of the day.* When it's off for 10 hrs it loses only one or two degrees and jumps back up within an hour of switching on. Almost everyone believes you should cycle your furnace to go down or a/c to go off when you're not home or in bed at night. I gather that you've not yet determined how much this tub is going to cost for electric. For us it was a big item and the timer saves us a lot.* A night timer might save you money as well. Note that because we have so much water with ozonator the hours the spa is not circulating hasn't made problems for the chems and clarity. This might be different for a smaller spa used more frequently. Also, we have ours at 100 - 101, more is too hot for me, though my wife likes the warmer. How wedded are you to 103? (nice pun, yes?) For a twice daily dip? Two degrees less will save you much on your furnace, may work in the tub as well. I would suggest a timer to control this rather than worrying about 'turning it down' nightly. *Note: With 30 solar panels for electric we are on a time of use metering system with Pacific Gas & Electric. In Summer we sell them juice for 30 cents a kwh during the day, then buy it back at night for 10 cents. So we cut off during the day, but you might cut off at night if you have constant billing.

zzmac, Two comments. Note that you want a level base for your spa so the water will be level in the spa. As for grounding to rebar or mesh in the pad, this is always smart. Even if people aren't standing on it this gives better protection, supplementing* the ground back at your main electric box and not requiring that a short travel that distance to effective ground. (all that rebar or mesh) *NOTE WELL, a ground at the spa is no substitute for running neutral and grounding wires back to the main box. A ground at your spa can supplement but not substitute. Also, our local codes call for 6 gauge ground wires to earth. Disclosure: I'm not an electrician.

I think it is something like what you suggest. For the tub experience she likes 102 deg (I would prefer 99). But to swim this is too warm. Yet the insulation and cover is so good that even overnight and turned off, it loses only 1 or 2 degrees. Still, the other problem may be just that she works too much. As a doctor who's dealing with serious medical issues, teaching others, and trying to direct medical policy, she works from 7:30 to 6:30 most days, and 6-12 hrs many wknds. When she comes home bone tired after looking over an intern's shoulder - trying to direct surgery - the hot temp is great. But the next morning it's too hot for a swim (she's up at 5:30). When we first bought the spa (may I say that GWB cut our taxes to make that easy), it was the swimming feature she wanted. But the giant hot tub took over, determining how we would set the temp. All this suggests that WE need a talk on how we want to use the thing. I am quite happy with cooler temps. Does she value more the big burn or swimming? Instead of keeping the swim spa at 100+, and then trying to lower it when she wants to swim, why not do the opposite? Keep it at warm but swimmable temp, then raise it for occasions we want the burn. Also, this may save the electric. NOTE: With our solar system, for the house and 1300 gallon swim spa, we paid just over $100 electric for the past YEAR. (We had a big March though I don't know why.) Comments welcome.

I recall mention here of a product to add just before draining to help remove sediment build up in the lines. (But my search couldn't find it) Any tips on this? Product names? We have a 1300 gal Master Spa H2X, 3 yrs old, drained twice yearly. Thanks!

I don't know of such reviews, but wish to mention that the Momentum model is over 19 ft outside length. I'm 5'11" and can easily swim in our 12 ft H2X. btw: I've read that Michael Phelps is 6'4". At 6'1" you should have no trouble.

Sorry to be so long away from this topic. Ours is a solar electric system for our whole house (not just the tub). It's a 30 panel, 5 kWh system. We're on the Peninsula, about 30 miles south of San Francisco, where it is very temperate = seldom freezing in winter and we don't have or need a/c in summer. Even so our usage with the swimspa is over 1000 kWh per month. But with the solar system we pay PG&E zero/nada. It cost about 20 thousand 2 yrs ago, and we have a contract with SunRun that guarantees output for 18 years. So we estimate our long term costs at $1000 per yr, and have no worries about PG&E rate increases. We bought our system outright, but pay as you go plans are also available. Note: We are on Time of Use billing. During the day we sell electric to PG&E (at 30 cents kWh during the summer) and buy it back at night (at 9 cents). With a timer we heat the tub only at the Off Peak hours.

Over 2 years ago we bought the smallest Master SwimSpa, H2X Crosstrainer2 (1300 gals). We have enjoyed it very much. I was recently delighted to see a TV ad featuring that Olympic guy in a Master Spa. But I was reminded how little my wife has been swimming in the swimspa, after the first year. Ours was a big ticket item (About 25K with pad and electric). The one on TV looks even larger. Maybe we have all we need. (It is fun to have as many as 12 in the tub) Still I'd like to see this newer one. Other sizes are up to 2500 gals. We have a 5kWh solar system that reduces our current electric costs to zero. (Menlo Park, Calif) Would my wife swim more with this newer tub? Anyone with expereince with these larger newer spas?

PEASE let me quote OP Newbie: "I'm not sure what a disconnect is..." When Newbie says something like this, the appropriate advice is : Get someone who does. (Probably your local spa-savvy electrician) All that said, I appreciate the discussion above for those of us who may be a little more spa-savvy.

DD, A 60 amp breaker? You have a contactor? That sounds like a 240 volt system? Then you plugged it into 110 volt? YES, we are all scratching our heads. We need a lot more info to offer any sug's. (What is this tub and voltage. How old?) My Right Now Sug: Get back the electrician who hooked this up -- or a reasonable facsimile.

I'm much interested in this question. My friend is has a 'cabin' in Truckee, Ca. The kids (the 20's) are talking hot tub. Is a remote possible that would work by telephone, or? So he could keep it above freezing when away, and start heating when he wanted to go there (he's 3 -4 hrs away, but would have at least 24 hrs to heat it up). We are thinking not a swimspa, but something for 4-5 peeps.

Do you folks have pubic hair? My guess is that a suit reduces the amount of pubic hair your filters will collect. More, Mikey and n-o-b seem to be just assuming that any dirt and oil on your body will fully migrate thru the suit into the water. May we see the studies which affirm that? They don't tell us that they wash their bottoms with a bidet and use the shower before getting in the tub. SO, I would guess that any dingleberries, sweat, hair, oils and dirt that their suits MIGHT collect or hold will in fact go into the water and their filters. My guess is that if you have 'hash marks' in your underwear you can't get those out by wearing them into your tub for 10 - 30 minutes. Those marks were there because they came from your bottom. If you didn't shower well before putting on your suit, your suit may prevent some of it getting from your bottom into the pool. Without your suit it will all go there. However much folks enjoy getting nude in the tub, I say they go to far in telling us it's healthier. Unless maybe they are shaven and shower well before entering.

Ancillary questions: Do you shower before tubbing? Do you use a bidet or one of those Japanese toilet seats with the butt spray? I was surprised how much my wife wanted to go w/o suits when just the two of us. It does promote romance, etc. But I'm still wary. My 80some year old neighbor came by one day as I was getting out to tell me there was a dead cat in my driveway. My tub suit is a Speedo, I have 3 of them, much freer and quicker draining than one of those to the knees suit with pockets, etc. If your own suit is a baggy thing you might switch to a Speedo before you ditch it all. My question: The more that you and guests are without suits, the more frequently you should clean filters?

belome, First, 106 degrees? My spa has a Warning label not to exceed 104 degrees. Excessive heat can be dangerous. 100 suits me though my wife likes 102. De gustibus...? But you should be aware that 106 is above recommended levels. To your query: Please Note that it has been well established that turning down your house thermostat at night or if you are away during the day will save money (and energy). Isn't this exactly the situation for a spa?

Below are pics of my recent efforts to replace headrests/pillows in our MasterSpa H2X. In just 2 years one of the headrests was showing very ugly. Calling MasterSpa Central sent me to an embarrassing exchange with a 'local dealer'. I searched on-line and found pillows from $98 each down to $17 each. ($40 for 2 with postage). They were easily replaced, just pull out tabs, push in. It was my first guess that one needed to pull off the siding to replace the headrests. Not so. Happy that I didn't have to waste time and pay a dealer to get to this. YES, I know some other dealers are stellar. This one is not. Moral: Maybe you can find it on-line, do it yourself, and save a couple hundred..

Please forgive me Dr Spa, but this is pure Alarmism. I have described above a situation where using a secondary ground rod to eliminate a Neutral return or a Ground return to the main panel is NEC prohibited and I explained why. You tell us about little fishes? The problem there was not a second grounding rod. Indeed, by that reasoning it seems like we shouldn't have ANY grounding elements at all (if 'electrified' earth can get us from 2 miles away). IFF we have a short that causes a second ground rod to 'electrify' the earth, what would happen if you did not have the second ground rod? Given that you had proper returns for Neutral and Ground to the main panel, any short that would cause the second rod to 'electrify' the earth would also cause the primary earth ground to 'electrify' the earth. More, MANY houses already have a second grounding element. My house has a ground to the metal water supply (NEC required) and to the metal gas supply (Local code required at the water heater). The primary grounding element is the rod at the main panel. That's three ground elements plus the one I have at my spa panel (50 feet from the main panel). On your reasoning it looks like I should, for safety sake and to save my little fishes, disconnect ALL of these. Notice that if I had a horse barn or other outbuilding with livestock, NEC requires a second grounding rod/element at the subpanel in that building. Or if I put a lot of shop tools in my garage. Indeed a ground to the rebar may be required in a swimming pool. May I please say again, as affirmed by licensed electrician above, a grounding rod at the spa/tub subpanel is not NEC required but may be prudent. (I'm reminded that laws protecting animals were adopted long before laws protecting children.) We should note in this confab that the NEC prescribes a test for effective ground: 25 ohms. That is, the conductivity from your main panel ground rod to earth must be less than 25 ohms. IF it is not, Code requires addition of more effective ground. That is, Code can require addition of a second grounding rod. So, THE way to determine whether you need or do not need a second grounding rod (or a third), is to do a test (as described in the Code). You will need to have several tests over the course of a year, as the earth humidity and temperature changes. (Where I live there is drought, zero rain, May to November, then lots of rain. My friend in Cincinnati was told she should water her foundation this summer to avoid cracks) After a great expense and trouble for testing it may be determined that you do or do not need a secondary grounding element. In some locales, electricians use two grounding rods without question and without testing. Testing is expensive and can take a year. Rods are cheap. To return to OP's latest question: Because the subpanel is so close to the main panel I would think a separate ground for the subpanel not needed. BUT because rods are so cheap, unless the ground is moist year round, I would be tempted to add a second rod tied to the MAIN grounding rod (not at the subpanel). Or he could do testing to determine he didn't need this. My reason for saying this is that we should recognize the inherent danger of electricity and water. NEC thinking on this has evolved. We now need GFCIs in baths, outside, garage. We can't be too careful inthe tub. Again, Let's all be friends. You tell me my errors and I will tell you yours.

You can't read it in the photo, and I didn't bother to check it at the store. I just bought the "Pool Thermometer" and brought it home. It goes down to 20 Below Zero Fahrenheit! Yes, a pool thermometer that will register 52 degrees below freezing! Must be a name for this kind of product. Caveat emptor?

My suggestions: 1) Give a title to your post that lets folks know what you're talking about. "Why" is a question for a Philosophy Exam. 2) Give some info: What sort/size of tub are you talking? When you say it runs off a hot water tank you mean? --Baffled, but I can see why you have no other responses yet.

Dr Spa, What are you thinking? While I much admire all the work that you and other moderators put into forums such as this, I don't at all understand your thinking here. I have before me a copy of McPartland's NEC Handbook. I find nothing that would rule against my suggestion above that there be a grounding rod at the subpanel. Indeed, I find language that suggests that a ground rod at a subpanel is permissible but not required. I readily acknowledge that I am not an electrician. I'm a philosopher. But I can read. (And I've found that some electricians are better at that than others) I do find that there IS a situation in which a grounding rod at a subpanel would be dangerous*. As I said above one should NOT try to use a grounding rod at a subpanel as a substitute for a Neutral (White) wire or Grounding (Green) wire return to the Main Panel. But given those two wires are in place, the NEC definitely permits, and in some cases requires an additional grounding rod at a subpanel. (In a garage, for example, a grounding rod is permitted but not required if you have a single circuit to a subpanel. With more circuits it may be required.) But like any true philosopher I know that anyone who shows me my mistake is my friend. So, in friendship, Dr Spa (or others), I ask you to say more of what you're thinking -- or better, send us to the NEC that forbids (YOU DID USE CAPS) a grounding rod at a subpanel where the Neutral and Grounding wires are intact, returned to the Main Panel. Else, rather than I acknowledge you as my friend you may wish to acknowledge me as yours. DISCLAIMER: DrSpa and I have had a previous exchange on this issue. Also, I recently criticized DrSpa for what I called blatant commercial promotion here. I hope DrSpa bears no grudges. Better that we get correct advice on additional ground rods than than we win an argument. Note: When I asked my California Licensed Electrician to add a grounding rod at the subpanel (50 feet from the main panel), he said OK but it's not required. He also said you can't have too much ground when you get lightning or giant surge from the main line. * That dangerous situation: Suppose you have a Hot wire short to a conductor in your tub (VERY unlikely) or to your subpanel (could happen). IF/IF you do not have a true Neutral (White wire) and Ground (Green wire) connected to the Main Panel to trip the circuit breaker, then a grounding rod (depending on soil humidity and distance) COULD act to send the electric wave through the earth/dirt to the grounding rod at your Main Panel. This could travel up to the Grounding bar in the Main panel where your Neutral wires connect. If efficient enough this would kick off the circuit breaker, BUT because, as Dr Spa says, Dirt is not a very good conductor, it may not kick off, but just create a hot circuit waiting for anyone to touch a conductive surface. So, when you or loved one touches the subpanel box or conduit, POW! But as I said in my post above, a grounding rod must NOT be used as a way to reduce wires back to the main panel.

Please let me add a pic of my own home built steps for our MasterSpa H2X. The tub is 50 inches tall and the only available steps looked like you were approaching the Supreme Court Building, and had no handrails (which I thought useful for kids and grandparents). These are 24 inches wide, 72 inches tall with lots of hooks for towels and robes (on the side you see plus the back you don't see). We've used them two years. I though I might need to tie them to the spa side but they are perfectly stable as they sit.

Walker, IF you connect the grounding wire (Green) and the Neutral wire (White) to a common bar in the subpanel, you turn the Green wire into a parallel Neutral return. And so any short between the Hot wires (Black/Red) and the Neutral wire (White) will turn the Green wire into a hot wire because you tied the White and Green together in the subpanel. Do NOT connect the Green and White wires together in the subpanel in any fashion. (And certainly do not try to reduce the number of wires in your conduit by tying the Green to the White or vice versa in the subpanel) You are right to think that once the two wires join at the common ground in the main panel it is all machs nichts, but on the way to the main panel (at the tub, in the subpanel, and in the conduit) you want these lines to be separate, not joined. While you are making this installation, I suggest you consider adding a new additional grounding rod at the subpanel. This is not required by code but can be a good idea. NOT as a substitute for running a ground wire back to the main panel, but as additional grounding capability. And again, do NOT tie your neutral (White) to this. Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, I'm a philosopher.

So much advice, so little data. How many pounds over what footage are we talking here? A smaller Master tub with 4 people might be 2 tons, a small Master swimspa with six people might be 7 tons. In any case reinforced concrete (wire or rods depending on thickness) over a well compacted gravel base is very smart. Some houses are sitting on a shale shelf where water doesn't drain and you can almost put your tub on the grass. But many houses have uneven fill that cannot be trusted. For smaller jobs, any ambitious yardman can do this, as our UK friend attests. Hey, DIY can do it. For bigger jobs, any concrete job, get someone who knows how to level and finish a pad. Once you have in mind what size tub you want, I suggest you get bids from people who do this kind of work. They can tell you where to go.

DrSpa, Thank you for the straight line. I feel about lint just as I and most others feel about blatant commercial self promotion on a site such as this. Lint, unfortunately is something we can't do much about (except to insist that everyone using the dryer clean the lint filter). As a moderator here I would think that part of the job would be to help filter out lint, I mean blatant commercial self promotion. I've checked your website. Indeed, it looks like you produce high quality covers and tubs. But it's just ugly for you to be conducting business on a public forum you moderate. You can do this with a private message, etc. More, I find your comments to this DIY guy to be not very supportive. Why not give him or others tips on making a better cover? They could check your site for ideas. BTW: please know that I and others very much value the time and effort that folks like you give to these forums.

I am troubled by the commercial self promotion here. I just now received this; We purchased a cover from you in September 2002. Any chance you have the specifications on file and I can just re-order? Ken D----- Denison, TX How long do think an average spa lasts? How about only needing the last 2 covers for half of double?

Harvey, To say more about using an Intermatic timer to control the tub. We have a separate 110 volt line at the site/panel. It controls the separate Schneider 240 volt conductor. The conductor has terminals for more than one device. So, you may be able to have a 110 timer controlling a 240 conductor that would switch both lines to the tub. NOTE: I suggest you get some professional electrical advice on this. I would ask some local electricians for bids on this and ask/discover what's the best way to go. Find some that do this sort of work. I was lucky to find one that even gave me tips on where to find cheaper filters. --ArnSpa

Harvey, YES, we do have the same PG&E rate sheet -- Though I had not seen this new one! I see my current rate for Summer is 30/15/9 cents per kWh, vice the 29/14/8 it was last year. That is, at our house we use only a fraction of the Baseline and pay at the lowest rate. But indeed I see that one could even be at a 58 cent kWh rate for Summer peak, depending on amount of usage/tier. I do hope you are mistaken in estimating your Baseline tier and that it will be lower than you guess. (How many teenagers do you have?) Your questions about freeze suggest to me you may not be close to us in Menlo Park, CA. We had down to 28 dF last winter, hurt the jade plants a little, but we have no worries for the spa. It's set for 100 dF and loses only little even being off for 12 hours. Even if we turned it off for 2 weeks in the winter I'm sure we wouldn't have freeze worries. 1300 gals is a lot of heat and well insulated. Also, the house has gas furnace, water heater, and drier. So our electric usage is much less than folks who are all-elec. We even have a timer on the freezer in the basement. The upside of Net Metering is that when the 30 cents kWh rate is in effect for us is exactly when we are sending solar electric back to PG&E. That is, we are not paying them at all, but they have to credit us at 30 cents for what we're giving them. Thus, we don't need zero usage to have a zero bill. We send them our solar surplus at 30 cents, and buy it back at night for 9 cents. (I'm sure you've heard all this, Harvey. We need to tell others) --ArnSpa [For our friends elsewhere: Pacific Gas and Electric has a 'voluntary' Time of Use billing plan, allowing users cheaper rates at night,and higher rates during peak AC days/hours. Good for those who can limit their use during the day, or even, as with solar, to earn big credits at peak time.]