How Long Will My Spa Remain Safe Using Only An Ionizer And No Chemicals?

[Machaon]

I use a copper/silver ionizer to keep my pool safe from bacteria or any other harmful organisms. It has now been six days since I filled the SPA with water. I use only the ionizer. I use absolutely no chemicals and I don't plan to use any chemicals. The water is pristine, no slime and no clouding.

So far so good. It has only been six days. I have read that a spa, using only an ionizer, must be shocked once a week, which means using harsh chemicals in my spa, which I refuse to do. If I have to, once a week, I will dump the water, clean the spa, and then refill the spa, rather than use chemicals. But, I would rather not have to dump and refill that often.

Surely there are many others who use spa/pool ionizers. What has been your experience? How often do you have to either shock your spa, or dump and refill?

[Peter Smit]

I use a copper/silver ionizer to keep my pool safe from bacteria or any other harmful organisms. It has now been six days since I filled the SPA with water. I use only the ionizer. I use absolutely no chemicals and I don't plan to use any chemicals. The water is pristine, no slime and no clouding.

So far so good. It has only been six days. I have read that a spa, using only an ionizer, must be shocked once a week, which means using harsh chemicals in my spa, which I refuse to do. If I have to, once a week, I will dump the water, clean the spa, and then refill the spa, rather than use chemicals. But, I would rather not have to dump and refill that often.

Surely there are many others who use spa/pool ionizers. What has been your experience? How often do you have to either shock your spa, or dump and refill?

I am VERY new to this!!!, but logically you can run it for a long time as long as nobody goes into your spa .....

The question will be how much bacteria the users will add ......

I guess you can use it the longest time when all user have a thorough shower (and scrub) just before using the SPA (shower next to it might be a good idea).And I guess a toilet... because the waterquality will go down quickly when somebody empties its bladder....

So a next question will be how well you can control these variables.. are you having guests (and/or children) or is it just you using it?

So the question is how much bacteria your ioniser can handle and if it kills ALL bacteria....?

I guess the only way to be sure would be to test the water (in a laboratory) for bacteria.

Maybe there are other options, like a chemical that completely evaporates.... or Baqua spa or adding hydrogen peroxide after using some chorine???

Also make sure you supershock your tubb just before emptying to make sure all the piping is clean....

[chem geek]

If this ionizer just adds metal ions to the water and you don't have an ozonator, then in addition to the bacteria issues of person-to-person transmission (metal ions don't kill bacteria quickly -- they just inhibit runaway bacterial growth and they don't inactivate viruses very quickly either) the main issue is that your ammonia and urea from your sweat will not get oxidized until you shock the water. So you'll be soaking in larger and larger amounts of ammonia and urea (and lotions or body oils, etc.) until you shock the spa. You need to shock with a LOT of chlorine or MPS at that point. The rough rule of thumb is that it will take around 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons for every person-hour of soaking. In 350 gallons, that's roughly 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% unscented bleach or 7-1/4 teaspoons of MPS non-chlorine shock.

By not regularly using a sanitizer, you are taking a greater risk (though much better than not having an ionizer at all). See the posts on this forum for more info on hot tub itch/rash/lung, Legionnaire's disease, and MRSA.

Richard

[Stevie]

In all my years in this industry, I have never heard of someone willing to drain and refill weekly instead of operating a safe spa with minimal sanitizer.

Your choice and by the sounds of your intial post, no one here is going to change your mind about. I'm just curious why even question it in your post if you have already made up your mind?

Knowing what I know about watercare and MORE importantly, about the bacteria and contaminants we take into the spa, I would stick to the "drain and fill" weekly if you choose not to properly sanitize.

A couple of good rashes and maybe exposure to Pseudomonas aeroginosa, Staphylococcus, e-coli, Acinetobacter anitratus and bacillus may change your mind in future...

[ChicagoMike]

I can't imagine using no sanitizer, but if you are willing, keep a journal and let us know the results

[Machaon]

I am VERY new to this!!!, but logically you can run it for a long time as long as nobody goes into your spa .....

Why didn't I think of that?

... are you having guests (and/or children) or is it just you using it?

It's just me and my wife and, potentially some bacteria and other organisms to keep us company.

So the question is how much bacteria your ioniser can handle and if it kills ALL bacteria....?

I guess the only way to be sure would be to test the water (in a laboratory) for bacteria.

I am using the Guinea Pig method of testing. Yesterday, I didn't take a shower after using the spa. Today, I did. So far, so good.

Maybe there are other options, like a chemical that completely evaporates.... or Baqua spa or adding hydrogen peroxide after using some chorine???

Also make sure you supershock your tubb just before emptying to make sure all the piping is clean....

I can't use chemicals in the spa. I am really hoping that I can get two weeks out of the spa before I have to dump and refill.

Thanks for your input!

[Machaon]

If this ionizer just adds metal ions to the water and you don't have an ozonator, ...

Hmmmm!? You just reminded me that there is a hose coming out of the spa that is supposed to attach to an ozonator. I thought that the Ionizer took the place of the ozonator. Thanks for the idea. I will look into "ozonators", what they are and what they do. I thought that, maybe, the Ionizer was the answer to all my prayers.

By not regularly using a sanitizer, you are taking a greater risk (though much better than not having an ionizer at all). See the posts on this forum for more info on hot tub itch/rash/lung, Legionnaire's disease, and MRSA.

Richard

I already had a bad run-in with some nasty bacteria. I bought some magic-spa type of stuff via the Internet. It was supposed to keep the water totally safe. It didn't. I got nasty, painful blotches on my arms and back, where-ever my body touched the surface of the water and spa wall. It took a round of antibiotics to get rid of it.

I don't want to go through that again. That's why I'm trying to get some information from others who have also used an Ionizer, especially if they found a way of doing it WITHOUT using any chemicals.

Thanks for your feedback and your warnings/cautions. Perhaps because it is just my wife and I who are using the spa, we can keep nasty organisms from entering the water?

Thanks!

[Machaon]

In all my years in this industry, I have never heard of someone willing to drain and refill weekly instead of operating a safe spa with minimal sanitizer.

After today, you can't make that statement again!

Your choice and by the sounds of your intial post, no one here is going to change your mind about. I'm just curious why even question it in your post if you have already made up your mind?

I am looking for feedback from others who might have successfully avoided chemicals in their spa or pool, by using an Ionizer.

Knowing what I know about watercare and MORE importantly, about the bacteria and contaminants we take into the spa, I would stick to the "drain and fill" weekly if you choose not to properly sanitize.

Thanks for "suggesting" that a weekly drain and fill might work. I'm hoping that it will be safe to use for two weeks. Today is day 6. I used the spa today for about an hour. The water is clear and looks great. I am getting a little more foaming at the surface during the running of the jets. The foaming disappears within about an hour after the jets are turned off, leaving clear, great looking water.

Does that increased foaming indicate bacteria, or other nasty organisms, or is it just a reaction to my body oils and dead skin?

A couple of good rashes and maybe exposure to Pseudomonas aeroginosa, Staphylococcus, e-coli, Acinetobacter anitratus and bacillus may change your mind in future...

I have no choice. It's either use the spa without chemicals, or not be able to use it recreationally.

Thanks for your feedback. I am here to learn, and hopefully the feedback will help me to remain chemical free.

[Machaon]

I can't imagine using no sanitizer, but if you are willing, keep a journal and let us know the results

I will update this thread if, and when, I reach positive milestones, but will also update if things don't go too well. Every time I get an itch, I jump a little, fearing another stupid skin infection. So far, so good. It's a small spa, less than 200 gallons, so a weekly, or biweekly, dump and refill is definitely a reasonable option.

Regards...... have a nice weekend!

[Roger]

I use a copper/silver ionizer to keep my pool safe from bacteria or any other harmful organisms. It has now been six days since I filled the SPA with water. I use only the ionizer. I use absolutely no chemicals and I don't plan to use any chemicals. The water is pristine, no slime and no clouding.

So far so good. It has only been six days. I have read that a spa, using only an ionizer, must be shocked once a week, which means using harsh chemicals in my spa, which I refuse to do. If I have to, once a week, I will dump the water, clean the spa, and then refill the spa, rather than use chemicals. But, I would rather not have to dump and refill that often.

Surely there are many others who use spa/pool ionizers. What has been your experience? How often do you have to either shock your spa, or dump and refill?

Do you have a well or is it city water? Because a small amount of chlorine after use and your next soak will have zero or close to the same amount of chlorine as in your drinking water.

I guess I would like to know what "harsh" chemical you are talking about?? The preservatives in your food are probably harsher than the residual chlorine. Or the fumes from your car. Or the pesticide residue on your fruits and veggies.

[Deus66]

Well on a lighter note, leave it to "Roger" to completely ruin someones day........lol... Joke, I beleive you are correct about the food, water, etc.....

I personally used the Copper / Silver ion methods, and it was very successful until I got a painful (although) superficial Pseudomonas skin infection. No antibiotics required, it went away completely in about 2 weeks. That was just enough time to drain / clean / refill / and then keep it sanitized properly with dichlor.....I would throw that crap (Copper / Silver ion's) in the trash and order Bromine or Chlorine (dichlor) and follow the instructions on those chemicals. They diminish rapidly and are not harmful to the environment once depleted.

One more thing, I know for a fact that those systems say to shock with MPS after each use, and with dichlor weekly (probably every 3 days though). The ion's will not kill the bacteria rapidly enough to keep that "Petri Dish" you soak in sanitized for very long at all. As someone who studies microbiology I know how difficult it is to get a sufficient exposure to Pseudomonas in order to produce an infection. What I didn't realize was my "clean smelling, crystal clear water", had more than enough of those little water Nazi's growing in it to infect me.

Have you thought about how you'll kill those water Nazi's (bacteria) growing inside your pumps, heater, hoses, and plumbing by just draining and refilling. You'll have to get some shock into those areas to keep it clean, or draining and refilling will do you no good!

Bacteria that can be found in water are some of the worst you can ever be exposed to. If they can live in water, they can live in your body! You should google "brain eating amoeba" and see how many infections of this deadly disease occur each year in the U.S. Although mostly from pond / lake water, spa's and pool's with insufficient chlorination have been linked to deaths..... that is an extereme and rare example, but lots of infections and disease occur regulalry from poor sanitation. Just an FYI!

Last but not least! the water from the tap is not "pasteurized" or sterile, so even though it is safe to drink, anything living in it will rapidly multiply once in the nice warm, nutrient filled perti dish on your back porch.

I am not trying to "preach" at you! As someone who tried those ion's and found that they don't work, I am trying to give you honest advice. If thay had kept my water clean I'd say so, but they didn't. It was just my wife and I. We both shower prior to soaking (as always) and trying to keep the water as clean as possible. My spa still got me sick, now I use the "chemicals" I hope whatever solution you use, keeps you safe and free from disease.

[chem geek]

A "minimal" chemical option for you would be to use chlorine by adding it only after you soak and add only enough to measure the smallest of residual FC some time within an hour of soaking [EDIT] before the next time you soak [END-EDIT]. That should mostly kill bacteria though obviously not during your soak. The main problem is that the hot tub itch bacteria that are on your skin could still potentially get to the spa surface and form biofilms where they won't get killed but *maybe* the metal ions might inhibit that. Chlorine would be better, of course, but as I say having chlorine in the water most of the time except during soaking is far better than not at all. It's basically what a lot of people do with Nature2 systems, be it with chlorine or with MPS (non-chlorine shock).

[Stevie]

And just an FYI... I'ver read you mention the "clarity" of the water a few times now. Please don't be mislead that clear water is safe water.

Battery acid is clear too...

It is one of the biggest mistakes spa owners make.

It's unfortunate that you can not use some form of sanitizer in the spa. With all the alternatives out there (moreso in the USA), I'm surprised you don't have an option...

Good luck

[Brian_GP1200R]

I can understand not wanting to use "harsh chemicals", however you're very likely to make your self sick (again) by not using an EPA approved sanitizer (you know you have 3 options right?). Even the silver ion products still recommend regular use of an EPA approved sanitizer. Draining and refilling the water is not enough as you'll quickly allow things to grow within the plumbing. At least follow chem geek's suggestion and use chlorine to kill everything off. It will normally disapate within a day or so and will kill off all the bacteria and will disappear before you get in, then shock it again after you get out to kill off everything you introduced into the water.

[Nitro]

Did I miss something? Why can't you use "chemicals"? Is it because you have some sort of alergy, or do you just believe they're bad for you?

[Stevie]

Draining and refilling the water is not enough as you'll quickly allow things to grow within the plumbing.

Great point! Draining will NOT get rid of bacteria within the plumbing but instead, you will just contaminate the new water without solving anything.

I too am unclear why you couldn't safely treat the water periodically with chlorine and let the reading drop back down? Can you fully explain your condition and why an approaved sanitizer of any kind can't be used to keep your spa safe?

Maybe a spa just isn't for you if you are forced to not use any sanitizer. The result could easily be worse than sustaining a .5 - 1ppm reading of chlorine.

[Machaon]

Do you have a well or is it city water? Because a small amount of chlorine after use and your next soak will have zero or close to the same amount of chlorine as in your drinking water.

I have city water, and there is chlorine and other chemicals in the water, which, believe it or not, explains some things to me. For instance, even without chemicals I can't use the spa! It's amazing that, sometimes, the most obvious escapes us.

I guess I would like to know what "harsh" chemical you are talking about?? The preservatives in your food are probably harsher than the residual chlorine. Or the fumes from your car. Or the pesticide residue on your fruits and veggies.

I fully agree with your comments about other possible sources of problems.

... Have you thought about how you'll kill those water Nazi's (bacteria) growing inside your pumps, heater, hoses, and plumbing by just draining and refilling. You'll have to get some shock into those areas to keep it clean, or draining and refilling will do you no good! ... I am not trying to "preach" at you! As someone who tried those ion's and found that they don't work, I am trying to give you honest advice. If thay had kept my water clean I'd say so, but they didn't. It was just my wife and I. We both shower prior to soaking (as always) and trying to keep the water as clean as possible. My spa still got me sick, now I use the "chemicals" I hope whatever solution you use, keeps you safe and free from disease.

I appreciate the advice. I guess I am lucky that I haven't caught anything from the spa. Unfortunately I can't use the spa, chemicals or not. It took quite an effort to install the "in-line" ionizer. There wasn't any room inside the pump area, so I had to bring the piping outside of the spa. Amazingly it didn't leak! All for naught!

A "minimal" chemical option for you would be to use chlorine by adding it only after you soak and add only enough to measure the smallest of residual FC some time within an hour of soaking before the next time you soak. That should mostly kill bacteria though obviously not during your soak.

I liked that idea and I was thinking of trying it. Thanks for your efforts!

Please don't be mislead that clear water is safe water.

Battery acid is clear too...

Actually..... before I drained the spa, the surface was looking less appetizing. OTOH, I learned a lot from posting my original question about, if I would be able to use an Ionizer without chemicals. For me, this thread helped me quite a bit. Thanks!

I can understand not wanting to use "harsh chemicals", however you're very likely to make your self sick (again) by not using an EPA approved sanitizer (you know you have 3 options right?). Even the silver ion products still recommend regular use of an EPA approved sanitizer.

The "rule" was that I couldn't use "harsh chemicals". I don't make the rules. So I came to this forum, in the hope of finding some other options. What I found was a group of concerned people who were willing to provide good information and suggestions. Nice forum!

Did I miss something? Why can't you use "chemicals"? Is it because you have some sort of alergy, or do you just believe they're bad for you?

You didn't miss anything. The discussion really didn't come up.

Draining will NOT get rid of bacteria within the plumbing but instead, you will just contaminate the new water without solving anything.

I agree.

Maybe a spa just isn't for you if you are forced to not use any sanitizer. The result could easily be worse than sustaining a .5 - 1ppm reading of chlorine.

I've given up on the idea of being able to use the spa. The input, ideas and knowledge that were shared on this thread assisted me in making my decision. We have drained the spa and have used it for storage. We have placed all of our hurricane supplies in the spa. It really works great, for that, and it freed up a lot of other space. It makes for a nice looking piece of furniture.

Thanks to all for the great input, suggestions and information. I appreciate you all taking the time to respond to my questions and trying to help me find a solution to my difficult challenge. Sometimes problems get resolved, less than desired.

[Roger]

OK...but thats to bad, loosing a fellow soaker is like loosing a family member even though your truely just another grain of sand on the internet beach.

When I start hearing talk of chemicals and a chemical soup in a spa I wonder where this comes from? After all my spa had city water (we drink that and live for a hundred years, maybe) I used baking soda to raise TA and PH (we cook with that and eat it) and then I kill the nasty stuff that I and my fellow soakers brought in, with chlorine level of 3-5 PPM. When I soaked again the chlorine level was almost non measurable by the test kit .5 PPM or even lower. My city water tested out at about .3 PPM but that varied alot from 0PPM to .5 so I figured where does this chemical bath speak come from?

I used minerals and ozone to maintain the water between soaks if you don't use it for a few days or even longer, but nothing more than maintaining water that was clean and previously sanitized and nothing nasty was being introduced.

I know you have your reasons for not wanting to soak in a small amount of cyunaric acid (the after effects of chlorine) and they must be good reasons because I think. and this is just my opinion, that there are alot worse things we subject our bodys to everyday than that.

[Machaon]

I know you have your reasons for not wanting to soak in a small amount of cyunaric acid (the after effects of chlorine) and they must be good reasons because I think.

There is nothing I would like more than to be able to use my spa, but instead, I will not be able to enjoy the rewards of the effort and money that I spent on the spa and the ionizer, etc., But...... I'll forgive the small defeats as long as I do well on bigger, more important challenges.

and this is just my opinion, that there are a lot worse things we subject our bodys to everyday than that.

A lot worse!

Obviously the chemicals that are used in spas and pools are very well tolerated because countless millions use spas and pools everyday without any problems. I'm certainly not one of those that are against the chemicals used in spas and pools, and I would never warn most people not to use spas or pools because of the chemicals.

Spa-on my friend!

Thanks for your feedback.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Obviously the chemicals that are used in spas and pools are very well tolerated because countless millions use spas and pools everyday without any problems. I'm certainly not one of those that are against the chemicals used in spas and pools, and I would never warn most people not to use spas or pools because of the chemicals.

Spa-on my friend!

Thanks for your feedback.

If you're worried about chlroine you can still sanitize your water. I have people add 1 teaspoon of chlorine granules per person after each use. This will sanitize AND dissipate very quickly in the hot water. If you take a test strip the next morning after a previous night soak that measely amount of chlorine will be gone (it'll ahev abotut eh same amount as the water coming from yuor tap) and your water will have been santized. Using this method along with an ozonator and silver cartridge allows for chlroine free soaking. Its not like pools where you keep a chlorine which keeps a constant level of chlroine or like using a bromine floater in a spa which also keeps a cosntant sanitizer level.

Now if you just hate the word "chemical" and are really just trying to avoide using a sanitizer based on "principal" then all I can say is make sure you avoid using your spa if it has any dihydrogen monoxide in it because that stuff can be dangerous.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Maybe your better suited for a Sauna!

[Roger]

Maybe your better suited for a Sauna!

Now you talkin my language!!!

[kengorman]

I can say is make sure you avoid using your spa if it has any dihydrogen monoxide in it because that stuff can be dangerous.

I wasn't aware of the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (dmho) until recently. Concerned, I tested my spa for its presence and found (un?)usually high levels of it. Draining my spa seemed to remedy the problem, but shortly after refilling, the dmho levels would be at their pre-drained levels again.

I own an Infinity spa - I don't know if high dmho levels are specific or common to Infinity spas or whether high levels can be found in other spas as well.

The levels of dmho don't seem related to the actual water source I used to fill my spa. Some have noted that well water may have high levels of iron or other minerals versus municipal tap water. My experience is that dihydrogen monoxide levels are similar irrespective of whether the tub is filled from the tap or from a well.

Interestingly, if I leave the cover to my spa off, the dihydrogen monoxide levels will drop slightly on hot, sunny days but will rise slightly during rain-storms.

Regards,

Ken

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I can say is make sure you avoid using your spa if it has any dihydrogen monoxide in it because that stuff can be dangerous.

I wasn't aware of the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (dmho) until recently. Concerned, I tested my spa for its presence and found (un?)usually high levels of it. Draining my spa seemed to remedy the problem, but shortly after refilling, the dmho levels would be at their pre-drained levels again.

I own an Infinity spa - I don't know if high dmho levels are specific or common to Infinity spas or whether high levels can be found in other spas as well.

The levels of dmho don't seem related to the actual water source I used to fill my spa. Some have noted that well water may have high levels of iron or other minerals versus municipal tap water. My experience is that dihydrogen monoxide levels are similar irrespective of whether the tub is filled from the tap or from a well.

Interestingly, if I leave the cover to my spa off, the dihydrogen monoxide levels will drop slightly on hot, sunny days but will rise slightly during rain-storms.

Regards,

Ken

Made me think for a minute or two!

[B0Darc]

Hiyas peeps long time no see!

Well I was checkin' out some old email and ended up back here. Great thread. I'll spare all the quotes and just tell my story. I have a 400 gallon spa with an mineral add-on filter and an ozonator, and since I started following chemgeeks advice of 2 weeks of di-chlor and then several fluid ounces of Clorox daily I have just enjoyed 6 months of clear water! I was trying to go for the record and actually about half way through my little experiment I over filled the spa and likely performed the equivalent of replacing half of the water. I went all the way through spring and summer on one batch of water and only towards the last week or two was I getting foaming and "sluggish" water (aeration bubbles don't dissipate as quickly)

Now to clarify, chemgeek never said you should attempt 6 months, but it was so easy! I'm sure however the half change-out contributed greatly. I never needed to add anything but Clorox. Weekly I would add double-triple Clorox for shock and it worked noticeably well. I also have 1+ year old filters because i degrease them with filter cleaner monthly (or about 3 times every two months) and use CLR (Calcium Lime rust) every couple months to de mineralize the paper/outer filter. For weekly cleaning I toss them in the dishwasher with plain Cascade dish powder on RINSE ONLY (drying with heated elements would be DUMB!) and take them right out. This year I have likely spent 20$ on Clorox and $15 on Di-Chlor... that's it. The wifey and I use it every day for about 15-30 minutes and longer if friends come over... about 6 days a week.

Machaon... here's the trick. Learning the minimum amount of Clorox to add WHEN YOU GET OUT so there is only 1 PPM (minimum readable amount on your test strip) for when you get in! Right after I add Clorox it's all the way up there at 5 ppm, but 24 hours later you will be barely able to detect the chlorine and it's incredibly harmless to your skin... much less than the bacteria!. When you get out run your jets for a cycle or two with the Clorox added and on the weekends when you shock be sure you run your jets for about an hour with the double-Clorox shock... then clean your filter.

Before I came to this forum I WAS STRUGGLING with my hot tub/water. I also was wary of chemicals. While Clorox is obviously very powerful in it's concentrated form... a third of a cup in 400 gallons of water is enough to kill about everything and be dissipated 24 hours later when you get back in! If you find you have to shock or kill bad stuff out-of-cycle (companies coming!) the non-chlorine shock works because you can get right in 15 minutes later. It's simply an oxygen based equivalent of Clorox ...I haven't bought Oxone based (non-chlorine shock) in almost a year. Since I get in every day and add Clorox daily I have ZERO problems. We just came back from vacation and I just added like a cup of Clorox and covered it up tight as we walked out the door... it was ready to get in when I returned 7 days later ...well actually I added several ounces that night we got in ;-)

So... don't be afraid of Chlorine. If you do it consistently and read more of the advice on the forum one level up (Water Chemistry) you should feel more comfy. A better quality test kit might give you more scientific results instead of simple (and perhaps not so accurate) test strips. When I get in my spa the last thing I want to do is smell Chlorine, so I have managed to know exactly how *little* Clorox I can get away with adding, and when it smells like Chlorine it's actually more than likely Chloramine which is the combining of the Clorox and my bodies ammonia. If thats a problem, just run the jets for a cycle or two before you get in and know it's time to double up to shock, run your aerated jets for an hour and clean your filters. That's why you need to run your jets for a cycle or two when you get out and have just added add chlorine ... you just made a fresh batch of Chloramine and the bubbling jets help speed that dissipating

The cost of water to change out every week would make your soaking fun painfully un$$fun. How much is 400 gallons of $water$? Don't forget the 800 gallon charge for $$Sewer$$ Most cities charge (additional 2X water cost... even if it doesn't go down the drain!)

I missed you guys! Thanks for saving me a couple of HUNDRED bucks (easy!) on spa chemicals! uh not to mention ...water ...sewer ...the time ...and ease ...oh yeah no topical skin infections (!!!) oh I just reminded myself it's time to go do my spa... where is that Margarita mix?