Spa Wars

[D.P. Roberts]

My inititial post was to make the point that most of the discussions lately have been around how a sugnificantly overpriced generic product of assembled components can generate a micro industry in our economy of excess.

Oh. I thought the point of your initial post was to tell us all to shove it up our collective Arsses. Or did I read that wrong?

[thestallion]

lol....help me out here....I was just making a attempt at humor perhaps it was a poor attemp...but none the less....the article in question is what this thread was all about to began with and I was confused as to why in the words of Mel Gibson playing William Wallace did you tell us to shove it up our "Arsses"....Also if you don't want a spa why would you read this board. But please lets let bygones be bygones and tell us more about the ferret....

[chickengizzards]

lol....help me out here....I was just making a attempt at humor perhaps it was a poor attemp...but none the less....the article in question is what this thread was all about to began with and I was confused as to why in the words of Mel Gibson playing William Wallace did you tell us to shove it up our "Arsses"....Also if you don't want a spa why would you read this board. But please lets let bygones be bygones and tell us more about the ferret....

My sincere apologies to all for my caustic comment and poor judgement. I do not want to offend the participants of this forum.

My flip post was fueled by a rather fiery exchange on a completely unrelated forum and too much wine. (I should know better by now).

Anyway, looking through the posts here I am still frustrated by the overall state of the spa industry as a potential customer. In one way or another, my confidence to buy any particular make or model has been undermined by unreasonable pricing, deceptive advertising, poor quality, lame local sales people and equally lame dealers, or internet wackos (other than myself).

I have been researching and evaluating spas for a few years now off and on, and still read these forums to see if anything worthwhile might come up. I see nothing new, but I still miss Jimmy the Jim Jim.

Until I am confident enough to buy, I will seek solace and comfort with my ferret and return to my lurking status here.

Thanks for your understanding.

P.S. Nice catch on the William Wallace quote.

[thestallion]

lol....help me out here....I was just making a attempt at humor perhaps it was a poor attemp...but none the less....the article in question is what this thread was all about to began with and I was confused as to why in the words of Mel Gibson playing William Wallace did you tell us to shove it up our "Arsses"....Also if you don't want a spa why would you read this board. But please lets let bygones be bygones and tell us more about the ferret....

My sincere apologies to all for my caustic comment and poor judgement. I do not want to offend the participants of this forum.

My flip post was fueled by a rather fiery exchange on a completely unrelated forum and too much wine. (I should know better by now).

Anyway, looking through the posts here I am still frustrated by the overall state of the spa industry as a potential customer. In one way or another, my confidence to buy any particular make or model has been undermined by unreasonable pricing, deceptive advertising, poor quality, lame local sales people and equally lame dealers, or internet wackos (other than myself).

I have been researching and evaluating spas for a few years now off and on, and still read these forums to see if anything worthwhile might come up. I see nothing new, but I still miss Jimmy the Jim Jim.

Until I am confident enough to buy, I will seek solace and comfort with my ferret and return to my lurking status here.

Thanks for your understanding.

P.S. Nice catch on the William Wallace quote.

Thank you for a most eloquent apology. no worries at all.....but something you said and perhaps it is boards like this that perpetuate the feeling but what makes you say:

"Anyway, looking through the posts here I am still frustrated by the overall state of the spa industry as a potential customer. In one way or another, my confidence to buy any particular make or model has been undermined by unreasonable pricing, deceptive advertising, poor quality, lame local sales people and equally lame dealers, or internet wackos"

There are a few widely accepted makers out there that "most" agree are a safe bet to go with, the state of unrest seems to pop up when a maker who many in the industry know what they put out and how they back their products and someone will come to a forum like this and start to spill a bunch of untruths about the maker and saying how they are as good as or better than those who have proven themselves over the long haul. And they get called out on it by those who are in the industry and know what that maker is all about.

Something I think that gets lost here is that we as dealers can carry "almost" any line we want and I think most of choose to carry what we feel represents, value, quality, and simply the things that most want in a spa. The problem that arises most often is when someone come in and starts to talk about the virtues of this lower priced tub and how it is all the equal of a Major brand, much like cars and most people can identify with cars and brands much more so than spas, KIA while it may be a fine car in and of itself is simply not the equal of a Lexus or BMW, and with most every and all manufactured consumable product, you pretty much get what you pay for, the great thing about our "free market" system is that it has built into to it a set of check and balances (yes there are expect ions), but by and large for any business to have staying power you will have to be competitive in the market or you will quickly fall by the wayside. I think there are good value brands out there to fit a budget of different needs, Nordic, Diamante, come to mind for me, but in the end the upper line spas simply always offer better fit and finish, a better and more complete warranty and most of the time simply a nicer over all spa. Thats not to say there is not a place or need for value spas of course there is but they are not going to be the same as the upper end tubs. You know the funny thng is in almost everything we can purchase even things like bread and ice cream, you can say its all the same, flour, eggs, milk, etc, but we all know there is a reason we reach for the Ben and Jerrys or the Hagen Das when we want something good.....

[Rob W]

Anyway, looking through the posts here I am still frustrated by the overall state of the spa industry as a potential customer. In one way or another, my confidence to buy any particular make or model has been undermined by unreasonable pricing, deceptive advertising, poor quality, lame local sales people and equally lame dealers, or internet wackos (other than myself).

I'm not sure I would call it 'deceptive advertising' but maybe close. All these major spa companies (Hot Springs, Caldera, Sundance, Marquis, Dimension 1, etc) make references to 'our competitors spa' not using full foam insulation, using inferior materials, say stuff like 'our jets are patented', are heater has a titanium core, our pumps have Viton seals, most spas the jet pump pulls double duty, our warranties are better, blah, blah. I'm not sure who they consider their 'competitors' but most of them IMO don't do anything much different. They are all full foam insulation, they all probably have titanium or stainless-steel heaters, they all use Viton seals or something equally comparable, they all have patented designs, they all have circ pumps (except one), they all use quality materials and all the warranties are extremely close. So it is total bullshit about exactly who they consider 'our competitors' or 'those other spa companies'. Some of the companies do it to greater degrees than others, but bottom line is they all try to make it sound like there's are better when in fact many of the examples they give are features that they all have.

[thestallion]

Wow Rob,

Thats sounds like what happens with Ketchup, Cars, Stereos, Computers, Appliances, health care, etc, etc, etc like while almost anything you can purchase I mean hummmm....it.... it sounds a like free market system where you try and promote your brand and how while being in the same product category it is still unique.

[Rob W]

Wow Rob,

... it sounds a like free market system where you try and promote your brand and how while being in the same product category it is still unique.

Yep, I guess you're right. In other words use deceptive and/or mis-leading strategies and sometimes even tell outright lies. It's the American way. You assume everyone is an idiot and play on that assumption. I guess even the politicians do it. Or should I say, especially the politicians......oh, and spa salesmen.

[thestallion]

Wow Rob,

... it sounds a like free market system where you try and promote your brand and how while being in the same product category it is still unique.

Yep, I guess you're right. In other words use deceptive and/or mis-leading strategies and sometimes even tell outright lies. It's the American way. You assume everyone is an idiot and play on that assumption. I guess even the politicians do it. Or should I say, especially the politicians......oh, and spa salesmen.

Rob, come on be a adult, I never said anything about lying . I despise all those who do, but pointing to the differences in your product is not lying. Why have choices, all cars are just metal, fabric, You need to watch your how was said your "Arss" because what I despise with the same amount of disdain I have for lairs is those weak people who simply try and put their words into another's mouth like what you said about me and assuming all are idiots, The simple reality is that I think most all people are bright enough to figure out that most of time like products cost similar amounts of money and when something is significantly less than most of the time there a genuine reason, I guess I just have more faith in people than you might and in their ability to make a well informed decision to purchase a product of their choosing based on real feature's and not just fluff marketing but unlike you it appears that I can at least understand that in just about everything one can buy there will be many choices and the people who represent those products many will have a believe the differences no matter how small make theirs the overall better product.

[thestallion]

You know it a amazing thing when you get someone with a big mouth of manurer, like the person who wrote this article and than others who simply point out its falsehood get taken to task for it but the originator skates off free of responsibility for their own words,

Blatantly false statements in the article include:

100% mark-up

Dealers sub out service

Dealers sub out deliveries

Makers just order the components from a catalog

[D.P. Roberts]

Something I think that gets lost here is that we as dealers can carry "almost" any line we want and I think most of choose to carry what we feel represents, value, quality, and simply the things that most want in a spa.

This leads me to a question I've been wondering about for a while. The blog mentions how frustrating it is to "comparison shop" because you can't find two dealers in a given area who carry the same lines. For example, I live between two cities: one has a population of 100,000, and the other has a population of 1,000,000. Yet each city has exactly one dealer for most of the major manufacturers. You would think that if the city of 100,000 could support one dealer, the city that's ten times larger could support ten dealers - instead of just one. Do manufacturers assign a certain area to make sure that dealers aren't competing with each other, or what?

[thestallion]

Something I think that gets lost here is that we as dealers can carry "almost" any line we want and I think most of choose to carry what we feel represents, value, quality, and simply the things that most want in a spa.

This leads me to a question I've been wondering about for a while. The blog mentions how frustrating it is to "comparison shop" because you can't find two dealers in a given area who carry the same lines. For example, I live between two cities: one has a population of 100,000, and the other has a population of 1,000,000. Yet each city has exactly one dealer for most of the major manufacturers. You would think that if the city of 100,000 could support one dealer, the city that's ten times larger could support ten dealers - instead of just one. Do manufacturers assign a certain area to make sure that dealers aren't competing with each other, or what?

The bottom line is there are simply not enough buyers to support the stores, Spa sales run about 400,000 units annually, Autos sales by comparison are about 16 million. For all the talk about the evil dealer getting rich it is simply not true, most dealers are just Mom and Pop type stores who are just trying to make a living. There are some super stores that carry spas along with many outdoor items and there are dealers who have multi stores but for the vast majority most a are smaller family run stores.

[Rob W]

I never meant to imply you were lying. I was talking about advertising in general and happened to mention politicians and spa salesmen as a joke. Not that it necessarily is a joke. It's actually not far off. How on Earth you thought I was talking about you is beyond me.

[thestallion]

I never meant to imply you were lying. I was talking about advertising in general and happened to mention politicians and spa salesmen as a joke. Not that it necessarily is a joke. It's actually not far off. How on Earth you thought I was talking about you is beyond me.

Rob,

lol...How I thought you were speaking of me is when you quoted me, I took strong offense when you said I assume all are idiots, when nothing is further from the truth. Maybe just a misunderstanding...Congratulations on your new tub.

[Rob W]

Nope..sorry, the quote was just your comment on the free market system...you were speaking generally, so was I. I am familiar enough with sales tactics though to know that a lot is based on the assumption that the customer is not educated on the product, will believe just about anything and is vulnerable to high pressure. Maybe not all sales but enough to give one a bad taste, which unfortunately is what I have ... and I guess it shows. One of the most important devices to me is the mute button and the volume control on the radio, both of which get tweaked whenever a commercial comes on. Commercialism, advertising and sales methods in general are near number 1 on my disdain list. What goes on in the attempt to remove the hard-earned dollars from the average citizen's pockets is nothing short of criminal. Nothing personal to anyone here.

And thanks, I'm sure we will enjoy the Caldera

[thestallion]

Rob,

You said:

"all the warranties are extremely close. So it is total bullshit about exactly who they consider 'our competitors' "

Here is just a question and its genuine, Your statement about warranties while I would not call it false is very inaccurate, If you like I can break the real and tangible differences down for you, but what I was wondering about is it wrong to point those out to a shopper and if you do as a spa salesman are you the bad guy for simply stating them or is the guy who really did not explain to you what is and is not covered and in just big board strokes threw out what would on the surface appear to be a solid warranty and led you to believe that all spa warranties are about the same is he the real bad guy. Its been my experience that most people on these boards like hearing what supports their decision to buy and if you point out a real difference than you are just being a bad mouthing sleazy spa salesman.

[D.P. Roberts]

Something I think that gets lost here is that we as dealers can carry "almost" any line we want and I think most of choose to carry what we feel represents, value, quality, and simply the things that most want in a spa.

This leads me to a question I've been wondering about for a while. The blog mentions how frustrating it is to "comparison shop" because you can't find two dealers in a given area who carry the same lines. For example, I live between two cities: one has a population of 100,000, and the other has a population of 1,000,000. Yet each city has exactly one dealer for most of the major manufacturers. You would think that if the city of 100,000 could support one dealer, the city that's ten times larger could support ten dealers - instead of just one. Do manufacturers assign a certain area to make sure that dealers aren't competing with each other, or what?

The bottom line is there are simply not enough buyers to support the stores, Spa sales run about 400,000 units annually, Autos sales by comparison are about 16 million. For all the talk about the evil dealer getting rich it is simply not true, most dealers are just Mom and Pop type stores who are just trying to make a living. There are some super stores that carry spas along with many outdoor items and there are dealers who have multi stores but for the vast majority most a are smaller family run stores.

I'm not one who believes that spa dealers out there are making it rich - most of the ones around me are "mom and pop" stores, and the owners seem to be decent people (I Googled them, and the owners are involved in their local communities, charities, etc.). But, based on my situation, I just can't buy the volume issue.

I think it may be more of a "dealer/manufacturer relationship" issue - I don't know if a dealer is literally assigned a sales area in a contract or not, but it must be implied. For example, if I was a dealer, and I'd had sales at a high volume for years, I would be very upset if a manufacturer allowed another dealer in my sales area, and my sales suddenly got cut in half. It may make sense (i.e. I'm in a growing area that can support multiple dealers), but from a personal and financial perspective it would make me angry. And I doubt most manufacturers would want to have angry dealers - it's bad for business.

[thestallion]

Here is the thing that most all makers look at will the addition of a another dealer in a community sell them more spas or just split the same sales between 2 dealers, if you are just going to split the sales or "maybe" have a slight or minor increase it is not worth it as you weaken both dealers and make it difficult for either to survive. So again its not about population, I am in area that depending on what you look at is either 4 or 15 million yet there is still a limited amount of dealers because again there are only so many shoppers. And the annual sales numbers I quoted are about right for both industries.

[D.P. Roberts]

Here is the thing that most all makers look at will the addition of a another dealer in a community sell them more spas or just split the same sales between 2 dealers, if you are just going to split the sales or "maybe" have a slight or minor increase it is not worth it as you weaken both dealers and make it difficult for either to survive. So again its not about population, I am in area that depending on what you look at is either 4 or 15 million yet there is still a limited amount of dealers because again there are only so many shoppers. And the annual sales numbers I quoted are about right for both industries.

I think we're basically talking about the same thing - shoppers vs. population, either way you'd have to have a REALLY big area to definitely support multiple dealers from the same brand. If I did the math right, that's 1330 spa buyers per 1,000,000 people, and that's spa sales of ALL brands, so any one dealer's chunk of that (10? 20%?) will be rather small. And even if a population is really growing, it doesn't all happen overnight, so a dealer will be growing his or her business the whole time - there's no point where he/she would be suddenly ready for his or her business to be cut in half.

Aside from my personal perspective as a shopper, I've been thinking about starting a spa business some day. Some of the biggest names - such as Hot Spring, Sundance, etc. are already represented (none in my county, but within 20-25 miles or so). Hypothetically, I'd love to represent those brands, but I have no interest in competing with those dealers anyway. However, many other equally good brands, such as D1, Marquis, Arctic, Artesian, and others are not represented, or aren't within 40 miles or so. I've been trying to estimate how much of a "footprint" the dealers in the 40-60 mile range have in my area, if any, and whether that's considered to be too close to another dealer's area.

[thestallion]

Here is the thing that most all makers look at will the addition of a another dealer in a community sell them more spas or just split the same sales between 2 dealers, if you are just going to split the sales or "maybe" have a slight or minor increase it is not worth it as you weaken both dealers and make it difficult for either to survive. So again its not about population, I am in area that depending on what you look at is either 4 or 15 million yet there is still a limited amount of dealers because again there are only so many shoppers. And the annual sales numbers I quoted are about right for both industries.

I think we're basically talking about the same thing - shoppers vs. population, either way you'd have to have a REALLY big area to definitely support multiple dealers from the same brand. If I did the math right, that's 1330 spa buyers per 1,000,000 people, and that's spa sales of ALL brands, so any one dealer's chunk of that (10? 20%?) will be rather small. And even if a population is really growing, it doesn't all happen overnight, so a dealer will be growing his or her business the whole time - there's no point where he/she would be suddenly ready for his or her business to be cut in half.

Aside from my personal perspective as a shopper, I've been thinking about starting a spa business some day. Some of the biggest names - such as Hot Spring, Sundance, etc. are already represented (none in my county, but within 20-25 miles or so). Hypothetically, I'd love to represent those brands, but I have no interest in competing with those dealers anyway. However, many other equally good brands, such as D1, Marquis, Arctic, Artesian, and others are not represented, or aren't within 40 miles or so. I've been trying to estimate how much of a "footprint" the dealers in the 40-60 mile range have in my area, if any, and whether that's considered to be too close to another dealer's area.

If you want to start a store, I would say to make it a well rounded full service store for both pool and spas, pools being above ground and pool supply's, unless you are builder. Be competent and know your product, One thing I can tell you is most "real" shoppers who come into your store are not like the folks on these boards most just want a good spa and they equate that to stereos, lights and well you know the bling. The biggest obstacle to over come is helping someone to think about the things they can't see that will make the spa they choose last and cost efficient to run each month.

[Rob W]

Rob,

You said:

"all the warranties are extremely close. So it is total bullshit about exactly who they consider 'our competitors' "

Here is just a question and its genuine, Your statement about warranties while I would not call it false is very inaccurate, If you like I can break the real and tangible differences down for you, but what I was wondering about is it wrong to point those out to a shopper and if you do as a spa salesman are you the bad guy for simply stating them or is the guy who really did not explain to you what is and is not covered and in just big board strokes threw out what would on the surface appear to be a solid warranty and led you to believe that all spa warranties are about the same is he the real bad guy. Its been my experience that most people on these boards like hearing what supports their decision to buy and if you point out a real difference than you are just being a bad mouthing sleazy spa salesman.

You may compare a couple of your choosing and I will give you my opinion if you like. I may have spoken a little generally, but I consider the main competition to be along the lines of Marquis, D1, Caldera, Sundance or Hot Springs and a few of the others maybe.

[Tom]

I think it may be more of a "dealer/manufacturer relationship" issue - I don't know if a dealer is literally assigned a sales area in a contract or not, but it must be implied.

In some cases, a dealer will open a second store in an adjacent area. No customers are "stolen", and the dealer gets some benefits from scale (discounts on product for larger orders, reduced shipping costs, ability to share inventory). To go back to the "Spa Wars" idea, this might tend towards uniform pricing within the chain. Then again, one store may be designated as the "Discount" store, the outlet where blems, factory seconds, older floor models, scratch-and-dents etc. are moved out at bargain prices.

[This Looks Interesting]

Blimey. I was browsing through my blog stats and noticed a large spike from here. Didn't expect my blog post to cause such controversy.

I never claimed this to be an article, authoritative or that I'm an expert in anything. I just posted my experience/opinion as a consumer that I thought other consumers may find useful.

[Shaamus]

And here you are bumping it again...

[Trigger]

....I just posted my experience/opinion as a consumer that I thought other consumers may find useful.

No you didn't.

An opinion is a statement of belief, or sentiment, or viewpoint and is subjective. In your few paragraphs you make statments of fact, that are false.

Not all attention is good attention.