Rob W Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I'll have to say, this has been one of the most difficult buying decisions I have ever had to make. There are just too many choices in my price range. Anyway, here are the final 3 choices and price quotes along with some final concerns and questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW, these 2 dealers have been calling me almost daily and both have made their final concessions I believe. 1. Marquis Epic - This is a wet floor model with very little use. Silver swirl w/ coastal gray exterior. The dealer says he's had it since Dec 2006 and says it is the latest model although he can't seem to tell me if it's a 2006 or 2007. Comes with cover lifter, steps, 3 month startup kit and 2 extra filters, delivery - Cash price $7500 (no tax), charge price $7995. Pros - 3 seats with necks jets, thigh and calf jets in lounger, better startup kit and extra filters, better warranty Cons - Spa frog, no circ pump, can't choose colors, dealer is 80 miles away. 2. Caldera Geneva - Dry floor model, 2007, Sterling Marble w/ coastal gray exterior, includes Prolift cover lifter, steps, startup kit, delivery - $7500 cash or charge (no tax) Pros - Local dealer, exterior lighting Cons -can't choose colors, interior has a scuff on top edge, only 1 seat w/ neck jets 3. Caldera Tahitian - Brand new 2007 w/ Prolift cover lifter, steps, startup kit, delivery. - $7700 cash or charge (no tax) Pros - local dealer, can choose colors, exterior lighting Cons - only 1 seat w/ neck jets Questions- 1. What the heck is a Viton pump seal and are these exclusive to Marquis pumps? They seem to make a big deal about them. 2. I've heard complaints about the expense of using the Spa Frog chemical dispenser. Are these that bad? I'm assuming I cannot use it if I don't want and just add chems to the water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I'll have to say, this has been one of the most difficult buying decisions I have ever had to make. There are just too many choices in my price range. Anyway, here are the final 3 choices and price quotes along with some final concerns and questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW, these 2 dealers have been calling me almost daily and both have made their final concessions I believe. 1. Marquis Epic - This is a wet floor model with very little use. Silver swirl w/ coastal gray exterior. The dealer says he's had it since Dec 2006 and says it is the latest model although he can't seem to tell me if it's a 2006 or 2007. Comes with cover lifter, steps, 3 month startup kit and 2 extra filters, delivery - Cash price $7500 (no tax), charge price $7995. Pros - 3 seats with necks jets, thigh and calf jets in lounger, better startup kit and extra filters, better warranty Cons - Spa frog, no circ pump, can't choose colors, dealer is 80 miles away. 2. Caldera Geneva - Dry floor model, 2007, Sterling Marble w/ coastal gray exterior, includes Prolift cover lifter, steps, startup kit, delivery - $7500 cash or charge (no tax) Pros - Local dealer Cons -can't choose colors, interior has a scuff on top edge 3. Caldera Tahitian - Brand new 2007 w/ Prolift cover lifter, steps, startup kit, delivery. - $7700 cash or charge (no tax) Pros - local dealer, can choose colors Cons - none Questions- 1. What the heck is a Viton pump seal and are these exclusive to Marquis pumps? They seem to make a big deal about them. 2. I've heard complaints about the expense of using the Spa Frog chemical dispenser. Are these that bad? I'm assuming I cannot use it if I don't want and just add chems to the water? 1) The viton pump seal will help eliminate pump failure due to chemical damage. Both companies use them tough it seems that just one of them discussed it. It's only an issue if you're looking at a brand that doesn't use them. 2) You don't have to use the spa frog. I'm not a fan of bromine but some are. You could always try it and stop any time (after draining). All those models are good spas and each has their own pluses. Go with which one you TRULY like best. BTW, the warranties should be nearly identical with the only difference being the Marquis is transferable if you sell the spa to someone; otherwise that is a wash too. If you go with the dealer that is 80 miles way you should definitely get in writing that there will be no trip charge for warranty service (a fairly standard thing seen nowadays, especially with a distance like that). As far as that scuff goes, I'd ask the dealer to buff it out if they didn't bring it up. That can almost always be done to where you can not notice it alt all afterward (though it'll get scuffs later anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestallion Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I was unaware Watkins used Viton Marquis does and has no pump seal exclusion on their warranty. Both are very good spas, FOR ME Marquis simply has more comfortable jets, I have soaked in Caldera's and found myself getting itchy very quickly but there are those people who love them, they are just not for me as the jetting goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 I was unaware Watkins used Viton Marquis does and has no pump seal exclusion on their warranty. Yeah they are viton. I can't say how long that has been true but I think its been quite awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.P. Roberts Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 You haven't mentioned it in this thread, but have you actually wet tested all three of them? If not, that will probably make your decision for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W Posted September 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 You haven't mentioned it in this thread, but have you actually wet tested all three of them? If not, that will probably make your decision for you. You are very observant As a matter of fact, we have not tested either of the Calderas. Only the Moorea was available for wet testing and that's only because the dealer had one at his Bed and Breakfast establishment. He's got a pretty bare-bones, kinda rinky-dink showroom with nothing wet which is probably why he can offer the prices he does. We liked the Moorea so we are kind of going on faith. We have wet-tested the Epic and it was pretty darn awesome if my memory serves me correct. This is an extremely difficult choice as all of the prices are extremely reasonable, if not outstanding. To tell you the truth, I think the Epic is the best tub as far as therapy and jet/seating layout, but I think we would be perfectly happy with the Caldera and I like the fact that he's local. That's my dilemna. Do I go with what I feel is the best, or one that is a close second that I would be perfectly happy with and get the extra benefit of local service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.P. Roberts Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 It sounds like you've really thought everything else, and done all the research you can. I think you'll be happy with any of them. Good luck, and remember to post pictures of whichever one you get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 I'm partial to the Tahitian. Drive out on one here is $8,500. If it wasn't for my budget, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Is there anywhere else you can go to wet test and then buy from the guy with the good prices? It really would be worth the drive. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David66 Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 You haven't mentioned it in this thread, but have you actually wet tested all three of them? If not, that will probably make your decision for you. You are very observant As a matter of fact, we have not tested either of the Calderas. Only the Moorea was available for wet testing and that's only because the dealer had one at his Bed and Breakfast establishment. He's got a pretty bare-bones, kinda rinky-dink showroom with nothing wet which is probably why he can offer the prices he does. We liked the Moorea so we are kind of going on faith. We have wet-tested the Epic and it was pretty darn awesome if my memory serves me correct. This is an extremely difficult choice as all of the prices are extremely reasonable, if not outstanding. To tell you the truth, I think the Epic is the best tub as far as therapy and jet/seating layout, but I think we would be perfectly happy with the Caldera and I like the fact that he's local. That's my dilemna. Do I go with what I feel is the best, or one that is a close second that I would be perfectly happy with and get the extra benefit of local service. You really must wet test before buying. I had high hopes for the Epic. My local dealer also does pools and he installed my above-ground and I was very happy with it. So naturally I wanted to give him my business for the hot tub. The Epic disappointed me compared to some other tubs I tried. I felt all of the Hot Springs were better, as far as jet power and therapy. I would also put the Caldera Niagara in front of the Epic. The one I went with ultimately was the D1 Nautilus, which blows the Epic away, IMHO. As you can see, I was looking for a non-lounger model, but after wet testing, my No. 1 choice was the D1 Chairman II. That tub is AWESOME. If you like neck jets, that model has 3, and they are the best neck jet system I came across. They adjust up and down, tilt slightly and have 4 jets that really massage the neck and shoulders. The lounger in the Chairman II has jets for the back of the legs, and the feet, and they can all be on at the same time, unlike the Epic. It also has a mode where you can have them turn on/off in a way that travels up and down the legs if you want. That tub rocks, and if it wasn't for the fact that my dealer wouldn't come down as much as I wanted him to, I would have gotten that one in a heartbeat. By the way, the Caldera model was a close second. I also tried the Sundance Optima, various Hot Springs models, a Tiger River model and Coleman in my wet testing. Price-wise, I was looking at around 9 or 10k for the Epic, Chairman II and Optima. I could have had the Niagara or the HS Grandee for around $8,500. Got the Nautilus for $7,750, so price was a part of my decision, but even if the Nautilus would have been more, I think I would have stuck with it over the Niagara. It's been up and running for a week now, and after a few soaks I can say that I'm very happy with it so far... Wet test the Calderas if you can. If you can't, based on my wet testing, I'd take the Calderas over the Epic (but I didn't sit in those two Caldera models). Good luck. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W Posted September 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Appreciate the replies. The next nearest Caldera dealers are both about a 5 hr round trip. I have all but eliminated the Epic I believe. The dealer just doesn't give straight answers and is a little condescending. Probably tired of dealing with me I wonder if he reads these forums. If so, hey sorry dude. Cut the crap and answer the specific questions next time. That spa is an April '06 model but he's supposedly only had it since December. I wonder what it was doing the other 9 months The service distance was an issue also with no straight answers. We try to do this, we'll take care of you, we'll work with you, it depends on this or that, blah, blah. Same with the spa frog question ... it depends on this or that, blah, blah, some people are idiots blah, blah. I like the Caldera guy....no sales crap whatsoever. I'm willing to take a chance without wet-testing based on my test of the Moorea and from all the comments I've read on both models. I'm leaning towards the Tahitian because it's basically the same as the Geneva but I think the smaller tub will 'fit' us better....my wife is 5'3" and I'm 5'10" (with a 31" inseam so kinda short legs). Plus we get brand new and color choice. So thanks everyone...I think this is it....my final answer. I will post pics (if anyone cares anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinyBubbles Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 I'd love to see pics! I'm sure I'll be green with envy. Be sure to include night pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W Posted September 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 OK .... it's final. I ordered a Caldera Tahitian in Ocean Blue and Coastal Gray. Prolift cover lifter, wood steps, chemical kit, delivery and setup, $7700 out the door. There is not a doubt in my mind, after a good 4 months and a couple hundred hours of research and some wet-testing, that these Caldera Utopian spas are as good (or damn close anyway) as any out there. These spa salesmen are ruthless, I tell you. The Sundance salesman tried to tell me the Marquis Epic was a POS (exact words). He said his would run about $30 a month compared to $60 for Marquis because the Marquis have no insulation! And the Sundances have 'patented jets'! The Marquis dealer said he used to sell Sundance and 'boy, he could tell me some stories about them'. The other Marquis/Dimension salesman acted like he'd never heard of Caldera. He's like , 'you know you buy from these no name dealers and the next thing you know they're out of business'. I said, 'ummm...they are owned by Hot Springs...you know Watkins?'. He's like 'Oh...well you better let me check into that for you and I'll get back to you'. I just told him more than he knew and he's going to get back to me...good grief, what a condescending ass. Believe me, the basic premise among salesmen (in general) is that the average consumer is an uneducated idiot who can't think for himself. The Caldera dealer also happened to be the one who gave me no bullshit whatsoever. Anyway, I'd be glad to give updates later. Thanks for all the advice and support! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 OK .... it's final. I ordered a Caldera Tahitian in Ocean Blue and Coastal Gray. Prolift cover lifter, wood steps, chemical kit, delivery and setup, $7700 out the door. There is not a doubt in my mind, after a good 4 months and a couple hundred hours of research and some wet-testing, that these Caldera Utopian spas are as good (or damn close anyway) as any out there. LOL, I didn't even know you were still looking; I assumed you owned. Are you sure you don't want to spend a few hundred more hours and wet test everything again to be sure you got it right?? Congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W Posted September 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 LOL, I didn't even know you were still looking; I assumed you owned. Are you sure you don't want to spend a few hundred more hours and wet test everything again to be sure you got it right?? Congrats. No....not an owner yet. I just act like I know everything already ...actually I do I think I'm done thanks. Actually I've seen people in some of the forums who have taken a lot longer than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 LOL, I didn't even know you were still looking; I assumed you owned. Are you sure you don't want to spend a few hundred more hours and wet test everything again to be sure you got it right?? Congrats. No....not an owner yet. I just act like I know everything already ...actually I do I think I'm done thanks. Actually I've seen people in some of the forums who have taken a lot longer than me For sure, I've seen people on these sites posting fairly regularly and then a year later getting their spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivieisme Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 So, how is the tub now??? Are you happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.The.Spa.Man Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 The dealer just doesn't give straight answers and is a little condescending. Probably tired of dealing with me I understand that buying a tub is a major investment to most, but sometimes a dealer reaches a point where they don't even want to sell a tub to certain people. Not saying this is the case with you but I have definitely been there with folks who have driven me to the point of wanting to run out of the front door and into oncoming traffic. I sell and service tubs and there was one family (with 3 kids) that must have come in at least 15 times to ask questions and wet test tubs. The parents spend most of the time asking completely obscure rediculous questions while the kids jump from spa cover to spa cover! A few weeks ago they came through the door at 4:57 knowing full well that we close at 5:00 on Sunday. After a half an hour of the kids whinning 'lets go' (I wish I could have yelled 'yes, please go') I hear a horrible series of wretching splash sounds only to discover that one of the kids projectile vommitted into the shell and and all over the cabinet of not one but two tubs. Just brutal! Another guy came in about 5 times in a week for hours at a time only interested in the HotSpring Vanguard model. He asked questions like: If I decide to upgrade and sell it in a year how much would it be worth and would you move it? How much would it cost to move? Well a few days later he calls to tell us that he bought a 1 year old Vanguard and could we move it to his house. If I could have reached through the phone to choke him I just might have. But then he asks to buy an ozonator, new filters, chemicals, and a cover lifter...all prices that I had given to him earlier when I thought he was buying a new tub from us. I couldn't have been happier to give him the full retail price for these items which was double the price that I would have included them for. He ended up spending more for this 1 year old used tub with no warranty than he would have for a newly wrapped one. Then, within a month his heater relay board blew out. That's sweet...sweet Karma. Don't get me wrong...99% of the customers that come in are great...but that 1% can really sour and burn you out sometimes. ***And congrats on the Tahitian...probably my favorite tub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL Parrothead Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Hey Rob W, what part of the country are you in? That price you were offered on the Epic sound great, and that's the tub I'm negotiating on. I'll hopefully use your offer as ammo during my next conversation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveH Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi, We just rebuilt our deck and added a spa platform. Long story short we bought a Caldera C-45 for $6995 from our local dealer Galati Pools in Newburgh, NY We found the Caldera to have much better hydrotherapy and jet arrangement than the Marquis at a lower price. Very surprised that Marquis won Consumer Reports best buy OR perhaps the demo unit we wet tested was defective. You MUST wet test the tubs before buying. I am 6'4" and did not know until the wet test just how important the tub depth was. Caldera is 38", Marquis was 34". Most tubs loungers are a waste but Caldera has a deeper and better contoured lounger than the others we saw and the heel holds make a big difference as to whether you will float or not. I got caught up in comparing 'gallon per minute' flow rates through the jets. Marquis makes a big deal about the 40 GPM rate on their HK40 jet. I found the Caldera Geneva/C-45 to have better hydrotherapy than the Marquis. Watkins refused to provide me with individual jet flow rates but the dual 2.5 HP pumps do provide incredible power. The Marquis seat controls appear to be co-dependant upon one another, i.e., you must get the selector dial in the correct position at more than one seat position to control your own jet combination at your seat wherein the Caldera the controls were more logical, you control your own seat/jet combination at your own seat more easily. We saved money since we didn't need exterior lighting, built in music or the air bubble jets so the C-45 was a perfect choice for us over the more expensive Geneva. We can plug in a light and iPod boombox to complete the scenario. Our tub gets installed in 2 weeks. Will let you know how it goes. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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