Jump to content

David66

Members
  • Posts

    64
  • Joined

  • Last visited

David66's Achievements

Spa Savant

Spa Savant (3/5)

0

Reputation

  1. I'll have to check, but I think I have it going for 30 minutes, 4 times a day. What would you recommend? A couple times a day? If I do it a couple times a day, then one of those will fall when the temperature should be cooler than the heat of the day. Thanks, David
  2. Depending upon how much I drained and replaced with cooler water, I don't think it would take too awful long for it to creep back up. We have consistently hot weather outside and it seems like the circ pump and ozone are almost always off. We don't use it that much this time of year, so I don't know how concerned about it I should be. I guess I don't understand why these two items, especially the ozone would shut off. Wouldn't it be good to circulate the water if it's getting too hot? And, why would the ozone ever shut off? When I turn the jets on, they both come back on, even before the temp lowers back down to what I have it set at. I have the filter cycle set to cycle 4 times a day, the maximum. Hopefully that will be enough to keep the water chemistry OK. Thanks, David
  3. Hi, I've had my D1 Nautilus for about a year. I've noticed lately that during the hotter summer days, I'll get a message saying "spa cooling. Circ pump and ozone are off" or something to that effect. I don't remember this happening last summer, but maybe it did (I was a newbie at that point Is there anything to worry about sanitation-wise? I wouldn't think it would be good if they stayed off all day during a hot summer day. The only way I can snap it out of this mode is to turn on the jets for awhile. I have the temp set at 100, and when the message comes on it is usually around 102. Thanks, David
  4. Thanks, Richard. Good to see you back on the forum! My CYA is around 45, and my tub is 380 gallons. How much chlorine should I add when shocking? I can pretty much plan on pH levels that are way too high when I shock with chlorine...better get the Muriatic acid out again. I've been fighting rising pH values for what seems like a long time now. I just can't get it to stay in the "safe" range for very long at all. How long does it take for scaling to begin to happen? I'm a bit concerned about it, because if I'm not testing constantly and adding Muriatic acid frequently, I'm sure the pH is too high...and let's face it, nobody is at home every single day and can "tend" to the hot tub every single day. It gets to be quite a chore (kinda like back home on the farm when I was growing up...the cows had to be milked every day, no Holidays off!) Thanks again! David
  5. Hi, I've been doing the bleach method (outlined by Richard) now since my last fill Dec. 26th. I won't go into the pros and cons of that approach here (it's been discussed plenty on other threads). As of today, April 4th, I'm beginning to notice an odor that I don't think I've noticed before. The water is and has been clear. I used the Taylor kit and found that I have around 1.5 ppm of Combined Chlorine. Is there a way to get rid of it? I've been shocking once a week with 3 tbs of MPS, but maybe a chlorine shock is in order? (Haven't done that at all). I'll change the water soon anyway, I just wanted to know for future reference what to do when the combined chlorine rises. Thanks, David
  6. Hi, Waterbear, I for one appreciate your opinions on this forum. And I like to study those of other people, too, so let's all just keep it civilized so as to not drive anyone off like the case with Richard. This dichlor vs bleach debate just keeps going, doesn't it Just a couple quick questions: If dichlor causes CYA levels to rise which is not generally a good thing (the increased probability of hot tub itch or worse) And Bleach can lead to high TDS levels, and rising pH levels which constantly need to be monitored and lowered (somehow).. And I don't want to use bromine, What's the best approach? I've been using bleach on this fill, which was done the day after Christmas. So far, I've had nice, clear water, no itching or other issues. I got my Alk levels corrected using ChemGeek's method. But my pH levels always rise. I discovered that by shocking with mps once a week and using at least some mps after each soak, I CAN maintain FC levels, although sometimes not for the whole 24 hours. So, I think my method of adding some bleach each morning is a fairly safe method. By the time I soak typically at 8 or 9pm, I still have some FC levels. Maybe I don't have any FC levels at, say, 4am, but it's going to get a good dose of chlorine around 7:30 am daily. Since I have low CYA levels, I'm thinking it's a very effective kill at that point. I like my method (bleach is also more inexpensive, but a little harder to handle, too), but the only drawbacks are fighting the rising pH and having to make daily additions of bleach. Is there some other, more "trouble free" method? One that doesn't require daily additions or constant monitoring of pH? Even if it costs more that liquid bleach, I might try it. Thanks, David Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I saw insults were none were intended. Many of the people I deal with have become friends over the years, not just business acquaintances. I'm proud to know them on both levels, so was hurt when I thought it was an insult. Again, sorry. I will admit that "non-issue" could be too strong, but the whole "sky is falling" approach is way to drastic as well. Everything I've found does state that the effectiveness of chlorine does go down with high cya levels. Most tests involving chlorine are at .5 fc with 99.99% kill in under 30 seconds. This won't happen with high cya levels which is why spas are supposed to be maintained at 2-5 ppm fc. If I was using dichlor alone, there is no way I'd accept .5 fc. I do not believe that would be safe. I had proof of this when using bleach. Take any bias I have out of the bleach issue. For me, I could not maintain fc with bleach so I ended up with cloudy, smelly water. I'm sure if I used only dichlor and ran .5 fc I would end up with roughly the same situation. I haven't ran into any problems with dichlor if I keep my fc levels up and I don't expect to. The only other point that I'd make is that when getting info. from the cdc and epa it's important to remember they are dealing with public health. The majority of us would have our kitchens shut down if the health inspector came in. That's not to say we aren't clean. We prepare meals and make a plate of leftovers for whoever isn't home and they eat it later. We don't stick a thermometer in it to make sure it's at the correct temperature until they get home. We prepare food for friends and family without wearing gloves or hairnets, etc. Restaurants here can't serve eggs with runny yolks or beef cooked less than medium, but we do it in our homes all the time. When dealing with public health and liability, the stakes are a little higher and the rules a little stricter. No doubt there are states with guidelines for public swimming facilities regarding cya, there are many more with guidelines for TDS. Here, a public pool is shut down if the TDS are too high, but no parameters for cya. I can't remember the exact figures, I'd have to look, but bleach sends TDS through the roof. While someone might want to see me as a champion of dichlor, I'm actually just trying to champion common sense. One can't cause hysteria over cya while ignoring TDS. To be quite honest, I think bromine is the most logical sanitizer for spas. I don't use it because it makes me itch and my skin smells. Even though I don't use it, I think it's a great product.
  7. When did all this go down? What thread was it on? I, too, very much valued Richard's input. Here's hoping he comes back! David
  8. It does seem as though my residual appeared only after I started to regularly use MPS. By regularly, I mean after each soak, once or twice a week lately. Before I started doing that, I would use it only every once in awhile, as a shock, maybe twice a month. Now I'm at the point where I'm trying to deduce if I'm adding the proper amount. You say you add it daily. What time of day, and how much MPS do you add each time? Are you also dosing with chlorine? If so, when do you do that and how much? Finally, what brand of MPS do you use, and how many gallons is your tub? Lots of questions, I know. It does help to "compare notes". FYI, I typically add 2 ounces of MPS after a soak. It is ProTeam Shock. I add 3 to 4 ounces of Clorox Bleach each morning before work, at about 7:30 am...later on weekends. The filtration cycle is usually on when I add it, jets on low speed. Once a week I add Leisure Time Defender and Enzyme. I've also been trying to keep the pH down with an ounce or two of Muriatic Acid when I see the pH get to the upper 7s. That's my "system" right now. Seems to be working (as far as I can tell...water is clear). Thanks! David
  9. Hi Richard, Yes, I did look at the dispenser solutions that are out there. Nothing that works for a spa very well yet... By the way did you notice my other post regarding the fact that I am realizing some residual chlorine now? This is surprising news to me...I had pretty much given up on the idea. If you recall some of our earlier exchanges, I was bemoaning the fact that I would never have any measurable chlorine after, say 10 hours or so. Recently I am noticing residual, up to 5ppm some 24 hours after my dosing. I've actually cut back on the amount of bleach I put in, from 4 to 3 ounces. I would be curious as to what you think might be the reason? If you read my post from yesterday in this thread, you'll get the background, and my suspicion of why I now have some... Regards, David David, What you describe is the primary reason many people use bromine instead of chlorine since slow-dissolving bromine tablets give you at least some continual addition of disinfectant/oxidizer. Regular shocking (with MPS or chlorine) replenishes the bromine. Also, the bromine combined with ammonia/urea from sweat (bromamine) is still a disinfectant and smells different than chloramine (some like it more; others less). The pool industry does have an automatic chlorine dispensing system in The Liquidator, but that's not designed for spas though it wouldn't be hard for someone to scale it down with appropriate dosing rates. Peristaltic pumps are another option. Of course, the most common automated chlorine system in residential pools are saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) systems. Richard
  10. Watersentinal, I didn't intend to come across as upset with your reply. Just the nature of these forums when you can't read a person's voice inflection or facial expressions...and only have the typewritten word to go by, I guess. Are you new to the forum? If so, welcome, and be sure to read the various discussions relating to bleach versus dichlor. There are dozens of pages, hours of reading. You'll get a lot of info regarding both methods, and if you read Richard's and Tinybubbles posts thoroughly I guarantee you'll learn something. You'll get up to speed on what people on this forum perceive to be the pros and cons of each better that way...I won't go into them here. I'm not saying which is right or wrong...the jury's still out for me. At the moment, I'm using bleach, but I can be persuaded to change my mind. By the way, I'm not the only one here who has a hard time maintaining a residual, no matter the chlorine source. It seems maybe a more than once-a-day addition is necessary. I think the spa industry should invent a built-in automatic chlorine dosage unit. Fill the hopper up, and it dispenses a pre-determined amount of chlorine at pre-determined times. Problem solved! David
  11. I'm using Leisure Time test strips, primarily. I have a Taylor kit and have found the Leisure Time strips to be fairly accurate. I'm mainly concerned with free chlorine and that's what I'm testing for. I'm sure that Richard (chemgeek) would beg to differ with you on many points of your reply below. I would just like to point out a couple things, then I'll defer to people who know more about water chemistry than I do. First, why would there NOT be a chlorine smell if there is some amount of chlorine (either dichlor or bleach) in the water? If I'm in a hot tub with 5ppm of free chlorine, I can certainly smell it on my hands and skin upon exiting. What I smelled was not strong, just a hint, and then when I tested the strips showed somewhere between 3 and 5 ppm of free chlorine. Just my observation, that's all. I prefer to NOT have that chlorine smell when I soak, and the couple times I've had guests and I've added a bit a few hours before they arrived to anticipate a higher bather load, they have commented on the chlorine smell...that's unfavorable to me. I'd rather be on the low end of the FC scale when it's time to actually soak. If the FC is at 5ppm at 2pm, and more like 0 to 3 at 8pm when we soak, what could possibly happen in 6 hours that can "hurt" me? As far as bleach not lasting due to the hot temps, well, I'm saying that I DO have a residual now...so it must be lasting. My spa dealer gave me pretty bad advice, that's why I started reading this forum. He told me to put a tablespoon of dichlor in after using the tub, and not to worry about it at all otherwise, then shock once a week. Within 2 weeks of that advice I had terrible, icky water. Following his advice results in a total lack of residual chlorine for the vast majority of the hours in the day and the week. Why would I go back to him and ask him what to do? With what I've learned here and my current method, I at least give it a daily dose of chlorine. If it doesn't have a residual, it's only for a few hours per day until I dose it again in the morning. I also have ozone and the D1 mineral system so they should help during those few hours of low or now residual, right? The rising ph is an issue, and I'm keeping an eye on that and adding muriatic acid when necessary. If I control the ph that way, how can you say that I'll have "a nightmare of scaling in the pipes and equipment"? Is an ounce or two of acid a week to control the ph a "high amount of acid"? What are the negatives of adding acid now and then? Does it contribute to higher TDS? By the way, my alk is staying pretty constant, towards the lower end of what's recommend. And to further clarify an error in your reply below, I'm NOT adding 2 ounces of mps and 4 ounces of bleach each day. I'm adding 3 to 4 ounces of bleach (more like 3 now that I do indeed have residual), and I only add mps after a soak, which right now is once or twice a week. I have been reading all the pros and cons in the posts of this forum of bleach vs. dichlor. I don't see how adding bleach can void my warranty if I keep an eye on the pH issue. Heck, my dealer didn't give me any advice on the pH issue...I even asked him and he said "don't worry about it". I'm more concerned about it than he is. It seems that dealers would certainly like to keep selling dichlor at $12 a bottle instead of allowing their customers to buy Clorox at the grocery store for far less. I may indeed switch back to dichlor, if as you say I'm making my spa care harder than it has to be. Even if I did switch back to dichlor, I would still make daily additions. Maybe the ph would stabilize a bit...giving me one less thing to worry about. I'm only on my second fill of water, so I'm a "newbie" at this. I'm still learning trying to absorb all the information from people on this forum who know far more than I do. If I make a mistake, it will be a temporary one, not years of bad water chemistry to "scale the pipes" or "ruin the shell". I DO know that the first fill and the first 3 months were pretty much a nightmare of trying to get clear water...never really got there. And my water source here is naturally high in pH so I have to fight that battle anyway. I do know more now than I did then, and I could maybe use dichlor again on my next fill and see what happens. My main goal is get to the point where it doesn't take much time or effort to take care of it. Right now, it's not too bad, but I guess it could always be better I have clean, crystal clear water and no-one who has used the tub has complained about a rash or itching or anything...so something must be going right. David David what method are you using to test your chlorine? Are you testing total residual or free chlorine residual? You shouldn't have a chlorine smell in your spa. Don't forget there is mps in your spa that reads in your chlorine test. Bleach makes a poor sanitizer in hot tubs due to the fact that it can't last in the high temperature. Is your spa dealer recommending you run a hot tub without residual chlorine? I don't know anyone in the industry that advocates the use of bleach. Most manufacturers will void your warranty if you use bleach. It raises the ph of your water and leaves behind a nightmare of scale in your pipes and equipment. You are already adding alot to your water with 2 ounces of mps and 4 ounces of bleach each day. If you have to keep adding high levels of acid to lower your ph you are compounding the problem. High levels of total dissolved solids are no better than high levels of cyanuric acid in your spa. Both can lead to decreased sanitizer efficiency but with cya its easier to raise your free chlorine levels a little. Once your water is thick with tds there is no way for your sanitizer to move freely in your water and work the way it needs to. Both of those scenarios are better than having a hot tub without a residual of sanitizer. I have been in the business for over 20 years and I have never had a customer encounter a problem while using dichlor in their spa. Have you asked your dealer about the issue? I don't know of anyone that even suggests that their spa customers test for cya. Bottom line I think you are making your water care harder than it needs to be and jeapordizing your spa. I'm afraid that the cya issue and pseudomonas bacteria issue raised by some is a little like chicken little yelling that the sky is falling. You should be much more concerned with water with no residual sanitizer allowing algae and bacteria to mulitply. Cya or not, if you keep a proper free chlorine level in your spa you will not have a problem with the psuedomonas bacteria. I venture to say that if you never read about the issue of cya here you would be happily adding dichlor to your spa once a day with crystal clear water and no problems. No spa professional would ever allow you to use bleach in your hot tub.
  12. Check this out: I DO now have residual chlorine! Last week when I went to add my typical 3 to 4 ounces of bleach in the morning, I thought I smelled chlorine when I opened the cover. So, I tested, and sure enough, according to the strips, there was about 5ppm. This was very odd for me, because as some of my previous posts have attested, I too have had zero residual chlorine after just a few hours. Every time I tested a day later, there was zero, zilch ppm. I could not keep a residual AT ALL. Unlike Tinybubbles I decided to stick with chlorine. I last changed the water the day after Christmas. Did the dichlor thing for about a week, then turned my attention to trying to get the ph and alk balanced using Richard's method. Alk now is decent, but my ph does seem to like to rise on me...I've decided that I'll just have to add acid every once in awhile. At any rate, my opinion was that I wasn't going to worry about not having a residual 24 hours later. I felt that my method of adding chlorine in the morning (daily) would allow for enough sanitation to keep me safe when I go to soak in the evening. Of course, I might add a bit a few hours before an anticipated heavy usage of the tub by more than one or two persons. Anyway, yesterday and today I had residual chlorine also. SO, why do I have some now, when this has not been my experience to date? What changed? Well, my routine has changed a little in the last 2 or 3 weeks. I now add 2 ounces of mps AFTER each soak (this is based on one or two persons). I've also upped my chlorine dose to closer to 4 ounces each morning, instead of 3. Previously, I was adding mps once a week, maybe, if that. I would add bleach after a soak. Also, because it has been darn cold lately, tub use is down a bit...I would say we've only used it once or twice a week for less than an hour (one or two persons) the last 2 or 3 weeks...pretty light use. Regarding filtration/aeration, my cleaning cycle runs one hour twice a day. The jets run at high speed briefly (just a few minutes) then on low the rest of the time. My tub (D1 Nautilus) doesn't have separate air jets or pumps. Just thought I'd report in...bleach seems to be working for me so far. Very clean water. Adding it in the morning means not a high ppm when I go to soak in the evening, which is fine by me. So, I'm finally getting a "routine" that seems to work. Still quite a bit of work, and I don't even attempt to test daily or every time I add bleach...just not motivated to work at it that much. If the water's clear, and I've added chlorine routinely, and the ph/alk isn't all out of whack, that's good enough for me. David
  13. I refilled my tub the day after Christmas, used Dichlor for a couple weeks and bleach ever since. Also have the Nature 2 mineral, and ozone in my D1 Nautilus. I'm of the opinion that maybe a steady (24 hour) amount of FC isn't necessary as long as I stick to my regimen of a daily chlorine addition. I haven't tested for awhile. The tub's been getting minimal use during our sub-zero temps we've been having for the last couple weeks. I've used it about twice a week. Tonight's test strip showed the pH a bit high, and get this: at 9pm tonight I had about 4 or 5 ppm of FC. This is odd for me, because I add bleach at around 7am each morning. Usually, in a matter of hours, I have no residual. But tonight, it's there. Interesting. I can smell chlorine on my skin, which, if I had my choice, i would prefer to soak in water that doesn't have a "chlorine bite". I haven't worried too much about not having residual. I figure that a daily addition of chlorine is going to kill stuff that needs to be killed. What I have changed lately is that I now add a couple ounces of mps after each soak. I used to just add some more chlorine. Maybe this is resulting in better residual chlorine? I'll definitely have to keep a closer eye on my pH. Once I got it down using chemgeek's method, I haven't watched it very close, so I really don't know if it's been creeping up significantly. I definitely have clean, clear water...no problems I had during my first fill. Those problems might have been to newbie mistakes. On the next fill I might use dichlor exclusively just to see if there's any difference. I would still do a daily addition, though, as I think that a lot of my previous problems were due to the bad advice of my dealer, which was shock once a week and add 1 tbsp of dichlor after each soak. Using that method, there were times where no sanitizer was added for days. Not good. So, I guess my point in all this is this: if you have to do a daily addition, does it really make any difference if you use bleach or dichlor? There's going to be some sanitizing taking place each day (I guess maybe a diminishing effectiveness with dichlor as CYA levels rise, but some sanitizing nonetheless). David
  14. Tiny, I went to a home improvement center (Menard's) and they had a bunch of them to pick from. Started reading the gallons per minute ratings and looking at pricing. Of course I was thinking the bigger and more gallons per minute the better, but then when I looked at them close, I noticed that the larger/faster ones had these knobby feet things on the bottom. This resulted in the bottom of the pump being raised off the bottom surface somewhat, maybe a centimeter (maybe a little less). Made sense I suppose, because the more quickly you try to pump you're going to need a way for the water to get into the pump quicker (more "clearance"). I decided on going with the model that had the most gallons per minute rating that DIDN'T have these little legs, so that the bottom of the pump rests nearly on the bottom of the tub, so that it sucks out the majority of the water. Worked well the first time I used it a few weeks ago. I have a 375 gallon tub, and I think it was drained in about 30 or 40 minutes if I remember correctly. The price was about $45 I think. Hope this helps, David
  15. This whole thread has been really interesting. We've only had our tub for a few months now, but I've been telling people "hey, come on over sometime and try out our new hot tub." Some of them have taken me up on my invitation. They include my business partner and friend of over 20 years, and then the rest have been relatives: my wife's brothers/sisters (and their spouse), and my relatives, a total of 11 different adults, in their 40's, 50's (one niece, Soph in college). All of those people were in it once...one couple has been in it twice. I let them bring their own suits and didn't make a fuss about introducing detergent into the water. I would trust that none of them had any health issue to worry about, and I didn't really notice any "extreme dirtiness" to the water after they soaked. My son has had 3 or 4 of his friends (he's 15) over once, and my daughter had two friends over once (she's 13). So as you can see, to have that number of different people in about 3 or 4 months of use means that it hasn't really gotten a lot of use by different people than me, my wife and my kids. I suppose if we had visitors more frequently the filters and such would need a bit more maintenance and cleaning. But, this thread has changed my mind about inviting people over. We don't have a ton of friends popping over for a visit, nor do we get asked by people to use our hot tub. If we know them well and they ask, we probably will let them, and I'll probably invite all the close relatives at some point, but I don't think all of them will take me up on it. However, I don't think I'll let just anybody in the tub, and I always make sure to dose it pretty high afterwards, and I also add some beforehand if I know it's going to happen. So, thanks for the discussion everyone. I now have some things to say when I do identify a person or two I don't want in my tub Finally, I heard a story from a relative about someone he knew who owned a hot tub. This guy came home to find his 20 something daughter in the hot tub with her boyfriend. He blew a gasket, kicked them out (and not for anything that was going on in the tub , yelling and screaming the whole time of "how dare you use my tub...I don't know where you've been". The next day he drained his tub and changed the water. I don't think I'll go to that extreme. My sanitation practices should ward off just about everything that's out there. But, I don't think I'll be as freely extending invitations, either. It IS sort of a personal thing, and there ARE some health and sanitation issues. David 66
×
×
  • Create New...