Electronic Chemica Dispensers?

[Johnny D]

New to the forum, I am impressed with the knowledge and friendliness of this board. Doing some research on a new spa. The last one we had was about 25 years ago. It was a Cal Spa. I recall always futzing with the test kit and adding checmicals. I was thinking they shoudl have this automated by now but have not seen any discussion when lurking or searhing.

Here is an excerpt from a site that sells equipment. Don't want to be flamed as representing or having any interest in the company so I'll leave their name out of it. I am not connected in any way.

"Operating a swimming pool, spa, or water feature without an automated controller is analgous to operating your home heating system without a thermostat. Constantly turning your furnace on and off manually is unthinkable, yet the majority of swimming pool and spa operators control chemistry in exactly this fashion. Water balance oscilates between "under feed" and "over feed" as operators attempt to maintain chemistry control in conjunction with other work activities. As a consequence unsafe water conditions, chloramine formation, and excessive organic loading are common occurrances."

They have a dispenser for about $1,800. Aside from the money, anyone have experience with something like this?

Thanks in advance

jd

[waterbear]

Automatic dosing controllers are often more work than testing and manually dosing since they need constant attention to keep them running properly. IMHO, they really don't belong on residential spas and pools! They are of value in commercial operations that have a full time staff that maintains them. The one exception I would make to this would be a salt water chlorine generator or a bromine generator. These devices do simplify maintaining proper sanitizer levels but do not relieve you from having to test and adjust other water chemistry parameters and because of the way they work might require more frequent pH adjustments. However, it is a small tradeoff for the convenience factor of always having properly sanitized water!

[104 Degrees]

Automatic dosing controllers are often more work than testing and manually dosing since they need constant attention to keep them running properly. IMHO, they really don't belong on residential spas and pools! They are of value in commercial operations that have a full time staff that maintains them. The one exception I would make to this would be a salt water chlorine generator or a bromine generator. These devices do simplify maintaining proper sanitizer levels but do not relieve you from having to test and adjust other water chemistry parameters and because of the way they work might require more frequent pH adjustments. However, it is a small tradeoff for the convenience factor of always having properly sanitized water!

Waterbear

Not to change the quetion but. Is this kit good for hot tubs, the Taylor K-2005. I figured if the Auto-- dosing is not recommended this could be.

Thank you 104 Degrees--John

[waterbear]

Waterbear

Not to change the quetion but. Is this kit good for hot tubs, the Taylor K-2005. I figured if the Auto-- dosing is not recommended this could be.

Thank you 104 Degrees--John

If you are using chlorine the K-2005 (DPD test for chlorine, uses a color comparator and can bleach out at high sanitizer levels) is ok but the K-2006 (FAS-DPD titration test for chlorine) is much better. Easier to read and much more accurate! (all other tests in the two kits are identical) For Bromine I would get the K-2106 FAS-DPD kit. (same tests as in the chlorine kit except it does not include the CYA test which is not needed with bromine and ,of course, tests bromine levels instead of chlorine)

[Johnny D]

Thanks for your response on the auto chemical dispensor. I visited two HS dealers and asked about the newly announced autom checmical dispenser, think it's called Ever fresh. Neither had any experience with it and said it was a $2,000 option.

OK, now that we're changing the questions slightly. Saw this Cool Pooltester by Pallintest. Per their website..."The Cool Pooltester measures disinfection control and pH electronically, and is an affordable, more accurate alternative to test strips and visual colour blocks. The photometer makes testing of chlorine or bromine levels simple, along with pH and, optionally, alkalinity. Unlike conventional systems, results are not dependant on personal visual judgement or lighting conditions

Full details here: Pallintest Website

[waterbear]

Thanks for your response on the auto chemical dispensor. I visited two HS dealers and asked about the newly announced autom checmical dispenser, think it's called Ever fresh. Neither had any experience with it and said it was a $2,000 option.

OK, now that we're changing the questions slightly. Saw this Cool Pooltester by Pallintest. Per their website..."The Cool Pooltester measures disinfection control and pH electronically, and is an affordable, more accurate alternative to test strips and visual colour blocks. The photometer makes testing of chlorine or bromine levels simple, along with pH and, optionally, alkalinity. Unlike conventional systems, results are not dependant on personal visual judgement or lighting conditions

Full details here: Pallintest Website

colorimeters are nothing new and can be useful for testing if one has trouble differentiating the colors in comparator blocks. However, with any electronic test equipment I would have to give you the catuion that you get what you pay for. Professional colorimeters from such companies as Pallintest, LaMotte, and Hach are very expensive with good ones starting at several hundred dollars into the thousands. I am not that familiar with the unit in question but LaMotte has had similar units for a while now.It comes with Pool Professor software. Pool software, even the professional versions that are used in pool stores, can help you determine dosing BUT it can't think for you! You still have to undersand water maintenance or you can get into trouble. I have seen software recommend adding calcium and increasing total alkalinit at the same time with NO caution to adjust the TA first and then add the cacium. If you don't you could end up with cloudy water. If you don't enter accurate gallonage of your water the dosing recommendations will be off. The tester might be useful for measuring sanitizer (it uses the DPD test) but this test can bleach out if your sanitizer is at shock levels leaving you to believe that you have no sanitizer! The FAS-DPD titration (drop counting)test is much more accurate and easier to do since it depends on the test sample changing color from red to colorless and even colorblind people are able to do the test. The pH test is an easy one to read for most people. The color changes are faily distinct so, with a little bit of practice anyone can get good results, unless you are colorblind. The total alkalinity test is also a drop count test (titration) with a color change from green to red or blue to yellow, depending on whos test you have and is very easy to read. This tester does not include tests for calcium hardness (another titration test) nor Cyanuric acid, if you are sanitizing with chlorine. It is a necesssary test for a chlorine system. This test is one that a colorimeter would be of value since it is a turbidity test (how cloudy the water gets when mixed with the reagent) that is usually done by adding your water/reagent mixture to a tube with a black dot in the bottom until you can't see the black dot and then reading the level of the water against the scale on the side of the tube to get your cyanuric acid level. The omitting of this test is a serious downside to this meter, IMHO.

LaMotte hasan identical tester that WILL also test CYA (or alkalinity if you get the other model). It does not come with the software, which IMHO is really not that useful, You will still need a titration test for alkalinity. Also this tester will only test up to 5 ppm sanitizer which does you no good when you shock. Once again the FAS-DPD test is what you need here. I would still recommed the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the Taylor K-2106 for bromine for a complete, easy to use test kit that includes a book on water chemistry with dosing tables in it.

[Johnny D]

Thanks waterbear, appreciate our insight. Will cross colorimeters off my list. (save them for calibrating my monitor for photo editing)

Is the book that it comes with the Taylor kit sufficient to get me up to speed on undertanding what I am doing and how to maintain the spa or are there other resources you'd recommend to learn?

With the different methods I have read about, Im a bit confused as to what to use to maintain the spa once I get it. Can you comment on these? I plan on having an ozonator in the spa.

Bromine:

Chlorine:(granular dichlor)

Clearwater Blue:

Nature2:

Baqua Spa:

Spa Secret:

Aqua FInesse:

EverFresh:

SoftSoak:

Thanks so much for your time. Maybe this could be a sticky or FAQ??

jd

[104 Degrees]

If you are using chlorine the K-2005 (DPD test for chlorine, uses a color comparator and can bleach out at high sanitizer levels) is ok but the K-2006 (FAS-DPD titration test for chlorine) is much better. Easier to read and much more accurate! (all other tests in the two kits are identical) For Bromine I would get the K-2106 FAS-DPD kit. (same tests as in the chlorine kit except it does not include the CYA test which is not needed with bromine and ,of course, tests bromine levels instead of chlorine)

Thanks waterbear!! i just ordered it.

[waterbear]

Thanks waterbear, appreciate our insight. Will cross colorimeters off my list. (save them for calibrating my monitor for photo editing)

Is the book that it comes with the Taylor kit sufficient to get me up to speed on undertanding what I am doing and how to maintain the spa or are there other resources you'd recommend to learn?

With the different methods I have read about, Im a bit confused as to what to use to maintain the spa once I get it. Can you comment on these? I plan on having an ozonator in the spa.

Bromine:

Ozonator will work with bromine to maintain your bromine levels since bromine is an oxidizer. It can form bromates in your water which are believed to be carcinogenic in drinking water. IMHO, the best choice with an ozonator. Bromine is a known sensitizer and some people are allergic to it. Does not require as much attention as chlorine once it is set up and ajusted.

Chlorine:(granular dichlor)

Biggst drawback to dichlor is that it will add stabilzer to your water. Some state healt departments have outlaws stabilizer (cyanuric acid) in commercial spas because when it builds up too high it reduced the sanitizing ability of the chlorine. If the spa is exposed to sunlight you do need some to keep the clorine from burning off quickly in the sunlight. You can use unstabilized chlorine (cal hypo, lithium hypochorite, or sodium hypochorite). My preferance is for sodium hypo chlorite, also called liquuid chlorine or laundry bleach. Ozone and chlorine tend to destroy each other but with proper adjustment do work well together. Chlorine is my first choice because of it's ease of use, it's good sanitizing ability, and it's low cost.

Clearwater Blue:

NOT A PRIMARY SANITIZER. It is copper sulfate. Can cause staining of your spa and can stain people (Green hair is from copper!) IT still requires the use of chlorine (and resent research in pathogen kill times indicate that reduced levels of chlorine with a copper or copper/silver system do NOT provice proper sanitation. IMHO, not worth it.

Nature2:

Not a primary sanitizer. Needs to be used with chlorine. The chlorine levels are about the same as a spa without the Nature2 (as per the new instructions in 2006). It is a copper/silver system. Copper is an algaecide and silver a bacteriostat. Both have very slow kill times which is why you need the residual chlorine in the spa. IMHO, not worth it.

Baqua Spa:

This is the other EPA approved sanitizer (different from just having an EPA registration number!). Biguanide (PHMB) is your sanitizer and hydrogen peroxide is your oxidizer. Bigaunide can attach some plastics used in spas. It will require much more frequent filter cleanings and replacement because it causes bacteria to explode instead of burning them up. The peroxide is supposed to take care of that. It does not kill algae and is prone to white water mold and pink slime. It is the most expensive system you can use and you have to be careful that any chemicals that you use with it are compatible with it. Many are not and can make a mess of your water if you add them. It is a good choice for those with a true chemical sensitivity to chlorine and bromine.

Spa Secret:

A propriatary enzyme that still needs to be used with chlorine if you read their website carefully!

Aqua FInesse:

See spa secret.

EverFresh:

NOt familialr with this one. I believe it's a Hotsprings exclusive that is an ozonator and a silver ionizer. Silver is NOT a stand alone stanitizer and neither is ozone. Silver has very slow kill times and ozone has no residual in the water.

SoftSoak:

Biguanide and perxoide. Just a different manufacturer than Baquaspa.

Thanks so much for your time. Maybe this could be a sticky or FAQ??

jd

There are only 3 epa approved stand alone stanitizers. Chlorine, Bromine, and Biguanide. Everything else is an add on product (or snake oil with miraculous claims and the ingredients a secret!). Some, such as ozone, have proven their worth. Others just drain your wallet.

[Johnny D]

There are only 3 epa approved stand alone stanitizers. Chlorine, Bromine, and Biguanide. Everything else is an add on product (or snake oil with miraculous claims and the ingredients a secret!). Some, such as ozone, have proven their worth. Others just drain your wallet.

Thank you Waterbear for clearing up my confusion. Seems that websites or dealers may have their own agenda.

I am coming to the conclusion that chlorine is your preferred sanitizer. If I understand you correctly, dichlor is stabilized chlorine and over time the stabilization quality of it will reduce the effectiveness of the chlorine thereby requiring more chlorine? So, you use liquid bleach as your stabilizer as it kills bacteria and pathogens quickly. Regular laundry bleach? I would need to monitor closely the cholrine level to make sure nothing grows in there and to make sure I don't have too much as it will smell and could irritate people. That's where the Taylor test kit comes in. Do I have this correct so far?

Is it true that bleach also reduces filter life?

From a website:... "When you add chlorine to the water, you are adding Free Chlorine. When the Free Chlorine reacts with contaminants such as oils, bacteria and other organics, it becomes combined chlorine, or chloramines. Unlike combined bromine, combined chlorine has little sanitizing ability, and no oxidizing ability. Chloramines also have an irritating odor. Combined chlorine is like a spent bullet. Chloramines have a harsh odor, and can cause red eyes and irritation. (You'll have less chance of these problems if using bromine)"

The carcinogenic potential of Bromise scares teh **** out of me though!

Now, I need to maintain the proper Ph so that would be with Borax on one end and what on the other? I assume the gol to keep it within a certain range?

What other chemicals and tests do I need to keep the spa in good shape? I read draining and refilling every 3-4 months is advisable.

So far your explanations are simplifying it for me.

Thanks!

jd

[waterbear]

Thank you Waterbear for clearing up my confusion. Seems that websites or dealers may have their own agenda.

I am coming to the conclusion that chlorine is your preferred sanitizer.

For ease of use, yes, but it does require more monitoring of your water. Bromine is a bit more forgiving. I have used both in my own spas in the past with good results. If I understand you correctly, dichlor is stabilized chlorine and over time the stabilization quality of it will reduce the effectiveness of the chlorine thereby requiring more chlorine?

Correct, if your stabilizer is high you will require more free chlorine to maintain the same level of sanitizing ability. Stabilzier levels can rise very quickly when using dichlor since it will add stabilizer every time you use it. (For each 1 ppm of Free Chlorine it adds it also adds .9 ppm cyanuric acid or stabilizer.)

So, you use liquid bleach as your stabilizer

No, bleach or liquid chlorine is just one choice of unstabilized chlorine. (Stabilizer is a different chemical, cyanuric acid. ) There is also lithium hypochlorite (very expensive but fast dissolving and does not have a major impact on water chemisty same as the liquid) and Calcium hypochlorite (which is what HTH sells as spa chlorinator and spa shock, it will raise your calcium levels, which may or may not be an issue. It is slow dissolving and somtimes causes cloudy water.)

as it kills bacteria and pathogens quickly. Regular laundry bleach?

Yes, it's sodium hypochlorite, same as liquid chlorine from the pool store or dealer. Pool store chlorine is commomly either 12.5%, 10%, or 6% in strength, Laundry bleach is 6% for the Ultra strength and 5.25% for the regular strengh but some of the cheapie bleaches are only 3% or don't list how strong they are. This is where testing comes in. You just want enough to maintain a free chlorine level of 3-6 ppm and you want to shock to about 12 ppm when combined chlorine is present. Shocking gets rid of combined chlorine. You can use the spa as long as your Free chlorine is below 10 ppm and your combined chlorine is below .5 ppm (but 0 ppm Combined chlorine is what you want!)

I would need to monitor closely the cholrine level to make sure nothing grows in there and to make sure I don't have too much as it will smell and could irritate people. That's where the Taylor test kit comes in. Do I have this correct so far?

Yes, It's actually not that different for bromine. You still have to test and monitor your water. Maybe not quite as often once everything is adjusted and holding but it's pretty much the same

Is it true that bleach also reduces filter life?

Not in my experience. All forms of chlorine form hypochlorous acid, your active sanitizer, when they are put in the water. The unstablized forms of chlorine will have less impact on your total alkalinity and pH then dichlor will.

From a website:... "When you add chlorine to the water, you are adding Free Chlorine. When the Free Chlorine reacts with contaminants such as oils, bacteria and other organics, it becomes combined chlorine, or chloramines. Unlike combined bromine, combined chlorine has little sanitizing ability, and no oxidizing ability. Chloramines also have an irritating odor. Combined chlorine is like a spent bullet. Chloramines have a harsh odor, and can cause red eyes and irritation. (You'll have less chance of these problems if using bromine)"

Yes and no, a chlorine system is shocked (chlorine levels are raised) to break down the cloramines and burn off the organics in the water. If you smell chlorine you need to add more! Also, shock is a verb, not a noun. It's something you do to the water, not a special product you add! It is said that bromamines are effective sanitizers but some of the byproducts that build up in a bromine system, especially a bromine system that is using tablets, are suspected of creating problems. the dimethylhydantion found in the bromine tablets create their own problems when they build up in the water. There is no perfect sanitizer. Each one has it's pros and cons. Bromine is a bit easier to maintain the sanitizer level but many people do not like the strong chemical smell it has, it is, IMHO, harsher on the skin, and many people are allergic to it. Bromine still needs to be shocked (chlorine or non chlorine shock--MPS added) weekly to raise the bromine levels above 10 ppm to burn off organics in the water and reactivate the bromide reserves that has been spent. Once again you can get back in the spa when the bromine is below 10 ppm If you use chlorine for shocking it converts the bromide in the water into hypobromous acid alsmost instanly and there is no chlorine left. IMHO, there is no advantage to shocking with MPS. This chemical will lower pH and adds sulfates to the water. Bromine tablets do contain chlorine BTW. It's necessary for them to function. (There is one on the market that contains MPS instead but IMHO this is just marketing..."Chlorine is bad and our product doesn't contain any!" You get the idea.

The carcinogenic potential of Bromise scares teh **** out of me though!

Ozone will cause chlorates to form in a chlorine system. Chlorates are also not a desirable byproduct. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water and this concern comes from water treatment facilities that use ozone. You are not drinking the spa water.

Now, I need to maintain the proper Ph so that would be with Borax on one end and what on the other? I assume the gol to keep it within a certain range?

Sodium bisulfate which your dealer sells under such names as dry acid, pH down, pH minus, pH decreaser, or a similar name. I would not recommend using muriatic acid in a spa for pH control only for the fact that you would need to measure it out by the teaspoon for the small amount of water that is found in a spa and I would not like to try and measure that small a quantity of it!

What other chemicals and tests do I need to keep the spa in good shape? I read draining and refilling every 3-4 months is advisable.

Baking soda to raise total alkalinity. Bromine tabs and dichlor are mildly acidic, as are the body oils and sweat from people in the spa so you will have to do this from time to time. I like to keep the TA between 100-120 for bromine and dichlor and between 80-100 for unstabilized forms of chlorine.

Calcium hardness increaser (calcium chloride) if your fill water has a calcium hardness below about 130 ppm for an acrylic spa or about 150 ppm for a fiberglass spa. If you have a gunite or plaster spa maintain your calcium between 200-400 ppm.

If you use well water to fill or you know there are metals in your water you will also need a metal sequsterant

If your fill water has a very high calcium hardness, above about 500 ppm, then you might benefit from a scale inhibitor.

As for algaecides, defoamers, clarifiers, etc., they might be useful in very rare special cases but problems such as foaming or cloudy water usually indicate improper water care. These products do not solve the problem, only cover it up...for an analogy let's say your dog messes on the rug. You can clean up the mess or you can spray it with a deoderizer. The deoderizer will cover up the smell for a while but that mess is still on your rug! It has not gone away.

So far your explanations are simplifying it for me.

Thanks!

jd

You are quite welcome

[104 Degrees]

You are quite welcome

Waterbear

So will the taylor test kit 2006 show me the correct leavel of "Cyanuric acid" in the tub so i can add more dichlor?

John

[waterbear]

Waterbear

So will the taylor test kit 2006 show me the correct leavel of "Cyanuric acid" in the tub so i can add more dichlor?

John

The K-2006 test for FC, CC, pH (with acid and base demand tests), TA, Cal, and CYA (cyanuric acid) from 30 ppm to 100 ppm. Some state health departments now don't allow any CYA in commercial spas. If your spa is exposed to sunlight you might want some CYA in there, Perhaps no more than 20 ppm (30 max) and run your FC between 4ppm -8ppm to compensate for the CYA.

[104 Degrees]

The K-2006 test for FC, CC, pH (with acid and base demand tests), TA, Cal, and CYA (cyanuric acid) from 30 ppm to 100 ppm. Some state health departments now don't allow any CYA in commercial spas. If your spa is exposed to sunlight you might want some CYA in there, Perhaps no more than 20 ppm (30 max) and run your FC between 4ppm -8ppm to compensate for the CYA.

In simple terms Will it show me the amount in the tub? my tub now is not under the deck like before, but i use it at night mostly. does this make a difference.

John

[waterbear]

In simple terms Will it show me the amount in the tub? my tub now is not under the deck like before, but i use it at night mostly. does this make a difference.

John

If the tub gets no sunlight then you might be better off with NO CYA at all and not use dichlor but just an ustabilizedd form of chlorine. The taylor kit will tell you the levels of everything in your tub that you need to check (except for metal if you have them, you will need to get kits to test for them separately)